The Holocaust / Michael Shermer accused of fraud

[Rolfe]

Thanks for the photos, RandFan. Stomach-churming, but we must never forget.from Ashles
Flight 77

There is no evidence that the aircraft that hit the Pentagon was Flight 77. ....

The World Trade Center Towers

Explosives were placed in both towers before the attack to cause the towers to
disintegrate into dust.Sigh. I was just thinking that this Treblinka stuff was about as sensible as denying that there was an attack on the World Trade Center on the grounds that there is now no sign of these two whacking great skyscrapers, or two large airliners, or upwards of 2,500 bodies on the site.... I mean, surely, if any of that had happened, you'd be able to show me scientific evidence, right there on the site, right now.

No?

And then we discover that things are heading that way with that incident as well, and surprise, surprise, it seems as it if is the usual suspects once more.

Why are these people like that?

Why are these people....?

Rolfe.

[Mid]

Originally posted by Ashles
Always nice to meet a fellow Blackadder fan. :)

(And frankly any excuse to lighten the tone in a thread which has contained a couple of very unpleasant posters).

I find that Blackadder references are handy for so many different situations :D

Frankly I'm also glad that the levity seems to have driven nicnac away, s/he was most unpleasant although it was instructive (in a creepy sense) to meet a Holocaust denier

[nicnac]

I don't see an elephant in my basement. Therefore, I don't believe thatt there is an elephant in my basement. But wait!. A J.R.E.F.P.S. just showed me a picture of an elephant. Therefore, I must concede that the evidence is overwhelming and there is in fact an elephant in my basement.

The more you claim that the evidence is overwhelming, the more you make yourselves look foolish for not being able to explain why no one can locate even one of the huge mass graves. And you really make yourselves look like idiots when you refuse to acknowledge that at Belzec, the Archaeologist Kola and the criminologist O'Neil located 33 mass graves and concluded that they do in fact contain the remains of 600,000 people (or more). If they can locate and confirm the mass graves and the existance and number of remains at Belzec, then why can't they do it at Treblinka? If the existance of the mass graves of Treblinka are as obvious as the existance of the moon, could you please show me whree these alleged huge mass graves are? How about just one of them?

[nicnac]

Everyone knows there is no such thing as the perfect crime. At every CRIME SCENE, evidence is LEFT BEHIND. Except of course, at the alleged Treblinka “pure extermination center.� The Nazis allegedly, not only committed the perfect crime, but also did it while allegedly murdering 870,000 Jews! But then again, those evil geniuses did figure out a way to turn Jews into bars of soap. Oh wait, never mind – that was an OUTRAGEOUS LIE also. I can understand a toddler believing he’s made himself invisible while playing peek-a-boo by covering his eyes. But how do you explain the insanity of the holocaust “scholars� believing that a layer of soil can make millions of pounds of evidence *magically* disappear? Was David Copperfield on the Nazi payroll? This is what happens when pseudo-intellectuals become so invested in an idea. After a while, even honest mistakes have to be sustained by ignoring and eventually falsifying the facts. They convince themselves that not only are they right; they arrogantly believe that they can’t be wrong. They refuse to examine the most glaringly OBVIOUS OBSURDITIES that are at the very foundation of their beliefs. They hide behind a condescending, self-righteous psychological wall of infallibility. They deceive themselves into believing that the people who point out to them the absurdities of their beliefs are “denying reality.�

[nicnac]

Nothing in the world could be easier to prove than the alleged Treblinka holocaust! If all the time, money and effort that’s gone into the harassing, arresting, fining and imprisoning of the holocaust heretics went into locating the alleged “mass graves of Treblinka,� this issue would have been settled years ago. That is of course, if there ARE any “mass graves of Treblinka.� Why do you think the court historians would rather send people to prison for not believing their nonsensical manufactured history than actually locating the alleged “huge mass graves?� Especially, when they found them, they could literally rub the nonbeliever’s noses in it. Why do you think the holocaust scholars incessantly lie about the Treblinka holocaust being a “proven historical fact,� shriek “holocaust denier� at, and REFUSE TO DEBATE anyone with the intelligence and courage to call them on this ridiculous tall tale? Why do you think they never use the phraseology - scientifically proven or forensically proven fact? If you have an ounce of gray matter and an iota of integrity, then you should know exactly what the answer is to these questions.

[nicnac]

RECAP – The alleged “pure extermination center,� Treblinka II, is best understood when looked at as - A HOLOCAUST WITHIN THE HOLOCAUST. No matter what anyone thinks about the holocaust in general, one thing is eminently clear – THE TREBLINKA HOLOCAUST IS AN UNTENABLE FRAUD. To believe that the Nazis could OBLITERATE ALL EVIDENCE of the murder of 870,000 Jews requires incredible gullibility and a lack of intelligence, logic and critical thinking skills. It requires a belief in *magic* and a rejection of criminology, archaeology and forensic science. IF there was a Treblinka holocaust, THEN THERE ARE MASS GRAVES FILLED WITH MILLIONS OF POUNDS OF CRUSHED BONE & ASH TO PROVE IT!

[Ducky]

Welcome back nicnac.

Care to respond to any of the comments I made, or are you just blindly posting your drivel again?

[Metullus]

Hey, nicnac, how was your weekend?

Many here have responded to your questions, yet you do not seem either willing or able to add to the discussion. If you wish to debate the facts with us by all means do so - but I must confess that I am coming to the opinion that you are not capable of entering into any sort of intelligent debate and so I expect little from you in this regard.

So, nicnac, will you do us the courtesy of responding, in a civil and intelligent manner, to our various points and comments? Or am I correect in my assessment of your capabilities?

[nicnac]

Do you admit that nobody has been able to locate the mass graves of Treblinka and no JREF pseudoskeptic can explain why?
No graves = No Treblinka Holocaust
Revisionists - 1, JREF pseudoskeptics - 0

[nicnac]

Do you admit that nobody has been able to locate the mass graves of Treblinka and no JREF pseudoskeptic can explain why?
I'll make it incredibly simple for you:

Type Y for "Yes".

Type N for "No".

One keystroke. That's all it takes.

[Ducky]

Originally posted by nicnac
Do you admit that nobody has been able to locate the mass graves of Treblinka and no JREF pseudoskeptic can explain why?
No graves = No Treblinka Holocaust
Revisionists - 1, JREF pseudoskeptics - 0


Apparently you have no interest in the moutnain of evidence that has been offered to you, including the pictures of mass graves given by randfan.

Do you admit your logic is a false dillemma, and that your argument is focused on one portion of evidence while you exclude everything else given for consideration?

[treble_head]

anyone got any recipies? I have kitty pictures!

[nicnac]

What are you, retarded? The pictures are not of Treblinka!
The more you claim that the evidence is overwhelming, the more you make yourselves look foolish for not being able to explain why no one can locate even one of the huge mass graves. And you really make yourselves look like idiots when you refuse to acknowledge that at Belzec, the Archaeologist Kola and the criminologist O'Neil located 33 mass graves and concluded that they do in fact contain the remains of 600,000 people (or more). If they can locate and confirm the mass graves and the existance and number of remains at Belzec, then why can't they do it at Treblinka? If the existance of the mass graves of Treblinka are as obvious as the existance of the moon, could you please show me whree these alleged huge mass graves are? How about just one of them?
RECAP – The alleged “pure extermination center,� Treblinka II, is best understood when looked at as - A HOLOCAUST WITHIN THE HOLOCAUST. No matter what anyone thinks about the holocaust in general, one thing is eminently clear – THE TREBLINKA HOLOCAUST IS AN UNTENABLE FRAUD. To believe that the Nazis could OBLITERATE ALL EVIDENCE of the murder of 870,000 Jews requires incredible gullibility and a lack of intelligence, logic and critical thinking skills. It requires a belief in *magic* and a rejection of criminology, archaeology and forensic science. IF there was a Treblinka holocaust, THEN THERE ARE MASS GRAVES FILLED WITH MILLIONS OF POUNDS OF CRUSHED BONE & ASH TO PROVE IT!

[gnome]

I guess Hitler was just a big pussy who didn't have the balls or the capacity to attempt a major operation to exterminate the Jews.

Heck, nicnac... I'll answer your question:

N

What's next?

[Ducky]

Originally posted by treble_head
anyone got any recipies?

Indeed I do, treble_head.

Do you like Chili? Here's a good one for that. For those that are vegan, I suggest substituting chopped or diced garden burgers for the meat:


Olive oil or butter
2 cans (6 ounces each) tomato paste, thinned with water
3 to 4 medium onions, chopped, about 3 cups
1 green bell pepper, chopped, about 3/4 cup
2 to 10 cloves of garlic, minced (or to taste)
3 tablespoons commercial chili powder, or more to taste
1 tablespoon ground cumin
1 tablespoon dried oregano
1/2 teaspoon dried basil

In a 4-quart pot, cook meat in a little olive oil or butter (or a blend of the two) until no longer pink. Drain excess fat.
Add remaining ingredients and simmer 2 to 3 hours with the lid on.
Makes 6 to 8 servings.

.

P.s. treble_head, do you have any tips for using the midi compose functions in Logic 7? What is a good USB midi keyboard controller?

[Metullus]

Originally posted by nicnac
Do you admit that nobody has been able to locate the mass graves of Treblinka...
I do not know that "nobody has been able to locate the mass graves of Treblinka". I know that there is evidence that after the war bones and ash were to be found at the site and that, allegedly, locals came to the site and sifted through the bones and ash in search of valubles.

I know that photographs exist that support these reports.

I know that eyewitness testimony supports these reports.

Originally posted by nicnac
and no JREF pseudoskeptic can explain why?

Given that you are the only person I would charaterize as a "pseudoskeptic" presently involved in this discussion I would defer to you on this one.


I can speak to the broader issue, that is to say the claim that since ground-scan radar did not locate any "graves" the "Treblinka holocaust" is a myth. We have good reason to question the findings in that these "scans" do not show the even ground disturbance that we would expect given that the site was farmed from 1943 - 1946. If there is in the scans no sign of soils disrurbance for millions of years this goes against the known (and undisputed) history of the site since the war this argues against the validity of the nafcash data.

Soapy Sam's post is to the point:

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
1. No crushed bone fragments have been found at Treblinka*
Clearly, if the soil has not been disturbed, nobody has excavated to look for bone. But if nobody has excavated to look for bone, clearly, no bone will have been found.
What is the significance then, of the above claim?
2. Krege's survey included core sampling*
So one would hope. Details would be good.
3. Ground radar shows the soil at Treblinka has been undisturbed for millions of years*, despite it's periglacial situation less than 12,000 years ago,despite 1500 years of agricultural history, despite the uncontroversial fact that the land was farmed from 1943 to 1946 and despite the clear presence on aerial photos of a forest over much of the site today. (Which I understand would render a ground radar survey very hard - though not impossible- to carry out.)
4. http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/maps.html
This site displays a number of maps. It's pretty clear that considerable uncertainty exists about the exact boundaries of parts of the two camp areas. In absence of data from either camp, it is my suspicion that the survey results are simply wrong, probably having been done in the wrong place, but even more probably due to simple unfamiliarity with the equipment.

Until I am much better informed about the detail of the claimed survey, I see no reason to question either general accepted conclusions about the "Final Solution" or specific historical conclusions about Treblinka I or II.

On top of this you have not even addressed the disingenousness of the "nafcash challenge" - do we need to explain that to you again as well?



edited to correct spelling error - in english there is a "y" in "you".

[nicnac]

If “the world’s foremost skeptic� (who insists his SOPHOMORIC AND SOPHISTIC convergence of evidence theory “historically� proves the holocaust), can’t scientifically locate even one of the alleged “huge mass graves� of Treblinka and can’t forensically prove even 1% of the absurd “pure extermination center� myth, then what does that say about the veracity of these allegedly “historically proven facts?� T.T.C. & T.F.C. goes out to anyone who is a seeker of the truth and/or who REALLY wants to put an end to “holocaust denial.� What we’re challenging anyone to prove are - UNDENIABLY – scientifically knowable truths and forensically provable facts. That is of course – IF – the legends are true. (Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional).

[Ducky]

Originally posted by nicnac
blahblahblahblah


And again, you did not answer my direct question.

Doyou realize your agrument about your elephant or direct evidence for one particular point of treblinka does nothing but create a false dillemma?

Lack of evidence does not prove anything. In fact, you are attempting to prove a negative.

Did you read any of the comments about the response that trbelinka's earth hadn't been disturbed? Here's what SoapySam said, in case you missed it:

1. No crushed bone fragments have been found at Treblinka*
Clearly, if the soil has not been disturbed, nobody has excavated to look for bone. But if nobody has excavated to look for bone, clearly, no bone will have been found.
What is the significance then, of the above claim?
2. Krege's survey included core sampling*
So one would hope. Details would be good.
3. Ground radar shows the soil at Treblinka has been undisturbed for millions of years*, despite it's periglacial situation less than 12,000 years ago,despite 1500 years of agricultural history, despite the uncontroversial fact that the land was farmed from 1943 to 1946 and despite the clear presence on aerial photos of a forest over much of the site today. (Which I understand would render a ground radar survey very hard - though not impossible- to carry out.)
4. http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/maps.html
This site displays a number of maps. It's pretty clear that considerable uncertainty exists about the exact boundaries of parts of the two camp areas. In absence of data from either camp, it is my suspicion that the survey results are simply wrong, probably having been done in the wrong place, but even more probably due to simple unfamiliarity with the equipment.



You will now see kittens and recipies. The reason for this is that you have demonstrated you cannot rationally do anything to discuss this, and you are just posting the same drivel over and over.

[nicnac]

If the mass graves of Belzec have been scientifically and forensically proven by Mr. Kola and Mr. O'Neil, (and also allegedly by Mr. Shermer) then why won't any of you bigbrains (or especially Mr. Shermer) lay claim to nafcash's forensic challenge?
All the work has already been done! Kola has written a book. Shermer has unpublished evidence as well and O'Neil has articles written on the internet.
If the nafcash challenge is disingenous, then we all can find out for sure after you lay claim to the prize. Instead of yapping on this thread, why don't you get to work and claim the prize? After all, you do want to put an end to holocuast denial don't you?

[Spidey13]

Do you have scientific evidence that there is no elephant in your basement?

[Metullus]

Originally posted by treble_head
anyone got any recipies? I have kitty pictures!
That incorpoate cats? I'll check my card box but nothing jumps out at me.

I should ask jmercer - he came through with a gut-buster fudge not long ago...

[gmanontario]

yay recipes and kittens!! (tho not kitten recipes right?)

I've been looking for ages for a really good recipe for Boston baked beans...

anyone?

anyone?

[Ducky]

Originally posted by nicnac
If the mass graves of Belzec have been scientifically and forensically proven by Mr. Kola and Mr. O'Neil, (and also allegedly by Mr. Shermer) then why won't any of you bigbrains (or especially Mr. Shermer) lay claim to nafcash's forensic challenge?
All the work has already been done! Kola has written a book. Shermer has unpublished evidence as well and O'Neil has articles written on the internet.



Last I checked, Mr. Shermer doesn't post here. Why are you?

[Metullus]

Originally posted by gmanontario
yay recipes and kittens!! (tho not kitten recipes right?)

I've been looking for ages for a really good recipe for Boston baked beans...

anyone?

anyone?
Well first you have to simmer the cat for a good long time...

[Ducky]

Originally posted by gmanontario
yay recipes and kittens!! (tho not kitten recipes right?)

I've been looking for ages for a really good recipe for Boston baked beans...

anyone?

anyone?

As a matter of fact...

4 cups cooked or canned navy beans
1/3 cup molasses
2 tablespoons brown sugar
1 teaspoon dry mustard
1 teaspoon ground ginger
1 teaspoon salt
1 tablespoon safflower oil
1 large onion, sliced into rings

Preheat the oven to 350 F. Combine all the ingredients except the oil and onion in a 1 1/2 quart baking dish, along with 1/4 cup of water. Mix thoroughly. Cover and bake 30 minutes.

Heat the oil in a skillet. When it is hot, add the onion, stirring to separate the rings, and saute until brown. After the beans have baked for 30 minutes, top with the onions and bake, uncovered, for another 10 minutes. Serve at once

[treble_head]

Originally posted by fowlsound


P.s. treble_head, do you have any tips for using the midi compose functions in Logic 7? What is a good USB midi keyboard controller?

As far a s good midi controller, I like Roland's Edirol PCR-M50 (http://www.steptimemedia.com/pedik.htm)

The 80 has more keys but I rarely break the 3 octave range anyway (transposing aside).

If you don't need all the keys, the 50 is great.

OOOH never mind. There's an 80 on Ebay right now for $46.95.
Prolly get it for $150.

[Metullus]

Wow, fowlsound, my recipe was almost the same as yours:

1 medium cat, declawed
4 cups cooked or canned navy beans
1/3 cup molasses
2 tablespoons brown sugar
1 teaspoon dry mustard
1 teaspoon ground ginger
1 teaspoon salt
1 tablespoon safflower oil
1 large onion, sliced into rings

Preheat the oven to 350 F. Combine all the ingredients except the oil and onion in a 1 1/2 quart baking dish, along with 1/4 cup of water. Mix thoroughly. Cover and bake 30 minutes.

Heat the oil in a skillet. When it is hot, add the onion, stirring to separate the rings, and saute until brown. After the beans have baked for 30 minutes, top with the onions and bake, uncovered, for another 10 minutes.

[Ducky]

Originally posted by treble_head
As far a s good midi controller, I like Roland's Edirol PCR-M50 (http://www.steptimemedia.com/pedik.htm)

The 80 has more keys but I rarely break the 3 octave range anyway (transposing aside).

If you don't need all the keys, the 50 is great.

OOOH never mind. There's an 80 on Ebay right now for $46.95.
Prolly get it for $150.


Nice! Thanks for the tip.

By the way, have you ever used the Nord organ synth? How close the B3 does it sound, and is it on par or better than the included synth b3 emulation in logic 7?

[Mid]

nicnac's posts
general rant

sorry folks for counting my chickens too soon

[Ducky]

Originally posted by Mid
nicnac's posts


sorry folks for counting my chickens too soon


(sorry I can't help it, Mid, I have to spoof the insanity)


DO you admit your counting chickens resulted in incorrect results? I DON'T SEE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET, IF THERE WERE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET I WOULD SEE IT THEREFORE THERE IS NO CHICKEN IN MY BASKET! DO YOU ADMIT THERE IS NO CHICKEN? I'll make this real simple:

1) type y for roast chicken
2) type n for chicken soup

[Ashles]

Originally posted by nicnac
[Rabid foam speckled ranting/Copy and pasting]
Nicnac, either answer some of the questions you have been asked or go away little boy.

I remember Nicnac in The Man With The Golden Gun. A constant, but minor irritation to Bond, considered so insignificant that Bond doesn't even bother killing him - he just shuts him in a suitcase.

How appropriate.

I think I'll become a WWII denier. Sure, there's photos and film and eyewitness testimony, but I demand more.
Maybe I should call in that DVD salesman to do some blank groundscans of somewhere.

Revisionists IQ - 1, Originality rating - 0

[Spidey13]

GROUND SCAN OF NICNAC'S BASEMENT (http://www.cbeattie-art.com/Paintings/Animals/elephant%20in%20oil%2016x20%20$325.jpg)

[Metullus]

Originally posted by fowlsound
(sorry I can't help it, Mid, I have to spoof the insanity)


DO you admit your counting chickens resulted in incorrect results? I DON'T SEE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET, IF THERE WERE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET I WOULD SEE IT THEREFORE THERE IS NO CHICKEN IN MY BASKET! DO YOU ADMIT THERE IS NO CHICKEN? I'll make this real simple:

1) type y for roast chicken
2) type n for chicken soup
Since you got to the "ELEPHANTS" quote before I could snag it for my sig line I have decided to settle for your "CHICKEN" quote.

I feel better now.

[Ducky]

Originally posted by Spidey13
GROUND SCAN OF NICNAC'S BASEMENT (http://www.cbeattie-art.com/Paintings/Animals/elephant%20in%20oil%2016x20%20$325.jpg) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Metullus]

Originally posted by Spidey13
GROUND SCAN OF NICNAC'S BASEMENT (http://www.cbeattie-art.com/Paintings/Animals/elephant%20in%20oil%2016x20%20$325.jpg)
Hah!

[Ducky]

Originally posted by Metullus
Since you got to the "ELEPHANTS" quote before I could snag it for my sig line I have decided to settle for your "CHICKEN" quote.

I feel better now.


I am flattered :)

[Mid]

Originally posted by fowlsound
(sorry I can't help it, Mid, I have to spoof the insanity)


DO you admit your counting chickens resulted in incorrect results? I DON'T SEE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET, IF THERE WERE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET I WOULD SEE IT THEREFORE THERE IS NO CHICKEN IN MY BASKET! DO YOU ADMIT THERE IS NO CHICKEN? I'll make this real simple:

1) type y for roast chicken
2) type n for chicken soup :D

[Metullus]

Originally posted by fowlsound
I am flattered :)
I am considering postulating an "Elephant & Chicken Logical Fallicy".

Plus I sorta stole your recipe. I almost feel guilt. Almost.

[Metullus]

Or "the fowlsound-Chicken Riposte".

[Spidey13]

Originally posted by fowlsound
(sorry I can't help it, Mid, I have to spoof the insanity)


DO you admit your counting chickens resulted in incorrect results? I DON'T SEE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET, IF THERE WERE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET I WOULD SEE IT THEREFORE THERE IS NO CHICKEN IN MY BASKET! DO YOU ADMIT THERE IS NO CHICKEN? I'll make this real simple:

1) type y for roast chicken
2) type n for chicken soup


OK, fowlsound. I nominated this one for the language award. Seriously this time, not jokingly like that last one. :)

[Ducky]

Originally posted by Spidey13
OK, fowlsound. I nominated this one for the language award. Seriously this time, not jokingly like that last one. :)



NICE!

I am flattered yet again... :)

[Metullus]

Originally posted by fowlsound
NICE!

I am flattered yet again... :)
Be blissfull. While we set you up for the fall...:p

[gnome]

Originally posted by nicnac
If the mass graves of Belzec have been scientifically and forensically proven by Mr. Kola and Mr. O'Neil, (and also allegedly by Mr. Shermer) then why won't any of you bigbrains (or especially Mr. Shermer) lay claim to nafcash's forensic challenge?
All the work has already been done! Kola has written a book. Shermer has unpublished evidence as well and O'Neil has articles written on the internet.
If the nafcash challenge is disingenous, then we all can find out for sure after you lay claim to the prize. Instead of yapping on this thread, why don't you get to work and claim the prize? After all, you do want to put an end to holocuast denial don't you?

We can't speak for Mr. Shermer.

Speaking for myself, however, I have no reason to think the evidence will be reviewed in an impartial manner, or that the money exists. Your comments here have not increased that level of confidence--in fact, because you lack any rational discussion skills, it has surely worsened it.

JREF's challenge, on the other hand, spells out how JREF cannot simply rule the challenge a failure, and also shows how to confirm the existence of the prize money.

[delphi_ote]

*catches up on thread*

Wow... visiting this board is like going on an African safari sometimes. You see so many rare and dangerous animals.

I worked at a holocaust museum for about a year where I talked to survivors and read original copies of first hand accounts. I've seen hundreds of photos, maybe thousands. My grandfather actually liberated one of the camps and told me about it a few times before he passed away.

Shermer is exactly right. Holocaust deniers and young Earth creationists play the same game. No matter how much converging evidence exists to counter their claims, they tout a few ridiculous pieces of evidence over and over again to stir up an imaginary controversy.

I shudder to think what might happen if the holocaust deniers formed a fake-science think tank like the Discovery Institute. From the liked websites, it seems like they might be headed in this direction already.

[Khonshu]

delphi,

Look the "Institute for Historical Revision" sometime. The "revisionists" are very real, and somewhat organized. This topic comes up way too often for it to be otherwise.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Hmm...One thing I have always wondered about these Holocaust revisionists is just how do they explain where all the Jews went if the gas chambers are a myth.....aliens took them away maybe?

[headscratcher4]

So basically, here is the “score� (as that is how NICNAC seeming sees the world):

1. No one here accepts the very thin alleged evidence proffered that NICNAC asserts undermines the “proof� that Tablinka was a Nazi killing center – indeed, significant and logical explanations of why such evidence is useless and unlikely to prove what NINIAC asserts has been offered (see SoapySam above). No one accepts that he is interested in a real discussion. No one thinks that the “challenge� NICNA Champions has any merit or makes any scientific or logical sense. Most balance their skepticism of this alleged challenge – that is designed to give a specific result, not prove or disprove anything scientifically or historically – with mounds, tons, volumes of witness statements, trial transcripts, photographs, official documents, site analysis, and on and on…
2. NIICNAC, on the other hand, rejects every explanation and all evidence that doesn’t conform to his pre-conceived bias and notions. He will answer no questions, address no challenges to his logic, and hangs his hat throwing about terms like “forensic� in some totemistic fashion. In short, he argues like a teenager talking about his favorite band and not history or science.

Accepted History 1, NINIAC 0

This is getting very sad and tiresom. Again, I argue to NICNAC the essense of science is postulating your theory, gathering your proof and making it available for credible analasis and letting the intelectual, historical and scientific chips fall where they may. The perpitrators of this alleged "challange" are not interested. They are interested in the denial/revisionist "game" and not history. They have every opporunity to prove their "theory" yet they don't, rather they want to engage in name-calling and jew-baiting. This would seem to be the same "scientific" rigor that Nazi anthropologists brought to their study of "race" and genetics -- but even those evil, small and horribly wrong men had the guts to publish (even if discenting analysis would have condemend the discenter). You ane your ilk have abandoned any semblence of method. You are, in short, a fundumentalist, so why should anyone here continue with this?

[Metullus]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland
Hmm...One thing I have always wondered about these Holocaust revisionists is just how do they explain where all the Jews went if the gas chambers are a myth.....aliens took them away maybe?
No. Florida.

[Bronze Dog]

I nominate headscratcher4 as referee and score-keeper of the thread. :D

[nicnac]

The more you claim that the evidence is overwhelming, the more you make yourselves look foolish for not being able to explain why no one can locate even one of the huge mass graves. And you really make yourselves look like idiots when you refuse to acknowledge that at Belzec, the Archaeologist Kola and the criminologist O'Neil located 33 mass graves and concluded that they do in fact contain the remains of 600,000 people (or more). If they can locate and confirm the mass graves and the existance and number of remains at Belzec, then why can't they do it at Treblinka? If the existance of the mass graves of Treblinka are as obvious as the existance of the moon, could you please show me whree these alleged huge mass graves are? How about just one of them?
RECAP – The alleged “pure extermination center,� Treblinka II, is best understood when looked at as - A HOLOCAUST WITHIN THE HOLOCAUST. No matter what anyone thinks about the holocaust in general, one thing is eminently clear – THE TREBLINKA HOLOCAUST IS AN UNTENABLE FRAUD. To believe that the Nazis could OBLITERATE ALL EVIDENCE of the murder of 870,000 Jews requires incredible gullibility and a lack of intelligence, logic and critical thinking skills. It requires a belief in *magic* and a rejection of criminology, archaeology and forensic science. IF there was a Treblinka holocaust, THEN THERE ARE MASS GRAVES FILLED WITH MILLIONS OF POUNDS OF CRUSHED BONE & ASH TO PROVE IT!

[Bronze Dog]

You haven't read a thing posted here, have you nicnac?

[nicnac]

If the mass graves of Belzec have been scientifically and forensically proven by Mr. Kola and Mr. O'Neil, (and also allegedly by Mr. Shermer) then why won't any of you bigbrains (or especially Mr. Shermer) lay claim to nafcash's forensic challenge?
All the work has already been done! Kola has written a book. Shermer has unpublished evidence as well and O'Neil has articles written on the internet.
If the nafcash challenge is disingenous, then we all can find out for sure after you lay claim to the prize. Instead of yapping on this thread, why don't you get to work and claim the prize? After all, you do want to put an end to holocuast denial don't you?

[Spidey13]

Originally posted by nicnac
If the mass graves of Belzec have been scientifically and forensically proven by Mr. Kola and Mr. O'Neil, (and also allegedly by Mr. Shermer) then why won't any of you bigbrains (or especially Mr. Shermer) lay claim to nafcash's forensic challenge?
All the work has already been done! Kola has written a book. Shermer has unpublished evidence as well and O'Neil has articles written on the internet.
If the nafcash challenge is disingenous, then we all can find out for sure after you lay claim to the prize. Instead of yapping on this thread, why don't you get to work and claim the prize? After all, you do want to put an end to holocuast denial don't you?

Very simple question nicnac. Since you're the one that seems to have so much emotion invested in this, why don't you go do it? Let us know what you find. We'll gladly listen to you then. Plus, you can make some money!!! (maybe)

[Ducky]

I see nicnac's posting again. Must be at lunch at his high school.



Anyone have a good recipe for quiche?

[Rolfe]

Isn't it about time nicnac got banned for being a sock of benze?

http://www.b5-dark-mirror.demon.co.uk/caramelkit.jpg

Oh, and for spamming?

Rolfe.

[Ashles]

Originally posted by nicnac
Instead of yapping on this thread, why don't you get to work and claim the prize?
Would you expend effort to demonstrate something you already know for a prize you don't believe exists?

Just think - all your revisionist effort, all your hate filled rants, all your intense effort to create lies about history is destined to be no more successful than it has been in this thread.

That's got to be depressing.

Perhaps you should take up knitting instead?

[nicnac]

I see foulsmell has finished his paper route. Make sure you take out the garbage too young man. And yes bronzedog I have read all the drivel you loosers have posted. I would be more than happy to debat if you loosers would at least educate yourselves on the subject.
Here is what you all need to understand.
It doesn't matter what anybody believes happened after the Nazis allegedly dug up the 700,000 corpses that were buried in the original huge mass graves. It doesn't matter how hard they tried to "obliterate all traces of mass murder." The evidence would be indelible. Anyone who thinks otherwise is mentally retarded. And all the "overwhelming" evidence that you incesently refer to points to the mass graves being in the exact spot that Kreige and his team investigated. If you don't believe the Kreige investigation was valid, then you loosers have to show the true skeptics evidence of the mass murder. After all, you do want to put an end to holocaust denial don't you? (Or do you loosers actually believe in magically disapearing Jews?).
To believe that the Nazis could OBLITERATE ALL EVIDENCE of the murder of 870,000 Jews requires incredible gullibility and a lack of intelligence, logic and critical thinking skills. It requires a belief in *magic* and a rejection of criminology, archaeology and forensic science. IF there was a Treblinka holocaust, THEN THERE ARE MASS GRAVES FILLED WITH MILLIONS OF POUNDS OF CRUSHED BONE & ASH TO PROVE IT!
Can anyone show me just one of these alleged graves?

[nicnac]

I don't know if the nafcash prize is bogus or not, but I have no reason to believe that it is. I do however have reason to doubt the existance of the "huge mass graves of Treblinka," because To believe that the Nazis could OBLITERATE ALL EVIDENCE of the murder of 870,000 Jews requires incredible gullibility and a lack of intelligence, logic and critical thinking skills. It requires a belief in *magic* and a rejection of criminology, archaeology and forensic science. IF there was a Treblinka holocaust, THEN THERE ARE MASS GRAVES FILLED WITH MILLIONS OF POUNDS OF CRUSHED BONE & ASH TO PROVE IT!

So is this the "logic" that you loosers use to say that the nafcash prize is bogus?

Nafcash never sent ADLarson a copy of their bank statement. Therefore, they don't have any money.

[Spidey13]

Originally posted by nicnac
(Or do you loosers actually believe in magically disapearing Jews?).


First off, it's spelled "losers." As in, the basketball team that doesn't win are the "losers." Looser means "less tight." As in, your mother is "looser" than Traci Lords. (Sorry guys, had to go there.)

Secondly, I'm not sure if we've ever debated magically disappearing Jews in this forum. We're usually preoccupied with the magically reappearing Jew. AKA Jesus.

Anyway, it appears to me here that you are acknowledging that there are missing Jews, but they were not killed. So, are you supporting the magical theory?

[nicnac]

[Treblinka “Eyewitness�] Abraham Goldfarb relates: …we secretly placed in the walls of the graves whole skeletons and we wrote on scraps of paper what the Germans were doing at Treblinka. We put the scraps of paper into bottles which we placed next to the skeletons. Our intention was that if one day someone looked for traces of the Nazis’ crimes, they could indeed be found.�

[nicnac]

I'm supporting the transit camp theory until someone can show me the physical evidence that common sense says exists (like any real skeptic would). Later loooooooooooooooooooosers

[Ashles]

Originally posted by nicnac
I see foulsmell has finished his paper route. Make sure you take out the garbage too young man.
Why do you continually attempt to parrot our comments to you? Can you not think of any yourself?

And yes bronzedog I have read all the drivel you loosers have posted. I would be more than happy to debat if you loosers would at least educate yourselves on the subject.
Here is what you all need to understand.
It doesn't matter what anybody believes happened after the Nazis allegedly dug up the 700,000 corpses that were buried in the original huge mass graves. It doesn't matter how hard they tried to "obliterate all traces of mass murder." The evidence would be indelible. Anyone who thinks otherwise is mentally retarded. And all the "overwhelming" evidence that you incesently refer to points to the mass graves being in the exact spot that Kreige and his team investigated. If you don't believe the Kreige investigation was valid, then you loosers have to show the true skeptics evidence of the mass murder.
It's official - he really does think 'losers' is speltwith two 'o's

And nicnac, in the first place you need to actually show that your DVD salesman actually carried out a ground scan. You see, from that one rubbish image I don't believe he did.

After all, you do want to put an end to holocaust denial don't you?
We'd love to. And also racism, ignorance, stupidity etc.
But sadly mere evidence isn't going to do that.
Altering the psychological inadequacies that some people struggle with would take far more effort and contact than we can offer here.

(Or do you loosers actually believe in magically disapearing Jews?).
One of your 'o's needs to magically disappear. Really, if you take away nothing else from your visit to these boards at least you can learn how to spell the word 'loser' correctly.
You never know how important that might be to you in later life.

To believe that the Nazis could OBLITERATE ALL EVIDENCE of the murder of 870,000 Jews requires incredible gullibility and a lack of intelligence, logic and critical thinking skills. It requires a belief in *magic* and a rejection of criminology, archaeology and forensic science. IF there was a Treblinka holocaust, THEN THERE ARE MASS GRAVES FILLED WITH MILLIONS OF POUNDS OF CRUSHED BONE & ASH TO PROVE IT!
Can anyone show me just one of these alleged graves?
You aren't actually reading any of the responses here so what is the point?
If we took you to the site and shoved your face into a grave you would still deny it.

We can't help you deal with your anger. We don't know what causes it. Maybe Mummy and Daddy didn't give you enough attention. Maybe you are incompetent and can't hold down a job or relationship. Certainly you struggle to communicate, which must be a problem.
We just don't know what fuels your pointless and pitiful hatred.

Here's a thought - why don't you contact Survivors of the Shoah (http://www.vhf.org/) and ask them your questions.
But I doubt you have the guts.

[headscratcher4]

Can you read? No, seriously, basic reading (even with your lips moving). Nothing in your rant would indicate that you possess basic reading and comprehension skills – at least not any above about 4th grade.

No one here believes that the Nazis obliterated all evidence. IT is there in abundance, whether in the testimony, the trials, the documents, the photos and, yes, at the site itself.

What no one here is buying is your definition of what constitutes evidence, and they are not buying it for numerous, well articulated reasons…from the lack of science, lack of a coherent postulated, sound forensic theory by you or any of the hate-groups you front for about what one should look for, what evidence one should expect, in what shape that evidence would be. No one buys that there is any level of evidence that would satisfy you. No one buys that the alleged “challenge� is anything but a Nazi front and not a realistic, scientific challenge. No one buys that you understand the questions that have been posed to you. No one buys that you are honest. In short, no one buys the drivel and hate you spew.

Why are you here? You are clearly not interested in science. You are not interested in history. You are not interested in debate.

If the method you champion has merit, why aren’t you and your Nazi buddies out there doing the survey and publishing the results….go ahead, you sniveling little coward, prove us wrong. Show us up for being blind fools. Go out there, collect the documents, write your “proof� up, submit it, publish it, put it on the web and invite the “forensic� scientists whose shoulders you aspire to stand on to prove your little anti-Semitic plots to find fault with your data and conclusions. Because you can’t?

[nicnac]

Hey headscratcher, if the physical evidence is there in abundance, could you please show me where the huge mass graves that contain the millions of pooooooounds of crushed boooone and ash are? Hoooooow abooooout oooooone of them? After all, you do want to put an end to holocaust denial, dooooon't yooooou?

[nicnac]

UNTIL THE ALLEGED MASS GRAVES OF TREBLINKA ARE FOUND – NO mass graves = NO crushed bone & ash = NO burning of bodies = NO homicidal gas chambers = NO mass murder = NO death camp = NO TREBLINKA HOLOCAUST = THE TRUTH – TREBLINKA II WAS A TRANSIT CAMP. To believe that the Nazis could OBLITERATE ALL EVIDENCE of the murder of 870,000 Jews requires incredible gullibility and a lack of intelligence, logic and critical thinking skills. It requires a belief in *magic* and a rejection of criminology, archaeology and forensic science.

Revisionists - 1, J.R.E.F.P.S's - 0

[headscratcher4]

You realize, of course, that continuing to make the same discredited point is not the same as scoring points? If you are int the batter's box, swinging isn't enough, nor how many times you swing, you actually have to lay some wood on the ball and move it forward...I mean, you can argue all you want to that the earth is flat, but I need to see you step off the edge in this case....

[gnome]

Originally posted by nicnac
UNTIL THE ALLEGED MASS GRAVES OF TREBLINKA ARE FOUND – NO mass graves = NO crushed bone & ash = NO burning of bodies = NO homicidal gas chambers = NO mass murder = NO death camp = NO TREBLINKA HOLOCAUST = THE TRUTH – TREBLINKA II WAS A TRANSIT CAMP. To believe that the Nazis could OBLITERATE ALL EVIDENCE of the murder of 870,000 Jews requires incredible gullibility and a lack of intelligence, logic and critical thinking skills. It requires a belief in *magic* and a rejection of criminology, archaeology and forensic science.

Revisionists - 1, J.R.E.F.P.S's - 0

It's a good thing nobody is arguing what you say they are! Otherwise you might have a point...

Convincing people of something works a lot better if you actually respond to their arguments instead of repeating the same point over and over.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by nicnac
To believe that the Nazis could OBLITERATE ALL EVIDENCE of the murder of 870,000 Jews requires incredible gullibility and a lack of intelligence, logic and critical thinking skills. It requires a belief in *magic* and a rejection of criminology, archaeology and forensic science.

No offense, mate....but why?

I can't find evidence of people who were buried in my local cemetary 60 years ago either. Are you seriously arguing that they didn't die?

[Cleon]

Originally posted by nicnac
UNTIL THE ALLEGED MASS GRAVES OF TREBLINKA ARE FOUND – NO mass graves = NO crushed bone & ash = NO burning of bodies = NO homicidal gas chambers = NO mass murder = NO death camp = NO TREBLINKA HOLOCAUST = THE TRUTH – TREBLINKA II WAS A TRANSIT CAMP. To believe that the Nazis could OBLITERATE ALL EVIDENCE of the murder of 870,000 Jews requires incredible gullibility and a lack of intelligence, logic and critical thinking skills. It requires a belief in *magic* and a rejection of criminology, archaeology and forensic science.

Wow. Eight non-sequitirs in one post. Whoop! There's number nine. Almost missed there, he smuggled it in at the end.

[Ashles]

Originally posted by nicnac
incredible gullibility and a lack of intelligence, logic and critical thinking skills
There, I have edited nicnac's post to be more accurate.

[Ducky]

My paper route? nicnac surely with all your rage you can come up with a better zinger...

You are pounding a dead horse with your false dillemma and your non-sequiters. It does not surprise me that this is all you have to repeat at us in some ridiculous attempt to do whatever it is you think you are doing. You have not won any points, there is no scoreboard and you make yourself look like the complete wanker you are.

Your logic is pants, your argument (singular) is as effective as farting at us and yet you continue to spout the same drivel. Run along little boy, you didn't accomplish anything except to irritate a forum of people who actually understand logical discourse and reason.

So, yeah. Who's got a quiche recipe?

[Spidey13]

One Bowl Zucchini Quiche Recipe
* 3 or 4 Zucchini, sliced thin
* ½ Cup Oil
* 1 Grated Onion
* 4 Beaten Eggs
* 1 Cup Bisquick
* ½ Cup Parmesan cheese
* 1 tbl. Parsley flakes

Put the ingredients in one bowl and mix together.
Grease pan.
Bake at 350 degrees for 55 minutes.
You can use other vegetables, but zucchini is the best.

[Metullus]

Spidey, you forgot the cats.

[Spidey13]

Originally posted by Metullus
Spidey, you forgot the cats.


Feel free to add cats and/or extra O's to taste.

[The Kilted Yaksman]

Originally posted by Metullus
No. Florida.
No no no. If you read enough of the other threads here you too would come to the obvious conclusion that it was those wacky time-travelling Reptoids.

[davefoc]

nicnac,
I just read throuqgh the whole thread.

It seems that you believe that a very large number of people were either killed directly or died through overwork, disease or other causes as a result of mistreatment by the NAZI's. Is this correct?

It also seems that you believe it is more likely than not that Treblinka did not serve as an extermination camp but rather as a transition camp? Is this correct?

Further it seems that you believe that the evidence provided on the web site you linked to is a sufficient basis for you opinion about the function of the Treblinka camp. Is this correct?

The main evidence provided on that web site seems to be a report of a ground penetrating radar survey that didn't reveal any disturbed earth where mass graves could exist on the Treblinka sites. Is this correct?

Assuming that I have understood your thinking as outlined above, my question to you is why would you assign credibility to this site. It promotes an idea that is inconsistent with the overwhelming views of established historians, it attempts to promote its credibility with an absurd prize offer, it seems to be racist in it orientation and it claims that a detailed report will be released about the 1999 research but no such report appears to exist in 2005. If this weren't enogh to serve as a basis for skepticism about the site, then I wonder what would make you skeptical about the site.

There is one other issue here that has only lightly been touched on by some of the posters. The holocaust was a staggering personal disaster for many people. Many of us know people who lost family members in the holocaust. Have you considered that by promoting your theories you are unnecessarily causing these people emotional pain. Perhaps if you had the remotest scintilla of credible evidence that pain might be justified by the notion of a search for truth. But you don't. What you have are the routine rantings of the fringe that exist around all well known historical events.

[Ducky]

Originally posted by davefoc
nicnac,
(continue very eloquent and well thought post)

As much as I commend you on a very good post, I fear nicnac's only response will be to rant about ground scans and some elephant he can't see.

My prediction:

The same false dillemma, the same non-sequiters, strawmen and a few ad homs to boot.


edited for spelling.

[Cleon]

Looks like God has diarrhea today. We've got another one. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1871067821#post1871067821)

[Ducky]

Originally posted by Cleon
Looks like God has diarrhea today. We've got another one. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1871067821#post1871067821)


Only goes to further my theory that troll groups attack as they see fit from their own message forums. Here's the scenario:

Troll1: I was just at the JREF forums. They kept telling me my arguments were not logical and demanding evidence.

Troll2: let's go get them. If they see our sheer numbers, they will abandon all logic and convert!


Whatever. Kathy had Christian Dude. nicnac has his new troll friend. They run off to their own forums when their arguments don't stand up.

[Palimpsest]

OT:

Just delurking to throw some avatar love in Spidey13's direction.

"Listen to the Chair-Leg of Truth! It does not lie!"

[nicnac]

So you have a problem with people like me who want to see physical evidence of something when common sense says it exists? (wer're called skepics by the way). You want to shut us up and make us go away? You want t put an end to holocaust denail? Well then davefoc (and anyone else who wants to put an end to holocaust denial), if you believe that the “deniers� are crazy when they talk about “Jewish conspiracies� (but your belief in *magically* disappearing Jews is sane – right?), then why haven’t you accepted T.T.C. or T.F.C.?

I don't see an elephant....

[Ducky]

DO I qualify for the million dollar prize for the prediction?

[nicnac]

To debunk the deniers can’t we just go there and see them for ourselves? The answer, of course, is “yes.�… We can no longer ignore the deniers, calling them names and hoping they will go away… We cannot remain silent anymore. It’s time to respond… Not only is it defensible to respond to the deniers, it is, we believe, our duty… Many of our arguments draw on specialized research into the claims of the deniers that took us… to the Nazi extermination camps themselves… we went to Europe to conduct research at the camps, in particular at… TREBLINKA, Sobibor, Belzec… We wanted to see for ourselves just what evidence there is at the camps and to take the opportunity to examine firsthand the claims… Much of the research is the type of work professional historians normally do… analyzing ground and aerial photographs... These photographs are a good example of how, in order to make proper interpretations, we must review the physical evidence… Like criminologists solving a crime, we piece together the myriad bits of evidence until a conclusion emerges from the morass of data.�

Do you agree it's time to respond? If so, could you please show me the mass graves of Treblinka? How about just one of them?

[Cleon]

Originally posted by nicnac
So you have a problem with people like me who want to see physical evidence of something

If you want to see physical evidence, go to Treblinka and look, and stop pestering us. Jesus tapdancing christ.

[Ducky]

Originally posted by nicnac
wer're called skepics by the way

I don't see an elephant....


You are anything but a skeptic.

You clearly have an agenda by posing as a skeptic and demanding proof of one specific thing. Your colors are vivid, and obvious to us all.

Skeptics use rational thought, logic, and don't resort to beating someone over the head with the same logically fallacious argument over and over and claim victory.

Skeptics use their brains. You are using your ass to think.

[nicnac]

You never answered my question from yesterday.

What are you, "The JREF wishes civility be the norm". This was not. Please refrain.

And Cleon, Mr. Shermer has already done that. True skeptics are just waiting for him to publish the results of his study. Why don't you email him and ask him what is taking so long?

[Mid]

Originally posted by nicnac
...snip...
True skeptics
...snip...

arh the Church of the True Skeptics, founding members Uri Geller, Sylvia Browne and every other woo under the sun

ETA I probably should apologise to any woos about associating their views with nicnacs, sorry

[Ducky]

I have nominated nicnac for his obviously superior wit and intellect. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1871068005#post1871068005)


9 pages and you're down to calling people retarded?

[Metullus]

It is quite a step down from nicnac's high-water mark:

"I DON’T SEE AN ELEPHANT IN MY BASEMENT. IF THERE WERE AN ELEPHANT IN MY BASEMENT, I WOULD CERTAINLY SEE IT. THEREFORE, THERE IS NO ELEPHANT IN MY BASEMENT."

I guess this is an example of regression to the mean...

[Spidey13]

Originally posted by Palimpsest
OT:

Just delurking to throw some avatar love in Spidey13's direction.

"Listen to the Chair-Leg of Truth! It does not lie!"


;) Thank ya.

[Ceinwyn]

I'm sorry if this has been asked already but...

nicnac, even if Treblinka were a fraud, does that negate all of the holocaust?

I'm not saying it is, but would one place that has minimal evidence discount all the massive evidence that's available?

I guess I'm asking, why are you focusing so much on Treblinka when there is so much horrifyingly abundant evidence of the holocaust elsewhere?

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland
Hmm...One thing I have always wondered about these Holocaust revisionists is just how do they explain where all the Jews went if the gas chambers are a myth.....aliens took them away maybe?

I was asking about Holocaust deniers several years ago with someone who sees a lot of their ilk.

"So wait, what happened to the six million Jews?"
"There weren't any."
"Meh?"
"Exactly."

Flying Spaghetti Monster, Rolfe. I love that kitten picture. It's cute enough to DIE for.

[pmurray]

Originally posted by benze
No, people were not "incinerated." They were allegedly cremated.
...
I have to agree with nafcash that 870,000 people cannot simply vanish.

Huh? When you are cremated, what is left fits into an urn that is less than a litre. 1000 litres is a cube 1 metre by one metre.

A general purpose dry cargo container is
Length ----- 40 feet (12.192m)
Width ----- 8 feet (2.438m)
Height ----- 8.5 feet (2.591m) and 9.5 feet (2.896m)
http://www.export911.com/e911/ship/dimen.htm

Let's take the less tall of the two. That's 82 cubic metres. So we are talking maybe 10 shipping containers of cremated remains. Total. Over the course of however long the camp was running. Dead simple to get rid of - just ploug it into the soil, if nothing else.

[LostAngeles]

Also,

nicnac is approximately equal to:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/Lost_Angeles/folkmanistrollpuppets.jpg

+/- a sock.

And for good measure:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/Lost_Angeles/IMG_0178.jpg

Shower kitty brothers.

[Ducky]

LA that is adorable.

Very cool.

[treble_head]

btw, foulsound, I have not played yet with your advanced and magical macintosh software, but for Hammond sounds, may I suggest Naitive Instument's B4 (http://www.nativeinstruments.de/index.php?b4_us&flash=7). It includes a set of other organs now, including the Farfisa and other classic organs.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by nicnac
You never answered my question from yesterday.

What are you, "The JREF wishes civility be the norm". This was not. Please refrain.

And Cleon, Mr. Shermer has already done that. True skeptics are just waiting for him to publish the results of his study. Why don't you email him and ask him what is taking so long?

Why don't you get off your erse and do it yourself?

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by nicnac
To debunk the deniers can’t we just go there and see them for ourselves? The answer, of course, is “yes.�… We can no longer ignore the deniers, calling them names and hoping they will go away… We cannot remain silent anymore. It’s time to respond… Not only is it defensible to respond to the deniers, it is, we believe, our duty… Many of our arguments draw on specialized research into the claims of the deniers that took us… to the Nazi extermination camps themselves… we went to Europe to conduct research at the camps, in particular at… TREBLINKA, Sobibor, Belzec… We wanted to see for ourselves just what evidence there is at the camps and to take the opportunity to examine firsthand the claims… Much of the research is the type of work professional historians normally do… analyzing ground and aerial photographs... These photographs are a good example of how, in order to make proper interpretations, we must review the physical evidence… Like criminologists solving a crime, we piece together the myriad bits of evidence until a conclusion emerges from the morass of data.�

Do you agree it's time to respond? If so, could you please show me the mass graves of Treblinka? How about just one of them?

See previous post

[Shrike]

I'm supporting the transit camp theory until someone can show me the physical evidence that common sense says exists (like any real skeptic would).

Ok then: (more copy & paste)
To believe that the Nazis could OBLITERATE ALL EVIDENCE of the transport of 870,000 Jews requires incredible gullibility and a lack of intelligence, logic and critical thinking skills. It requires a belief in *magic* and a rejection of criminology, archaeology and forensic science. IF there was a Treblinka transit camp, THEN THERE ARE 870,000 Jews living somewhere in lala-land TO PROVE IT!
Can anyone (like YOU, nicnac) show me just one of these Jews ?

[CFLarsen]

nicnac,

I can't find evidence of people who were buried in my local cemetary 60 years ago either. Are you seriously arguing that they didn't die?

[Cleon]

Originally posted by nicnac

And Cleon, Mr. Shermer has already done that.


But you're the one who wants to see physical evidence. AFAIK Treblinka is publicly accessible. So go and look, and quit pestering us here. Especially since you've made it clear that you have no interest in what anybody here has to say.


True skeptics


Once again, you're not a "true skeptic." You're a Nazi apologist and a Holocaust denier.

[Mid]

There was an interesting snipet about Treblinka in the Telegraph's obituary to Simon Wiesenthal today: (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/news/2005/09/21/db2101.xml)

Apart from the Eichmann case, Wiesenthal's proudest achievement, and one for which he was wholly responsible, was the bringing to trial of Franz Strangl, the commandant of Treblinka extermination camp, commended by the Nazi leadership as "the best camp commander in Poland".

During Strangl's time in charge at Treblinka, 800,000 inmates were gassed - leaving 25 railway freight cars of women's hair, 145,000 kilos of gold wedding rings, 100 freight cars of shoes, several thousand pearl necklaces and several millions of dollars.


So my question to nicnac is if this was a transit camp what were they doing collecting wedding rings, human hair etc. there?

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by Mid
There was an interesting snipet about Treblinka in the Telegraph's obituary to Simon Wiesenthal today: (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/news/2005/09/21/db2101.xml)



So my question to nicnac is if this was a transit camp what were they doing collecting wedding rings, human hair etc. there?

Ah, but that is mere "testimony" from a man who was tried by the allies in a post-war trial. It is, therefore, completely inadmissable...even if the question were posed: what was with all that hair and rings. Besides, Nicky problem will respond: where are those rings and hair? Can't produce them today (60 years out...well they must not have existed -- forget that, again, witnesses cataloged the store-rooms, etc.). Good try ... thanks for playing.

It seems to come down to some sort of allegation that Schermer is lying or supressing evidence...upon this platform, Nicky is hanging his "skepticism" and determined Anti-Semitism (though, were this strawman to be knocked down, Nicky would surely find a new nail on which to hang his ignorance and hatered).

Here's the thing, Nicky, you accuse Schermer of dishonesty. He has, you believe, evidence that will prove your point and reverse the whole interpretation of history. You demand he show it and not supress it. Here's where the intellectual fun begins...

Go out, do the science, get the proof that you think is there, publish it and THEN challenge Schermer or any "forensic" scientists or whomever, to analyze your results and prove you wrong.

In short, assuming for the minute (which I do not), that Schermer is suppressing information because it will prove your case. YOU DO NOT NEED THAT TO PROVE YOUR CASE. YOU CAN DO IT ON YOUR OWN.

The fact that you would rather argue about Schermer's ethics, morality and honesty, only underscores that you are not only not a skeptic, but also a fraud.

The elephant in the room that you refuse to deal with is the basic fact that the burden is on you and your creepy little cohorts to prove -- understand the word? -- history is wrong or has even been falsified. W

No one here can speak for Schermer. No one has any reason to doubt Schermer and certainly not based on the thin gruel of so called "evidence" that you've brought to the table.

And, we get back to the now many times restated questions about all of this that you've refused to answer in order to sing your now tiersome song.

If you were a real skeptic, you'd be out there figuring out what it takes to test your hypothisis. You, as noted, are a coward.

[nicnac]

1) Hey davefoc, you never answered my questions. I guess you don't really want to put an end to Holocaust denial then Huh?
2) Hey pmurray, you (and all you other P.S.'s) need to read The Treblinka Holocaust by Arnulf Neumair (it's one of the links on the nafcash site, I don't recall wich one at the moment). I think if you were a true skeptic, you would educate yourself on the subject before you chime in and make yourself look so foolish.
3) Hey Ceinwyn, since when is questioning one aspect of a historical event constitute denying that the entire event took place? If I questioned the number of dead at a civil war battle, would you be so stupid as to claim that I was denying the civil war? Of course you wouldn't. So why are you assuming that about this? Historical events are not exempt from the scientific method. It appears that the Treblinka Holocaust has failed the test when Mr. Kreige held it up to the scientific method. Why can't you accept this fact? I take the evidence of science over the evidence of history any day. It's called skepticism. look into it.
4) Hey all of you P.S.'s, UNTIL THE ALLEGED MASS GRAVES OF TREBLINKA ARE FOUND – NO mass graves = NO crushed bone & ash = NO burning of bodies = NO homicidal gas chambers = NO mass murder = NO death camp = NO TREBLINKA HOLOCAUST = THE TRUTH – TREBLINKA II WAS A TRANSIT CAMP. To believe that the Nazis could OBLITERATE ALL EVIDENCE of the murder of 870,000 Jews requires incredible gullibility and a lack of intelligence, logic and critical thinking skills. It requires a belief in *magic* and a rejection of criminology, archaeology and forensic science. If the physical evidence is there in abundance, could you please show me where the huge mass graves that contain the millions of pounds of crushed bone and ash are? How about one of them? After all, you do want to put an end to holocaust denial, don't you?
5) And hey editor Tim, what's worse, asking someone if they are retarded for trying to pass off pictures of other camps as pictures of Treblinka or calling someone a coward?

[Ducky]

Go back to stormfront you moronic little nazi troll.

[Ashles]

Here are some simple questions for you nicnac.

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THE GROUND SCAN IS GENUINE? WHAT IS ITS SOURCE? WHERE CAN WE CONFIRM THIS?

DO YOU THINK THAT MILLIONS OF JEWS WERE SYSTEMATICALLY KILLED DURING THE 1930'S AND 1940'S?

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE A SINGLE BOOK AND WEBSITE OVER THE PHOTOGRAPHS AND TESTIMONY OF THOUSANDS?

DO YOU HAVE PERSONAL ISSUES WITH JEWISH PEOPLE?

Hopefully the big writing should help you see the questions.

[RandFan]

Hopefully the big writing should help you see the questions.No, he (she?) only demands other answer questions while he blithely pretends none are asked of him. He calls that skepticism. Odd sort of it though.

[DragonLady]

I've tried to read this whole topic...although the rants make it a bit difficult.

I just have an honest question: Why wouldn't the remains show up on ground penetrating radar? Or in core samples? That is assuming the scans are genuine & were taken at the right place?

I know nothing about either one. I wouldn't know gpr if you ran over me with it, but I'm curious how it works.

[Metullus]

I've tried to read this whole topic...although the rants make it a bit difficult.

I just have an honest question: Why wouldn't the remains show up on ground penetrating radar? Or in core samples? That is assuming the scans are genuine & were taken at the right place?

I know nothing about either one. I wouldn't know gpr if you ran over me with it, but I'm curious how it works.
Problem #1: What remains would we see? The bodies were cremated, the remains pulevrized, and the ashes plowed into the ground.

Problem #2: How do we know that we are not seeing remains? A couple of days before the forum went down I posted a scan from another site (http://geomodel.com/) showing a pair of trenches that looked very similar to the nafcash scan. What nafcash was claiming in their scan represented "undisturbed" soil looked like what was backfilled & compacted soil Gemodel scan.

Geomodel Scan:

http://geomodel.com/2trench1.jpg

In the Geomodel scan the upper most horizontal bands represent backfilled & compacted fill material. The white & wavey areas are the undisturbed soils below and on either side of the trenches.

Nafcash scan:

The nafcash scan has similar banding in the upper part and wavey white and polychrome areas below. If the Geomodel scan is a not unreasonable guide it would appear that the uppermost couple of meters in the nafcash scan might represent backfilled & compacted fill - just as the generally accepted history of Treblinka would lead us to expect to find. And entirely contrary to the claim made by nafcash.

http://nafcash.com/index_files/image002.jpg

[DragonLady]

Thanks, Metullis, for the info.

Problem #1: What remains would we see? The bodies were cremated, the remains pulevrized, and the ashes plowed into the ground.

But surely they would still show up? No matter how small, they must be detectable. In this day of sophisticated metalurgy & chemical analysis, it's unreasonable to claim we can't find the remains.

[Metullus]

Thanks, Metullis, for the info.



But surely they would still show up? No matter how small, they must be detectable. In this day of sophisticated metalurgy & chemical analysis, it's unreasonable to claim we can't find the remains.
The issue in this thread is not whether or not remains can be found, not even nafcash denies that some people were killed or died there, but rather whether or not the remains of at least 870,000 individuals can be identified. Remains can be and have been found at the site.

Nafcash argues that if there are not the remains of 870,000 people at the site today then Treblinka was not a death camp. Evidently in nafcash's view 869,000 dead does not a holocaust make.

[DragonLady]

The issue in this thread is not whether or not remains can be found, not even nafcash denies that some people were killed or died there, but rather whether or not the remains of at least 870,000 individuals can be identified. Remains can be and have been found at the site.

Aaah...my mistake. I thought he was saying that no remains have been found.

[Metullus]

The nafcash version of history is that Treblinka was a "transfer station" and that transportees may have died during transport and were disposed of there.

[DragonLady]

The nafcash version of history is that Treblinka was a "transfer station" and that transportees may have died during transport and were disposed of there.

What difference would that make?

Who cares if they died during transportation or by firing squad or in the steam chambers or starvation or simply of embarrassment from being stripped and robbed blind?

It's my understanding a total of six million people died altogether. What difference does it make how?

[Ducky]

Curiously I don't see nicnac or his bloody elephant. For those that missed this thread before it went down, nicnac had said he never offered the groundscans from nafcash as evidence, to which my response quoted his post that showed him quoting the hafcash website about the groundscan. He then backpedalled and of course resorted to name calling and generally stupid argument.

I really hope this issue is to rest now. I was rather tired of nicnac and his invisible elephant.


Hey Metullus, I don't see any chickens in my basket....

[davefoc]

nicnac,
It is clear and has been clear for most of the thread that you are not some random skeptic who happened on a holocaust denier site and who was looking for counter evidence as you seemed to claim.

Clearly you had some kind of agenda when you began to post in this thread and just as clearly you had some sort of prior relationship with Benze. It also seems likely that you had some sort of relationship with the author of the website in question.

At this point, as interest in the thread is winding down, I wonder if you might take the time to tell us exactly what your agenda was and what your relationship with the nafcah website is.

Some people have suggested that your driving emotion is some kind of anti-semitism. I am not sure of this. Perhaps you were just a troll, interested to see how long you could keep a thread alive by just repeating the same responses over and over. Perhaps you are not an anti-semite but some close relationship with the author of the site as led you to believe in his views more strongly than any of us can see a justification for.

Probably you won't comply with my request here, instead you will cling to the idea that you have succeeded in fooling at least some of the people about yourself and your intentions. In some ways you are right in that none of us know what your motivations were with regard to this thread but in some ways you have fooled no one. I think it is fair to say that not one person that has taken part in this thread believes that you are what you claim to be.

[Metullus]

Curiously I don't see nicnac or his bloody elephant. For those that missed this thread before it went down, nicnac had said he never offered the groundscans from nafcash as evidence, to which my response quoted his post that showed him quoting the hafcash website about the groundscan. He then backpedalled and of course resorted to name calling and generally stupid argument.

I really hope this issue is to rest now. I was rather tired of nicnac and his invisible elephant.


Hey Metullus, I don't see any chickens in my basket.... And it looks like nicky reclaimed his elephant from you...:)

BTW, I take it that your new avatar is you - up close and personal. Man, I envy your fortitude but not your experience.

[Ducky]

And it looks like nicky reclaimed his elephant from you...:)

BTW, I take it that your new avatar is you - up close and personal. Man, I envy your fortitude but not your experience.


When xian fundies tell me about Jesus, I point to that picture and tell them "My carpenter has an MD from Harvard and a PhD from MIT. He can do this with someone who has a tumor in their spine and because of it, I walk again. What has your carpenter done lately?"

Also works well against homeopaths and medical woos claiming to cure cancer.

But I digress, that's another thread...

[Metullus]

When xian fundies tell me about Jesus, I point to that picture and tell them "My carpenter has an MD from Harvard and a PhD from MIT. He can do this with someone who has a tumor in their spine and because of it, I walk again. What has your carpenter done lately?"

Also works well against homeopaths and medical woos claiming to cure cancer.

But I digress, that's another thread...

Be cool if they had spikes coming out the back, too.

[ungoliant]

it must be obvious by now that nicnac came here already decided on his/her opinion of treblinka and did not come for debate or for the evidence he/she is asking for. this person is a troll with an agenda.

i know very little of the holocaust and am in no way qualified to refute the claims of either side in this argument.

but anybody can see that nicnac is using circular arguments, is ignoring evidence, is using bully tactics, is using fundamentally unsound logic and false dilemmas, and repeating same over and over.

to me, this sounds just like an argument between skeptics and fundamentalist religious people. one side has all the evidence, the other just has blind, stubborn faith.

i admit that outside of this and one or two other forum sites, i am a master troll. i visit at least ten forums a day, all as the most aggressive, loud, confrontational, funny, satirical, obnoxious, angry, annoying troll you've ever seen. this is like my alternate persona that i enjoy playing to drive people mad. i usually just have the agenda of completely pissing someone off or hammering someone with my viewpoint.

that is what i see nicnac doing. from one troll to another, people are too smart here. you wont succeed here like you do elsewhere. that whole JREF=0, me=1, I WIN stuff, that doesn't work here. i use that stuff all the time, on other forums, but not here.

this isn't the place for it. these people are smart. you can't fool or badger them into complacency or surrender. they will make you look foolish. and they are.

i don't know who's right about treblinka, but from the context clues, i can see that nicnac doesn't have a leg to stand on.

[Beleth]

The nafcash version of history is that Treblinka was a "transfer station" and that transportees may have died during transport and were disposed of there.
Hmmmm...
If Treblinka was merely a transfer station, where did the transferees go?

If they didn't die at Treblinka, then surely they arrived somewhere else. Where was that?

Of the 870,000 people who "transferred through" Treblinka, surely there were at least 50,000 who were under the age of ten. That would make them in their early seventies today. It's not too unreasonable to think that a tenth of them - five thousand - are still alive today.

Where are they? Can the revisionists produce any verifiable witnesses who can truthfully say "yes, I traveled through Treblinka; I was eventually relocated ouside Germany, and while I was in that foreign land I fell in love, married, and had numerous children and grandchildren, all of whom I regaled with my wondrous story of the enjoyable afternoon I spent in Treblinka"?

[Metullus]

Hmmmm...
If Treblinka was merely a transfer station, where did the transferees go?

If they didn't die at Treblinka, then surely they arrived somewhere else. Where was that?

Of the 870,000 people who "transferred through" Treblinka, surely there were at least 50,000 who were under the age of ten. That would make them in their early seventies today. It's not too unreasonable to think that a tenth of them - five thousand - are still alive today.

Where are they? Can the revisionists produce any verifiable witnesses who can truthfully say "yes, I traveled through Treblinka; I was eventually relocated ouside Germany, and while I was in that foreign land I fell in love, married, and had numerous children and grandchildren, all of whom I regaled with my wondrous story of the enjoyable afternoon I spent in Treblinka"?
Beleth, Beleth, Beleth, how naive can you be?

All of the survivors are part of the vast "JEWISH CONSPIRACY": http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/demjanjuk.htm. No survivor is willing to talk. It's a CONSPIRACY OF JEWS. JEWISH CONSPIRACIES are, evidently, always refered to in ALL CAPS.

Makes it more believable.

[Beleth]

Well!

How conveeeeeeeeeeeennient.

How about a single piece of paper - the Germans were meticulous record-keepers, after all - that verifies someone was somewhere else after they had "transferred through" Treblinka? A visa from a foreign land, a photo someone else took, a letter they wrote to a Gentile, anything?

[Metullus]

Well!

How conveeeeeeeeeeeennient.
Yep. Uh huh. You got it.

Can't get around it. Or over it . Or through it.

These guys have it tied up in a nice, tight. little package.

Yup.

[headscratcher4]

Well!

How conveeeeeeeeeeeennient.

How about a single piece of paper - the Germans were meticulous record-keepers, after all - that verifies someone was somewhere else after they had "transferred through" Treblinka? A visa from a foreign land, a photo someone else took, a letter they wrote to a Gentile, anything?

In fact, this is where you are completely wrong. The Germans were lousey record keepers...that they kept good records is part of the fake history that the perpetuators of the hollocaust myth peddle. In fact, they kept no records. All of the records that have been produced as evidence, as part of testimony or in academic study, what have you, are blatent and obvious forgeries produced by the vast Jewish conspiracy. The sooner you under stand the depth of the evil being perpetrated, the eaiser your life will be.

[Beleth]

And all 870,000 lived the rest of their lives without any of them getting photographed inadvertently by someone they didn't know?

Wow, that's impressive!

[Metullus]

Technically only one of them needs to have survived.

Nafcash's view appears to be that if at least 870,000 were not killed & buried at Treblinka then there was no holocaust. So if only 869,999 people died there it was merely incidental.

Makes sense to me...

[CFLarsen]

And all 870,000 lived the rest of their lives without any of them getting photographed inadvertently by someone they didn't know?

Wow, that's impressive!

Hey, why not?

'UnGoogleables' Hide From Search (http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,68998,00.html)

:D

[Cleon]

Beleth, Beleth, Beleth, how naive can you be?

All of the survivors are part of the vast "JEWISH CONSPIRACY": http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/demjanjuk.htm. No survivor is willing to talk. It's a CONSPIRACY OF JEWS. JEWISH CONSPIRACIES are, evidently, always refered to in ALL CAPS.

Makes it more believable.

ok, let me clear this up right now.

There is no JEWISH CONSPIRACY.

We know this for two reasons.

#1, they have yet to send me my paycheck. I'll be damned if I will continue to do their bidding for free. (Do you hear me? I'm going on strike if you ****ers don't pay up! Move it, Rothschild! Don't tell me you can't afford it!)

#2, based on my admittedly anecdotal evidence, it is virtually impossible to get a single Jewish family to agree on where to go for dinner. I cannot imagine that conquest and subjugation of the civilized world is any more practical.

[Metullus]

ok, let me clear this up right now.

There is no JEWISH CONSPIRACY.

We know this for two reasons.

#1, they have yet to send me my paycheck. I'll be damned if I will continue to do their bidding for free. (Do you hear me? I'm going on strike if you ****ers don't pay up! Move it, Rothschild! Don't tell me you can't afford it!)

#2, based on my admittedly anecdotal evidence, it is virtually impossible to get a single Jewish family to agree on where to go for dinner. I cannot imagine that conquest and subjugation of the civilized world is any more practical. That, Cleon, is exactly what we would expect you to say. Nice try, though.

[Ducky]

On a side note, I had the best corned beef and swiss on rye with russian dressing today. Man that deli makes good sammiches.

[Metullus]

Secret code? Et tu, fowlsound?

[Ducky]

Secret code? Et tu, fowlsound?


I DON'T SEE ANY CHICKENS IN MY BASKET!!!!

[Metullus]

I DON'T SEE ANY CHICKENS IN MY BASKET!!!! Did you look under the corned beef?

I've news for you, my friend, there ARE ALWAYS CHICKENS IN YOUR BASKET!

ALWAYS. ALL THE TIME. EVERY HOUR OF EVERY DAY. CHICKENS. IN. YOUR. BASKET.

I'm better now...

[Ducky]

Did you look under the corned beef?

I've news for you, my friend, there ARE ALWAYS CHICKENS IN YOUR BASKET!

ALWAYS. ALL THE TIME. EVERY HOUR OF EVERY DAY. CHICKENS. IN. YOUR. BASKET.

I'm better now...

This topic is much more amusing without the troll present.

Where is nicnac?

[Metullus]

D'ya think maybe the elephant got him?

[Ducky]

D'ya think maybe the elephant got him?

One can only hope...

[Bronze Dog]

Did you look under the corned beef?

I've news for you, [fowlsound], there ARE ALWAYS CHICKENS IN YOUR BASKET!

ALWAYS. ALL THE TIME. EVERY HOUR OF EVERY DAY. CHICKENS. IN. YOUR. BASKET.

I'm better now...
No, there isn't!... Oh, wait, yes there is. I mean *belch* how would I know? Why are you looking at me like that?

[Metullus]

No, there isn't!... Oh, wait, yes there is. I mean *belch* how would I know? Why are you looking at me like that?
No reason, except, well.. It's just that now I'm going to be worried about the elephants...

[Bri]

All of the records that have been produced as evidence, as part of testimony or in academic study, what have you, are blatent and obvious forgeries produced by the vast Jewish conspiracy.

Normally, I'm not one to correct another's grammar, but I cannot let this pass. As Metullus already pointed out, the term "JEWISH CONSPIRACY" always appears in ALL CAPS! Get it right!

-Bri

[Spidey13]

This topic is much more amusing without the troll present.

Where is nicnac?

I kind of miss him. :(

That nicnac. What a nice little boy.