The Holocaust / Michael Shermer accused of fraud

[benze]

There is an organization called The National Association of Forensic Criminologists, Archeologists, Skeptics and Historians (web page - nafcash.com) that is offering a $100,000.00 reward for proving the "Treblinka Holocaust". They seem to be mocking Mr. Randi's million dollar challenge and are alleging that Dr. Shermer engaged in fruadulent scientific investingations when writing his book DENYING HISTORY.
Does anyone have any information on this organization or its president Greg Gerdes? This seems like it should be a very easy challenge to win, but that is what is bothering me. It just seems like it would be to easy. Does anyone have any ideas on how best to win this contest and shut these people up? Really, SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE should have the information to win this. If you do, please let me or Dr. Shermer know.
The skeptic community needs to get together and help Dr. Shermer refute these allegations. Thanks for your time and effort.

[CFLarsen]

There's nothing to refute, because the onus is not on Shermer, but on Gerdes.

I got an unsolicited email from Greg Gerdes a while ago with this "challenge". When I asked to see the evidence that the money actually existed, he started demanding that I proved him wrong re. his own claims first. I never saw any evidence that any money exists.

It sure didn't go to a decent looking website...

Same old manure.

:rolleyes:

[The idea]

Originally posted by benze
There is an organization called The National Association of Forensic Criminologists, Archeologists, Skeptics and Historians [...]
Maybe there isn't such an organization, just as there is no Landover Baptist Church.

[Soapy Sam]

There is certainly a website nafcash.com (http://nafcash.com)


It contains a report of a ground radar survey at Treblinka which found no evidence of disturbed soil , followed by an increasingly vituperative attack on Shermer , using lots and lots of UPPER CASE.

And we all know what that means.

The site itself does not seem to include the groundscan data apart from one scan profile, lacking scale or data and which could have come from anywhere.

The website is apparently on a server in the New Orleans area. It was down for a couple of days last week.
ETA-the radar scan was reportedly done by one R.Krege, assoiciated with this body-
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/
Mr. Krege hails from Canberra.

Perhaps some of our Australian members can supply further details?

[The idea]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
There is certainly a website nafcash.com (http://nafcash.com)
There is certainly a website landoverbaptist.org (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/)

[Soapy Sam]

Yes, I take your point. If this is a joke though, it's in rather poorer taste. It doesn't hurt to ask.

[The idea]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
If this is a joke though, it's in rather poorer taste.
A hoax is not necessarily a joke. A hoax could be part of a conspiracy. Anyone who claims to speak on behalf of "The National Association of Forensic Criminologists, Archeologists, Skeptics and Historians" could be asked to prove that such an organization exists. Once information about the alleged organization is provided, one can look for inconsistencies in the information.

[Soapy Sam]

I suppose a joke could also be part of a conspiracy.

It's perfectly possible neither of the organisations mentioned exists in any real sense. One or two people may be it. Possibly no ground radar survey was ever done.
However, the websites , manifestly do exist.
And rather nasty they are, in my view.


One possible way to find out more is to simply ask if anyone knows anything about the persons named therein. Which is what benze has done. That seems like a valid step to me.

Do you have any reason to think thisis a hoax? If so , do you have any theory about who would do this, or to what end?

[crimresearch]

Uhhhh..folks...

This so called organization, in addition to providing no information about itself on its own website and posting a bunch of holocaust denial tripe, claims to have the words 'Scientific Method' registered as a trademark.

:rolleyes:

[Dorfl]

Originally posted by benze
This seems like it should be a very easy challenge to win, but that is what is bothering me. It just seems like it would be to easy.
Wouldn't it be highly difficult? The Nafcash seem unlikely to accept anything short of actually digging up the graves in front of their eyes as evidence, which sounds illegal to me.

[Ceinwyn]

What's sad is that the first few links from google are anti-graves at Treblinka sites. So anyone looking it up will automatically assume...

eta: from the NAF site:

"Since Michael Shermer (the “Skeptics” Society founder who believes in *magically* disappearing Jews) has such disdain for REAL skeptics (i.e. - intelligent / logical people who refuse to believe that millions of Jews can vanish from the face of the earth without leaving a trace), "

Does he really think that there was no trace at all? "Magically disappearing Jews"??

That's not conspiracy, that's blinkered insanity.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/
Mr. Krege hails from Canberra.

Perhaps some of our Australian members can supply further details? Not really. A quick search turns up this, which is a bit old: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n6p-6_Adelaide.html

And their little quote from Lightfoot (Adelaide's founder) is so grossly misplaced and misrepresentative it's hilarious. They have literally taken an architect's quote and applied it to world politics. Wunch of bankers. :rolleyes:

Seems to be just a tiny little bunch of raving antisemite nutters, patting each other on the back and stopping only just a tiny smidgin short of shouting Heil Hitler! all the time. I don't recall them ever making the news, even when David Irving was publicly denied a visa recently. I guess they don't get out much. ;)

Incidentally, Adelaide has a long history of German immigration from the 1800's, but these families just aren't of this breed of stupidity.

[Soapy Sam]

Thanks, Zep. It does make interesting reading, though I find I have a strange urge to take a shower after reading it...

[GreyPilgrim]

Has no one noticed that the "Ground Penetrating Radar Scan" image is actually one of those Magic Eye 3d pictures?

[sophia8]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
There is certainly a website nafcash.com (http://nafcash.com)


It contains a report of a ground radar survey at Treblinka which found no evidence of disturbed soil , followed by an increasingly vituperative attack on Shermer , using lots and lots of UPPER CASE.

And we all know what that means.
"Before we all rush this guy, I gotta warn ya - he's got his Caps Lock on!"

[benze]

Hello everyone,
Please, lets be adults about this. I don't care about Mr. Gerdes's use of caps. I'm not interested in accusations about antisemitism. I'm not even interested in the money per se. And yes CFLarsen, there is something to refute (Lets not turn the skeptical method on its head, it will only make us look foolish).
Mr. Gerdes/nafcash are skeptical about the Treblinka Holocaust. They have offered a very convincing skeptical arugument along with an alternate thesis and they have put thier money where their mouths are. (As skeptics, isn't that what we are all supposed to be willing to do?). They are simply asking for proof. Lets not attack them for doing what we do all the time!
What I'm interesed in is finding flaws in their logic and historiography. If you think you have something that I can use, please let me know. If not, please keep the childish personal attacks to yourself. We are supposed to be above that.
I would like to have some solid facts and figures at my fingertips before I email this guy and attempt to win their challenge. Can anyone help me locate such facts and figures? Thanks.

[HarryKeogh]

Originally posted by benze
This seems like it should be a very easy challenge to win, but that is what is bothering me. It just seems like it would be to easy.

from the nafcash website...

"LOCATE THE ALLEGED MASS GRAVES OF TREBLINKA. YOU MUST SCIENTIFICALLY – FORENSICALLY PROVE THE NUMBER OF GRAVES, THEIR EXACT LOCATION, DIMENSIONS, VOLUME AND DENSITY. THE NUMBER OF REMAINS MUST TOTAL AT LEAST –
870,000"


yeah Benze, piece of cake...too easy! Prove the number of graves, exact location, dimensions, volume and density all for a reward of 11 cents per grave!

of course, assuming the 100,000 reward even exists.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by benze
Hello everyone,
Please, lets be adults about this. I don't care about Mr. Gerdes's use of caps. I'm not interested in accusations about antisemitism. I'm not even interested in the money per se. And yes CFLarsen, there is something to refute (Lets not turn the skeptical method on its head, it will only make us look foolish).

What, exactly, is there to "refute"?

Originally posted by benze
They have offered a very convincing skeptical arugument along with an alternate thesis and they have put thier money where their mouths are. (As skeptics, isn't that what we are all supposed to be willing to do?).

Yeah. Only problem is, Gerdes has offered absolutely no proof that he has the money. When I asked him for this - repeatedly - he dodged the question completely.

What does that tell you?

[HarryKeogh]

In early 1943, the pits were opened, the dead removed and the remains burned on open air grates. After the graves had been emptied, the ashes were mixed with soil and reburied. The camp was razed in November 1943 and serious attempts were made to erase all traces of its existence.

And of course there is testimony from German guards that mass extermination took place there. I'm sure the deluded fool who runs that website will say they were coerced.

The very nature of the challenge, that you have to find at least 870,000 graves shows how insincere it is. If I claim 2900 people died on 9/11 and you say you'll give me $1,000,000 if I can prove it by showing you 2900 bodies I'll blow you off. Bodies were incinerated in the twin towers.

The people in Treblinka were incinerated as well. It would be impossible to determine the number of graves let alone find the exact number that are claimed to have been killed there.

Why Shermer doesn't address this? Maybe he should. It's easy enough to do.

You see benze, people who believe in holocaust denial are inherently stupid and racist. They are usually some loser who has found the only way they can draw attention to themselves is by making outlandish claims. It's the same with people who claim we didn't land on the moon or the government knew about the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor. They are intellectually lazy and or seeking attention by making foolish claims that feed on people's mistrust of government, racist tendencies and other factors.

And that guy would generate more interest if he can prove the money exists like Randi can and does.

[benze]

"What, exactly, is ther to refute"? Well

1) Allegations that Dr. Shermer is a fraud.
2) Allegations that the Treblinka Holocaust is a hoax.

People, lets forget about the money for a moment. As skeptics, are we not supposed to see evidence for something before we believe? I cannot find fault with nafcash for asking to see such evidence. That does not make me a defender of nafcash.
I started out trying to come to the aid of Dr. Shermer and refute nafcash. However, I cannot give up common sense and the skeptical method and resort to childish emotionl arguments in trying to win the Treblinka challenge or the forensic challenge. I/we need scientific proof to do so (If only to shut them up and make them go away). I will worry about the money later.
Please, can someone somewhere tell me of a scientific investigation that proves the Treblinka holocaust?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by HarryKeogh
The very nature of the challenge, that you have to find at least 870,000 graves shows how insincere it is. If I claim 2900 people died on 9/11 and you say you'll give me $1,000,000 if I can prove it by showing you 2900 bodies I'll blow you off. Bodies were incinerated in the twin towers.

No, no, no. Bodies were not just incinerated. They were pulverized. Which is why they haven't identified all of the victims, far from it.

Originally posted by HarryKeogh
The people in Treblinka were incinerated as well. It would be impossible to determine the number of graves let alone find the exact number that are claimed to have been killed there.

You're absolutely right about the insincerity of this bogus "challenge". Finding graves of people burnt to cinders? Gerdes knows this can't be done, so he forms his bogus "challenge" after that.

Originally posted by HarryKeogh
Why Shermer doesn't address this? Maybe he should. It's easy enough to do.

You see benze, people who believe in holocaust denial are inherently stupid and racist. They are usually some loser who has found the only way they can draw attention to themselves is by making outlandish claims. It's the same with people who claim we didn't land on the moon or the government knew about the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor. They are intellectually lazy and or seeking attention by making foolish claims that feed on people's mistrust of government, racist tendencies and other factors.

Read Shermer's "Why People Believe Weird Things". Part 4 is about pseudohistory and Holocaust deniers in particular. Very illuminating.

Originally posted by HarryKeogh
And that guy would generate more interest if he can prove the money exists like Randi can and does.

He can't. Greg Gerdes is a liar. And a coward to boot.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by benze
"What, exactly, is ther to refute"? Well

1) Allegations that Dr. Shermer is a fraud.

Excuse me?? You want us to prove that Shermer is not a fraud? Don't you think it would be prudent, if you asked Gerdes for evidence that Shermer is a fraud?

Originally posted by benze
2) Allegations that the Treblinka Holocaust is a hoax.

Again, excuse me?? Why should we prove that it is not a hoax? Why don't you demand of Gerdes that he proves that it is a hoax?

Originally posted by benze
People, lets forget about the money for a moment.

Let's not, OK? They are the reason why Gerdes approached me in the first place, but when I called his bluff, he folded.

If the money is not there, there is no challenge. Right?

Originally posted by benze
As skeptics, are we not supposed to see evidence for something before we believe? I cannot find fault with nafcash for asking to see such evidence. That does not make me a defender of nafcash.

Why don't you ask for evidence of Gerdes' claims, instead of accepting his claims as valid without evidence?

Originally posted by benze
I started out trying to come to the aid of Dr. Shermer and refute nafcash. However, I cannot give up common sense and the skeptical method and resort to childish emotionl arguments in trying to win the Treblinka challenge or the forensic challenge. I/we need scientific proof to do so (If only to shut them up and make them go away). I will worry about the money later.
Please, can someone somewhere tell me of a scientific investigation that proves the Treblinka holocaust?

Let me ask you this: How will you find forensic evidence of a person burnt to cinders more than 60 years ago? In other words, how will you falsify Gerdes' claims?

If you can't, then you have a problem.

[benze]

No, people were not "incinerated." They were allegedly cremated. The difference is huge. Incineration suggests total ellimination of the evidence and requires an incinerator. This cannot be done through open air cremation.
Nafcash seems to have anticipated this argument and is also offering the forensic challenge. They will give $5,000.00 for proving one grave or one percent. Now, if that can't be done, I myself will have to doubt the veracity of the Treblinka Holocaust. I have to agree with nafcash that 870,000 people cannot simply vanish. There must be evidence of this if it happened.
Now, lets concentrate on locating that evidence. Anyone?
P.S. (will you people please take the time to read the entire nafcash site before you post? It seems that I'm defending them and I am not. I am however defending their logic and skepticism. Please take not of the difference. Please!!!)

[HarryKeogh]

Originally posted by benze
No, people were not "incinerated." They were allegedly cremated. The difference is huge. Incineration suggests total ellimination of the evidence and requires an incinerator.

if you can find me an incinerator that can get rid of 100% of the evidence of the item being burned I will give you (drumroll).....$100,000.

[Ipecac]

Hmm. This whole thread is starting to smell funny . . .

[benze]

Mr. Larsen seems to be leting his emotions overcome his reason. Lets forget about Greg Gerdes and nafcash for the moment. Lets forget about accusations of fruad. Lets forget about the Treblinka challenge. Lets forget about the money. And lets forget about calling people names (True skeptics have no reason to resort to such childish behavior and it only makes us look bad).
As a skeptic, I believe that if hundreds of thousands (lets forget about exact figures for the moment also) of people were cremated, their bones crushed and buried in mass graves, then even after 60 years that evidence would not only still exist it would be very easy to find. Does anyone (esspecially you Mr. Larsen) have any idea where I might find scientific evidence of this fact?
I'm not interested in calling anyone names, I'm not interested in money (for the moment anyway), I'm only interested in science and skepticism and I cannot find fault with someone asking for proof of anything. Lets at least find one grave. That I know we can do. So lets do it!
Lets not forget that if we can take this argument away from them, then we are helping to end Holocaust denial. Lets not let Mr. Gerdes and nafcash mock us anylonger. Calling them names only makes them stronger because they will just point to the fact we can't prove them wrong. They are using our own arguments against us. Lets put an end to it!

[treble_head]

Did anyone notice the name of this organization is NAFCASH?

Naff is british slang for something laughable or worthless
Cash... well we all know what cash is, don't we?

This just doesn't ring as coincidental to me.

[GroundStrength]

I nominate benze for the 'most transparent troll' of the year award.

[Ipecac]

As a skeptic, I believe that if hundreds of thousands (lets forget about exact figures for the moment also) of people were cremated, their bones crushed and buried in mass graves, then even after 60 years that evidence would not only still exist it would be very easy to find.

As a skeptic, I believe that you are wrong in this belief. Do you have any evidence to back up this assertion?

[Dubium]

Let's not forget that every second thing benze says is 'let's not forget'.

The Holocaust. Lest we forget.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Dubium
Let's not forget that every second thing benze says is 'let's not forget'.

The Holocaust. Lest we forget.

True. It is odd that he gets to decide what we can discuss and especially what we can't.

[CFLarsen]

benze,

Answer the questions, please:


Don't you think it would be prudent, if you asked Gerdes for evidence that Shermer is a fraud?

Why don't you demand of Gerdes that he proves that it is a hoax?

If the money is not there, there is no challenge. Right?

Why don't you ask for evidence of Gerdes' claims, instead of accepting his claims as valid without evidence?

How will you find forensic evidence of a person burnt to cinders more than 60 years ago?

In other words, how will you falsify Gerdes' claims?

[Kopji]

Maybe ashes were dumped in a river instead of buried?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial_examined

If the average weight of the ashes of a cremated person is 9 pounds, 6 million dead would weigh 27000 tons. That 'average' weight is surely high in this case, these people were skin and bones, many children.

(6 million times 9 pounds / 2000) = 27000 tons

A web search on '27000 tons' is enlightening. Pitifully easy to get rid of.

[benze]

Well CF, since I have been unable to find any evidence that I can use to challenge the boys at nafcash, and you have been more of a help to the holocaust deniers than you have been to me, its time to for me to contact Mr. Gerdes and ask him to help me understand this. I'm begining to understand why they are so confident about their claims and challenges.
As for Kopjiike's comment, like I said before, would you please take the time to read the website material before you offer advise or share an opinion? Some of you people are making the skeptical community look very bad.
One last thing to CF. The challenge is to find the mass graves of Treblinka and that is what my intrest is. The money is secondary. Your obsession with money and not the truth is very troubling to me. The challenge to skeptics is to find the truth and that is what I would like to do. I have not accepted any of his claims as valid to this point. I have only said his skepticism is valid. As to your belief that it would be difficult to find evidence of the murder of hundreds of thousands of humans after 60 years, I have one word for you. Archaeology.
If you can't get over the money issue, then let me challenge you to show me one grave, no money involved. I don't care how much remains are in it. We have to start somewhere and if I can't locate one grave Mr. Gerdes is going to tear me to shreds if I start challenging him.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by benze
Well CF, since I have been unable to find any evidence that I can use to challenge the boys at nafcash, and you have been more of a help to the holocaust deniers than you have been to me,

Questioning whether Gerdes has the money and demanding he support his claims is being "more of a help to Holocaust deniers?" WTF?

That's waaaay over the line, dude. You should really apologize.

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by benze
Well CF, since I have been unable to find any evidence that I can use to challenge the boys at nafcash, and you have been more of a help to the holocaust deniers than you have been to me, its time to for me to contact Mr. Gerdes and ask him to help me understand this. I'm begining to understand why they are so confident about their claims and challenges.

Considering this: In early 1943, the pits were opened, the dead removed and the remains burned on open air grates. After the graves had been emptied, the ashes were mixed with soil and reburied. The camp was razed in November 1943 and serious attempts were made to erase all traces of its existence.

Why would you expect to be able to find "graves"? At best, you might find the pulverized ashes of the victims. How would you go about proving that those were actually human beings?

Your last comment about them being "so confident about their claims" reveals more about you than you are admitting.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by benze
Well CF, since I have been unable to find any evidence that I can use to challenge the boys at nafcash, and you have been more of a help to the holocaust deniers than you have been to me, its time to for me to contact Mr. Gerdes and ask him to help me understand this. I'm begining to understand why they are so confident about their claims and challenges.
As for Kopjiike's comment, like I said before, would you please take the time to read the website material before you offer advise or share an opinion? Some of you people are making the skeptical community look very bad.
One last thing to CF. The challenge is to find the mass graves of Treblinka and that is what my intrest is. The money is secondary. Your obsession with money and not the truth is very troubling to me. The challenge to skeptics is to find the truth and that is what I would like to do. I have not accepted any of his claims as valid to this point. I have only said his skepticism is valid. As to your belief that it would be difficult to find evidence of the murder of hundreds of thousands of humans after 60 years, I have one word for you. Archaeology.
If you can't get over the money issue, then let me challenge you to show me one grave, no money involved. I don't care how much remains are in it. We have to start somewhere and if I can't locate one grave Mr. Gerdes is going to tear me to shreds if I start challenging him.

You haven't answered a single question.

[Bronze Dog]

Originally posted by Ipecac
Why would you expect to be able to find "graves"? At best, you might find the pulverized ashes of the victims. How would you go about proving that those were actually human beings?

Your last comment about them being "so confident about their claims" reveals more about you than you are admitting. This challenge sounds a lot like the Creationists who want every single living thing in the evolutionary tree accounted for in the fossil record.

[Ipecac]

The entire question of whether or not Treblinka was a death camp is ridiculous on its face. There are boatloads of evidence that this place existed and that it was used to exterminate human beings. Photos, Nazi documents, and eyewitness testimony are all available.

Arguing with a holocaust denier is like talking evolution with a Young Earth Creationist. Anyone who won't accept the mountains of evidence is clearly not capable of understanding the evidence or changing his mind.

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by BronzeDog
This challenge sounds a lot like the Creationists who want every single living thing in the evolutionary tree accounted for in the fossil record.

You beat me to the point!

[Spindrift]

Perhaps the site should be reported to the host directNIC. It does seem to be in violation of their terms of service:

You agree to not use the System to:

a. Upload, post, email or otherwise transmit any Content that is directed to inciting or producing imminent conduct that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable and is likely to produce such conduct;

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Spindrift
Perhaps the site should be reported to the host directNIC. It does seem to be in violation of their terms of service:

At this point, directNIC isn't going to care and has much bigger things to worry about.

(For those who don't know, directNIC is based in downtown New Orleans, and has admirably struggled to remain online and active through the hurricane, flood, and other unpleasantness.)

[m0nngis]

Originally posted by Ipecac
The entire question of whether or not Treblinka was a death camp is ridiculous on its face. There are boatloads of evidence that this place existed and that it was used to exterminate human beings. Photos, Nazi documents, and eyewitness testimony are all available.

Arguing with a holocaust denier is like talking evolution with a Young Earth Creationist. Anyone who won't accept the mountains of evidence is clearly not capable of understanding the evidence or changing his mind. Damn straight.

Call me cynical, but I would say that benze is a holocaust denier trolling... CFLarsen has explained why burden of proof matters, etc. and benze carries on like a lunatic, saying "I'm begining to understand why they are so confident about their claims and challenges"... WTH?

[nicnac]

I agree with Ipecac, this thread does smell funny.
An REF forum member asks for proof of something and gets atacked, but another member openly advocates for censorship (of a fellow skeptical organization no less), and not one word of protest? What's wrong with this picture?
If benze is not a holocaust denier, she's most likely well on her way to becoming one, because if she was just looking for information, guess who's giving it to her now?
Yessiree, something stinks to high heaven. But what exactly is that smell?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by nicnac
I agree with Ipecac, this thread does smell funny.
An REF forum member asks for proof of something and gets atacked, but another member openly advocates for censorship (of a fellow skeptical organization no less), and not one word of protest? What's wrong with this picture?
If benze is not a holocaust denier, she's most likely well on her way to becoming one, because if she was just looking for information, guess who's giving it to her now?
Yessiree, something stinks to high heaven. But what exactly is that smell?

The stench of pseudohistory. History is attempted to be rewritten with a clear political goal.

[The idea]

Originally posted by nicnac
[...] another member openly advocates for censorship (of a fellow skeptical organization no less), and not one word of protest? What's wrong with this picture?

Most of the protesting on this message board occurs after someone is actually censored or suspended.

Originally posted by nicnac
If benze is not a holocaust denier, she's most likely well on her way to becoming one, because if she was just looking for information, guess who's giving it to her now?

The same place benze was already getting information?

Originally posted by benze
P.S. (will you people please take the time to read the entire nafcash site before you post?

[...]

As for Kopjiike's comment, like I said before, would you please take the time to read the website material before you offer advise or share an opinion?



Originally posted by benze
There is an organization [...] (web page - nafcash.com) that is offering a $100,000.00 reward for proving the "Treblinka Holocaust".

[...]

Mr. Gerdes/nafcash are skeptical about the Treblinka Holocaust. They have offered a very convincing skeptical arugument along with an alternate thesis and they have put thier money where their mouths are.

[...]

They will give $5,000.00 for proving one grave or one percent. Now, if that can't be done, I myself will have to doubt the veracity of the Treblinka Holocaust.

[...]

One last thing to CF. The challenge is to find the mass graves of Treblinka and that is what my intrest is. The money is secondary. Your obsession with money and not the truth is very troubling to me.

It's okay for benze to repeatedly talk about the money, but if CF questions whether or not there actually is any money, then CF is "obsessed with money and not the truth"?

Originally posted by benze
Well CF, since I have been unable to find any evidence that I can use to challenge the boys at nafcash, and you have been more of a help to the holocaust deniers than you have been to me, its time to for me to contact Mr. Gerdes and ask him to help me understand this. I'm begining to understand why they are so confident about their claims and challenges.

Besides reading the entire nafcash site and creating and contributing to this thread, what has benze done to investigate the matter?

[The idea]

Originally posted by nicnac
[...] another member openly advocates for censorship (of a fellow skeptical organization no less), and not one word of protest? What's wrong with this picture?

Observation: nicnac, you have a grand total of one post on this message board and you are referring to nafcash.com as "a fellow skeptical organization"?

[Metullus]

What kind of investigation could, theoretically, be undertaken to satisfy benze/Gerdes? As I see it, one could excavate the Treblinka site and its surrounding environs to, say, ten feet or so, removing all the excavated material. One could then sieve the removed material searching for what? Surviving teeth and bone fragments greater than 1 mil in size? Nothing else that I can think of.

So such an excersize could only hope to uncover some tooth and bone fragments. How many teeth, how many bone fragments, would it take for benze/Gerdes to accept as proof of the existance of the Treblinka death camp?

A question you might want to ask Mr. Gerdes, benze.

I would imagine that the effort itself would cost well over $1M.

Does not sound much like an honest challenge to me.

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by Metullus
What kind of investigation could, theoretically, be undertaken to satisfy benze/Gerdes? As I see it, one could excavate the Treblinka site and its surrounding environs to, say, ten feet or so, removing all the excavated material. One could then sieve the removed material searching for what? Surviving teeth and bone fragments greater than 1 mil in size? Nothing else that I can think of.

So such an excersize could only hope to uncover some tooth and bone fragments. How many teeth, how many bone fragments, would it take for benze/Gerdes to accept as proof of the existance of the Treblinka death camp?

Exactly.. And I don't think anyone here is naive enough to believe that faced with these teeth and bone fragments, Gerdes would say, "Gee, I guess I was wrong. Even though I ignored THE HUGE AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE that already exists, this has convinced me. Treblinka really was a death camp."

He would simply say that the remains were animal remains, or the bones of a few Jews who died natural deaths at the camp, or they were the remains of the poor German guards killed in the Treblinka revolt. We've seen enough of these guys to predict exactly how he would react.

[Lisa Simpson]

I couldn't find any evidence that NAFCASH is a non-profit organization, at least not with the IRS. I searched the name as a whole, the initials, each individual term (forensics, criminologist, archeologists, skeptics) and couldn't come up with it. Anyone else who wants to try:

http://apps.irs.gov/app/pub78

Edited to add: I couldn't find any evidence that their name is trademarked either.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=re93g9.1.1

[Ducky]

All of the semantics of proof and who answers questions aside. Anyone notice fast brand new members are posting on this?

Statistically high to me, though I have no data to back that up. Though my gut says sock puppets or friends tipped off to the losing batte by the OP, and here to the rescue. This isn't unusual. How fast did Christian Dude show up to help Kathy out?

Something definately smells. It smells like trolling.


Edited to add:

I'm talking about those registered in sept 05. not those registered before that

[Soapy Sam]

As a JREF member of several years standing and a forum user of even longer, I also find some oddities in this thread.

One thing I don't find is much hard evidence for anything.

And before I go further- please don't reply with things I already know about neo-Nazis. My father destroyed his health fighting the real ones. He saw a concentration camp and described it to me long years ago. I carry no flags for these people. They are less than dog faeces on my shoe. Lets stick to what we know of the facts please.

The Nafcash claim is that the ground radar scan shows no sign of ground disturbance on the Treblinka site. If true, this renders all questions of cremation versus incineration or other means of disposal irrelevant. If the ground has not been disturbed, the claim of graves existing , or having existed, would appear to be false.

Now I can think of many kinds of evidence which might disprove this theory- examples are-
1.The scan was never carried out at all.
2.It was done in the wrong place.
3.The results have been misinterpreted, in error or deliberately.
4.The equipment used was used incorrectly or miscalibrated.
5. The equipment cannot give reliable dates on when soil was disturbed.
6.Trenches, or other evidence on the site do show that the soil has been disturbed.

I assume there is an authority which looks after the sites of the camps. If there was a scan, permission must have been obtained and results logged with relevant authority.


I stress all the above are my hypothetical examples of the sort of evidence I think benze was hoping to find here.

What she got instead was a lot of unhelpful rhetoric and implied accusations of being herself a supporter of these nafcash people.

Perhaps she is. It was not the impression I had though, and I'm puzzled by the lack of cooperation she has had here. In any case- I certainly do not support them and I'm repeating the question. Does anyone have actual data to refute these claims?

Claus- I think you know me well enough to know I'm sincere in asking this. Do you have any reason to suppose that benze's request for information to contradict nafcash's insinuations was anything other than genuine?

Also, why do you conclude that if there is no money there is no challenge? Even if Gerde was a spotty fourteen year old without a penny to his name, the claim he has made remains and is what is to be questioned.

Do you have any evidence that the groundscan at Treblinka is false or incorrect? Yes or no? That, in essence, is all that matters in benze's question.

[headscratcher4]

Just an observation from reading along with this thread...it would seem to me that the level of proof demanded by this alleged skeptical website (proof that Trablinka was actually a death factory for some vast number of Jews) would eliminate the possiblility that Hitler existed. In other words, there is essentially no body (save the claim that there is a portion of a skull in a Russian archive), so by that logic Hitler never existed. Trablinka never existed because Hitler never existed or Hitler never existed because Trablinka never existed.

Don't I win something for the logic employed here?

[Soapy Sam]

Not from me.
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Treblinka/introduction.html

What we are after is evidence that the ground radar scan exists, was done in the right place and is evidence of anything. I don't think anyone actually mentioned Hitler.

What we are looking for is evidence to back our opinion (I think widely held here) that nafcash are full of sh*t.

ETA- The fact that we believe that proves nothing. Which is what benze said, in my opinion quite rightly. (Her motives are unknown to me, so I assume they are what she said they are, until shown otherwise.)

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
What we are after is evidence that the ground radar scan exists, was done in the right place and is evidence of anything.

Uh, isn't that NAFCASH's job? Why is the burden on us to prove this, especially considering the aforementioned eyewitness, documentary and photographic evidence?

[Soapy Sam]

There is no burden on us ,Ipecac, on me, on you on anyone.
The question has simply been asked, does anyone have data or information to refute the claims of nafcash based on the Adelaide survey?

Yes, or no?

If the answer is "no", I would have expected us to say so, not to insult the person asking the question.

Nafcash insulted Shermer. I don't know much about him, but his name is generally seen in a positive light around here. Benze was seeking information to refute the attack on Shermer.

If we have nothing to contribute, that's fine. Let's just make that clear and move on.

[Chaosium]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Nafcash insulted Shermer. I don't know much about him, but his name is generally seen in a positive light around here. Benze was seeking information to refute the attack on Shermer.The more information we're provided from the original attack, the easier it would be to strike down.

[Soapy Sam]

True. But nobody was asked to strike anything down.
I don't think benze has anything more than is said in her posts here , or than can be found at nafcash.com.

(I assume if she had, she would have posted it.)
(ETA-The attack she refers to is on the nafcash.com site.
Which (I assume) is why she urged people to read it before questioning her motivation.)

[Metullus]

Point made & taken, Soapy.

I think there are two questions at issue here: the first being the reliability, credibility, and applicability of the Nafcash claim that ground radar scans show no sign of ground disturbance on the Treblinka site; the second being the nature of the Nafcash Challenge.

Without additional data I cannot judge the first. Given that all the credible evidence of which I am aware (and which predates the Nafcash claim) supports the existence of a Reinhard Death Camp at Treblinka, I must admit that I am not quick to embrace this "new evidence".

The Nafcash challenge can, I think, be addressed. If the actual history of the Treblinka Camp is reasonably accurate we would not expect to find graves of any type. When the camp was decommissioned the dead were exhumed from mass burial sites, the remains cremated, and the ashes disposed mixed with sand or soil and then buried. The site was then turned into a farm. I would not expect to find individual graves, neither would I expect to find any physical remains beyond those which would survive cremations and crushing. Not to mention dispersal and soil subsidence over 63 years.

What, then, would Nafcash consider acceptable evidence of the killings and thus quailify for the prize? What would be the cost of excavation to anyone attepting to meet the challenge? Why would anyone expend hundreds of thousands or more of actual dollars in an attempt to win $1M that might not exist? I submit that the credibility of the challenge is questionable.

[Soapy Sam]

Metullus- You highlight a valuable point which should be obvious to nafcash. The site of the camp was made into a farm after 1943 and yet the groundscan shows the soil has not been disturbed .

Interesting, is it not?

This is a hydroponic farm, perhaps?

As for the challenge- benze herself mentioned archeology. One standard technique would be to excavate a couple of trenches to maybe 1.5 metre depth. This would easily confirm soil disturbance and would involve rental of a ditch digger for a day- say $1000?

ETA- I imagine the maker of such a challenge assumes he is safe precisely because most authorities would not permit excavation on these sites. Ground radar is not overtly intrusive, so might be allowed. At this stage, we can't be sure it even happened.

Coming back to this- I realise I don't know the first thing about ground piercing radar. Seismic refraction and reflection yes, but this seems to be a much shallower technique. I'll go look it up.

I was hoping there might be someone here from Poland who actually knew the area. A long shot, I realise.

[Metullus]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
As for the challenge- benze herself mentioned archeology. One standard technique would be to excavate a couple of trenches to maybe 1.5 metre depth. This would easily confirm soil disturbance and would involve rental of a ditch digger for a day- say $1000?

I thought of that - but we are asked to demonstrate that 800,000 of so people were murdered there. How many remains would we need to establish that figure to the satisfaction of Gerdes? Such a study would, I am sure, satisfy most reasonable people, particularly if we were to locate remains in several different locations, but would this satisfy Mr. Gerdes? I suspect not.

[Soapy Sam]

Oh I don't suppose anything would satisfy him.
I don't take his "challenge" seriously at all. Whether it's an intentional mockery of JREF's I don't know. That seems to be one of benze's points, but there are lots of challenges out there.
I'm surprised that Claus Larsen considers the "challenge" as void if Gerde lacks the money to back it. To me the challenge is specious anyway. The only matter of import is the data of the scan. I'm inclined to suspect it was simply done in the wrong place, but that's begging the question.

To me the only issue is the evidence for soil disturbance. That's all he has and that's from this radar scan. The same scan profile appears on David Irving's site , (I googled "Ground piercing radar Treblinka), with a vertical scale to 6 metres. To my eye, below 3m it shows considerable disruption, but virtually nothing in the upper half metre. To me that suggests either the farmer never ploughed it or it has been rolled and compacted, but I have no training in interpreting such a scan.

[nicnac]

I don't know if Mr. Shermer is a fraud or if benze is a troll or if nafcash has the cash to back up their claim. But what I do know is, if the crushed remains of 870,000 people were put into huge pits (we're talking millions of pounds put into each pit) as alleged, and were then covered with a layer of soil, the remains would be incredibly easy to find. In some respects, it would be easier to find them today than in 1950.
If CFL says that Mr. Gerdes has to prove that Mr. Shermer is a fraud, then CFL has to prove that nafcash doesn't have the money. He can't have it both ways. And he seems to be forgetting about the forensic challenge. Does CFL need to see proof that nafcash has $5,000.00? I have more than that in my cash drawer.
Nobody has to proove anything as far as I'm concerned. But after reading the nafcash site, I do agree with them. I will not believe the story if nobody can present scientific evidence to prove it.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by nicnac
I don't know if Mr. Shermer is a fraud or if benze is a troll or if nafcash has the cash to back up their claim. But what I do know is, if the crushed remains of 870,000 people were put into huge pits (we're talking millions of pounds put into each pit) as alleged, and were then covered with a layer of soil, the remains would be incredibly easy to find. In some respects, it would be easier to find them today than in 1950.

Why? What would be found? How?

Originally posted by nicnac
If CFL says that Mr. Gerdes has to prove that Mr. Shermer is a fraud, then CFL has to prove that nafcash doesn't have the money. He can't have it both ways. And he seems to be forgetting about the forensic challenge. Does CFL need to see proof that nafcash has $5,000.00? I have more than that in my cash drawer.

Yes, I need to see proof of the money. Mr. Gerdes refused to show such evidence. Go figure.

Originally posted by nicnac
Nobody has to proove anything as far as I'm concerned. But after reading the nafcash site, I do agree with them. I will not believe the story if nobody can present scientific evidence to prove it.

Isn't it quite a coincidence that the moment NAFCASH is mentioned, people flock to sign up and defend this "organization"?

[Metullus]

Originally posted by nicnac
I don't know if Mr. Shermer is a fraud or if benze is a troll or if nafcash has the cash to back up their claim. But what I do know is, if the crushed remains of 870,000 people were put into huge pits (we're talking millions of pounds put into each pit) as alleged, and were then covered with a layer of soil, the remains would be incredibly easy to find. In some respects, it would be easier to find them today than in 1950.


Millions of pounds? How much identifiable remains would you expect from a single cremated body?

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by nicnac
Nobody has to proove anything as far as I'm concerned. But after reading the nafcash site, I do agree with them. I will not believe the story if nobody can present scientific evidence to prove it.

Photos, eyewitness accounts and documents aren't sufficient to persuade you?

Why would you put any faith whatsoever in the idea that a ground radar scan would be conclusive to demonstrate that there are no remains?

[Soapy Sam]

I agree the remains should be findable, provided one looks in the right place. (Always a problem in archaeology). Where you look may depend on what you want to find.

I find the cash matter irrelevant. To me the question of importance is simply, "Is this scan correct or incorrect"? Claus dismisses the challenge if there is no cash. I dismiss the challenge in either case. I do not dismiss the question.

However, if anyone at JREF had relevant information, I think it should have turned up by now.

I would add that we should not view this in isolation. Concentration camps existed. Extermination camps existed. There is much additional evidence for that. The sole relevant issue here is the scan data. If done correctly and in the correct place, it call the historic al record into question. However we have no actual evidence that it was done properly and in the correct place. I've seen one photo of a machine (Which could be a lawnmower for all I know) and a single section scan with no interpretation, which could have come from anywhere in the universe.

I do not consider this adequate to make Gerde's case. I would be happier though, if I had more data.

Claus- Who in your opinion is "defending" nafcash ?

ETA- After 60 years soil settlement and compaction should indeed make such pits visible to aerial photography, plant analysis or IR photography. Watercourses will have been affected too.

[Ducky]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Isn't it quite a coincidence that the moment NAFCASH is mentioned, people flock to sign up and defend this "organization"?


That is my point also. I find it very odd.

Though, to be fair, I think if discussion is warranted, fine. But my experience with the internet is that when you get an influx of newbies to post in a single topic...well you do the math.


Regardless, the OP seems to be a loaded question, and that would mean if claims are made (such as the money to back the challenge, and whether the scans are even verifiable) it is up to the claimant. Until new evidence is forthcoming, I would say that website has dubious evidence of everything it asserts.

[Soapy Sam]

Benze tried to raise this issue in an earlier thread, but was off topic and was largely ignored. She PM'd me , (and possibly others) asking how to start a new thread, which I explained. She signed that pm with a female name, which is why I have referred to her as female. Beyond that, I have no idea who she is.

I see no reason though, to doubt her basic claim- She was upset by the nafcash site's attack on Shermer and was asking if anyone here had data to refute that attack.

If anyone has reason to doubt that claim, I would be interested to hear that reason.

It was I, not benze who provided the link to nafcash. I don't think she knew how.

I agree the number of new posters in the thread seems unusual, but one of five calls benze a troll and the other four are largely neutral in their comments. There is no obvious cheering from the choir.

I'd repeat my earlier questions to Claus- or anyone else-
Do you have any actual reason to suppose benze's reasons for asking are anything other than honest?

Do you have any evidence to support or negate the claimed ground radar scan of Treblinka?

Why would Gerde's possession or lack of the money make any difference to his conclusion about Treblinka assuming he is correct about the scan data?

And again-Who is being accused of defending nafcash here.?

It better not be me.

[nicnac]

Soapy Sam is on the right track. I havn't read Mr. Shermer's book, but nafcash claims he stated that he looked at ground and aerial photographs in "proving" the Treblinka Holocaust. Nafcash has asked him to share that proof. As far as I can tell, Mr. Shermer has refused to show such evidence. Go figure.
Even if the ground radar scans are fraudulent, that still leaves us with the fact that (as far as I know anyway) no one has yet to scientifically prove something that is easily provable.
I haven't read all the links on the nafcash site that are apparently used to help them "prove" their point, but I have to say that the ones I have read have been rather convincing. And if all the eyewittness were lying in the Demjanjuk trial, how do we know they wern't lying eslewere?
And so far, the only proof that we have that nafcash doesn't have the money to back up their challenge is from CFL. What proof does he have of this? Most people I know have more money than that tied up in toys in their garage.

[Hutch]

Just something I noticed from persuing this thread....

'benze' stikes me as a gender-neutral name and reading the posts in this thread there is no indication of gender.

but nicnac, in (his/hers?) first post, says:

If benze is not a holocaust denier, she's most likely well on her way to becoming one, because if she was just looking for information, guess who's giving it to her now?

As Spock might say "Most curious"

As for the topic, I think if someone would simply post a location for the documentation and witness history for Treblinka (I will if I get the chance to work it the next couple of days), it would give benze something to read.....

But otherwise I tend to agree, the evidence for Treblinka is stronger than one questionable ground scan.

[Ipecac]

Here are a few:

PBS Link (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shtetl/treblinka/)

Treblinka (http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/treblinkaoverview.html)

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_extermination_camp)

Took me less than five minutes. Couldn't Benze have done this?

[grunion]

My troll-meter is flashing "Holocaust Denier" on this thread big time.

This site (http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/excavators.html) has photos from the album of Kurt Franz, commander of the Ukranian guard at Treblinka, of the digging of the pits for the mass graves. At his trial he testified that beginning in August 1943 "everything was leveled off off and lupins were planted..."

From the trial of Franz Stangl, Treblinka Camp Commandant: "Regarding the question of the optimum amount of people gassed in one day, I can state: according to my estimation a transport of thirty freight cars with 3,000 people was liquidated in three hours. When the work lasted for about fourteen hours, 12,000 to 15,000 people were annihilated. There were many days that the work lasted from the early morning until the evening . ."

Occam's Razor begs the question, "why would a Nazi commandant, in a romantic reminiscence of digging mass graves during his moment of glory, forge the evidence that he actually did so before coming to trial, and then, facing sentencing, overstate what he actually did?" One could concoct contrived scenarios to explain this irrational behavior, but by far the simplest one is, he did it.

This site (http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/imgs_treblinka/index.html) includes an image of an open mass grave in Treblinka showing bodies before they were exhumed.

Many eyewitness accounts describe the panic that gripped the Treblinka commanders throughout 1943, as Allied armies closed in on the camp, to disguise the activities of the death camp by exhuming remains and incinerating them. No reasonable person should require further proof than the preponderance of historical evidence, trial records, eyewitness accounts, and photos, to say that there was, with absolute certainty, mass killing and mass graves at Treblinka. Anyone who is dissatisfied with this proof and is demanding additional proof to refute some revisionist web site's "ground scans" has some other agenda to promote than that of skeptic.

[Metullus]

Yeah, well, grunion, thats all well and good, but you don't have a single picture showing 870,000 bodies.

What Gerdes wants is proof, you see...

[headscratcher4]

Without getting into the validity of the level of proof being demanded here, the skepticism of those who question what went on at Trablinka or any of the Nazi death camp is, fundamentally based on the belief that masses of people have lied and knowingly participated in a massive cover-up and historical fabrication for it to be true.

The claim is show me the bodies.

It is premised on a presumption that all of the eye-witness testimony about what happened at Treblinka and other camps is fabricated, either misguided or intentionally wrong. In short, anyone who survived Treblinka and said that they saw/participated in what happened in the camps was either a testimony by credulous fools or a knowing falsified history – usually for some political end

Such demands are premised on a postulation that all of the post war trials of camp personnel and their admissions were coerced and inherently unjust (either the retribution of the victors or the dirty work of newly installed communist regimes).

It is premised on the presumption that all the documentation -- such as train schedules, supplies, engineering designs, and aerial photography, etc. – has been manipulated by the victors to delude the masses into believing a holocaust has occurred and to slander the Nazi regime. (what were they doing at Treblinka; one is want to ask, just helping people “relocate” to some nicer place….).

Now, once you get to this point, you get to the question of why would someone dismiss 65 years of proof, trials, professional and academic scholarship of the highest order? And, than you immediately must determine that the poser of the challenge has fallen down the anti-Semitic memory hole. The only reason that such a false history could have been perpetrated is because the Jews, obviously, needed to perpetrate this huge lie, because – regardless of all of the documentation, study and eyewitness accounts from the last 65 years – you can’t show the bodies.

To play this game is inherently intellectually dishonest and necessarily leads to the conclusion that one is a troll. NO LEVEL OF PROOF will satisfy – save one type of proof (oddly, the one proof the perpetrators of this crime pretty well destroyed).

So, here is my challenge: before we get to the bodies, for $1,000,000, prove to me that all of the trials, testimony, eyewitness accounts and other accumulated documents are ALL foreigners, coerced, wrong, inaccurate, over-stated, etc.

In short, eliminate the practically undisputed accuracy and veracity of the current historical model before presuming to demand some new order of proof.

My 2 Cents.

[Soapy Sam]

Hutch- Interesting point, though some would accuse you of being sexist for making it. It has occurred to me that nicnac and benze might be the same person, but it may simply be that nicnac, like me, received a pm from benze which gave a female name. Until this board starts requiring public declarations of personal data, this is something we have to live with.

Grunion- May I ask why you didn't post the link with the open grave at Treblinka as a reply to the OP?
Of course, Gerde might dismiss it- it could be taken anywhere- but it seems to be at least a link to precisely the sort of proof benze was appealing for.

I feel we keep taking our eye off the ball in this thread.
None of us wants to be tarred by association with Gerde or his website, so instead of trying to factually answer the question, we are resorting to rhetorical denunciations.

Headscratcher's last post is an example. I don't question the sincerity, or the essential correctness,of what it says- but nor can I see how it helps answer the question.

Does anyone have any evidence which can be used to fault Gerde's claim?

So far I count
1. A linked photo , claimed to be at Treblinka. (This may lead to more such).
2. The inconsistency between the fact that the land, according to all sides, was farmed afterwards , yet there is no evidence of ploughing on the ground radar. (Untouched for millions of years, I think was the claim.)

Apart from a general expression of disgust for Gerde and so-called "revisionist" historians, do we have anything else at all?

[Ipecac]

I posted three links that are pretty well documented. What's wrong with those?

[Metullus]

How about an eye-witness:

"COL. AMEN: "5. On 1 December 1943 1 became Chief of Amt 1 in Amt Group D of the WVHA, and in that office was responsible for co-ordinating all matters arising between RSHA and concentration camps under the administration of WVHA. I held this position until the end of the war. Pohl, as Chief of WVHA, and Kaltenbrunner, as Chief of RSHA, often conferred personally and frequently communicated orally and in writing concerning concentration camps. . . ."
You have already told us about the lengthy report which you took to Kaltenbrunner in Berlin, so I will omit the remainder of Paragraph 5.
"6. The 'final solution' of the Jewish question meant the complete extermination of all Jews in Europe. I was ordered to establish extermination facilities at Auschwitz in June 1941. At that time, there were already in the General Government three other extermination camps: Belzek, Treblinka, and Wolzek. These camps were under the Einsatzkommando of the Security Police and SD. I visited Treblinka to find out how they carried out their exterminations. The camp commandant at Treblinka told me that he had liquidated 80,000 in the course of one-half year. He was principally concerned with liquidating all the Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto. He used monoxide gas, and I did not think that his methods were very efficient. So when I set up the extermination building at Auschwitz, I used Cyklon B, which was a crystallized prussic acid which we dropped into the death chamber from a small opening. It took from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people in the death chamber, depending upon climatic conditions. We knew when the people were dead because their screaming stopped. We usually waited about one-half hour before we opened the doors and removed the bodies. After the bodies were removed our special Kommandos took off the rings and extracted the gold from the teeth of the corpses."
Is that all true and correct, Witness?
HOESS: Yes."

"COL. AMEN:
"7 Another improvement we made over Treblinka was that we built our gas chamber to accommodate 2,000 people at one time whereas at Treblinka their 10 gas chambers only accommodated 200 people each. The way we selected our victims was as follows: We had two SS doctors on duty at Auschwitz to examine the incoming transports of prisoners. The prisoners would be marched by one of the doctors who would make spot decisions as they walked by. Those who were fit for work were sent into the camp. Others were sent immediately to the extermination plants. Children of tender years were invariably exterminated since by reason of their youth they were unable to work. Still another improvement we made over Treblinka was that at Treblinka the victims almost always knew that they were to be exterminated and at Auschwitz we endeavored to fool the victims into thinking that they were to go through a delousing process. Of course, frequently they realized our true intentions and we sometimes had riots and difficulties due to that fact. Very frequently women would hide their children under the clothes, but of course when we found them we would send the children in to be exterminated. We were required to carry out these exterminations in secrecy but of course the foul and nauseating stench from the continuous burning of bodies permeated the entire area and all of the people living in the surrounding communities knew that exterminations were going on at Auschwitz."
Is that all true and correct, Witness?
HOESS: Yes."

Rudolf Hoess Testimony (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/hoesstest.html)

Rudolf Hoess was at one point founder and Kommandant of Auschwitz (and its adjuct sute, Birkenau) and later a sort of Concentration Camp Inspector IIRC.

In his autobiography he took great pride in what he did.

[Metullus]

Another eye-witness, from the other side:

The Testimony of SAMUEL RAJZMAN (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/02-27-46.htm)

"MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: How long did you stay in Treblinka?

RAJZMAN: I was interned there for a year -- until August 1943.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: That means you are well acquainted with the rules regulating the treatment of the people in this camp?

RAJZMAN: Yes, I am well acquainted with these rules.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I beg you to describe this camp to the Tribunal.

RAJZMAN: Transports arrived there every day; their number depended on the number of trains arriving; sometimes three, four, or five trains filled exclusively with Jews -- from Czechoslovakia, Germany, Greece, and Poland. Immediately after their arrival, the people had to leave the trains in 5 minutes and line up on the platform. All those who were driven from the cars were divided into groups -- men, children, and women, all separate. They were all forced to strip immediately, and this procedure continued under the lashes of the German guards' whips. Workers who were employed in this operation immediately picked up all the clothes and carried them away to barracks. Then the people were obliged to walk naked through the street to the gas chambers.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I would like you to tell the Tribunal what the Germans called the street to the gas chambers.

RAJZMAN: It was named Himmelfahrt Street.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: That is to say, the "street to heaven"?

RAJZMAN: Yes. If it interests the Court, I can present a plan of the camp of Treblinka which I drew up when I was there, and I can point out to the Tribunal this street on the plan.

THE PRESIDENT: I do not think it is necessary to put in a plan of the camp, unless you particularly want to.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, I also believe that it is not really necessary.

Please tell us, how long did a person live after he had arrived in the Treblinka Camp?

RAJZMAN: The whole process of undressing and the walk down to the gas chambers lasted, for the men 8 or 10 minutes, and for the women some 15 minutes. The women took 15 minutes because they had to have their hair shaved off before they went to the gas chambers."


Later...


"MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Tell us, Witness, how many persons were brought daily to the Treblinka Camp?

RAJZMAN: Between July and December 1942 an average of 3 transports of 60 cars each arrived every day. In 1943 the transport arrived more rarely.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Tell us, Witness, how many persons were exterminated in the camp, on an average, daily?

RAJZMAN: On an average, I believe they killed in Treblinka from ten to twelve thousand persons daily.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: In how many gas chambers did the killings take place?

RAJZMAN: At first there were only 3 gas chambers, but then they built 10 more chambers. It was planned to increase this number to 25.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: But how do you know that? Why do you say, Witness, that they planned to increase the number of gas chambers to 25?

RAJZMAN: Because all the building material had been brought and put in the square. I asked, "Why? There are no more Jews." They said, "After you there will be others, and there is still a big job to do."

[Questioninggeller]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
Just an observation from reading along with this thread...it would seem to me that the level of proof demanded by this alleged skeptical website (proof that Trablinka was actually a death factory for some vast number of Jews) would eliminate the possiblility that Hitler existed.

True. The "skeptic/holocaust denier" needs to take a basic epistemology class.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
I'd repeat my earlier questions to Claus- or anyone else-

Geez, can a guy get some sleep from time to time??

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Do you have any actual reason to suppose benze's reasons for asking are anything other than honest?

Yes, I do.

1) Refusal to acknowledge that the onus is on Gerdes
2) Refusal to acknowledge that the money is not there
3) Refusal to ask Gerdes for his evidence

Those are typical believers' arguments.

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Do you have any evidence to support or negate the claimed ground radar scan of Treblinka?

If they want a ground radar scan, they should pay for it. Not get others to do it.

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Why would Gerde's possession or lack of the money make any difference to his conclusion about Treblinka assuming he is correct about the scan data?

It wouldn't necessarily. But since he refuses to realize that it is he who must prove his point, it merely adds up.

Checking if the money's there is a fairly good litmus test to see if they are at least sincere about that. If they are not, why should we take the rest of their claims sincerely? It's not as if anyone is forcing them to throw money into this.

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
It better not be me.

I'm not accusing you of that.

[Hutch]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Hutch- Interesting point, though some would accuse you of being sexist for making it. It has occurred to me that nicnac and benze might be the same person, but it may simply be that nicnac, like me, received a pm from benze which gave a female name. Until this board starts requiring public declarations of personal data, this is something we have to live with.

Sam, thanks for the info, was unaware of the pm. Still, for a new person to join and open a topic like this and then for another new person to join at the same time and support that other new person...well, one wonders....

I'll resume lurking and see where we go with this.

[grunion]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Grunion- May I ask why you didn't post the link with the open grave at Treblinka as a reply to the OP?
Of course, Gerde might dismiss it- it could be taken anywhere- but it seems to be at least a link to precisely the sort of proof benze was appealing for.

I feel we keep taking our eye off the ball in this thread.
None of us wants to be tarred by association with Gerde or his website, so instead of trying to factually answer the question, we are resorting to rhetorical denunciations.Does anyone have any evidence which can be used to fault Gerde's claim?

So far I count
1. A linked photo , claimed to be at Treblinka. (This may lead to more such).
2. The inconsistency between the fact that the land, according to all sides, was farmed afterwards , yet there is no evidence of ploughing on the ground radar. (Untouched for millions of years, I think was the claim.)

Apart from a general expression of disgust for Gerde and so-called "revisionist" historians, do we have anything else at all? To be honest I only saw this thread yesterday, and posted in response to the thread at large. I intended my post not to provide benze with the evidence s/he allegedly seeks, but as one example of the mountains of proof that are part of the historical record and are readily available to anyone with even a casual interest in knowing about the crimes that were perpetrated in Treblinka and elsewhere in Europe in the 1940's. I would also call your attention to this site (http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/) in which a historian, through careful examination of the evidence, begins a painstaking reconstruction of Treblinka and a thorough analysis of just about every known photograph of Treblinka.

The writer, Alex Bay, provides a discussion of denier tactics which include the very types of denial that I believe we are seeing perpertuated in this thread - the seemingly legitimate questioning of the findings of a fallacious study (that is of course unverifiable in this case) to cast doubt on the story as a whole if the proof cannot be found to his/her satisfaction. Of course Gerde will never be satisfied with the proof. And, interestingly we are also seeing, I believe, another tactic described by Bay - the creation of pseudonyms to make it appear that there are many voices instead of just one.

It is an exercise in futility to "fault Gerde's claim" and the hundreds like it. "The ball" of this thread is what we do have our eye on - childish arguments that "no amount of proof is enough." Sophistry and lies are used to cast doubt on any of the individual elements that make up the historical record of the Holocaust with the goal of being able to show that a massive Jewish conspiracy exists, akin to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The claim, in my opinion, is beneath contempt and not worth challenging.

Of course I don't mean to say that every claim anyone ever made about the horrors of the Holocaust is true on face value. New information should be analyzed to paint the most complete picture possible of what happened. The fact that it did happen, however, the fact that mass murders happened at Treblinka, can only be denied by someone with an anti-Semitic agenda. It is only taken seriously (even to counter it) by those wishing to publicize those claims.

[nicnac]

"no amount of proof is enough."?
So far no one has been able to offer one ounce of scientific evidence that the Treblinka story is true. There are two sides of this argument. Was Treblinka a death camp or a transit camp? According to Grunion, only an antisemite would demand physical evidence. I guess being a skeptic makes you an atisemite then huh?
There's that funny smell again!

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by nicnac
"no amount of proof is enough."?
So far no one has been able to offer one ounce of scientific evidence that the Treblinka story is true. There are two sides of this argument. Was Treblinka a death camp or a transit camp? According to Grunion, only an antisemite would demand physical evidence. I guess being a skeptic makes you an atisemite then huh?
There's that funny smell again!

Whoa, whoa...don't get ahead of yourself here.

Have you done any studying of the Holocaust at all?

[nicnac]

As a matter of fact I have. They say they have found mass graves at Sobibor, Belzec and Chelmno. This begs the question, then why can't they find them at Treblinka? And if in fact they have found mass graves at said sites, why doesn't someone publish the results and win nafcash's foresnic challenge?

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Whoa, whoa...don't get ahead of yourself here.

Have you done any studying of the Holocaust at all?

Let's start from a different place, take Tablinka out of it for a moment...do you belive that a Jewish Holocaust occured during WWII?

If not, it answers a lot of questions, if so, is it just that you have questions about Trablinka and the roll it may have played in perpetration of the hollocaust?

For instance, do you have questions about Tablinka, but believe the commonly accepted history/evidence regarding other Nazi killing centers?

In short, cut to the chase, before decrying the skepticism of people here, tell us what your bias and understanding of the matter is....

In short, your posts seem to indicate that there is no level of existing testimony, evidence, etc. that is going to satisfy you...

[grunion]

Originally posted by nicnac
So far no one has been able to offer one ounce of scientific evidence that the Treblinka story is true.Oh please, if you choose to stick your fingers in your ears and hum Nazi anthems while the evidence you claim to seek is all around you, that's your prerogative. But it's there. There are two sides of this argument. Was Treblinka a death camp or a transit camp?Yes, we so often hear there are two sides to every argument, as if both sides had merit. There are also the arguments that Treblinka was an alien landing pad, or a magnetic spot, or had Ley Lines running through it. Well, aren't they? Where's your proof that they aren't?According to Grunion, only an antisemite would demand physical evidence. I guess being a skeptic makes you an atisemite then huh?According to grunion, denying the validity of all of the existing evidence makes you an anti-semite indeed.

nicnac, or Gerde (if that's your real name), this topic cuts too close to the bone for me to continue discussing it intellectually. I lost many relatives to the Nazi Concentration Camps. As I do not wish to get banned from these forums for personal attacks, I will no longer respond to you on this subject.

[nicnac]

I have no bias, I'm a skeptic. And your confusing testimony with physical evidence. What I'm saying is that no amount of eyewittness testimony will convince me of anything if those same eyewittness can't or won't show physical evidence that backs up their claims when it is possible to show such evidence.
If it were not possibel to show such evidence, then it would be a differnt matter. But if the mass graves of Belzec, Sobibor and Chelmno have been found, then I want to see the physical evidence of the mass graves of Treblinka. Pretty simple huh?
Every eyewittness in the Demjanjuk trial was lying through their teeth. And these are the same people you want me to believe in determining if Treblinka was a transit camp or death camp? I don't think so. They're liars.
Like I said before, I agree with nafcash, If common sense says the physical evidence is there, then I want to see it. If nobody can show it to me, that make me skeptical. Pretty simple huh?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by nicnac
As a matter of fact I have. They say they have found mass graves at Sobibor, Belzec and Chelmno. This begs the question, then why can't they find them at Treblinka? And if in fact they have found mass graves at said sites, why doesn't someone publish the results and win nafcash's foresnic challenge?

Not so fast. Let's take this one step at a time, OK?

Do you admit that there were gas chambers and furnaces at Treblinka?

[nicnac]

Taking your ball and going home is a funny reaction for a skeptic being asked to show physical evidence that common sense says exists

[Metullus]

Curious. I don't recall that Rudolf Hoess testified at Demjanjuk's trial.

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by nicnac
Every eyewittness in the Demjanjuk trial was lying through their teeth. And these are the same people you want me to believe in determining if Treblinka was a transit camp or death camp? I don't think so. They're liars.

Every single person who provided eyewitness testimony from the late 1940's to the present testified at the Demjanjuk trial? Are you kidding?

Let's get this out in the open.

Answer Headscratcher's question: do you believe that a Jewish Holocaust occured during WWII?

[The idea]

Originally posted by Ipecac
Every single person who provided eyewitness testimony from the late 1940's to the present testified at the Demjanjuk trial? Are you kidding?


I suppose that you do have some justification for assuming that the question was rhetorical. However, you had the option of simply answering it as follows:

Every eyewittness in the Demjanjuk trial was lying through their teeth. And these are the same people you want me to believe in determining if Treblinka was a transit camp or death camp?
No, they're not the same people.

[headscratcher4]

I have no bias

You may be dead. You may be a Nazi. You may be a fool. You may be brilliant. You may be God incarnate...but a statement like that proves you are anything but a skeptic.

Mere skeptics, in my experience, are generally a very human and imperfect lot prone to blindnesses and bias who struggle with rationality and their own imperfect understandings.

Your comments suggest that you only struggle with self-rightousness...not the same thing as skepticism at all.

[Chaosium]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
You may be dead. You may be a Nazi. You may be a fool. You may be brilliant. You may be God incarnate...but a statement like that proves you are anything but a skeptic.

Mere skeptics, in my experience, are generally a very human and imperfect lot prone to blindnesses and bias who struggle with rationality and their own imperfect understandings.

Your comments suggest that you only struggle with self-rightousness...not the same thing as skepticism at all. Very true. The trick is not to be "100% unbiased", it's to be aware of the ever-present biases and preconceptions so that one can transcend them.

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by The idea
I suppose that you do have some justification for assuming that the question was rhetorical. However, you had the option of simply answering it as follows:

No, they're not the same people.

I know the question was not rhetorical. I was just trying to point out how obviously wrong it was.

[Soapy Sam]

Claus-

Geez, can a guy get some sleep from time to time??
No. Increase the Benzedrine.

quote:Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Do you have any actual reason to suppose benze's reasons for asking are anything other than honest?

Yes, I do.

1) Refusal to acknowledge that the onus is on Gerdes
2) Refusal to acknowledge that the money is not there
3) Refusal to ask Gerdes for his evidence

Those are typical believers' arguments.

Possibly. But why would a "believer" start this thread at all? My impression is of someone with limited internet knowledge, a genuine fan of Shermer, who is simply asking for support. Hard to tell of course. I'd want far stronger evidence before accusing anyone of believing in this particular folly.

quote:Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Do you have any evidence to support or negate the claimed ground radar scan of Treblinka?

If they want a ground radar scan, they should pay for it. Not get others to do it.

This is misdirection, Claus. By "they" I suppose you mean nafcash. Nafcash claim they already have the Adelaide data. I wondered if you happened to have any evidence to support or negate that data. I assume if you had, you would have shown it, so I guess you do not.

quote:Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Why would Gerde's possession or lack of the money make any difference to his conclusion about Treblinka assuming he is correct about the scan data?

It wouldn't necessarily. But since he refuses to realize that it is he who must prove his point, it merely adds up.

Checking if the money's there is a fairly good litmus test to see if they are at least sincere about that. If they are not, why should we take the rest of their claims sincerely? It's not as if anyone is forcing them to throw money into this.


(As I said, I start with the assumption that Gerde's challenge is spurious, but I don't think we can dismiss the scan data in the same way, if it exists and shows what is claimed. Which is why I was asking if you, or anyone, had actual evidence to refute it.)

Ipecac- Yes, you gave three links, but what I was seeking was physical evidence- ie photographic evidence of graves existing there or modern aerial photos which show pits- this would immediately call into question the claimed scan results. There might be such derived from those links, or others, but I keep trying to go back to the OP, which was asking for evidence to call Gerde's bluff. Simply repeating the non-revisionist history will not do that.
So far, I think the point Metullus raised is most important. If the land was farmed, there damn well should be evidence of it. That alone implies a fault in the ground radar data.

[Spidey13]

Has anyone else noticed that benze has had a single post since nicnac showed up? Just an observation...

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Ipecac- Yes, you gave three links, but what I was seeking was physical evidence- ie photographic evidence of graves existing there or modern aerial photos which show pits- this would immediately call into question the claimed scan results. There might be such derived from those links, or others, but I keep trying to go back to the OP, which was asking for evidence to call Gerde's bluff. Simply repeating the non-revisionist history will not do that.

I still don't see the point of focusing on this one data point. The evidence that Treblinka was a death camp is overwhelming. Why should we give any credence to this?

It's like trying to prove that men landed on the moon by having to show that there are really footprints there today. Showing the footprints would do the job, but there's plenty of other evidence that would do the job just as well and wouldn't require an actual trip to the moon.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by nicnac
Taking your ball and going home is a funny reaction for a skeptic being asked to show physical evidence that common sense says exists

Nobody is going anywhere. Least of all you.

Answer the question, please:

Do you admit that there were gas chambers and furnaces at Treblinka?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
No. Increase the Benzedrine.

Or we could all just change to the Danish time zone.

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Possibly. But why would a "believer" start this thread at all? My impression is of someone with limited internet knowledge, a genuine fan of Shermer, who is simply asking for support. Hard to tell of course. I'd want far stronger evidence before accusing anyone of believing in this particular folly.

Why do believers start threads here at all? To promote their ideas, of course.

I don't see any indication that benze shows any understanding - or willingness to understand - that the onus is on NAFCASH.

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
This is misdirection, Claus. By "they" I suppose you mean nafcash. Nafcash claim they already have the Adelaide data. I wondered if you happened to have any evidence to support or negate that data. I assume if you had, you would have shown it, so I guess you do not.

What's to "negate"? Jews gassed and burnt to cinders, then buried, then the camp is levelled, then many many years pass. If I went to my local cemetary, would I find remains of all supposed to be buried there?

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
(As I said, I start with the assumption that Gerde's challenge is spurious, but I don't think we can dismiss the scan data in the same way, if it exists and shows what is claimed. Which is why I was asking if you, or anyone, had actual evidence to refute it.)

Again, what's to refute? Their "evidence" is, indeed, spurious. One can always find things to question and build a case around.

[Soapy Sam]

Ipecac- I focus on this because it's the subject of the thread.

The radar data is the basis for Gerde's claim. The immense amount of evidence for the existence of the death camps is not relevant so far as he sees it, because he has his little report saying the ground at Treblinka is undisturbed (for millions of years, no less, glaciation notwithstanding.) Disprove the scan conclusions and he is hoist with his own petard.

Claus- Denmark has its own time zone?
Let me guess- 12th Century?:D

[grunion]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Disprove the scan conclusions and he is hoist with his own petard. The alleged "scan conclusions" have conclusively been disproven, by 60 years of testimony and research, as well as by the posters on this thread. Spend a few minutes on Alex Bay's site (referenced in my post above). Now ask yourself which is the more reputable source - nicnac/Gerde or Bay?

Everything we know about Treblinka completely contradicts the scan conclusions. Honoring the hoax by offering specific proof in a way that will satisfy the hoaxers not only is an exercise in futility but plays right into their warped plan to prove a conspiracy.

Accounting for anomalous data only becomes a worthwhile effort when that data can be shown to have been derived with integrity. Look at the source, Sam. Extraordinary claims require an extraordinary degree of evidence. As CF says, the burden of proof is on the claimant.

[headscratcher4]

I note the silence from Nicnac. It suggests to me that the only honest answer he could give to the question of whether or not he believes there was a holocaust would indicate is disavowed bias.

In short, he has no historical issue with Treblinka in particular, as opposed to the holocaust in general (i.e. "yes, there was a holocaust, but I have questions about what happened specifically at Treblinka), he seems to have a question about the entire claim that a holocaust occured. This, it would seem to me, puts him strongly in the deniers camp...and that very quickly moves away from scholarship issues to nutter territory.

If your there Nicnac, be honest and tell us where your bias is and where you are coming from...

[Soapy Sam]

Originally posted by grunion
The alleged "scan conclusions" have conclusively been disproven, by 60 years of testimony and research, as well as by the posters on this thread. Spend a few minutes on Alex Bay's site (referenced in my post above). Now ask yourself which is the more reputable source - nicnac/Gerde or Bay?


Grunion- The scan was reportedly done in October 1999.
If that is true, then it is not disproved by anything in the time between 1943 and 1999, unless we postulate time machines. Nor is it disproved by anything said by anyone here, no matter how sincerely they have said it.

The claim is not "exceptional". No ghosts, no UFOs. The claim is that a scan suggests the soil is undisturbed on a site believed to be that where graves were dug, opened and refilled. This is a wholly testable claim, of the sort dealt with by site investigation every day.

JREF is a sceptical site. If the scan shows what they claim, then we would have to accept that earlier belief or testimony is in error;- Which is why I keep banging my head on this most simple of points. Does anyone know where the scan data are available? Are they a matter of public record (as we might expect). Was the scan done in the correct location? Was it reviewed by reputable authorities?

I don't care which source is reputable. I care which is correct. My opinion of which is correct is probably identical to your own, but my opinion counts for nothing in disproving the nafcash claim.
I would like to see the scan report and I would like to see records of analysis of the data by a competent, but disinterested source.

That was what I hoped someone here might have knowledge of.

It appears not. All we can say then is that we can't explain the groundscan conclusions, because we have not seen the original report and don't trust Gerde's version of the conclusions. That's fine, but totally fails to answer the question of the OP.

[ShowMe]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam

JREF is a sceptical site. If the scan shows what they claim, then we would have to accept that earlier belief or testimony is in error;- Which is why I keep banging my head on this most simple of points. Does anyone know where the scan data are available? Are they a matter of public record (as we might expect). Was the scan done in the correct location? Was it reviewed by reputable authorities?

This is my position as well. Randi often says that his disbelief makes no difference in the testing of far-out claims; if someone does not believe in the holocaust it won't change the scans findings one bit.

But there is that huge "if";IF the scans show what they claim THEN we have some other tests to run.

If they're only stating they have this data, but it's in a super secret location shielded by lead to keep the CIA thought beams from penetrating, then we have a typical loon.

ETA: Looked through the web site of nafcash. It's a hard sight to read; lots of flash, capital letters, etc.

The only "Evidence" they provide for their claim is a picture they say is a ground radar image, and an ariel view of what they say is Treblinka today.

So yes, they need to produce the actual ground radar report, and all details associated with it. Who did it? When was it done? What areas were scanned? Is there any archivial proof that this took place at the Treblinka camp?

Showing me a picture that could have been culled from a stack of internet photos doesn't impress me. And the fact that Treblinka looks like a park, from 20,000 feet or so and after 60 odd years isn't exactly earth-shattering.

As for the challenge it's ridiculous on its face.

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by ShowMe
This is my position as well. Randi often says that his disbelief makes no difference in the testing of far-out claims; if someone does not believe in the holocaust it won't change the scans findings one bit.

But there is that huge "if";IF the scans show what they claim THEN we have some other tests to run.

If they're only stating they have this data, but it's in a super secret location shielded by lead to keep the CIA thought beams from penetrating, then we have a typical loon.

ETA: Looked through the web site of nafcash. It's a hard sight to read; lots of flash, capital letters, etc.

The only "Evidence" they provide for their claim is a picture they say is a ground radar image, and an ariel view of what they say is Treblinka today.

So yes, they need to produce the actual ground radar report, and all details associated with it. Who did it? When was it done? What areas were scanned? Is there any archivial proof that this took place at the Treblinka camp?

Showing me a picture that could have been culled from a stack of internet photos doesn't impress me. And the fact that Treblinka looks like a park, from 20,000 feet or so and after 60 odd years isn't exactly earth-shattering.

As for the challenge it's ridiculous on its face.

Well said. Until nafcash provides the background on this "scan" then there's nothing for *us* to do. We can't disprove the scan without knowing more about it.

[nicnac]

So Sorry for not being here to answer your questions 24/7, but unlike some of you, I have a life.
As to the question of weather I believe taht there were gas chambers at Treblinka, I'm withholding judgment on that until someone can show me physical evidence of mass graves that common sense says is there. As nafcash says, no mass graves = no gas chambers = no Treblinka Holocaust.
As to the relevence of ground radar scans, I believe that is secondary to the fact that no one can offer an ounce of physical evidence (did I mention that common sense demands that it is there?) of mass graves. Even if the scans were fraudulent, it doesn't change the fact that no one can show me any physical evidence. The more I hear people say that the evidence is overwhelming, the more I laugh. It's contradictory. The more evidence that someone claims there is, the easier it should be to show the physical evidence.
As to my bias, of course I am human and prone to bias. My point was I am not an antisemite, I'm a skeptic. How very odd it is that I have to defend my skepticism on the REF forum.

[headscratcher4]

Artfully done...let's get to the larger issue: do you believe there was a Nazi-lead holocaust?

[nicnac]

I have something else to add about a comment that I made earlier that noboby picked up on. Why, if the mass graves have allegedly been found at Belzec, Chelmno and Sobibor, (which proves that the evidence still exists, right?) can't they be found at Treblinka? Again, if anyone believes that the ground radar scans mentioned by nafcash are false, then why don't the same people who located the mass graves at the other camps locate the mass graves of Treblinka and for the same reasons and with the same methods? Doesn't it seem odd to anyone else that only three out of the four camps have been scientifically proven?
And what of Andrzej Kola's book Belzec: "The Nazi camp for Jews in light of Archaeological sources"? All Mr. Shermer has to do (or anyone else for that matter) to win the belzec forensic challenge and find out if nafcash is legit, is to write and publish an article length synopsis of the results of Kolas investigation. All of the work has already been done!
But of course, it's just bias and antisemitic of me to point out these facts and ask questions like this isn't it?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by nicnac
As to the question of weather I believe taht there were gas chambers at Treblinka, I'm withholding judgment on that until someone can show me physical evidence of mass graves that common sense says is there. As nafcash says, no mass graves = no gas chambers = no Treblinka Holocaust.

No, no, no. You are not getting off that easily.

The question was not about mass graves that NAFCASH says was never there. It was:

Do you admit that there were gas chambers and furnaces at Treblinka?

You say you are a skeptic. That means you have - presumably - looked in the history of Treblinka, and not merely gobbled up what NAFCASH says, uncritically. That means that you should be able to answer the question:

Gas chambers and furnaces. Were they there, yes or no?

[ShowMe]

Originally posted by nicnac
As to the relevence of ground radar scans, I believe that is secondary to the fact that no one can offer an ounce of physical evidence (did I mention that common sense demands that it is there?) of mass graves.

On the contrary the ground radar scans are pivotal to this particular argument.

The site is attempting to dispute proof shown via the Kurt Franz pictures, testimony in the Eichmann Trial, eyewitness testimony of the surivivors, etc. All of which we, as skeptics, consider "overwhelming".

That is why the burden of proof lies with the people who claim that this never took place. If you're trying to disprove all that evidence you need something more than a color picture you claim is a GBR taken at Treblinka.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by nicnac
I have something else to add about a comment that I made earlier that noboby picked up on. Why, if the mass graves have allegedly been found at Belzec, Chelmno and Sobibor, (which proves that the evidence still exists, right?) can't they be found at Treblinka? Again, if anyone believes that the ground radar scans mentioned by nafcash are false, then why don't the same people who located the mass graves at the other camps locate the mass graves of Treblinka and for the same reasons and with the same methods? Doesn't it seem odd to anyone else that only three out of the four camps have been scientifically proven?
And what of Andrzej Kola's book Belzec: "The Nazi camp for Jews in light of Archaeological sources"? All Mr. Shermer has to do (or anyone else for that matter) to win the belzec forensic challenge and find out if nafcash is legit, is to write and publish an article length synopsis of the results of Kolas investigation. All of the work has already been done!
But of course, it's just bias and antisemitic of me to point out these facts and ask questions like this isn't it?

It is quite alright to ask questions.

Do you think you could answer some yourself? Focus on those already waiting for your answer, instead of firing off question after question.

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by nicnac
As to the question of weather I believe taht there were gas chambers at Treblinka, I'm withholding judgment on that until someone can show me physical evidence of mass graves that common sense says is there. As nafcash says, no mass graves = no gas chambers = no Treblinka Holocaust.

Ooh, nice try. So close. But not valid. There very well could have been gas chambers there and no mass graves. I'm not saying there weren't, but the existence of the mass graves is completely independent of the existence of the gas chambers.

[ShowMe]

Originally posted by nicnac
All Mr. Shermer has to do (or anyone else for that matter) to win the belzec forensic challenge and find out if nafcash is legit, is to write and publish an article length synopsis of the results of Kolas investigation

Actually, no. As per the instructions:

LOCATE THE ALLEGED MASS GRAVES OF TREBLINKA. YOU MUST SCIENTIFICALLY – FORENSICALLY PROVE THE NUMBER OF GRAVES, THEIR EXACT LOCATION, DIMENSIONS, VOLUME AND DENSITY. THE NUMBER OF REMAINS MUST TOTAL AT LEAST –

870,000


Remains of people that, per evidence and testimony, were dug up...burned...sifted through...the remaining bones crushed & pulverized by hand, and the ashes scattered. The graves were filled in, raised, and the land scaped.

"Number of graves, their exact location, dimensions, volume and density". I'm willing to bet you couldn't do this a cemetary that was hit by the flooding and hurricane in New Orleans, and that's with modern record keeping and full cooperation.

[nicnac]

If the mass graves of Belzec were found, then it should be even easier to locate the mass graves of Treblinka (or should I more correctly say, the huge pits that were allegedly filled with crushed bone and ash and covered over with a layer of soil, just like all the eyewittness say happened, including all the lying eyewittness at the Demjanjuk trial).
Even if the crushed bone and ash were put elsewere (wich would be contradicting all the eyewittness and thus antisemetic), a ground radar scan would be abel to detect the ground disturbance from the original graves. Even if the gpr that nafcash sites is fraudulent, then another gpr scan could easily and cheaply be done to settle this issue. Why hasn't this been done? Again, if they have located the mass graves of the other camps, that tells us that the evidence still exists, does it not? I have to run. Please don't get your panties in a bundle if I don't answer any questions for a while. I'll be back!

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by nicnac
If the mass graves of Belzec were found, then it should be even easier to locate the mass graves of Treblinka (or should I more correctly say, the huge pits that were allegedly filled with crushed bone and ash and covered over with a layer of soil, just like all the eyewittness say happened, including all the lying eyewittness at the Demjanjuk trial).
Even if the crushed bone and ash were put elsewere (wich would be contradicting all the eyewittness and thus antisemetic), a ground radar scan would be abel to detect the ground disturbance from the original graves. Even if the gpr that nafcash sites is fraudulent, then another gpr scan could easily and cheaply be done to settle this issue. Why hasn't this been done? Again, if they have located the mass graves of the other camps, that tells us that the evidence still exists, does it not? I have to run. Please don't get your panties in a bundle if I don't answer any questions for a while. I'll be back!

That's great! I trust you will then answer this question:

Do you admit that there were gas chambers and furnaces at Treblinka?

[ShowMe]

Originally posted by nicnac
Even if the gpr that nafcash sites is fraudulent, then another gpr scan could easily and cheaply be done to settle this issue. Why hasn't this been done?

We have no proof th