Chi to be finally shown to exist

[thaiboxerken]

I convinced some bleever to actually write the JREF and take the challenge.

My prediction is that this person will fail to define what "chi" is or try to define chi as "breathing" or something to that effect.


Hello,

My name is Nathan ***** and I am a practitioner of Wing Chun Kung Fu from the Duncan Leung/Brian Edwards lineage. I am currently embroiled in a debate with some fellow martial artists about the realities of what the Chinese refer to as Qi or Chi. We are trying to establish whether or not "Chi" actually exists.

Your $1 million challenge states that it is for any paranormal, ocult, or supernatural occurences. Chi is none of these although some might argue it is psudoscientific. There has been much research by Western Scientists and the Chinese Government over the years regarding this subject. There seem to be as many studies lending credibility to Chi as there are studies trying to discredit Chi. What we would like is a test that would be scientific and completely unbiased in order to settle this once and for all. I would like to know before I apply for the preliminary tests whether or not proving the existence of Qi will qualify for your challenge or if it has already been sufficiently proven by science. The following website: http://www.chicenter.com/qigongScience.htm has some information on Qigong. Does Chi Exist?

Thank you for your time,
-Nathan ***** (name protected)

YES!!! If you can prove that "CHI" exists, absolutely, that would qualify for the JREF Challenge, and we would LOVE to see such a test take place.
The problem is that what YOU believe would prove it, may not truly prove anything. Most such claims are made by persons who require little if any real evidence.
But you say you want a scientific test, which suggests that you may the exception to this trend amongst Chi practitioners and "believers" in general.
I suggest that you read the Challenge rules, fill out a Challenge application, and send it here, to my attention, at your earliest convenience. Just follow the rules, and I'll email you shortly after receiving your application.

KRAMER, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.
Email: kramer@randi.org
JREF Website: www.randi.org


Kramer, if this guy wins, do I get affiliate proceeds for forwarding him to the JREF?

[Brown]

CHI exists.

It's a big city right next to LAKE MICH. in ILL.

[Brown]

Okay, enough with the wisecracks. I agree, that the definition is going to be the sticking point. Moreover, the question of existence is not something that is determined by vote.

[Lane]

Did you guys read the website he linked? It gives us our definition for him to use. And I quote, with emphasis added:


Since the last decade or so, some prominent scientists, such as David Bohm and Niels Bohr, have come to see a relationship between their work and the ideas behind some Eastern philosophy.They believe that the paradoxes, odds, and probabilities, and complementary nature of the reality, the dynamic cosmic dance of the energy and matter, role of consciousness, big bang, dynamic structure of chaos, different dimension, in-separability or undividable wholeness etc., have all been in the writings of Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Qigong for thousands of years. They point out that the Quantum Mechanics is merely a re-discovery of the ages old Eastern Wisdom. The theory created by ancient sages and teachers is based on their experiences of qigong practice. It has endured the test of time and is making a tremendous resurgence as a new science at the threshold of the new century. This theory continues to develop and become profoundly understood as qigong practice progresses to deeper levels in the process of becoming more prevalent in our everyday lives.

The Integral Theory of Oneness is not only the theoretical foundation of the school of qigong, it is also the essence of Chinese culture. It also provides a foundation for a quantum model for the holistic mind-body connection. Dr. Deepak Chopra, an inspiring pioneer in the field of mind-body medicine, has suggested that the human body is controlled by a network of intelligence grounded in quantum reality. This intelligence lies deep enough to change the basic patterns that design our physiology. His concept of the quantum mechanical human body ethos the model widely accepted in the Qigong field: the intelligence that creates and maintains the connection between the mind and body, between thought and physical manifestation is the unified field of consciousness and vital force, called chi. Chi, the mediator between mind and body, is nothing but a quantum phenomena. In other words, Primal Chi is the unifying field of matter, energy and consciousness.


There we go. Chi is a unifying field of force that combines matter, energy, and a third substance called consciousness, all of which HAVE to be quantifiable and measurable in order to be scientific. Prima facie, he fails, beause consciousness is not measurable, and hence any field which can unify with matter/energy is unquantifiable as well. Chi is also (paradoxically) described as the unified field of consciousness and "vital force." Sounds like old-fashioned vitalism to me, which is soundly refuted as non-scientific. Also, it calls chi a "quantum phenomena," which must mean that there are very small, probably massless particles called "chi-ons" which represent and carry this energy around, yet remain undetectable by modern science and serve no place in particle theory models.

Thus, a priori, we can establish his awful failure at a demonstration of chi without the need to recourse to experimentation. Any effect he could produce as an empirical effect of "chi" is complete BS because there is good reason to believe such a force is logically impossible.

[Atlas]

Well, he doesn't have to demonstrate real chi at all, does he?

If he demonstrates a so-called chi ability he wins even if it was all accomplished with psychokinesis.

In martial arts chi can save someone from an attack by deflecting someone's ability to strike.

Maybe he could do a demonstration by knocking out an angry hamster without touching it. It would only be considered cruel if he could do it.

Or put some bars between him and an angry dog. The bars would protect him but if he could knock the dog down that would prove paranormality, wouldn't it?

[alfaniner]

Originally posted by Atlas
...
Or put some bars between him and an angry dog. The bars would protect him but if he could knock the dog down that would prove paranormality, wouldn't it?

But the dog would have to be really angry. Otherwise it won't work.

[Mojo]

I like the wording Nathan uses: There seem to be as many studies lending credibility to Chi as there are studies trying to discredit Chi. Although he also says "We are trying to establish whether or not "Chi" actually exists," it's implicit here that he thinks there have been studies successfully lending credibility to the idea. The second category of studies, on the other hand, merely try to discredit it.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

from the website in question

Since the last decade or so, some prominent scientists, such as David Bohm and Niels Bohr, have come to see a relationship between their work and the ideas behind some Eastern philosophy.


Do they mean Niels Bohr from Copenhagen who died in 1962?

If so I guess "Chi" allows you to talk to the dead!

LLH

[Spindrift]

I love the "lends credibility" phrase.

In other words, the study did nothing to prove the "woo de jour".

Simply having a "scientific" study that doesn't discredit the topic gives them something to point to and say "See we have studies!"

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

I presume he's going to demonstrate Chi in action, rather than whip something quantifiable up in the lab or pull it out from under a microscope. By that I mean he's probably going to try and make people wobble at a distance or make them uncomfortable with long, hard stares.

I too have spent several years learning Kung Fu and other martial arts systems, and my experience of Chi is that it makes my mouth drop and causes me to stop going to Tai Chi classes. When the instructor begins to talk to beginners and elderly housewifes like he has Jedi abilities I gape and then run away, perhaps a demonstrable Chi power right there!

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Kenny 10 Bellys
I too have spent several years learning Kung Fu and other martial arts systems, and my experience of Chi is that it makes my mouth drop and causes me to stop going to Tai Chi classes. When the instructor begins to talk to beginners and elderly housewifes like he has Jedi abilities I gape and then run away, perhaps a demonstrable Chi power right there!

:clap:

I practice and teach Tai Chi (and Bagua, and Hsing-i), and I couldn't agree more. Most Tai Chi being taught today is nothing more than new age woo woo.

[eri]

I had to quit Tai Chi for the same reason - but I kept giggling when they started talking like that, and I think I was distracting the class.

Lord beat me to it - Bohr's been dead for a while. Maybe they meant that they have seen their work 'validated' in the Eastern Philosophy - figuratively speaking? In which case, they may have well claimed other scientists as well, since they didn't mean that the scientists supported the claims. But it was a rather misleading way of putting it. I guess that's the point.

More to THE point, I can't think of a protocal that would allow them to demonstrate 'chi' effectively, besides the stuff Yellow Bamboo already tried.

[gnome]

What's interesting is that I hear all kinds of spectacular claims about Chi that would make great demonstrations, but when demonstrated, it's always something subtle.

[jmercer]

The ones I love are those that say "I can do this", and then when they fail, say "Your chi isn't advanced enough to sense what's happening." :D

[Metullus]

Originally posted by jmercer
*snip*
"Your chi isn't advanced enough to sense what's happening." :D
That, I regret to say, is the story of my life...

[Atlas]

I'd be impressd by a martial artist using chi to break only the third brick in a stack of five. I'm pretty sure Quai Chang Cain could do it. He could also levitate but only during meditation.

I kinda miss that tv show.

[SpencerFW]

Oh yeah, I can fa-jing chi out my perineal (http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/Perineum.htm) chakra! Proof? I'll light it...

[Flange Desire]

What's happening with the challenge Nathan?
I don't see much followup lately.

As you suggested I went to the chi website and read all the gumph, all the usual claims, and all the usual woo talk.
It cerainly did not explain what chi was, in any understandable english terms.
So whats new?

Of course the big problem for Nathan is how to define the test.
The website implies (and says using many various woo words) that chi is some sort of 'energy' that has some sort of 'effect'.

OK, so design a simple test that measures that 'energy', and that clearly shows that that 'energy' is not from some other known source.

oh, did i hear you say that you cannot measure chi like that?

OK, so design a simple test that measures the 'effect' of the chi,
and clearly shows that the 'effect' is not from some other known source. (btw, as we all know this is exactly the same as the previous test, but just uses some different words).

oh, did i hear you say that you cannot measure chi like that?

OK, so rather than me try to help you design a test, why don't you cogitate about the supposed chi 'enegy' and its 'effect'; and then identify to yourself how you might measure that; and then design a simple test to measure it. And then collect the million dollars.

oh, did i hear you say that you cannot measure chi like that?

So what you are probably saying is that you cannot measure it.
And to paraphrase the famous words of someone whos name I cannot remember just now "If you cannot measure it then it does not exist".

Now, what else is new in the land of chi?

[MoonDragn]

Btw, alot of the mumbo-jumbo in Tai-chi do have some basis in physical effects. The slow movements is to help develop muscle memory. The position of the hands fingers etc in the forms helps reduce injury during the sessions.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by MoonDragn
Btw, alot of the mumbo-jumbo in Tai-chi do have some basis in physical effects. The slow movements is to help develop muscle memory. The position of the hands fingers etc in the forms helps reduce injury during the sessions. So it's using actual physical effects rather than "Chi?"

[MoonDragn]

Originally posted by Mojo
So it's using actual physical effects rather than "Chi?"

I'm not a master of Tai-chi, but having taken classes in it, its probably more physical effects than some unknown quantity of Chi. Chi or Ki is taught in every martial arts as something related to improving your breathing technique while executing moves. Chi itself means Air. So It could be nothing more than breath control.

I don't know who first atributed mystical powers to Chi but Im sure when it first started in martial arts it was intended as a way to teach students how to control their breathing.

If someone asked me to show them Chi exists, I would just laugh and breath out.

[jmercer]

Actually, it's more than muscle memory, but I'm not going to get into a detailed discussion of it here. Suffice to say it's purely physical, pretty sophisticated, hard to learn to do and you can do some pretty surprising things with it. :)

Breathing is a part of it, but again, there's a valid physical reason behind it.

[pjh]

To all UKers here who get BBC3 - Chi was demontsrated for half an hour on Mind, Body and Kick Ass Moves (http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/tv/mind_body/episode_guide.shtml) all the usual stuff - hard chi put into hands to crack blocks etc etc.

However one Chi master demonstrated 'Light Chi' (Normally used to allow him jump higher), but he demonstrated it by standing on a couple of dozen eggs (which amazingly did not break)

So 'Light Chi' is very testable with a resonably accurate set of bathroom scales!

I must say this program was awful, it included a japanese 'shouter' who could disable swordsmen by shouting (and ring bells), a mixture of bad kung-fu, bad parlour magic tricks and some bizare penis weight lifting (Dick-Chi?)

[Mojo]

Originally posted by pjh
However one Chi master demonstrated 'Light Chi' (Normally used to allow him jump higher), but he demonstrated it by standing on a couple of dozen eggs (which amazingly did not break) Demonstrating only the fact that eggshells are stronger than most people realise...

I imagine he stood on them all at the same time?

[Ashles]

Originally posted by pjh
However one Chi master demonstrated 'Light Chi' (Normally used to allow him jump higher), but he demonstrated it by standing on a couple of dozen eggs (which amazingly did not break)

So 'Light Chi' is very testable with a resonably accurate set of bathroom scales!
Exactly what I was thinking when you described the egg standing.

"So, you can make yourself actually lighter can you? That should be easy to demonstrate in a slightly more scientific and accurate way than standing on eggs. Wait come back..."

[jmercer]

Obviously the Flying Spaghetti Monster lifted him up with His invisible noodly appendages... a miracle! See! the FSM exists! :D

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by MoonDragn
Chi or Ki is taught in every martial arts as something related to improving your breathing technique while executing moves.

Not true at all.

[Lane]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Not true at all.

Seconded. Chi/qi/ki (the spelling depends on the nationality) is always taught as a vitalistic "life energy" that subsumes all things, and that proper health, strength and flexibility is a direct function of balance and alignment of this energy.

And not all martial arts talk about this. By definition, these are Sino-Japanese terms and so therefore their use is limited mostly to Sino-Japanese forms, at least in traditional arts. New Age MA nuts who develop their own "über-deadly" system often incorporate the mystical powers of chi into their system to give it that "Far East" mystique.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by pjh
...and some bizare penis weight lifting (Dick-Chi?)
No, a real cock-up. :D

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Lane
Chi/qi/ki (the spelling depends on the nationality) is always taught as a vitalistic "life energy" that subsumes all things, and that proper health, strength and flexibility is a direct function of balance and alignment of this energy.


Sorry. Not true. Some use the qi paradigm to describe fundamental physical aspects of their art; no mystical stuff involved.

Qi is a complex topic in a sense because there are so many different contextual uses for it. In terms of MA, some use it as life energy, some use it as breath control, and some use it as a paradigm for specific physical techniques. The last one is the one I've been lucky enough to gain understanding of, and - to be fair - it's the minority of people who present it this way.

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

Chi, in the most universally known sense of the word, it is The Force(tm). It is the all encompassing mystical energy "which surrounds us, binds us, flows through us". It is meant to be the energy created by life, the energy that flows through all life and all objects around us. People with enough training, Jedis and Tai Chi masters for example, can learn to channel and focus this energy to perform feats impossible to normal humans. Or not.

Chi, in all the martial arts I've encountered it in at least, is a kind of placebo that gets the practitioner in the correct state of mind to do slightly dumb things like punch hard materials or attempt painful manouevers. It is psychology in action, not physics. The fact that it has never been measured, never been detected, never been seen to cause any real physical effect should be enough to stop people from convincing themselves they have superhuman powers.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by jmercer
Sorry. Not true. Some use the qi paradigm to describe fundamental physical aspects of their art; no mystical stuff involved.

Qi is a complex topic in a sense because there are so many different contextual uses for it. In terms of MA, some use it as life energy, some use it as breath control, and some use it as a paradigm for specific physical techniques. The last one is the one I've been lucky enough to gain understanding of, and - to be fair - it's the minority of people who present it this way.
Using the word "ki" to mean "breath control" is definitely wrong; breath control is "chosoku".

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Kenny 10 Bellys
Chi, in the most universally known sense of the word, it is The Force(tm). It is the all encompassing mystical energy "which surrounds us, binds us, flows through us". It is meant to be the energy created by life, the energy that flows through all life and all objects around us. People with enough training, Jedis and Tai Chi masters for example, can learn to channel and focus this energy to perform feats impossible to normal humans. Or not.

Chi, in all the martial arts I've encountered it in at least, is a kind of placebo that gets the practitioner in the correct state of mind to do slightly dumb things like punch hard materials or attempt painful manouevers. It is psychology in action, not physics. The fact that it has never been measured, never been detected, never been seen to cause any real physical effect should be enough to stop people from convincing themselves they have superhuman powers.

I agree that's true in most cases, and "the force" concept is utterly bogus... it's not real, and it drives me nuts that people teach that crap. That's not what I'm talking about, though. I'm sorry; I don't mean to be mysterious, I just don't want to get into a long, difficult discussion of something very hard to explain in words.

Qi - as I mean it - isn't all that exotic, although you can do some pretty surprising things with it and learning how to use your body to "manifest" it takes a lot of hard work. (It's pretty counter-intuitive.) And I'm no master or anything; I can demonstrate some very basic skills with this stuff, but I've met and worked out with people who are are a lot more skilled than I'll ever be.

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Usign the word "ki" to mean "breath control" is definitely wrong; breath control is "chosoku".

No argument. I'm not saying I agree with how some people use it; just that they use it that way.

[10001]

i would assume that most chi, ki, gi practitioners to be able to have control of this energy? and i think they also could focus? it in away so the temperature of cirtain parts or all, of the body can be fluctuated at will. if this is possible. would this count as somehing extraordinary? viable enough ability to pass as an ability worthy of JREF challange?

if so, to what degree does the temperature has to fluctuate?


practicing chi, ki, gi is very very good for anyone's body and mind, if done right. and because the body and mind goes through some changes during the practice, many people do experience strange and mystical often seemingly supernatural happenings. are these factual, who is to say... as we all know, even the so called masters arent? able to prove it. or are they just not interested in proving it. anyway...

i would appreciate the forum member's help in determaining a test protocal.

thanks

[thaiboxerken]

10001, it's not up to us. Heck, we still don't know what Nathan's definition of Qi is, or if Nathan has submitted an application. At any rate, Kramer, Randi and Nathan can come up with a protocol, if Nathan is serious about this challenge.

[Lane]

Originally posted by 10001
are these factual, who is to say... as we all know, even the so called masters arent? able to prove it.

I'll say it -- they're not factual. They can't be. Positing the existence of chi is a metaphysical proposition, and therefore not decidable by rational science. Insofar was we are able to naturalistically explain ALL of the phenomena that chi is reported to explain, recourse to any explanation involving chi is unparsimonious. If the proposition of chi's existence is unable to be falsified (that is, can you think of a single case which would cause a "chi master" to abandon his belief in chi's existence?), then chi is unscientific and any scientific test to determine its validity will necessarily fail.

[thaiboxerken]

When asking what the status of the challenge is, here is the email reply i recieved.

Working on it. First I need someone who has done extensive internal training. My Kung Fu sifu from NC or another sifu with good credentials. I would like this to be scientific. That's the only way we are going to convince you "caring skeptics." I know I have been hit with a Chi amplified punch enough times to believe in it.

-Nathan Grant
Gentleman at Arms

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

Originally posted by 10001
i would assume that most chi, ki, gi practitioners to be able to have control of this energy? and i think they also could focus? it in away so the temperature of cirtain parts or all, of the body can be fluctuated at will. if this is possible. would this count as somehing extraordinary? viable enough ability to pass as an ability worthy of JREF challange?

if so, to what degree does the temperature has to fluctuate?

No good. Plenty of people are able to exert some control over their body temperature using a sort of bio-feedback technique. There are little Tibetan monks who spend their days sitting their in the cold doing nothing but raising their body temperatures. Now if it was a case of "flame on!" I'd be impressed.

As for 'Chi amplified punches' I would again be very skeptical that this would make a decent test of Chi and not simply good technique and training. If there are people claiming to be able to make themselves lighter, to affect people at a distance, to leap tall buildings in a single bound, etc then they qould certainly be classified as paranormal effects of Chi and be worth testing. "He hit me very hard" is not a scientific test of The Force(tm).

[Lane]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
When asking what the status of the challenge is, here is the email reply i recieved.

Working on it. First I need someone who has done extensive internal training. My Kung Fu sifu from NC or another sifu with good credentials. I would like this to be scientific. That's the only way we are going to convince you "caring skeptics." I know I have been hit with a Chi amplified punch enough times to believe in it.

-Nathan Grant
Gentleman at Arms

Aha, a control experiment begins to take shape. Thaiboxerken, you must use your Thai curry amplified punches and kicks as a control. Plus, you get to hit this guy as hard as you can.

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Lane
Plus, you get to hit this guy as hard as you can.

He'd better get an iron-clad legal instrument absolving him of all blame, then. I've been hit by Muy Thai guys in sparring, and they were pulling their punches and kicks... I have some pretty good defensive techniques designed to dissipate impacts, but lemme tell ya, it was like being kicked by a horse when they got through them. :D

if TBK is half as capable as I think he is, this guy could be pretty badly hurt by a full strike - even if he were in a redman suit. :)

[MoonDragn]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Using the word "ki" to mean "breath control" is definitely wrong; breath control is "chosoku".


In every language there are many different ways to say something. I was talking about the literal translation. Being chinese and having mandarin as my first native language. I can tell you that the word for breath control is chi-gung. Even the japanese word chosoku itself has many different meanings.

Japanese and Chinese diverged somewhere around the 10th or 11th century.

As for my reference to chi in martial arts, I did not make myself clear, I was refering to the reference of chi when taught in a martial arts class that were referenced that way. I was not talking about martial arts that did not include references to Chi.

I myself have taken tae-kwon do (korean), Tai-chi and tai-chi sword(southeast asian), Karate(japanese), Shao-lin kungfu (chinese) and American black cat Kenpo(mixture of tae-kwon do, japanese kenpo and aikido).

[Lane]

Originally posted by jmercer
He'd better get an iron-clad legal instrument absolving him of all blame, then. I've been hit by Muy Thai guys in sparring, and they were pulling their punches and kicks... I have some pretty good defensive techniques designed to dissipate impacts, but lemme tell ya, it was like being kicked by a horse when they got through them. :D

if TBK is half as capable as I think he is, this guy could be pretty badly hurt by a full strike - even if he were in a redman suit. :)


Nah. :D I let Thai boxers kick my ass every Monday and Wednesday. I survive. So far. (I do muay thai as well).

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by MoonDragn
In every language there are many different ways to say something. I was talking about the literal translation. Being chinese and having mandarin as my first native language. I can tell you that the word for breath control is chi-gung. Even the japanese word chosoku itself has many different meanings.

Japanese and Chinese diverged somewhere around the 10th or 11th century.

As for my reference to chi in martial arts, I did not make myself clear, I was refering to the reference of chi when taught in a martial arts class that were referenced that way. I was not talking about martial arts that did not include references to Chi.

I myself have taken tae-kwon do (korean), Tai-chi and tai-chi sword(southeast asian), Karate(japanese), Shao-lin kungfu (chinese) and American black cat Kenpo(mixture of tae-kwon do, japanese kenpo and aikido).
Butterflying around all those arts; are you any good at any of them?
FYI, "chosoku" does NOT have many different meanings. It means breath control, and nothing else. Chigong is closer to the Japanese word "kisei" (there's that ki again), which means "(latent) power of ki".
Japanese and Chinese never diverged, as they were never the same. Chinese is an Indo-European language, whereas Japanese is an Altaic language. Its closest relative is Polynesian.
You may be Chinese, but I'm a Japanese translator. (Oh, and a Shorinji Kenshi for 21 years now.)

[MoonDragn]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Butterflying around all those arts; are you any good at any of them?
FYI, "chosoku" does NOT have many different meanings. It means breath control, and nothing else. Chigong is closer to the Japanese word "kisei" (there's that ki again), which means "(latent) power of ki".
Japanese and Chinese never diverged, as they were never the same. Chinese is an Indo-European language, whereas Japanese is an Altaic language. Its closest relative is Polynesian.
You may be Chinese, but I'm a Japanese translator. (Oh, and a Shorinji Kenshi for 21 years now.)

Nope not really any good at any of em LOL. I get bored easily. I also studied heavy sword, fencing and sticks. So between all of it, I've developed my own style that is sufficient to defend myself at least.

Gong or gung means work in Chinese. Chi-gung means literally breath work.
Martial arts texts talk about chi and zun-chi or real chi. Real chi is physical while the other has taken on an almost mystical context.

Doesn't Chosoku also mean really fast?

I can't presume to know about Japanese, however Japanese was influenced by Chinese settlers back around the 710-795 AD in the Tang dynasty. There are a still a vast number of Chinese words or Han-words used in Japanese. These are what I was refering to. Their meanings remain basically the same except the context that are used in sentence structures have changed. I studied Japanese briefly but I am still on a elementary level with it.

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Lane
Nah. :D I let Thai boxers kick my ass every Monday and Wednesday. I survive. So far. (I do muay thai as well).

Well, yeah. :)

But you and I have skills, and we're not relying on mystical chi to protect us... we're relying on our training, conditioning, techniques and reflexes. Granted, I'm reading a lot into the OP's description of the "target", but even if I'm wrong... consider what would happen if you put everything you had into a MT technique and hit a target only using "chi" to protect himself.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by MoonDragn
Nope not really any good at any of em LOL. I get bored easily. I also studied heavy sword, fencing and sticks. So between all of it, I've developed my own style that is sufficient to defend myself at least.
And exactly how many years have you been training? Oh, and BTW, how old are you?
Originally posted by MoonDragn
Gong or gung means work in Chinese. Chi-gung means literally breath work.
Martial arts texts talk about chi and zun-chi or real chi. Real chi is physical while the other has taken on an almost mystical context.
If real chi is physical, let's see your evidence. You can win $1 million.
Originally posted by MoonDragn
Doesn't Chosoku also mean really fast?
Different characters, and utterly irrelevant. That's a homonym.
What does "light" mean?
Originally posted by MoonDragn
I can't presume to know about Japanese, however Japanese was influenced by Chinese settlers back around the 710-795 AD in the Tang dynasty. There are a still a vast number of Chinese words or Han-words used in Japanese. These are what I was refering to. Their meanings remain basically the same except the context that are used in sentence structures have changed. I studied Japanese briefly but I am still on a elementary level with it.
So now you're changing your story; earlier you claimed that Japanese cam from Chinese, and then diverged around the 10th or 11th century. That Japanese was influenced by Chinese is both well-known and not in the least controversial. By claiming divergence, however, you were trying to put Japanese in the same language family as Chinese, which is daft.

[drkitten]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Japanese and Chinese never diverged, as they were never the same. Chinese is an Indo-European language, whereas Japanese is an Altaic language. Its closest relative is Polynesian.


Right, wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Check the Ethnologue, a professional catalogue of the world's languages (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90150) as compiled by professional linguists (and a truly mammoth piece of work it is, too.)

"Chinese" is actually about a half-dozen languages -- the best-known are Mandarin and Cantonese., althoug they have more formal names-- in the Sino-Tibetian
family.

"Japanese" is an isolated family, basically including Japanese itself and Okinawan (Ryukyuan).

Indo-European is, well, Indo-European, and doesn't extend much east of Bangladesh.

Altaic is mostly Chinese and Russian, with a few other groups.

And "Polynesian" is a group of about 40 different languages spoken on various islands, not including Japan, and most closely related to about 1200 other Malayo-Polynesian languages that arent Japanese (and aren't Chinese, either).

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by new drkitten
Right, wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Check the Ethnologue, a professional catalogue of the world's languages (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90150) as compiled by professional linguists (and a truly mammoth piece of work it is, too.)

"Chinese" is actually about a half-dozen languages -- the best-known are Mandarin and Cantonese., althoug they have more formal names-- in the Sino-Tibetian
family.

"Japanese" is an isolated family, basically including Japanese itself and Okinawan (Ryukyuan).

Indo-European is, well, Indo-European, and doesn't extend much east of Bangladesh.

Altaic is mostly Chinese and Russian, with a few other groups.

And "Polynesian" is a group of about 40 different languages spoken on various islands, not including Japan, and most closely related to about 1200 other Malayo-Polynesian languages that arent Japanese (and aren't Chinese, either).
Having studied linguistics, I know what I'm talkign about.
1. If Chinese is many differnet languages, how come its written system is mututally intelligible to all of them? Answer: CHiense is not many languages, but many dialects. (The problem lies in what constitutes a dialect, and what a language. The definition is rather flexible.)
If Japanese is an isolated family, how come Polynesian (Hawaiian) shares so much conceptualization in common?
If Indo-European doesn't extend east of Bangladesh, how come Chinese is SVO word order?
If Japanese is not an altaic language, how come its grammar is virtually identical to that of Korean?
Answers on a postcard, please... ;) :p

[drkitten]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Having studied linguistics, I know what I'm talkign about.

With respect....

The Ethnologue (and its publisher, the SIL) are well-respected, professional, highly regarded, and extremely well-supported. It's even the primary source for the relevant Wikipedia article (check out "Language families and languages"). But of course, I can also cite the published works of other professional linguists.


1. If Chinese is many differnet languages, how come its written system is mututally intelligible to all of them? Answer: CHiense is not many languages, but many dialects. (The problem lies in what constitutes a dialect, and what a language. The definition is rather flexible.)

Because they're closely related languages, and because written Chinese is so stereotyped and so different from most of the spoken versions.

But if you don't take my word for it, here's another source (http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_sinotibe.html):


The Sino-Tibetan Family is an important Asian family of languages. It contains the world's most spoken language, Mandarin, the official language of China.

The languages in the Sinitic Branch are the various languages of China (Mandarin, Cantonese, Wu, Amoy, Gan, Min, Hakka, Xiang, Yue). They are all written in Chinese characters. Each syllable has a different character so that the writing is not alphabetic. There are over 50,000 characters, 6000 of which are needed to read a newspaper. Even though the different languages have different pronunciations, the meanings of characters are the same.




If Japanese is an isolated family, how come Polynesian (Hawaiian) shares so much conceptualization in common?


Because there are only so many conceptualizations, and it's got to be closest to something. Re-read Don Ringe (Ringe, Donald A., Jr. 1992. On Calculating the Factor of Chance in Language Comparison. American Philosophical Society, Philadelphia.)


If Indo-European doesn't extend east of Bangladesh, how come Chinese is SVO word order?


Because there are 4,000 languages and only 6 basic word orders -- and SVO is a particularly common one at that. See the Ringe citation above.


If Japanese is not an altaic language, how come its grammar is virtually identical to that of Korean?

Who said Korean is an Altaic language?

According to
Ethnologue (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=kor), Korean is also a language isolate -- but I admit the relationship between Korean and Japanese is disputed, and a few scholars believe that Korean and Japanese are, indeed, Altaic -- but entirely unrelated to Polynesian. See, for example, this source (http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/languagefamilies.html):


There are about 60 langauges in the Altaic family, with about 250 million speakers. Included are Turkish and Mongolian.

There is considerable controversy about this family. First, it is often classified with the Uralic languages (see above), which have a similar grammatic structures.

Second, many linguists doubt that Korean, Japanese (125 million speakers), or Ainu should be included, or that these last three are even related to each other!


On a postcard? If you "know what you're talking about," why are the masses of professional linguistic taxonomists and typologists assembled against you?

[jmercer]

Not to throw a monkey-wrench into the discussion, but I feel compelled to point out that common usage of words changes over years, and context can vary dramatically. Consider the word "gay" as it's used today, compared to how it would have been used in the early 1900's. So, when speaking of qi (chi), one must be very careful to not assume that the contemporary usages are identical to historical ones.

Qi is a fundamental and suprisingly profound philosophical construct - conversations about it are made even more difficult due to the meaning of qi being strongly topical, depending on who is using it. In example, you wouldn't have the same discussion about qi with a dedicated Taoist that you would with an acupuncturist. Nor would a practitioner of Traditional Chinese Medicine necessarily reference qi in the same way that a martial arts master would... or how the Dalai Lama would. Granted - there would be overlaps in some areas. But each of these groups have highly specific ideas about what qi is, how it can be used, and how it can be replenished.

Pre-birth, post-birth qi; blood qi, breath qi, heavenly qi and many more are referenced in a variety of historical Chinese texts. It seems there are as many possible variants of qi as there are potential sources.

So, I suggest we all be careful in attempting to assign narrow definitions to qi; even within specific catagories, there are often disputes about it's meaning. :)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by new drkitten
With respect....
Liar... ;)
Originally posted by new drkitten
The Ethnologue (and its publisher, the SIL) are well-respected, professional, highly regarded, and extremely well-supported. It's even the primary source for the relevant Wikipedia article (check out "Language families and languages"). But of course, I can also cite the published works of other professional linguists.
Please do so. There is a strong canon of evidence to disprove the contributors, by professional linguits who refused o contribute because of the bias they perceived.
Originally posted by new drkitten
Because they're closely related languages, and because written Chinese is so stereotyped and so different from most of the spoken versions.
What do you mean by "sterotyped"? They are not languages, but dialects. Otherwise they wouldn't be mututally intelligble in written form.
Originally posted by new drkitten
But if you don't take my word for it, here's another source (http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_sinotibe.html):
Check out this instead. (http://ethnomed.org/ethnomed/cultures/chinese/chin_lang.html) See, there are counter academic opnions.
Originally posted by new drkitten
Because there are only so many conceptualizations, and it's got to be closest to something. Re-read Don Ringe (Ringe, Donald A., Jr. 1992. On Calculating the Factor of Chance in Language Comparison. American Philosophical Society, Philadelphia.)
Because there are 4,000 languages and only 6 basic word orders -- and SVO is a particularly common one at that. See the Ringe citation above.
Actually, no. The most common word order in the world (40% of all the world's languages) is SOV, and Chinese is AFAIK the only East Asian language in that group. That it holds true for all dialects proves that they are exactly that: dialects, not languages.
As to conceptualizations, that proves we are all human, but not all our modes of expression are identical. And yet...
Originally posted by new drkitten
Who said Korean is an Altaic language?
The world congress on ethic derivatives.
Originally posted by new drkitten
According to
Ethnologue (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=kor), Korean is also a language isolate -- but I admit the relationship between Korean and Japanese is disputed, and a few scholars believe that Korean and Japanese are, indeed, Altaic -- but entirely unrelated to Polynesian. See, for example, this source (http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/languagefamilies.html):
So now you accept that Japanese and Korean are both Altaic?
As to Polynesian, there are so many similarities, that they are unrealted languages beggars belief.
Originally posted by new drkitten
On a postcard? If you "know what you're talking about," why are the masses of professional linguistic taxonomists and typologists assembled against you?
But they're NOT! You're reading one book, and ignoring the political fact that many academics refused to contribute to what they saw as a foregone conclusion to please the masters, rather than a genuine presenting of evidence. Those people (many of them at SOAS) thereby recused themselves from contributing, so of course you have a slanted version.
On a postcard: Where did you learn your Asian languages?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by jmercer
Not to throw a monkey-wrench into the discussion, but I feel compelled to point out that common usage of words changes over years, and context can vary dramatically. Consider the word "gay" as it's used today, compared to how it would have been used in the early 1900's. So, when speaking of qi (chi), one must be very careful to not assume that the contemporary usages are identical to historical ones.

Qi is a fundamental and suprisingly profound philosophical construct - conversations about it are made even more difficult due to the meaning of qi being strongly topical, depending on who is using it. In example, you wouldn't have the same discussion about qi with a dedicated Taoist that you would with an acupuncturist. Nor would a practitioner of Traditional Chinese Medicine necessarily reference qi in the same way that a martial arts master would... or how the Dalai Lama would. Granted - there would be overlaps in some areas. But each of these groups have highly specific ideas about what qi is, how it can be used, and how it can be replenished.

Pre-birth, post-birth qi; blood qi, breath qi, heavenly qi and many more are referenced in a variety of historical Chinese texts. It seems there are as many possible variants of qi as there are potential sources.

So, I suggest we all be careful in attempting to assign narrow definitions to qi; even within specific catagories, there are often disputes about it's meaning. :)
In other words, the concept is so daft, you can use it to mean whatever you want it to mean, like Humpty Dumpty.
Oh, and WTF does "...there are often disputes about it is meaning" mean, anyway...? :p

[drkitten]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Please do so. There is a strong canon of evidence to disprove the contributors, by professional linguits who refused o contribute because of the bias they perceived.


Then you should be able to cite it.

So far, I've cited three scholarly linguistics web sites, and you've given me smoke, mirrors, a medical journal, and your unsupported opinion. (Ethnomed.com? You're looking to doctors to define your linguistic information? Who do you go for when you get appendicitis, the local Indo-Europeanist?)



On a postcard: Where did you learn your Asian languages?

National Science Foundation, not that it matters. What matters is that I've cited evidence, and you haven't.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by new drkitten
Then you should be able to cite it.

So far, I've cited three scholarly linguistics web sites, and you've given me smoke, mirrors, a medical journal, and your unsupported opinion. (Ethnomed.com? You're looking to doctors to define your linguistic information? Who do you go for when you get appendicitis, the local Indo-Europeanist?)
I was writing rapidly because this forum is scheduled to go down any moment now.
Anyway, try the Journal of Jpaanese Studies and the Journal of Ethnolingusitics.
Originally posted by new drkitten
National Science Foundation, not that it matters. What matters is that I've cited evidence, and you haven't.
It certainly matters if you don't speak the languages; you have no feel for them.

�れ�ら日本語��願����。

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
In other words, the concept is so daft, you can use it to mean whatever you want it to mean, like Humpty Dumpty.
Oh, and WTF does "...there are often disputes about it is meaning" mean, anyway...? :p

No offense, but that's a dismissively simplistic misrepresentation. The idea of qi was not daft when created; when it was established, it was a deeply profound and sophisticated concept developed at a time when better information was unavailable. It would only be daft if the known facts at the time contradicted the concept - which they did not. The qi paradigm fit the then-observable phenomena perfectly because it was developed from said observable phenomena. The fact that it turned out to be untrue later on (except in highly specialized usages to describe specific physical techniques) is irrelevant to it's elegance and profundity.

The variants simply mean that as the concept was developed through the Chinese culture over centuries, different people built on it and theorized about it - as a result, there are many different versions, depending on who did the theorizing. Further, as the idea of qi spread into other nearby cultures each one added their own particular interpretation to the mix.

The disputes about it arise when variants are incompatible in specific ways; especially those variants developed by different cultures.

A similar example in the West would be democracy. There are many variants of democracy in existence today, as opposed to the concept as first implemented in Athens by Pericles... and while today's versions can ultimately trace their roots back to the Athens of old, I doubt Pericles would recognize today's governments as true democracy. (For that matter, I doubt the founding fathers of America would recognize today's government as following the basic beliefs they chose to implement.) If you tried to establish a base definition for democracy in today's world, you'd probably be able to succeed after a great deal of effort and negotiation - but if you tried to create a comprehensive one, you'd never get off the ground. :D

Is it really all that surprising to you to find that people disagree philosophically on things developed by various cultures over centuries? :)

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
I was writing rapidly because this forum is scheduled to go down any moment now.


That's tomorrow. :)

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

How do you say "semantic death-spiral" in Chinese, I can only count up to ten and know the words of a few Kung Fu techniques? ;)

So when do we get to see the Chi demonstration then?

[alfaniner]

Originally posted by jmercer
That's tomorrow. :)

Really??

Well... "Ladybrooke"!

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
In other words, the concept is so daft, you can use it to mean whatever you want it to mean, like Humpty Dumpty.


No, it's more like the chinese equivalent of "smurf".

[Paul2]

Originally posted by jmercer
No offense, but that's a dismissively simplistic misrepresentation. The idea of qi was not daft when created; when it was established, it was a deeply profound and sophisticated concept developed at a time when better information was unavailable. It would only be daft if the known facts at the time contradicted the concept - which they did not. The qi paradigm fit the then-observable phenomena perfectly because it was developed from said observable phenomena. The fact that it turned out to be untrue later on (except in highly specialized usages to describe specific physical techniques) is irrelevant to it's elegance and profundity.

What was the definition of qi when it was created?

What were the observable phenomena at that time?

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Paul2
What was the definition of qi when it was created?

What were the observable phenomena at that time? I believe the first definition was the sound a duck makes if you don't hear well. There was some confusion about whether that sound was caused by the duck's breathing but when it was shown that ducks control their qi (quack) they started pitting the ducks against each other in qi matches.

Later, midgets began to masquerade as ducks, or rather duck opponents, and clobber the real duck before they could qi (quack). Soon qi matches were all about midgets. They'd sock and clobber one another while qi'ing. Soon champion duck dressed qi midgets quacked only once - when they won their match.

Qi midgets were hurting themselves and not making much money until they unionized and went professional. The World Qi Federation was a total sham but the fighters made the equivalent of millions. Their acrobatics amazed the crowds and the midgets started talking up their qi power. Only the old timers quacked anymore. Only the oldest fans even remembered duck fighting anyway.

I wish I could provide a link but apparently this all happened before the internet. If anyone knows more true facts please add or correct me. I'm doing this all from memory.

Hope this helps.

[Paul2]

Originally posted by Atlas
I believe the first definition was the sound a duck makes if you don't hear well. There was some confusion about whether that sound was caused by the duck's breathing but when it was shown that ducks control their qi (quack) they started pitting the ducks against each other in qi matches.

Later, midgets began to masquerade as ducks, or rather duck opponents, and clobber the real duck before they could qi (quack). Soon qi matches were all about midgets. They'd sock and clobber one another while qi'ing. Soon champion duck dressed qi midgets quacked only once - when they won their match.

Qi midgets were hurting themselves and not making much money until they unionized and went professional. The World Qi Federation was a total sham but the fighters made the equivalent of millions. Their acrobatics amazed the crowds and the midgets started talking up their qi power. Only the old timers quacked anymore. Only the oldest fans even remembered duck fighting anyway.

I wish I could provide a link but apparently this all happened before the internet. If anyone knows more true facts please add or correct me. I'm doing this all from memory.

Hope this helps.

Immensely.:crazy:

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Paul2
What was the definition of qi when it was created?

What were the observable phenomena at that time?

The original definition of qi has to do with pre-birth and post-birth qi. Not that I'm lazy, but there's tons of information on those two concepts all over the place on the 'net - I'll leave it to you to Google 'em. Suffice to say that the Chinese believed that you were born with a quantity of pre-birth qi (determined by your parents and other factors), and when you used all of that up, you died.

The observable phenomena were exactly the same phenomena seen everywhere else in the world; in Europe, it let to theories of "vapors", "humors", etc. (along with other sundry nonsense). These beliefs led to techniques such as bleeding, leeching and other nutty "cures". Of course, Christianity had a major influence on the direction the theories followed in Europe.

In China, the observations led to different conclusions - the qi paradigm. (A much more logical viewpoint, albeit ust as incorrect as the European beliefs.)

The Chinese observed that if you deprive someone of food, water or air, they die. This led to the belief that people died because food, air and water were major sources of some other kind of qi - eventually called "post-birth qi". The thinking went that depriving them of those sources of post-birth qi forced their bodies to use pre-birth qi until it was gone... resulting in death.

The Chinese approach to longevity was to cultivate post-birth qi and conserve pre-birth qi via meditation, diet, herbs, acupuncture, sexual abstinence and so on. The primary goal was to conserve pre-birth qi by reducing it's usage through increased substitution of post-birth qi in situations where pre-birth qi would normally be used. The belief was that while some use of pre-birth qi was unavoidable, the quantity used could be reduced. Between this and the "initial" size of the store of pre-birth qi, the Chinese were able to explain varying life-spans.

No stranger to rationalization, people who didn't practice qi conservation but lived a long time were assumed to have had great stores of pre-birth qi.

FYI - the goal of many of the so-called Taoist Immortals was to discover a way to eliminate use of pre-birth qi entirely and to subsist on post-birth qi only - hence "immortality". :)

All sorts of meditations and visualizations were created to "enhance" the efficiency of qi use in the body; the Macrocosmic Orbit, the Microcosmic Orbit, and many forms of qi gongs were developed for that purpose. The qi paradigm was later extended (as I posted earlier) by many others to explain other phenomena. (A classic case of having a hammer, so every problem becomes a nail.)

Later on, of course, the qi paradigm was used to explain illnesses (qi blockages or imbalances opening the body to harm), and so forth. Early acupuncture and herbal treatments (Traditional Chinese Medicine) all center around the idea of removing those blockages and/or imbalances so the body can naturally prevent illness and heal itself.

I have a fair number of sources for this information, but not at work, and not on the web. If you're really that curious I'll dig them up and list them for you... but they're pretty easy to find, anyway. :)

It was either this, or ducks... :D

[MoonDragn]

I understand the confusion Kimpatsu, but know this, whatever you are refering to in Japanese, its not what I was referencing. So the whole point was irrelavant. I was talking about CHINESE definitions.

I don't care if you are a linquist whatever. Chinese Mandarin is my NATIVE language and I am quite fluent in it.

I have been practicing martial arts since I was 20 years old. I am now 38. I came to the United States when I was 10 years old.

Incidentally Qi is Cantonese for Chi, which is Mandarin. Written Chinese has changed over the years but it is unrelated to dialect. There is only 2 official written Chinese set of characters, Longhand and shorthand. The shorthand was further developed during the communists years cause those lazy bums never really worked a day in their life and it reflected in their writing also.

The explaination from jmercer about prebirth qi and afterbirth qi is exactly what I was talking about when I refered to chi and real chi... However now I can't remember which was which but the afterbirth qi is the one where you develop as you grow, its like your normal physical energy.

[The elementalist]

Well if chi is tempurature regulation and chi orginates in a well structured system of society in which some martial artist bond with cold blooded creatures, than this is not far off...

Alchemy is simular... ores and acids...causing a strange chemical reaction like that of radiation or nuclear waste. Also, if the moon consist of ores that were once with in thee atmosphere... defied basic earth physics, such as momentum in force, we would be more metal inclined enities...inwhich we would be super electric...And you can see in nature how ancient societies have worked around these baci nessicities and wants, such as pyramids consisting of lime stone, and other ores and stones...that are inducting natural grounded statlites...that makes these so called magic men of kabbalh routed power...
Which shoes up in free masotic esoteric art, such as the dollar bill...

If one can magnetize them selves enough to cause heat, as well as heating tissue from means of acidified organs (weird alchemy effect?)..They CAN draw in charged paticles to create fire...


In accupuncture, the needles make up for lack of metal properties...

[RSLancastr]

If one can magnetize them selves enough to cause heat, as well as heating tissue from means of acidified organs (weird alchemy effect?)..They CAN draw in charged paticles to create fire...Okay, when did Pillory get a sock puppet?

[c4ts]

Well if chi is tempurature regulation and chi orginates in a well structured system of society in which some martial artist bond with cold blooded creatures, than this is not far off...

Alchemy is simular... ores and acids...causing a strange chemical reaction like that of radiation or nuclear waste. Also, if the moon consist of ores that were once with in thee atmosphere... defied basic earth physics, such as momentum in force, we would be more metal inclined enities...inwhich we would be super electric...And you can see in nature how ancient societies have worked around these baci nessicities and wants, such as pyramids consisting of lime stone, and other ores and stones...that are inducting natural grounded statlites...that makes these so called magic men of kabbalh routed power...
Which shoes up in free masotic esoteric art, such as the dollar bill...

If one can magnetize them selves enough to cause heat, as well as heating tissue from means of acidified organs (weird alchemy effect?)..They CAN draw in charged paticles to create fire...


In accupuncture, the needles make up for lack of metal properties...

WHAAAA???

Okay, take that from the top... Martial artists bond with cold blooded creatures? Chi is temperature regulation? Can you explain, please?

[c4ts]

Okay, when did Pillory get a sock puppet?

This has got to be somebody's sock puppet. The genuine woos aren't nearly that bad.

[The elementalist]

I understand you misunderstanding....is it that unclear? Have you ever expereinced chi, aside from thoughts of disease and virus or can you not even imagine?

It is the control of electrical properties with in and in enviorment, I was assumin...you would know this.

[c4ts]

I understand you misunderstanding....is it that unclear? Have you ever expereinced chi, aside from thoughts of disease and virus or can you not even imagine?

It is the control of electrical properties with in and in enviorment, I was assumin...you would know this.

I think you're changing your definition of "chi." I asked why you said chi was temperature regulation, and instead of answering my question you added electrical properties and disease to the definition.

[The elementalist]

Yes, I neologize...no I did not change the menaing for this though...I merely stated thee obvious, assuming your were more stable, intellectually...

[c4ts]

My ability to comprehend your wisdom depends on your ability to form coherent sentences, which is currently nil.

[thaiboxerken]

I think the elementalist get's his info from roleplaying books.

[Freakshow]

I think the elementalist get's his info from roleplaying books.

And I've got to roll 1d6 to see if I am going to get the F*** out of this thread.........................yep, I'm out of here.

[Francois Tremblay]

But somehow he's smart enough to use words like "neologize".

[luchog]

But somehow he's smart enough to use words like "neologize".
Though not correctly.

[c4ts]

And I've got to roll 1d6 to see if I am going to get the F*** out of this thread.........................yep, I'm out of here.

Only 1d6? Spend some Karma and improve your Posting skill!

[The elementalist]

Though not correctly.

how so?

Grammatically or out of context?

[Metullus]

Though not correctly.
Well he spelled it correctly. I think.

[Piscivore]

Dang, I was hoping to get a pretty amnesiac robot girl of my own...