Norway, richest country in history - The English are not impressed

[Ryokan]

Yeah, I know, yet another Norway thread. I promise this will be the last :)

Next year Norway will have a 64 billion US dollar surplus to add to our savings, which 20,3% of our GNP. The money will be added to the government 'Oil Fund' that is already over 150 billion US dollars.

This makes Norway the richest country in history of mankind. (http://www.dn.no/forsiden/politikkSamfunn/article596081.ece) (the article is in Norwegian, I'm afraid, but the Danes on this forum can confirm it)

If the money was to be handed out to all Norwegians, we would each get 50 000 US dollars.

Norway's average annual budget is about 92 billion US dollars, so if we stopped ALL taxes and government income now, Norway would still run for over two years.

The English, however, are not impressed. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=362369&in_page_id=1770)

[CapelDodger]

The Daily Hate-Mail does not speak for England. I've spent a lot of my life there, so I know. It speaks mostly for Middle England, as bland a concept as anyone can invent. Normally they excoriate multi-culturalism, partying, binge-drinking, lack of respect for (their) authority, yadda yadda ... But when it comes to arguing that Britain is Better, they suddenly laud them as evidence of our "passion". Pass the sick-bag ...

Personally, I've liked all the Norwegians I've met, but then we've all been drunk at the time.

(edited for reasons)

[Renfield]

So how much truth is there in the article?

I don't know if you can point to Norway as a model, since you have all that oil money. It tends to scew things.

And 8 dollars for a pint? I think I'd have to live near the border, for sure.

[Ryokan]

Originally posted by Renfield
So how much truth is there in the article?

I'm afraid I tend to agree with the article on most points.

We just had an election, and leading up to the election all we heard from the politicians from opposition parties were doom and gloom stories about how bad it is to live in Norway.

Most Norwegians agreed, and voted the Socialist into power to 'fix things'.

The only party on the political right to join in with doom and gloom stories, the Progress Party, is now Norway's second largest party.

We're living in the richest and best (according the the UN) country in the world, and all we do is whine about it :)

[CapelDodger]

Originally posted by Ryokan
We're living in the richest and best (according the the UN) country in the world, and all we do is whine about it :) You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone ... Human nature, I'm afraid.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Ryokan
Yeah, I know, yet another Norway thread. I promise this will be the last :)


I think this would qualify as the record for the most threads started on Norway in any Internet Forum. Congratulations.

[kimiko]

Originally posted by Ryokan
Yeah, I know, yet another Norway thread. I promise this will be the last :) No, no, we can have more! Maybe ones about immigration policies and how hard/easy it is for native English speakers to learn Norwegian. :D

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Ryokan
This makes Norway the richest country in history of mankind. (http://www.dn.no/forsiden/politikkSamfunn/article596081.ece) (the article is in Norwegian, I'm afraid, but the Danes on this forum can confirm it)

No, actually, we can't. Fellows, it's actually an article on the growing sexual abuse of mountain goats.... :D

Originally posted by Ryokan
If the money was to be handed out to all Norwegians, we would each get 50 000 US dollars.

Yeah, but who wants US dollars today??

Originally posted by Ryokan
The English, however, are not impressed. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=362369&in_page_id=1770)

Of course not. They have never gotten over LINDISFARNE!

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
The Daily Hate-Mail does not speak for England. I've spent a lot of my life there, so I know. It speaks mostly for Middle England, as bland a concept as anyone can invent.

Obviously worth pointing out that CapelDodger speaks entirely for himself and not for any other persons, people, social or cultural group contained or not contained in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Including but not excluding all Islands and colonies.

In fact, all CapelDodger speaks for a single welshman, as pathetic a concept as anyone can invent.

[brodski]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Of course not. They have never gotten over LINDISFARNE!

Ok so "fog on the tyne" wasn't a great song, and that ill advised colabartion with Gaza was just plain embarrasing, but to suggest that these things have scarred the nations mentel health?

dare I ask for evidence?
:D

[Tmy]

Richests country! Did they finally cash in all that naazi gold!:p

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by Ryokan
[B]Yeah, I know, yet another Norway thread. I promise this will be the last :)


I don't see why it should. They are a nice diversion from all the Palestine/Israel threads and Bush is an idiot threads...

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
No, actually, we can't. Fellows, it's actually an article on the growing sexual abuse of mountain goats.... :D

Which just goes to show what happens when you allow de facto gay marriage. Americans beware! You must stop those activist judges.

[CapelDodger]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
In fact, all CapelDodger speaks for a single welshman, as pathetic a concept as anyone can invent. Once again, with feeling I AM NOT WELSH. Did your Mum get startled by Tom Jones while you were in the womb or something?

I'll pass on your view of "a single Welshman" to Scott Gibbs. :bgrin:

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Once again, with feeling I AM NOT WELSH.

I thought "Welsh" was a brand of grape juice. What do you have against grape juice? It's pretty good. Especially if you pour it into little cups and freeze it, then you have grape juice popsicles.

As for "Norway", I thought a bunch of educated skeptics would have realized that there's no such place: it's entirely mythical, like Atlantis, Mu, Lemuria, Switzerland, and the Seven Cities of Cibola. It started out as a medieval hoax, but now people continue it as a sort of tax shelter.

[CapelDodger]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
I thought "Welsh" was a brand of grape juice. What do you have against grape juice? It's pretty good. Especially if you pour it into little cups and freeze it, then you have grape juice popsicles.

As for "Norway", I thought a bunch of educated skeptics would have realized that there's no such place: it's entirely mythical, like Atlantis, Mu, Lemuria, Switzerland, and the Seven Cities of Cibola. It started out as a medieval hoax, but now people continue it as a sort of tax shelter. So where does the Norwegian Blue parrot come from, eh? Switzerland?

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Once again, with feeling I AM NOT WELSH.

In denial are we?

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
So where does the Norwegian Blue parrot come from, eh? Switzerland?

It's a taxonomic misnomer. The Norwegian Blue Parrot is actually a type of reindeer native to Sweden, Finland, and Borneo.

[mummymonkey]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Once again, with feeling I AM NOT WELSHThat's what they all say.

[Ryokan]

Lately, some people have claimed that the Norwegian Blue is, in fact, extinct.

This is not true. It's just resting.

[Cain]

Originally posted by Ryokan
Yeah, I know, yet another Norway thread. I promise this will be the last :)

Next year Norway will have a 64 billion US dollar surplus to add to our savings, which 20,3% of our GNP. The money will be added to the government 'Oil Fund' that is already over 150 billion US dollars.

This makes Norway the richest country in history of mankind. (http://www.dn.no/forsiden/politikkSamfunn/article596081.ece) (the article is in Norwegian, I'm afraid, but the Danes on this forum can confirm it)

If the money was to be handed out to all Norwegians, we would each get 50 000 US dollars.

Norway's average annual budget is about 92 billion US dollars, so if we stopped ALL taxes and government income now, Norway would still run for over two years.

The English, however, are not impressed. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=362369&in_page_id=1770)

And what else does Norway have that other Scandinivan countries do not? Ah yes, good neighbors.

I understand Norway is a rather enlighened country that possesses a concept of intergenerational justice. That is to say, it recognizes the riches from its collective natural resources do not belong exclusively to its current citizens.

[Ryokan]

Originally posted by Cain
And what else does Norway have that other Scandinivan countries do not? Ah yes, good neighbors.

Well, we were the only NATO country to border the Soviet Union during the cold war, and we were prepared to become the front if the war ever became 'warm'.

I remember when I was in the army in 1994 (after the Soviet Union fell, but the relationship with Russia was still far from good), I was stationed at the Russian border.

Norway was sending up a weather satelite when the rocket failed and flew into Russia. The Russians went MAD! Boris Yeltzin was on tv with his nuclear suitcase opened, threatening us.

Suddenly, we are told that the Russian army is rushing towards the border at great speeds, so we took up position and waited for them to come. The Russians stopped a few miles short of the border, then turned around, happy now that they've scared the living crap out of us.

Ah, those were interesting times.

These days we're enjoying a very good relationship with the Russians, something I'm very glad for.

Originally posted by Cain
I understand Norway is a rather enlighened country that possesses a concept of intergenerational justice. That is to say, it recognizes the riches from its collective natural resources do not belong exclusively to its current citizens.

Yes.

Believe me, I'm far from being a socialist, but nationalizing the oil industry was the best thing to ever happen to our country.

And we realize the oil will some day dry up, and are saving money for that time.

[Ryokan]

Double post :/

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Once again, with feeling [exasp]I AM NOT WELSH[/exaspAh ... the 'no true welshman' again :)

[CapelDodger]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
It's a taxonomic misnomer. Oh crap, another taxonomy thread. :slp:

[Hutch]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
In denial are we?


No, you find Egyptians in Denial.....

[CapelDodger]

Originally posted by Ryokan
Well, we were the only NATO country to border the Soviet Union during the cold war ...Turkey? Suddenly, we are told that the Russian army is rushing towards the border at great speeds, so we took up position and waited for them to come. The Russians stopped a few miles short of the border, then turned around, happy now that they've scared the living crap out of us.Were they right? From my vantage it was posturing nonsense, Yeltsin was a clown, there were acres of suits and uniforms to insulate him, but that was a very different vantage from yours.

Ah, those were interesting times.Does it make you appreciate the benefits of the humdrum life?And we realize the oil will some day dry up, and are saving money for that time. I hope Norway is investing most of it productively, for the long-term. Not something the Saudis seem to have bothered with much. After the oil, Saudi Arabia will be a lot of sand just as it used to be, but Norway was more than a lot of ice and snow before the oil (and gas). An educated, healthy, cohesive, rational society.

:slp:

With a monarchy.

Have the Norwegians ever been so immoderate as to execute a monarch? I've just realised that I hardly know any Norwegion history between Cnut and 1939, except from the Swedish angle. Swedish history I know somewhat because they put themselves about immoderately, with the Baltic Empire and reminding the Russians who they got their civilisation from. Norwegians, not so much.

[CapelDodger]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
In denial are we? Not "we", but apparently you, since you reject the evidence of your senses. I [/i]live[/i] in Wales. I used to live in London. I've lived in Wessex, Sussex, Mercia and Anglia in my time. I am of the wandering Tribe of Erud, although some claim I'm of the Ghobsh.

[karl]

Originally posted by Ryokan
If the money was to be handed out to all Norwegians, we would each get 50 000 US dollars.

Which would buy you what, roughly two pizzas and a beer in Norway?

[Ryokan]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Turkey?

Where and how did Turkey share border with the Soviet Union?


Originally posted by CapelDodger

Were they right? From my vantage it was posturing nonsense, Yeltsin was a clown, there were acres of suits and uniforms to insulate him, but that was a very different vantage from yours.

Were they right about what? The rocket flying into Russia was an accident, and their response was sabre rattling for the sake of sabre rattling, and highly overreactive. Not to mention that it scared the bejeezus out of me. We were 400 men, and waiting for the might of the Russian army to hit us. It was all really surreal.

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Does it make you appreciate the benefits of the humdrum life?I hope Norway is investing most of it productively, for the long-term.

It's not long ago that Norway was one of the poorest country in Europe, so we really should appreciate it. But most are not, believe it or not.

But yes, the money is invested, not stashed away in some underground vault :)

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Have the Norwegians ever been so immoderate as to execute a monarch?

Nope.

[Orwell]

Originally posted by Ryokan
Believe me, I'm far from being a socialist, but nationalizing the oil industry was the best thing to ever happen to our country.

And we realize the oil will some day dry up, and are saving money for that time.

I wish Canadians had this much good sense... But alas... :(

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by Ryokan
Where and how did Turkey share border with the Soviet Union?When Georgia (and Armenia) were part of the Sovjet Union?

It's not long ago that Norway was one of the poorest country in Europe, so we really should appreciate it.Ah ... it has been a hundred year or so, those who lived then are all dead.

But yes, the money is invested, not stashed away in some underground vault :)Even better, the investments are taken care of by a range of international investment companies - the idea being that

1) It's too much money to be invested in Norway
2) A larger number of investment companies lower the risk

Alpha Investment Management Pty Ltd
Blackrock International Ltd
Capital International Limited
Fidelity Pensions Management
Gartmore Investment Management
JP Morgan Investment Management Inc
Legg Mason Capital Management
New Smith Asset Management LLP
Primecap Management Company
Schroder Investment Management
Sparx Asset Management
T Rowe Price Associates Inc
Wellington Management Company PLC
Alliance Capital Management LP
Columbus Circle Investors
Deutsche Asset Management
Fidelity Pensions Management
Gartmore Investment Managment PLC
OrbiMed Capital LLC
Schroder Investment Management
Sector Asset Management ASA
T Rowe Price Associates Inc
Wellington Management Company
WH Reaves & Co, Inc.
Bridgewater Associates Inc
Daiwa SB Investments (UK) Ltd
Delaware Investment Advisers
European Credit Management Limited
Hyperion Capital Management Inc
Insight Investment Management (Global) Limited
Lincoln Capital Management
Merrill Lynch Investment Managers
Morgan Stanley Investment Management
Nomura Asset Management U.K.
PanAgora Asset Management Inc.
Pareto Partners
Putnam Advisory Company LLC
Smith Breeden Associates Inc
State Street Global Advisors
TCW Asset Management Company

[Ryokan]

Originally posted by Bjorn
When Georgia (and Armenia) were part of the Sovjet Union?

I stand corrected.

Originally posted by Bjorn
Ah ... it has been a hundred year or so, those who lived then are all dead.

Hundred years? The oil was discovered in the 60's, and prior to that discovery, Norway was pi**-poor.

[CapelDodger]

Originally posted by Ryokan
Where and how did Turkey share border with the Soviet Union?Armenia and Georgia, and the other side of the Black Sea.




Were they right about what? ... Not to mention that it scared the bejeezus out of me. We were 400 men, and waiting for the might of the Russian army to hit us. It was all really surreal.About the scaring, which apparently they were. Intellectually, which was the only way I had to approach it, it was clearly sabre-rattling. But on the ground, all those tragic, pointless wars triggered by stupdity must spring to mind. I'm not surprised that "surreal" is the only way to describe it.

I was living in a garrison city when the Falklands War actually happened. I can only describe that as "surreal". As it happens, nobody I knew didn't come back, but they all came back different.

It's not long ago that Norway was one of the poorest country in Europe ...But still well-ahead on a world-scale.But yes, the money is invested, not stashed away in some underground vault :)I never doubted it. :)

The big, inter-linked challenges to Norway are common to Western Europe : demographics and immigration.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Ryokan
I stand corrected.



Hundred years? The oil was discovered in the 60's, and prior to that discovery, Norway was pi**-poor.

Yes, prior to oil it was sardines.

Generations of manly and virile Norwayguys, manfully heading out to sea with their sardine poles. I remember it well. That was when Norwayguys were manly, and and virile. And they would exercise every ounce of thair virileness to wrestle the king sardines over the side and haul them to the scuppers. There, working by sardine-oil lamps the Norwaygals would stuff the still thrashing and dangerous king sardines into those teeny weenie cans. Many a good Norwayperson was thrust over the side during the heat of the sardine run.

Good times, but hard. Aye.

[Grammatron]

Ryokan, if Norway and Superman were fighting, who would win?

[Ryokan]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Ryokan, if Norway and Superman were fighting, who would win?

hmm, I was afraid I'd come off as a nationalist and patriot.

Truth is, I'm neither. I'm a liberal (in the European sense of the word), don't believe in national borders and consider mysef a citizen of the world.

If it was up to me, we'd share our wealth with those in need instead of hoarding it all to ourselves, and open up our borders to anyone who wished to live here.

But to answer your question, I don't believe in Superman ;)

(edited for words)

[CapelDodger]

Originally posted by Ed
Yes, prior to oil it was sardines.Ryokan : to such as Ed, Norway, Portugal, it's all Europe, whatever ... No appreciation of the profound difference between the mighty cod and the sardine (which Ed probably couldn't tell from a pilchard). The role of the Norwegian sea-farer in history is lost on the standard 'Murrican. Along with much else.

[CapelDodger]

Originally posted by Ryokan
Truth is, I'm neither. I'm a liberal (in the European sense of the word), don't believe in national borders and consider mysef a citizen of the world.You agree with me so much it scares me. :eek:

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by Ryokan
IHundred years? The oil was discovered in the 60's, and prior to that discovery, Norway was pi**-poor. No.

If you think Norway was pi** poor in 1960 - well before the first oil discoveries in the North Sea - you have to re-read history. :)

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Ryokan
hmm, I was afraid I'd come off as a nationalist and patriot.

Truth is, I'm neither. I'm a liberal (in the European sense of the word), don't believe in national borders and consider mysef a citizen of the world.

If it was up to me, we'd share our wealth with those in need instead of hoarding it all to ourselves, and open up our borders to anyone who wished to live here.

But to answer your question, I don't believe in Superman ;)

(edited for words)

Do you believe in sense of humor? :(

[Ryokan]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Do you believe in sense of humor? :(

Oh, gosh.

Yes, I certainly do.

However, my fear of coming off as a supernorwegianmegapatriot were pretty real.

[Ryokan]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Ryokan : to such as Ed, Norway, Portugal, it's all Europe, whatever ... No appreciation of the profound difference between the mighty cod and the sardine (which Ed probably couldn't tell from a pilchard). The role of the Norwegian sea-farer in history is lost on the standard 'Murrican. Along with much else.

I though Ed painted a pretty accurate picture of what pre-oil Norway looked like, as it was pretty much the same as we were taught in local history in school :D

The town I'm from used to be the sardine capital of Norway, and if I ever see one more picture of a sea thick with small ships of sailors on their way out to battle the mighty sardine, I've seen one too many :p

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Ryokan
Oh, gosh.

Yes, I certainly do.

However, my fear of coming off as a supernorwegianmegapatriot were pretty real.

I don't care if you are I just thought it was a nice funny question to ask.

Heck Norway could be #1 country in the world in every category for all I care. Means nothing to me.

[Tony]

Serious question.

Wouldn't Norway qualify as a good example of how freemarket economics aren't the best road to wealth?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Tony
Serious question.

Wouldn't Norway qualify as a good example of how freemarket economics aren't the best road to wealth?

No, because if you remove the oil their economy changes completely.

It does qualify as good example of how oil economies can benefit the people and not just the rulers. If Middle East was like Norway the world would be a much better place.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Grammatron
No, because if you remove the oil their economy changes completely.

So? That doesn't change the fact that, in reality, it has happened. And if it's simply because of the oil, why doesn't the US (since we had/have oil) enjoy the level of prosperity currently enjoyed in Norway?

I think there's a better answer than "it's the oil".

And if questioned on the success of pure capitalism, you could just as easily say "it's just because of the * insert whatever product(s) happen to drive the economy*".

It does qualify as good example of how oil economies can benefit the people and not just the rulers...

..or, like in the US, the corporate aristocracy.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by Tony
So? That doesn't change the fact that, in reality, it has happened. And if it's simply because of the oil, when doesn't the US (since we had/have oil) enjoy the level of prosperity currently enjoyed in Norway?
They have much more (at least per inhabitant).

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Tony
So? That doesn't change the fact that, in reality, it has happened. And if it's simply because of the oil, when doesn't the US (since we had/have oil) enjoy the level of prosperity currently enjoyed in Norway?

What level is that? USA is the most powerful economy in the world with the most GDP - per capita. How do you measure prosperity?

I think there's a better answer than "it's the oil".

Well it is oil, no one denies it.

..or, like in the US, the corporate aristocracy.
WTF is that?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Tony

And if questioned on the success of pure capitalism, you could just as easily say "it's just because of the * insert whatever product(s) happen to drive the economy*".

You made and edit while I was posting so here's my response to that:

USA does not have pure capitalism.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Grammatron

What level is that?

You need to re-read the OP and inform yourself as to the subject at hand if you have to ask such a question. That very question is the subject of the entire thread.

USA is the most powerful economy in the world with the most GDP - per capita.

So? ISince Norway is the richest, a high GDP, obviously hasn't done as much for us.

How do you measure prosperity?

Me personally?

I honestly don't know. I guess I'd say I measure it on the basis of how much wealth and buying power is enjoyed by the poorest people in the country.

WTF is that?

What don't you understand?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Grammatron
USA does not have pure capitalism.

I am asking about completely free-market economics/pure capitalism. Not the US per se.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Tony
I am asking about completely free-market economics/pure capitalism. Not the US per se.

I don't believe those can exist.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Kerberos
They have much more (at least per inhabitant).

Ahh so their small population is also a factor.

Let's pose a hypothetical. Suppose there were two countries with the exact same circumstances (population, oil, climate, EVERYTHING) as Norway's. One is a complete unregulated free market, and the other is like Norway's market. Which one would be richer?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Grammatron
I don't believe those can exist.

I don't either, but they exist in theory. Why don't you believe they can exist?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Tony
You need to re-read the OP and inform yourself as to the subject at hand if you have to ask such a question. That very question is the subject of the entire thread.

Well sure if USA would have some crazy tax that they would spend on nothing we would be rich too. However, we have no need for it since our economy is diverse enough to not rely on any one commodity. Norway is smart enough to look into the future which is why they are doing it.

So? ISince Norway is the richest, a high GDP, obviously hasn't done as much for us.

How do you figure? We may not be #1 in having money sit around in one account, but our citizens earn more on average.

Me personally?

I honestly don't know. I guess I'd say I measure it on the basis of how much wealth and buying power is enjoyed by the poorest people in the country.

Define "poorest."

And USA would not come out on top because....?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Tony
I don't either, but they exist in theory. Why don't you believe they can exist?

Humans mess up all the theories.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Grammatron
We may not be #1 in having money sit around in one account, but our citizens earn more on average.

We do? Can you supply a comparison? Do our citizens have just as much buying power?

Define "poorest."

It's pretty self explanatory. Poorest, ya know, the lowest class, the ones with the least amount of money/buying power?

And USA would not come out on top because....?

Wrong question. The USA would come out on top because...?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Tony
We do? Can you supply a comparison? Do our citizens have just as much buying power?

More according to CIA's world factbook.

It's pretty self explanatory. Poorest, ya know, the lowest class, the ones with the least amount of money/buying power?

Well how poor? Homeless, $0, leaving in a cartboard box poor?

Wrong question. The USA would come out on top because...?
Because we have more money per capita.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by Tony
Ahh so their small population is also a factor.
Well, 150 Billion dollars divided by 5 million is more than 150 Billion divided by 300 Million.

Originally posted by Tony
Let's pose a hypothetical. Suppose there were two countries with the exact same circumstances (population, oil, climate, EVERYTHING) as Norway's. One is a complete unregulated free market, and the other is like Norway's market. Which one would be richer?
Norway of course, I suspect that a totally unregulated market would be a bigger and more spectacular disaster than a totaly regulated one was. I don't see the relevance of the hypothetical though.

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by Grammatron
More according to CIA's world factbook.

Because we have more money per capita. Norway's GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) - $40,000 (2004 est.)

USA's GDP per capita (purchasing power parity - $40,100 (2004 est.)

Originally posted by Grammatron
No, because if you remove the oil their economy changes completely. It changes, a lottery jackpot does that even to a country. However, Norway was doing quite well before oil became a factor.

In 1950 our part of the list (GDP per capita) looked like this - US was on top:

7. United Kingdom $6847
8. Sweden $6738
9. Denmark $6683
10. Netherlands $5850
11. Belgium $5346
12. France $5221
13. Argentina $4987
14. Norway $4969

1973 (US was second after Switzerland)):

8. Netherlands $12763
9. New Zealand $12575
10. Australia $12485
11. United Kingdom $11992
12. Belgium $11905
13. Austria $11308
14. Japan $11017
15. Finland $10768
16. Venezuela $10717
17. Italy $10409
18. Norway $10229

Norway had practically zero income from oil at those times, and to say it was a 'pi** poor' country is just wrong.

Originally posted by Tony
Wouldn't Norway qualify as a good example of how freemarket economics aren't the best road to wealth?Since oil is disturbing the picture, maybe you should look at the other countries with the 'Scandinavian Social Democracy' model.

Sweden:

1973 - 4. Sweden $13494
2003 - 25. Sweden $28372

Denmark (has some oil, but not jackpot-sized):

1973 - 5. Denmark $13416
2003 - 11. Denmark $32104

Originally posted by Tony
Let's pose a hypothetical. Suppose there were two countries with the exact same circumstances (population, oil, climate, EVERYTHING) as Norway's. One is a complete unregulated free market, and the other is like Norway's market. Which one would be richer?I think that is a definition - would you consider the 'country' just as rich whether the oil money was in one private company's bank account or distributed to the citizens?

[Ryokan]

Originally posted by Tony
Let's pose a hypothetical. Suppose there were two countries with the exact same circumstances (population, oil, climate, EVERYTHING) as Norway's. One is a complete unregulated free market, and the other is like Norway's market. Which one would be richer?

In Norway, we have nationalized the oil industry, so all surplus from oil is going into the government surplus.

In a 'complete unregulated free market' that surplus would go to big business, with the government only being able to tax it.

[karl]

Originally posted by Grammatron
What level is that? USA is the most powerful economy in the world with the most GDP - per capita. How do you measure prosperity?


Most powerful economy in the world -- yes. But if you check the CIA World Factbook a bit more thoroughly, I think you will find that Luxembourg has a much higher GDP per capita.

[luchog]

Originally posted by Bjorn
No.

If you think Norway was pi** poor in 1960 - well before the first oil discoveries in the North Sea - you have to re-read history. :)

Prosperous countries don't come up with s--t like lutefisk.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Kerberos
They have much more (at least per inhabitant).

Norway has about as much population as Atlanta, Georgia but produces more total oil than the US. Plus, it's mostly light sweet oil.

The oil production comes out to about 3/4 barrel per day per Norwegian. At current prices, that's about a minimum wage salary for every Norwegian, just from oil.

That doesn't even count the lutefisk industry.

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by luchog
Prosperous countries don't come up with s--t like lutefisk. ... or Bud Light. :(