Could Michael Savage be a Deist?

[Hardenbergh]

I found this website this morning when I was searching for information about deism. I heard "The Savage Nation" last night and I heard Michael Savage say that he believed that God is omnipresent but not omnipotent, that he didn't think that God was controlling everything because of all the suffering in the world. To me, that sounds a lot like deism from the description in this quote:


Deism, as we define it, is a belief in a loving creator, an ultimate, eternal being, who is omnipresent and omniscient and perfectly good, but not omnipotent. This definition, with important qualifications, has substantial basis in philosophical history, despite the all-too widespread impression that the deistic creator is indifferent to its creation. The popular analogy for the deistic god is a supernatural watchmaker who may for all we know be fascinated by its handiwork, but is definitely not emotionally involved.

That analogy, however, is a simplistic historical caricature. It has been truly said that history is written by the victors. This is clearly the case with deism, since the popular notion of what it means has been disseminated in a culture dominated by the Christian religion. Let us attempt to set the record straight here. Contrary to popular Christian propaganda, ultimate reality ("god" if you prefer) as conceived by deism is not impersonal at all, merely non-omnipotent, hence non-controlling, and thus not in a position to provide people with the miracles on demand for which they so often yearn.
Deism and America (http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/deist1999/)

I also found an article by Andrew Wright titled Types of Theism, Varieties of Atheism:

Types of Theism, Varieties of Atheism (http://www.dialogue.org.uk/typesoftheism.pdf)

[Iacchus]

Or, what if God was non-controlling because He so chooses to be non-controlling? If, in fact God created the Universe, you don't think He could obliterate it in an instant? Also note the fact that non-controlling implies an "allowance" for free will.

[RandFan]

Could be why is it important?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by RandFan
Could be why is it important? If God were in fact the Creator, you don't think it would be wise to try and understand His position? Otherwise, who or what do we blame for our suffering? Or, as some say, how could we even believe in a being that allows for suffering to exist?

[cyborg]

Originally posted by Iacchus
[B]Or, what if God was non-controlling because He so chooses to be non-controlling?

Would non-controlling not include manifesting as a man in order to specifically influence humans?

[Z]

Why does everyone think God has to be omnibenevolent, anyway? If God is to us as we are to the Sims, for example - who's to say He isn't putting us in various cruel situations for his own amusement?

[cyborg]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
Why does everyone think God has to be omnibenevolent,

I don't. I fail to see why that would be a necessary quality for a god. Infact I'd happily argue that the Christian god is not. However Christians are pretty lost without that quality since they're effectively admitting they're just worshipping a tyrant who can do whatever, whenever and be as badass as he wants.

[Iacchus]

Or, to be quite blunt, pain is probably the best teacher that there is. Where is the wisdom, without the pain?

[cyborg]

Or, to be quite blunt, pain is probably the best teacher that there is. Where is the wisdom, without the pain?

Indeed. I often find it helpful to beat a llama whilst I'm reading a C++ reference manual as it helps increase my overall C++ wisdom.

What, you mean I have to experience the pain? Screw that.

Other than that have you got any evidence for this tautology? Or do you just go around punching people to increase their wisdow and leave that as evidence?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Iacchus
If God were in fact the Creator, you don't think it would be wise to try and understand His position? Otherwise, who or what do we blame for our suffering? Or, as some say, how could we even believe in a being that allows for suffering to exist? What on earth does this have to do with whether or not Michael Savage is a Deist or not?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
Why does everyone think God has to be omnibenevolent, anyway? If God is to us as we are to the Sims, for example - who's to say He isn't putting us in various cruel situations for his own amusement? I'm here to say that if there is a God that is exactly what he is doing. If there were a god then he hates poor people and he hates stupid people, and he hates ugly people and he really gets off watching them suffer. If your ugly but smart and or rich he doesn't hate you as much and might give you a break or two.

Gods blessings have more to do with your status than anything else. And if you are ugly, dumb and poor then look out because you are going to have a crappy life no matter how much you go to church and are obedient to his "will". Ah but gods plan is mysterious and he rewards in his own way. Hugh Heffner is going to get his comeuppance some day just you wait and see.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by RandFan
What on earth does this have to do with whether or not Michael Savage is a Deist or not? Because it might have something to do with whether God is omnipotent or not ... i.e., according to what "Michael Savage" had to say.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Because it might have something to do with whether God is omnipotent or not ... i.e., according to what "Michael Savage" had to say. Who cares what Michael Savage has to say about God? My tax accountant has an opinion about God and omnipotence also. Is his opinion relevant?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by RandFan
Who cares what Michael Savage has to say about God? My tax accountant has an opinion about God and omnipotence also. Is his opinion relevant? So, which part about what Michael Savage "had to say" would you like to discuss then?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Iacchus
So, which part about what Michael Savage "had to say" would you like to discuss then? I don't know, why would I want to discuss any of the parts? Michael Savage is a political commentator. Is there a reason why his opinion about religion, spirituality or god is important? I think the guy is a PhD but is he known for his philosophical thinking?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by RandFan
I don't know, why would I want to discuss any of the parts? Michael Savage is a political commentator. Is there a reason why his opinion about religion, spirituality or god is important? I think the guy is a PhD but is he known for his philosophical thinking? If you don't particularly care how Michael Savage "thinks," then why don't you direct this towards the person who started this thread? Did you happen to notice that my first post wasn't particularly directed towards how Michael Savage "thinks" either? At least I managed to try and salvage something out of what was being said anyway. ;)

[Hardenbergh]

Originally posted by Iacchus
If you don't particularly care how Michael Savage "thinks," then why don't you direct this towards the person who started this thread? Did you happen to notice that my first post wasn't particularly directed towards how Michael Savage "thinks" either? At least I managed to try and salvage something out of what was being said anyway. ;)

Salvage something? Thanks a lot, Iacchus.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Hardenbergh
Salvage something? Thanks a lot, Iacchus. Holy mackerel! Did somebody just slap me in the face with a fish? Sorry. :D

[Iacchus]

Hey Hardenbergh, I see that you've posted your 312th post. It's a great number. It signifies the door which opens unto heaven. So, what's this about The Three Word Story? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1871044384#post1871044384)

[DarkMagician]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
Why does everyone think God has to be omnibenevolent, anyway? If God is to us as we are to the Sims, for example - who's to say He isn't putting us in various cruel situations for his own amusement? Yeah, except the ladder trick doesn't work here. Dammit!

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by RandFan
I'm here to say that if there is a God that is exactly what he is doing. If there were a god then he hates poor people and he hates stupid people, and he hates ugly people and he really gets off watching them suffer. If your ugly but smart and or rich he doesn't hate you as much and might give you a break or two.

Gods blessings have more to do with your status than anything else. And if you are ugly, dumb and poor then look out because you are going to have a crappy life no matter how much you go to church and are obedient to his "will". Ah but gods plan is mysterious and he rewards in his own way. Hugh Heffner is going to get his comeuppance some day just you wait and see. In other words you're just griping about the way things are in general.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Iacchus
If you don't particularly care how Michael Savage "thinks," then why don't you direct this towards the person who started this thread? I did, you for some reason responded to my question.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Iacchus
In other words you're just griping about the way things are in general. No, not at all. I'm saying very specifically that if there is a god he really sucks. He hates people because of there circumstances. Caligula, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, these all pale in comparison. Look at what he did in New Orleans. He could have weekend the storm and saved lives but he chose not to and caused suffering on a scope so great that neither you and I could ever fully comprehend. And this is just one small example of gods tender mercy. There was the tsunami and recent earthquakes like the one in turkey that killed 13,000 people. But then who is keeping score? See The Most Deadly 100 Natural Disasters of the 20TH Century (http://www.disastercenter.com/disaster/TOP100K.html) That god sure knows how to have a good time at the expense of his subjects.

[Iacchus]

Whatever floats your boat. ;)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by RandFan
I did, you for some reason responded to my question. Could you specifically show me where? I just went back and looked through all of the posts and I'm afraid I don't see it. It's too bad, because I didn't wish to offend Hardenberg by what I said about the original post. I just figured we could talk about all the controversy surrounding Michael Savage, and what an idiot some of us might think he is or, we could talk about suffering in reference to Deism. I chose the latter, while apparently you chose the former.

[Iacchus]

Okay, I take it back. Your first post could have just as easily been directed towards Hardenberg. However, since it didn't specifically mention Hardenberg's post, or mine, albeit it was directly below mine, I thought you were responding to me. It's an easy mistake to make. Sorry.

[Humphreys]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Or, to be quite blunt, pain is probably the best teacher that there is. Where is the wisdom, without the pain?

Who made things that way?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Humphreys
Who made things that way? Who? ... Or what? Well, it seems like people are prone to gripe about it either way. While it's funny, because there are people who claim they don't believe in God, yet it almost sounds like they use it as an excuse to get mad at Him. Hmm ... Hence they say, "How could a God do such horrible things?" And yet would it really matter? What makes it so horrible in other words? Of course if there were no God, would they have anyone to blame? In which case I say this is not a very good argument against God, or suffering.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Who? ... Or what? Well, it seems like people are prone to gripe about it either way. So if you are injured in an accident and find out it was caused by the malice of another the fact that you might gripe about it anyway removes the responsibility from the perpetrator?

While it's funny, because there are people who claim they don't believe in God, yet it almost sounds like they use it as an excuse to get mad at Him. Not really, we are pointing out how ludicrous it is to believe that a god would bless people by moving a hurricane to the east sparing some people but killing others. We are saying that IF there were a god there would be every justifiable reason to condemn him for being so malicious and so evil.

"How could a God do such horrible things?" And yet would it really matter? If my family dies because of an accident then it is simply a tragedy. If my family dies because it suited someone's need or desire to kill them then it is far beyond a tragedy. It is evil.

What makes it so horrible in other words? That it is willful. If I slip and injure you and it is an accident then it is not evil and though it is bad it is not purposeful. If I intentionally injure you for my own purpose then it is malicious and evil and I deserve a punishment.

Of course if there were no God, would they have anyone to blame? In which case I say this is not a very good argument against God, or suffering. Really bad argument. One may just as well argue that murderer need not be punished because society is just looking for someone to blame. If the victim had died as the result of an accident we might still want someone to blame.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by RandFan
So if you are injured in an accident and find out it was caused by the malice of another the fact that you might gripe about it anyway removes the responsibility from the perpetrator?Malice? What is malice? Do you even have a basis for believing such a thing exists?

Not really, we are pointing out how ludicrous it is to believe that a god would bless people by moving a hurricane to the east sparing some people but killing others. We are saying that IF there were a god there would be every justifiable reason to condemn him for being so malicious and so evil.All of which means nothing if God doesn't exist.

If my family dies because of an accident then it is simply a tragedy. If my family dies because it suited someone's need or desire to kill them then it is far beyond a tragedy. It is evil.Evil? What is evil? Are you suggesting evil was inherently designed into the Universe, with or without a God?

That it is willful. If I slip and injure you and it is an accident then it is not evil and though it is bad it is not purposeful. If I intentionally injure you for my own purpose then it is malicious and evil and I deserve a punishment.Willfull? Who's to say what is willful and what is not willful? What is it based upon, the mere illusion that we exist?

Really bad argument. One may just as well argue that murderer need not be punished because society is just looking for someone to blame. If the victim had died as the result of an accident we might still want someone to blame. Murder? What is murder? Again, what gives you the right to judge?

If the Universe came into existence arbitrarily, without any kind of proper direction, you have no basis to speak of any such things.