Cryogenically "tempered" engine getting double fuel efficiency

[Spider-Dan]

This seems to be superstitious nonsense to me, but maybe someone with a stronger scientific background can explain exactly why this is bogus:

http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?s=3390503

There is a man who fills up his tank once every two months. One tank of gas, literally, lasts him two months. He is freezing the price of gas by freezing something else.

People complain about the price of gas and we are all spending dearly to stay on the road these days. The money we spend on gas seems to burn up faster than the fuel.

While there may be little rhyme or reason to why the prices are on a perpetual roller-coaster, there is one man who has found a way to freeze them in their tracks, literally.

David Hutchison is a Cryogenics expert. He built this Cryo-Process himself. He runs a business out of his garage where he cryogenically tempers all kinds of metals. He submerges them in a frozen tank of nitrogen vapor that is 300 degrees below zero.

David says, “During that time, at minus 300 degrees, the molecules slow down. Then they reorganize themselves. That's when the actual chemical change happens.�

Hutchison cryogenically tempers machine parts, tools, golf clubs and even razors. He says it makes them last three to five times longer.

A few years ago he began an experiment on his hybrid Honda, freezing the engine components. The results were a fuel-efficiency dream.

David Hutchison says, “You should expect a “Cryo'd� engine to last anywhere from 600,000 to 1 million miles without wearing out.�

A hybrid Honda typically gets really great gas mileage anyway, around 50 miles to the gallon, but David Hutchison's cryogenically tempered engine has been known to get close to 120 miles a gallon.

“It's just a very efficient vehicle.� Hutchison says,

Racers have picked up on David's trick of cryogenically freezing car parts. It is now widely accepted among NASCAR and Indy-car racers.

Hutchison has no plans of taking his Honda to the track. His prize is in his pocketbook.

David says, “I thought about selling it, but gas prices keep going up. So, I thought, I'm not going to sell it.�

Hutchison tells us cryogenically tempering car parts has more benefits than just fuel efficiency. He freezes all of the brake rotors at a car dealership near his home in Missouri. It makes them last three to five times longer.

[Bob Klase]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
This seems to be superstitious nonsense to me, but maybe someone with a stronger scientific background can explain exactly why this is bogus:

Certainly seems bogus. The article says

"David Hutchison says, “You should expect a “Cryo'd� engine to last anywhere from 600,000 to 1 million miles without wearing out.�

Why should you expect that? Where's the evidence? How many miles has he actually put on a "cryo'd" engine?

David Hutchison's cryogenically tempered engine has been known to get close to 120 miles a gallon.

Been known? What does it really get? Who's tested it?

The article is full of claims made by "Dave", but why would anyone just take his word for it? (Other than a reporter looking for a story who doesn't really care if it's true or not).

[geni]

David says, “During that time, at minus 300 degrees, the molecules slow down. Then they reorganize themselves. That's when the actual chemical change happens.�

Assuming he mean ~88K I can't see why cooling stuff should any effect. You are takeing energy out of a system then you are expecting chemical change? You can get chemical change at that tempreture but it mostly involves super unstable systems. Not stuff as stable as solid metals.

[princhester]

Things are going to get pretty complicated at this point, but bear with me. There is an explanation, but it's going to take a minute and you may find it a little shocking.

OK.

You sitting down?

Here it comes.

"The story is not true. The guy is lying."

Whew. Well, I'm glad that's over with.

Hang around and next week I may hit you with my explanation for stories about people who claim to be deities, people who have built time machines and people who have fairies living in their garden. Those explanations may bear some resemblance to the explanation just given, but there may be some subtle differences. In wording and so on. The gist will be about the same.

[Matabiri]

Originally posted by geni
Assuming he mean ~88K I can't see why cooling stuff should any effect. You are takeing energy out of a system then you are expecting chemical change? You can get chemical change at that tempreture but it mostly involves super unstable systems. Not stuff as stable as solid metals.

You might get new phases formed, but they'd revert as soon as you warmed the engine back up.

And why isn't he selling it? He could make more money that way than by telling a reporter about it and letting everyone know for free...

[geni]

Originally posted by Matabiri
You might get new phases formed,


In a metal? By the time you are down to room temp I would assume that you would pretty much already be in the optinum packing structure.

[LTC8K6]

Yes, cryogenically treating metal is an accepted way of making it more durable. This guy certainly didn't think of it.

The fuel economy stuff is just a lie.

They are mixing a legitimate process with a bogus claim to give the claim credibility that it doesn't deserve.

We already have engines that last a million miles anyway. We've had them for decades. They're called diesels.

[jmercer]

Originally posted by princhester
Things are going to get pretty complicated at this point, but bear with me. There is an explanation, but it's going to take a minute and you may find it a little shocking.

OK.

You sitting down?

Here it comes.

"The story is not true. The guy is lying."

Whew. Well, I'm glad that's over with.

Hang around and next week I may hit you with my explanation for stories about people who claim to be deities, people who have built time machines and people who have fairies living in their garden. Those explanations may bear some resemblance to the explanation just given, but there may be some subtle differences. In wording and so on. The gist will be about the same.

:clap:

I do believe I've found my nomination for post of the month. :)

[Mercutio]

I know that there are places that advertise that they cryogenically treat brass musical instruments. I also know that musicians can be very superstitious about their horns, but that instrument makers also spend a great deal of time and money looking for real differences. I have no idea whether the cryo treatment is pure superstition or makes a real difference. (A professional trumpet player friend swears by it, but I do not swear by him...)

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
A hybrid Honda typically gets really great gas mileage anyway, around 50 miles to the gallon, but David Hutchison's cryogenically tempered engine has been known to get close to 120 miles a gallon.
Big deal! I've done better than that in my Jeep Grand Cherokee w/ a 4.7L V8... of course, I was going down a mountain at the time.

[Zep]

I reckon I could get any car at all from one side of the USA to the other on only a half-pint of gas.






4oz to drive it onto the train, and 4oz to drive it off. :)

[Psiload]

David Hutchison?

John Hutchison?

http://www.americanantigravity.com/hutchison.html

Brothers?

[Matabiri]

Originally posted by geni
In a metal? By the time you are down to room temp I would assume that you would pretty much already be in the optinum packing structure.

Oh yeah - have a look at the phase diagram for steels, for example. High temperatures are gamma-phase FCC (face centred cubic - austenite). As the temperature drops they undergo transformations to alpha-phase BCC (body centred cubic - martensite, bainite, etc.).

Shape-memory metals are based on solid-state phase transformations, too.

These transformations are not (at least, not that I can bring to mind) reconstructive, they're displacive. That is, the atoms only move a little bit rather than rearranging over a large length scale. This results in shape changes - the image below is the surface of a piece of steel, polished flat in the austenite phase, and then transformed into bainite. The bainite forms as sheets and is accompanied by a shear shape change, resulting in ridges appearing on the surface on the steel.

http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/holly.JPG

(Read all about bainite transformations here (http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/newbainite.html), if you're really keen.)

Edit for spelling

[Spidey13]

I don't know if they still make them, but they used to sell guitar strings that had been frozen, supposedly making them stronger and/or sound better. I never used them myself, but I always wondered if there was any validity to it.

[luchog]

I've read a bit about cryo-tempering in the past, mostly as it applies to knife- and sword-smithing. It does result in a tougher, more durable steel; but needs to be part of the initial tempering process, as part of the quench phase. Using it on pre-tempered room-temperature is of much more limited value. It's also far too costly and difficult to use as part of a production run; so it is only used on individual or small-batch custom pieces (like race cars).

Here's some info I was able to find: http://lennon.pub.csufresno.edu/~rlk16/cryo.html

As for increasing fuel efficiency? That's well into the realm of the paranormal. It could certainly increase engine longevity; but that's about it.

[MoonDragn]

Wouldn't the engine parts deform when subjected to that kind of temperature drop? Also when it is melted back to normal temperature wouldn't it develop stress fractures? I know machine tooled parts made of steel are already tempered (heated and then frozen) to increase their tensil strength, but aren't car parts die casted?

Also, how does one increase fuel efficiency with these frozen parts? If the only increase is in durability, it just makes it last longer, not more efficient. If what he claims is true, there must be some other factor involved that was not mentioned in the article.

[luchog]

Originally posted by MoonDragn
I know machine tooled parts made of steel are already tempered (heated and then frozen) to increase their tensil strength, but aren't car parts die casted?

Yes, some are; but they're also tempered as well. Others parts have to be forged.

Also, how does one increase fuel efficiency with these frozen parts?
One doesn't. That claim was pure BS.

[tube]

This story sounds to me like an updating of the "miracle" carburetor stories that became popular during the energy crunch of the 1970's. Being that many people today have never driven a car with a carburetor, you have to update your claims!

I had an ex-friend try to pull the "80mpg carburetor" story on me once, until I slammed him with the laws of thermodynamics.

[glee]

Well here's the proof:

David Hutchison is a Cryogenics expert. He built this Cryo-Process himself. He runs a business out of his garage where he cryogenically tempers all kinds of metals. He submerges them in a frozen tank of nitrogen vapor that is 300 degrees below zero.

David says, “During that time, at minus 300 degrees, the molecules slow down. Then they reorganize themselves. That's when the actual chemical change happens.�

Hutchison cryogenically tempers machine parts, tools, golf clubs and even razors. He says it makes them last three to five times longer.

A few years ago he began an experiment on his hybrid Honda, freezing the engine components. The results were a fuel-efficiency dream.

David Hutchison says, “You should expect a “Cryo'd� engine to last anywhere from 600,000 to 1 million miles without wearing out.�

A hybrid Honda typically gets really great gas mileage anyway, around 50 miles to the gallon, but David Hutchison's cryogenically tempered engine has been known to get close to 120 miles a gallon.

“It's just a very efficient vehicle.� Hutchison says,

Racers have picked up on David's trick of cryogenically freezing car parts. It is now widely accepted among NASCAR and Indy-car racers.

Hutchison has no plans of taking his Honda to the track. His prize is in his pocketbook.

David says, “I thought about selling it, but gas prices keep going up. So, I thought, I'm not going to sell it.�

Hutchison tells us cryogenically tempering car parts has more benefits than just fuel efficiency. He freezes all of the brake rotors at a car dealership near his home in Missouri. It makes them last three to five times longer. [/B][/QUOTE]

What a great saving in time - no more silly scientific testing. :rolleyes:
Just ask David!

[Hutch]

Originally posted by Psiload
David Hutchison?

John Hutchison?

http://www.americanantigravity.com/hutchison.html

Brothers?

Ummmm, just ran across this thread, and for the record, I am NOT either of those two Hutchison's....although the above does incorporate both my middle and first names, which i find moderately creepy....:eek: :eek: :eek:

[bruto]

Assuming Mr. Hutchison cryogenically treated the parts of his engine, we must also assume that he disassembled the engine and reassembled it. While I suspect the huge mileage claims are bogus, it's at least possible that careful finishing and hand assembly could increase the efficiency of even a Honda engine somewhat. In any case, we can't be sure it wasn't modified in the process, and that some gains might be due to other factors.

A dealer braving the warrantee and liability issues to have a routine profit-making spare part cryogenically treated?

The whole article reeks of bogosity.

[casebro]

Lets keep in mind that Hutch's Honda is a hybrid, and that there are efficiency gains in freezing electic components. Soo, what if Hutch built an ice chest around his electic motor/generator, put a nitrogen tank in his trunk, and keeps his motor/generator froze? He sure would have all the components around his shop. Then, he adds extra batteries, like the guy who gets 350 mpg in his hybrid because he uses it as an electric car?

OR, skip the onboard cryos all together. Hutch is a known tinkerer, did he just add some batteries like the 350mpg guy, and not tell us? He advances his commercial process, but has a hidden source of power- the plug ? Shades of "Free Energy" demonstrations ?

I tried Googling this, but only got the one article, many times. No other info, no mention of the physics of his improved milage...

[oglommi]

bogus all together. petrol does not burn at minus 300 degrees. All material has a point where it burns by self ignition and another temprature were it burn by being self ignition. Petrol does not burn below -60 degrees centigrade. Diesel selfignite at about 200 degrees centigrade wich is done by compressing the diesel in diesel engines.

This is because that liquid does not burn only gas do. At minus 60 degrees petrol stop evaporating and it does not burn. This can easily be tested by burning a cup of petrol and you will see that the liquid petrol does not burn only the vapor on the surface burns.

[TjW]

Originally posted by oglommi
bogus all together. petrol does not burn at minus 300 degrees. All material has a point where it burns by self ignition and another temprature were it burn by being self ignition. Petrol does not burn below -60 degrees centigrade. Diesel selfignite at about 200 degrees centigrade wich is done by compressing the diesel in diesel engines.

This is because that liquid does not burn only gas do. At minus 60 degrees petrol stop evaporating and it does not burn. This can easily be tested by burning a cup of petrol and you will see that the liquid petrol does not burn only the vapor on the surface burns.

I think you've misunderstood the claim. He's not claiming to run the engine at -300 C.
What he's claiming is that by cold-soaking the engine parts at liquid nitrogen temperatures, and then bringing them back to room temperature, and running the engine in the normal way, he gets some amazing increase in efficiency.

The cryrogenic tempering seems to be widely acknowledged as having a strengthening and toughening effect on steel, so it's possible that wear could be reduced a bit.

It's unlikely that it would double the efficiency of the engine, though, because power consumed by the engine wearing is not a large percentage of the power produced.

[MoonDragn]

Originally posted by TjW
I think you've misunderstood the claim. He's not claiming to run the engine at -300 C.
What he's claiming is that by cold-soaking the engine parts at liquid nitrogen temperatures, and then bringing them back to room temperature, and running the engine in the normal way, he gets some amazing increase in efficiency.

The cryrogenic tempering seems to be widely acknowledged as having a strengthening and toughening effect on steel, so it's possible that wear could be reduced a bit.

It's unlikely that it would double the efficiency of the engine, though, because power consumed by the engine wearing is not a large percentage of the power produced.

Exactly! Most of the inefficiency of a combusion engine is due to friction and heat. Making the parts more durable still would not reduce friction. There would be a increase in efficiency if the parts were tooled to fit each other perfectly. Most manufactured parts have a tolerance and sometimes they don't fit perfectly causing extra wear etc.