Environmental Policy May Have Doomed Shuttle Columbia

[Jedi Knight]

Because of the invasive "environmental" agenda that leaves no stone unturned in reality, the space shuttle Columbia may have been doomed because of changes in the primary booster rocket insulation (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30824).

The new foam, deemed "enviro-friendly", apparently was not friendly to the space shuttle mission. On lift-off, large sections of the politically correct "enviro-foam" detached from the main rocket and slammed into the shuttle body.

I guess in this case environmentalism (leftism) run amok kills.

JK

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The link is to WorldNetDaily. So I didn't even bother reading it. Please provide a credible link.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Because of the invasive "environmental" agenda that leaves no stone unturned in reality, the space shuttle Columbia may have been doomed because of changes in the primary booster rocket insulation (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30824).

The new foam, deemed "enviro-friendly", apparently was not friendly to the space shuttle mission. On lift-off, large sections of the politically correct "enviro-foam" detached from the main rocket and slammed into the shuttle body.

I guess in this case environmentalism (leftism) run amok kills.

JK

Do you get paid to do this?

My completely uneducated guess, is that the mistake was caused by an old shuttle, and not everything being repaired to the full extent.

[Blue Monk]

Damn, what next? References from the National Enquirer?

[subgenius]

Sen. Bill Nelson, a Florida Democrat, told CNN the administration had been delaying safety upgrades on the space shuttle.

"That is inexcusable," said Nelson, who once flew on the shuttle.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5-2003Feb2.html

I apologize for the citing of a credible source.
:rolleyes:

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Whodini
My completely uneducated guess, is that the mistake was caused by an old shuttle, and not everything being repaired to the full extent.
Sorry, more non-tabloid sources:
"Like the other shuttles Columbia had been flying for twice as long as its designers first envisaged. Some parts were made so long ago, in the early 1970s, that they were no longer available. Engineers said yesterday that they have had to turn to the internet auction site eBay for spare parts. "
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...-564778,00.html

Huh?:eek:

[subgenius]

Environmentalism=commie=atheist=bad.
(Good thing good people don't live in the environment.)

Another case of finding any alleged facts to fit a preconceived notion, rather than letting the facts take you where they may.
Quite a skeptic.

[subgenius]

Oh, now I get it. Let's pollute the environment and save future space shuttles.
What a tool.

[Sanamas]

Ah, I was wondering how you would be able to tie this into your usual kind of posts, Jedi. I guess I now have the answer.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
I guess.......
JK
Well this much of the post is certainly true.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Sanamas
Ah, I was wondering how you would be able to tie this into your usual kind of posts, Jedi. I guess I now have the answer.
Same old, same old: start with a conclusion.

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by subgenius

Sorry, more non-tabloid sources:
"Like the other shuttles Columbia had been flying for twice as long as its designers first envisaged. Some parts were made so long ago, in the early 1970s, that they were no longer available. Engineers said yesterday that they have had to turn to the internet auction site eBay for spare parts. "
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...-564778,00.html

Huh?:eek:

I've been hearing a lot of contradictory information concerning this.

I guy on TV (so you know it true) was saying that the actual age was not as important as the number of missions and the the shuttles were designed for 100 flights but that they may have to rethink that.

Sorry I don't have a link.

Real men don't use credible sources.

;)

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Blue Monk


I've been hearing a lot of contradictory information concerning this.

I guy on TV (so you know it true) was saying that the actual age was not as important as the number of missions and the the shuttles were designed for 100 flights but that they may have to rethink that.

Sorry I don't have a link.

Real men don't use credible sources.

;)
Just supporting brother Who's gut feeling.

"They may have to rethink that..." Up or down?

[subgenius]

I think the shuttle was doomed by Matriarchal Totalitarian commie atheists.
Call your mother today, tell her you love her. ;)

[richardm]

Originally posted by Blue Monk

I guy on TV (so you know it true) was saying that the actual age was not as important as the number of missions and the the shuttles were designed for 100 flights but that they may have to rethink that.


I think that the 100 flight thing is something that came out of the inquiry into the Challenger explosion; they reckoned that the chances of failure were 1 per 100 flights. ("Management" reckoned 1 per 10,000 flights.).

From Feynman's notes (http://www.uky.edu/~holler/msc/roles/feynrept.html)

Just a note, remember that the Shuttle uses a new main fuel tank each time. These are not re-used; they burn up in the atmosphere on each flight.

Obviously the central problem could still have been caused by the age of the Shuttle, but the foam falling off could not have been.

----
was saying that the actual age was not as important as the number of missions and the the shuttles were designed for 100 flights but that they may have to rethink that.
----


Of course the age is important, because it says if any parts are old or not.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by subgenius
Sen. Bill Nelson, a Florida Democrat, told CNN the administration had been delaying safety upgrades on the space shuttle.

"That is inexcusable," said Nelson, who once flew on the shuttle.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5-2003Feb2.html

I apologize for the citing of a credible source.
:rolleyes:

I don't know if I understand the point. Not implementing safety upgrades does not make it more dangerous. It just doesn't make it less dangerous.

If the current risk was unacceptable, then they should have never been flying the first place. That they were allowed to fly before the safety upgrades were available means that it must been decided that it was an acceptable risk.

Sure, we would all love to have the safety improved. However, safety improvements cost money, and there isn't enough to go around to be spending a lot on safety upgrades when you already have it at the "acceptable risk" level.

Second, do we know if these safety upgrades would have made a difference in this case? The one that is most commonly cited is the ejectable compartment, but as far as I know, you can't use it going Mach 17 at 200 000 feet.

It's kind of like having your car smashed by a side impact and then getting all upset because you never put those new high tech bumpers.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by sundog
Just a note, remember that the Shuttle uses a new main fuel tank each time. These are not re-used; they burn up in the atmosphere on each flight.

Obviously the central problem could still have been caused by the age of the Shuttle, but the foam falling off could not have been.

Hi Sundog, I am glad that you saw what I was saying, while most of the others did not (like usual).

It has to be put into perspective so others can understand what I am saying. For them I will break it down a little further so that hopefully it becomes clearer.

Now, we all hear the radical leftist environmentalists screaming and whining puppy-dog tears about SUV's. You get movie stars whining about SUV's, and yet if movie stars were soooo concerned about the environment they wouldn't burn 300,000 pounds of jet fuel in their private leer jets flying around to places to chew up resources everywhere. Movie stars also have to be tasked to explain why their hatred for SUV's has any purpose in reality when they leave 40 garbage cans full of garbage outside their houses for the trash man to pick up, while other people leave maybe 1/2 a bag for the garbage man.

So is the 1/2 a bag guy driving an SUV really doing more damage to the environment than the one movie star guy leaving 100 garbage bags a day and chewing up 300,000 pounds of jet fuel a week?

That is the hypocrisy that got the astronauts murdered, and yes they were murdered, because NASA bent to the pressure of radical environmental groups that had no business in the astronaut business.

Since we know that radical commie environmentalists want to completely get rid of SUV's and make everyone in the world (except them) drive Geo Prisms, it was only a matter of time before the radical enviro commies went after the ultimate SUV (space shuttle Columbia).

Since they forced the SUV (Columbia) to be turned into a Geo Prism (unsafe commie enviro agenda putting lives at risk), naturally deaths would result. When you are on the highway, would you rather be in an SUV or a Geo?

The answer is obvious. Too bad our astronauts were forced to drive the Geo instead of the SUV. They would still be alive.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Do you get paid to do this?

No, but I could probably make a fortune doing so.

JK

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Hi Sundog, I am glad that you saw what I was saying, while most of the others did not (like usual).

It has to be put into perspective so others can understand what I am saying. For them I will break it down a little further so that hopefully it becomes clearer.

Now, we all hear the radical leftist ...

Thanks for the compliment, but my eyes got all blurry about right here.

:D

I think most of the responders simply want a credible source first.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by sundog


Thanks for the compliment, but my eyes got all blurry about right here.

:D

I think most of the responders simply want a credible source first.

Turn on MSNBC right now. They are having breaking news about an internal memo after the launch when the enviro-commie foam damaged the shuttle on liftoff. Supposedly the memo talks about how the flight was doomed. That is incredible. It proves everything I just said.

JK

I wish I could, I'm at work.

There's a problem with your analysis, I think.

You are assuming the foam was changed because of pressure from the environmentalist groups. There is no evidence at all so far that that is the case. These decisions were made within NASA, in all likelihood, with no pressure from anywhere. At least we have no evidence yet that this is the case.

It isn't logical - to me - to lump in an engineer's natural concern for the environment with the groups you dislike. You seem to be saying that any regard for the environment at all, by anyone, is another example of the leftist etc. etc. etc.

If there was some record of environmental groups lobbying for this change, you'd have some kind of case, but I confess I don't see a case here for your argument.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by sundog
I wish I could, I'm at work.

There's a problem with your analysis, I think.

You are assuming the foam was changed because of pressure from the environmentalist groups. There is no evidence at all so far that that is the case. These decisions were made within NASA, in all likelihood, with no pressure from anywhere. At least we have no evidence yet that this is the case.

It isn't logical - to me - to lump in an engineer's natural concern for the environment with the groups you dislike. You seem to be saying that any regard for the environment at all, by anyone, is another example of the leftist etc. etc. etc.

If there was some record of environmental groups lobbying for this change, you'd have some kind of case, but I confess I don't see a case here for your argument.

Where does "enviro-friendly" propaganda come from? Did it originate with capitalists? No. The article I linked is fully credible. It is a fact that NASA switched to an unsafe "enviro-friendly" foam.

That's right. To get the radical enviro lobby off its back, NASA began implementing "enviro-friendly" parts (friendly so the leftist commie enviro groups would be friendly). "Enviro-friendly" is a form of racketeering. It is an IF THEN statement, where if the IF does not meet the radical enviro-lobby's agenda, the THEN becomes a form of punishment.

So IF the SUV driver doesn't get rid of his SUV and drive a GEO, THEN he is a very bad guy and a terrorist to the environment.

The same can be said for the shuttle. Since the shuttle foam originally used was enviro friendly but could be "friendlier", IF NASA didn't make it more enviro friendly THEN the enviro lobby wouldn't get off NASA's back.

That is how the game works. A simple IF THEN statement.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Take a look at this photo which appears to be a crack on the shuttle's wing (http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/2003/02_Febbraio/03/crepe.shtml) while it was in space.

The flight may have been doomed the instant the "enviro-friendly" foam fractured the wing. Nasa may have known the flight was doomed from the time it broke earth's atmosphere and didn't tell anyone about it. If that was true, they should have sent the astronauts to stay on the space station until a rescue shuttle could have gone up to retrieve them.

This story gets more exciting by the moment.

JK

[Tmy]

The shuttle is probably the biggest pollution mobile the world. Imagine the crap its spews every launch! I really doubt the enviro types had any influence on the ships design. Even now theyre telling people to stay away from the parts cause they may be radioactive n such. They make it sound like a flying dirty bomb.

But your right JK. If those damn evironmentalists let us burn off the ozone layer, the ship couldve entered the atmosphere under less stress!

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Tmy
The shuttle is probably the biggest pollution mobile the world. Imagine the crap its spews every launch! I really doubt the enviro types had any influence on the ships design. Even now theyre telling people to stay away from the parts cause they may be radioactive n such. They make it sound like a flying dirty bomb.

But your right JK. If those damn evironmentalists let us burn off the ozone layer, the ship couldve entered the atmosphere under less stress!

No, the parts were contaminated by the experiments onboard somehow. This shuttle flight was stuffed full of experimental equipment and lab experiments. All of that came apart in the atmosphere. That is why NASA doesn't want people to touch it.

Plus it was good spin for the leftist media to use to detract from the real enviro-terror policies that may have caused the destruction of the Columbia to begin with.

JK

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


No, the parts were contaminated by the experiments onboard somehow. This shuttle flight was stuffed full of experimental equipment and lab experiments. All of that came apart in the atmosphere. That is why NASA doesn't want people to touch it.

JK

That, and the chemicals that are on any shuttle are dangerous enough. Hydrazine is the only one I can remember off the top of my head.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. These being engineers we're talking about, there will be exact data on comparisons between the two methods of applying the foam (it seems to be a new method for applying the foam, not a new foam itself, unless I misread the article) regarding structural integrity, etc.

I still think we mustn't jump to conclusions. The Italian photo brings to mind people who "see things" in other Shuttle videos. We're just going to have to wait and see how it all plays out.

Tmy: There was nothing radioactive aboard the shuttle.

[Crossbow]

Let us ponder upon the a few of the qualities of the one who calls himself "Jedi Knight".

He cannot calculate percentages,

He knows nothing about physics,

He does not believe in evolution,

He hates women, and

He thinks humans originated on Mars.

Now then, this person wants people to accept his explanation for what went wrong with the 'Challenger' mission.

Nope! I do not accept his findings because demonstrated skills consist of nothing more than being able to post messages on the JREF Forum.

Bye for now!

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by sundog


That, and the chemicals that are on any shuttle are dangerous enough. Hydrazine is the only one I can remember off the top of my head.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. These being engineers we're talking about, there will be exact data on comparisons between the two methods of applying the foam (it seems to be a new method for applying the foam, not a new foam itself, unless I misread the article) regarding structural integrity, etc.

I still think we mustn't jump to conclusions. The Italian photo brings to mind people who "see things" in other Shuttle videos. We're just going to have to wait and see how it all plays out.

Tmy: There was nothing radioactive aboard the shuttle.

That photo was quite good. You can clearly see a fracture in the wing that has separated at least three inches. That video feed is lowband too, giving anyone in the world with the proper equipment the ability to see those images like turning on a television if they go and get the frequency.

That is what makes the image so brilliant. It clearly shows that while the shuttle was in space it was damaged and Nasa had to have known about it. Not only did they have to know about it, they ordered the shuttle to land, knowing it was damaged, in my opinion.

Then MSNBC says there was an internal memo that said basically the same thing--while the shuttle was in space, but the folks at Nasa seem to have "forgotten" about the "memo" lol. It is watergate-esque.

The bottom line though, and just to be clear, I don't care about the memo. I don't care about the decision to send them back--it is a risk just going to space.

What I do care about is the radial leftist tendrils of communism like radical environmentalism that has seeped into all our institutions and may have played the critical role in the destruction of the space shuttle Columbia.

The wreckage is another matter. If they were doing sensitive experiments that had dangerous materials, some of those materials may have made it back to land. So I agree the public should keep their hands off the wreckage, especially the cracked wing caused by the leftist enviro-friendly foam.

JK

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by subgenius

Sorry, more non-tabloid sources:
"Like the other shuttles Columbia had been flying for twice as long as its designers first envisaged. Some parts were made so long ago, in the early 1970s, that they were no longer available. Engineers said yesterday that they have had to turn to the internet auction site eBay for spare parts. "
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...-564778,00.html

Huh?:eek:

I've been in discussions where NASA guys bragged about this. They considered it quite innovative. Where would you buy replacement 8086 chips? (http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2002may/gee20020514011664.htm)

Neither of your links works for me, by the way.

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


That is what makes the image so brilliant. It clearly shows that while the shuttle was in space it was damaged and Nasa had to have known about it. Not only did they have to know about it, they ordered the shuttle to land, knowing it was damaged, in my opinion.

JK

Hang on a sec, there. ;)

You're already accusing NASA of a coverup. The shuttle would have had to land anyway; they didn't have the capacity to fix it out there. Even if they HAD known, they would have done exactly the same thing, and they've been quite public about saying so. There's just no contingency plan for something like this going wrong. You can't accuse them of a conspiracy to do something they've been quite up front about saying they'd have had to do anyway.

I'm not a shuttle expert and I daresay neither are you; I want to hear what the experts have to say about all of it, including of course that photo. To me the photo is just inconclusive. The crooked line runs across two different objects without changing much, it could be something completely innocent, even something like a hair on the lens. We just don't know yet.

----
Let us ponder upon the a few of the qualities of the one who calls himself "Jedi Knight".
...
----


Anyway.

That list is irrelevent to Jedi's current point.

Try staying skeptical instead of cynical.

[Agammamon]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
The new foam, deemed "enviro-friendly", apparently was not friendly to the space shuttle mission. On lift-off, large sections of the politically correct "enviro-foam" detached from the main rocket and slammed into the shuttle body.

I guess in this case environmentalism (leftism) run amok kills.

JK
The main rockets on the shuttle are on the shuttle. The big orange thing the shuttle is connected to is the external fuel tank, no thrusters on it. Anyway, I thought the fuel tank used in the Columbia's last launch was one of the few remaining old tanks, not the new L/W ones. Hmm, I wonder when the insulation is applied during the tanks construction.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by sundog


Hang on a sec, there. ;)

You're already accusing NASA of a coverup. The shuttle would have had to land anyway; they didn't have the capacity to fix it out there. Even if they HAD known, they would have done exactly the same thing, and they've been quite public about saying so. There's just no contingency plan for something like this going wrong. You can't accuse them of a conspiracy to do something they've been quite up front about saying they'd have had to do anyway.

I'm not a shuttle expert and I daresay neither are you; I want to hear what the experts have to say about all of it, including of course that photo. To me the photo is just inconclusive. The crooked line runs across two different objects without changing much, it could be something completely innocent, even something like a hair on the lens. We just don't know yet.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I love Nasa. They are my heroes. They are going to get a mssion to Mars going to go check out the places I have seen there in other photos that show human created buildings and other structures. Make no mistake--I like Nasa.

But Nasa got thrown a leftist curve ball with this Columbia incident (leftist enviro-foam). Was one shuttle mission a year contaminating the planet? No way. Leftists contaminate the planet 1,000,000,000 x more than Nasa could ever dream of doing.

But since the shuttle was an SUV instead of a Geo, it had to be "enviromized" into a Geo which led to its destruction on reentry. I am not criticizing Nasa in any way, shape or form about this. Nasa's hands were tied because of leftist pressure (the leftist curve ball). I sympathise with Nasa. All great American institutions like Nasa are under attack by leftism in one form or another. Sometimes appeasing leftism kills just as it apparently did with the Columbia mission.

JK

[headscratcher4]

Not that it matters JK, but could you possibly mean the "Columbia" mission and not the Challenger mission?

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
Not that it matters JK, but could you possibly mean the "Columbia" mission and not the Challenger mission?

You are right--let me go fix it.

JK

Hold everything JK, your entire premise might be flawed.

Doing a little net research I find this:

NCFI was awarded a Mission Success Medal on
July 29, 1998 by Lockheed Martin Michoud Space
Systems for production and delivery of a light-
weight spray-applied foam insulation system that
Lockheed Martin applies on the surface of the new
super lightweight external fuel tank.

-- at the North Carolina Foam Industries website www.ncfi.com.

Now combine that with these paragraphs from CNN:


In Louisiana, investigators turned their attention to Lockheed Martin's Michoud Assembly Facility in New Orleans, Louisiana, where the shuttle's external fuel tank was built.

The tank was a version that NASA is phasing out in favor of lighter ones. NASA said there was never a safety concern with the older models.

Looks like agammamon is right and you're upset over nothing. It was one of the OLD tanks.

I cannot locate any assertions anywhere that the new lighter-weight fuel tank was more environmentally friendly, other than the article you cite. If you come across something that backs up that assertion I'd like to hear it.

Should I now start a thread titled "REFUSAL BY RIGHT-WING PLANNERS TO USE LEFTIST ENVIRO-FOAM KILLS 7 ASTRONAUTS"?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

:D

See? Leaping to conclusions means you have to evaluate your data too fast.

[Darth Vader]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
If that was true, they should have sent the astronauts to stay on the space station until a rescue shuttle could have gone up to retrieve them.

Hi JK,
since I'm a space pedant, I have to clear this out:
no, it was not possible for them to go to the ISS.
When a space shuttle has to go to a space station, they have to launch it at the right time. That is, when the orbital plane of the station crosses the launch site. Then when the shuttle is accelerating, they have to stay within this orbital plane.
Due to this, they have a launch window of only a few minutes. If they are launched to early or to late, they don't have enough fuel to correct the inclination's delta between the orbital planes.

Columbia was not launched to go to the space station. Its orbital inclination (39°) was not even the same as the ISS one (51.6°).
To reach the ISS, they'd have to change their orbital inclination. When you're orbiting at 7.6km's, it means a big change in velocity, which they could not afford. The shuttle has just the right amount of fuel to get into a given orbit, and that's it.

If the accident was due to the piece of foam hitting the left wing during launch, they were doomed right from this instant. No rescue was possible.

DV

Originally posted by Darth Vader


If the accident was due to the piece of foam hitting the left wing during launch, they were doomed right from this instant. No rescue was possible.

DV

Oh, c'mon. Say it.

"Luke, I am your father."

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Darth Vader

Hi JK,
since I'm a space pedant, I have to clear this out:
no, it was not possible for them to go to the ISS.
When a space shuttle has to go to a space station, they have to launch it at the right time. That is, when the orbital plane of the station crosses the launch site. Then when the shuttle is accelerating, they have to stay within this orbital plane.
Due to this, they have a launch window of only a few minutes. If they are launched to early or to late, they don't have enough fuel to correct the inclination's delta between the orbital planes.

Columbia was not launched to go to the space station. Its orbital inclination (39°) was not even the same as the ISS one (51.6°).
To reach the ISS, they'd have to change their orbital inclination. When you're orbiting at 7.6km's, it means a big change in velocity, which they could not afford. The shuttle has just the right amount of fuel to get into a given orbit, and that's it.

If the accident was due to the piece of foam hitting the left wing during launch, they were doomed right from this instant. No rescue was possible.

DV

Not only that, but Columbia is not capable of docking with the ISS in the first place! It is too old to have that capability.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Turn on MSNBC right now. They are having breaking news about an internal memo after the launch when the enviro-commie foam damaged the shuttle on liftoff. Supposedly the memo talks about how the flight was doomed. That is incredible. It proves everything I just said.

JK

there appear to be conflicting stories about if it was the old style fuel tank or the new one. perhaps it was the old style, budget mangling, rightest, use it till it breaks fuel tank that caused the problem.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Darth Vader

Hi JK,
since I'm a space pedant, I have to clear this out:
no, it was not possible for them to go to the ISS.
When a space shuttle has to go to a space station, they have to launch it at the right time. That is, when the orbital plane of the station crosses the launch site. Then when the shuttle is accelerating, they have to stay within this orbital plane.
Due to this, they have a launch window of only a few minutes. If they are launched to early or to late, they don't have enough fuel to correct the inclination's delta between the orbital planes.

Columbia was not launched to go to the space station. Its orbital inclination (39°) was not even the same as the ISS one (51.6°).
To reach the ISS, they'd have to change their orbital inclination. When you're orbiting at 7.6km's, it means a big change in velocity, which they could not afford. The shuttle has just the right amount of fuel to get into a given orbit, and that's it.

If the accident was due to the piece of foam hitting the left wing during launch, they were doomed right from this instant. No rescue was possible.

DV

given the danger and stresses of take-off, should there always be a standby rescue plan? Eg, taking off such that a rendevous with the ISS is possible, or a back up shuttle is available? this is not the first time damage during launch has occurred.

Originally posted by a_unique_person


given the danger and stresses of take-off, should there always be a standby rescue plan? Eg, taking off such that a rendevous with the ISS is possible, or a back up shuttle is available? this is not the first time damage during launch has occurred.

In an ideal world, yes. Engineers have to deal with the REAL world. In the REAL world, even putting in ejection seats for all seven passengers was impossible.

The whole process is just far more complicated than you imagine. It's just BARELY possible to get into space at all. Start adding extra fuel and airbags and suddenly the vehicle won't fly.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


I've been in discussions where NASA guys bragged about this. They considered it quite innovative. Where would you buy replacement 8086 chips? (http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2002may/gee20020514011664.htm)

Neither of your links works for me, by the way.
I'll try to fix that but in the mean time here's some more news:

NASA Dismissed Advisers Who Warned About Safety
By WILLIAM J. BROAD and CARL HULSE


When an expert NASA panel warned last year that safety troubles loomed for the fleet of shuttles if the agency's budget was not increased, NASA removed five of the panel's nine members and two of its consultants. Some of them now say the agency was trying to suppress their criticisms.

A sixth member, a retired three-star admiral, Bernard M. Kauderer, was so upset at the firings that he quit the group, NASA's Aerospace Safety Advisory Panel, a group of industry and academic experts charged with monitoring safety at the space agency.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/03/national/03NASA.html

Friggin leftist-safety bastards!

[subgenius]

From that commie newspaper NYT article above:

"The new NASA administrator, Sean O'Keefe, has been struggling since his appointment to control space station costs."

Damn right wing fascist bean counters!
(Boy doesn't labeling and calling names add weight to my arguments?)

[Goshawk]

Subgenius:

Neither of your links works.

[Goshawk]

Never mind, I see Aerocontrols beat me to it. That's what I get for posting before reading the entire thread. :D

Originally posted by Goshawk
Subgenius:

Neither of your links works.

Just another plain-as-day example of the Leftist Media Conspiracy, just like all those protest marches they show over and over on the news.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by sundog


Just another plain-as-day example of the Leftist Media Conspiracy, just like all those protest marches they show over and over on the news.

Lucas makes those at Industrial Light & Magic.

Every 27th protestor is a battle droid.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Goshawk
Subgenius:

Neither of your links works.
More of that right wing conspiracy to limit your access to facts.;)
I think you may have to register with NYT (free) to access the articles, the links work for me.
You may however in the meantime trust that I am not editing/altering quotes from the articles.

[aerocontrols]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5-2003Feb2.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...-564778,00.html

Both of these links are incomplete. Note the '...'

Neither of them works. Neither of them are the New York Times.

[subgenius]

More from the article cited above (hey register, its not a bad source for a commie rag):

"The eight departed panel members and consultants had long experience with the shuttles' systems and their troubles. In interviews yesterday, some said NASA had developed an institutional myopia about the panel's warnings, advice and observations, however pointed.

The panel's most recent report, which came out last March and included analyses by the six departed members, warned that work on long-term shuttle safety "had deteriorated." Tight budgets, it said, were forcing an emphasis on short-term planning and adding to a backlog of planned improvements. The report called for sweeping change.

"I have never been as worried for space shuttle safety as I am right now," Dr. Richard D. Blomberg, the panel's chairman, told Congress in April. "All of my instincts suggest that the current approach is planting the seeds for future danger.""

Seems to me to be putting the cart after the barn door has closed (I like to mix my metaphors, I'm no rocket surgeon) to blame the enviro-commie insulation, since safety oversight should have overridden this, had the priorities been where they shoud have been.
I guess the enviro-commies are so powerful they even control the Bush administration as do the Matriarchal Totalitarians. Might be a good reason to vote for someone different next time.
(Edited to replace "elect" with "vote for.")

[subgenius]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5-2003Feb2.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...-564778,00.html

Both of these links are incomplete. Note the '...'

Neither of them works. Neither of them are the New York Times.
Sorry, trying to remove my head from my ass right now:

Try this (or just go to the NYT and peruse):


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/03/national/03NASA.html

[subgenius]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5-2003Feb2.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...-564778,00.html

Both of these links are incomplete. Note the '...'

Neither of them works. Neither of them are the New York Times.
The one about ebay was from the timesonline site. The must have some magical thingy that screws up the link. :confused:
Here's their homepage:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/

(Good article on a recent Michael Jackson interview, but I've promised not to start any new threads for a while;) )

[gnome]

A couple of things I noticed in the article:

NASA investigators seven years ago noted that the damage followed changes in the methods of "foaming" the external tank.

This is not the same as saying that the damage was caused by the changes in foaming methods.

post hoc fallacy.

Because of NASA's goal to use environmentally friendly products, a new method of 'foaming' the external tank had been used for this mission and the STS-86 mission. It is suspected that large amounts of foam separated from the external tank and impacted the orbiter.

Again a crucial reasoning step is missed. It does not state in the report that the different method of foaming was responsible for the foam separation. It just states that A) There was a different method of foaming, and B) There was a foam separation.

I wonder if there's a way of getting the exact report spoken of.

[Goshawk]

No worries, Sub, I'm not paranoid enough to think you're deliberately editing sources. :D Actually I was assuming that what was happening was some kind of breakdown in your Copy and Paste procedures. That happens to me sometimes when I'm in a hurry, I C & P what I think was the URL and it comes out as just gibberish.

[Regnad Kcin]

"[E]nviro-commie foam."

I'm sorry, but such priceless works of art must be cherished.

(Oh, and Geo, as a separate GM brand, hasn't existed for years. Carry on.)

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by sundog
Should I now start a thread titled "REFUSAL BY RIGHT-WING PLANNERS TO USE LEFTIST ENVIRO-FOAM KILLS 7 ASTRONAUTS"?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

:D

See? Leaping to conclusions means you have to evaluate your data too fast.

lol, nice try but I am right. You will see soon enough. :D

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Darth Vader

Hi JK,
since I'm a space pedant, I have to clear this out:
no, it was not possible for them to go to the ISS.
When a space shuttle has to go to a space station, they have to launch it at the right time. That is, when the orbital plane of the station crosses the launch site. Then when the shuttle is accelerating, they have to stay within this orbital plane.
Due to this, they have a launch window of only a few minutes. If they are launched to early or to late, they don't have enough fuel to correct the inclination's delta between the orbital planes.

Columbia was not launched to go to the space station. Its orbital inclination (39°) was not even the same as the ISS one (51.6°).
To reach the ISS, they'd have to change their orbital inclination. When you're orbiting at 7.6km's, it means a big change in velocity, which they could not afford. The shuttle has just the right amount of fuel to get into a given orbit, and that's it.

If the accident was due to the piece of foam hitting the left wing during launch, they were doomed right from this instant. No rescue was possible.

DV

Darth ;)

Welcome. I am so pleased (so pleased that I am ready to throw a block-party) that you understand the politics of your country and you selected a name befitting of a true intellectual skeptic on this forum. Bravo.

I shall enjoy debating with you and welcome. :D

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by sundog


Just another plain-as-day example of the Leftist Media Conspiracy, just like all those protest marches they show over and over on the news.

Well those protest marches are commie marches planned by the commie Worker's Party aparatus in the United States. I hope the FBI is keeping an eye on those guys (and matriarchal communist feminists too).

JK

[Pyrrho]

(looks around for Grand Moff Tarkin)

I understand that the material on the fuel tank is applied as foam, but isn't it an error to call it "foam" in its final form? Most people think of foam as, well, something their cushions are stuffed with, or possibly styrofoam. The stuff on the fuel tank must be quite far removed from "foam".

[Iwentsouth]

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/2003/02_Febbraio/03/crepe.shtml

People claiming that is a picture of the Shuttle wing are full of bulls**t and idiots.

That is photo of the cargo bay door.

Here is the real story of the enviromental foam that contributed to the problems with the shuttle launch.

FOAM HAS PLAGUED NASA FOR 5 YEARS (http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/5100794.htm)

MIAMI - NASA engineers have known for at least five years that insulating foam could peel off the space shuttle's external fuel tanks and damage the vital heat-protecting tiles that the space agency says were the likely ``root cause'' of Saturday's shuttle disaster.

In his 1997 report, Katnik noted that the 1997 mission, STS-87, was the first to use a new method of ``foaming'' the tanks, one designed to address NASA's goal of using environmentally friendly products. The shift came as the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency was ordering many industries to phase out the use of Freon, an aerosol propellant linked to ozone depletion and global warming.

[Iwentsouth]

http://home.socal.rr.com/picsgifs/images/columbia2.jpg

Here is an undoctored photo of what people are claiming to be the shuttle wing that shows damage.

http://www.corriere.it/Media/Foto/2003/02_Febbraio/03/20030203--240x180.jpg

Photo of Columbias supposably damaged wing.

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


lol, nice try but I am right. You will see soon enough. :D

JK

I guess we will.

Let's make a little bet for fun, ya wanna? If it turns out that the NEW foaming method was used, I'll make my sig line read "Jedi Knight is the Master of the Universe" for a week.

If it turns out that you're wrong and this was the older foam, you will make your sig line read "Sundog is a friggin' genius" for a week.

What do you say? :D

Later: It seems certain now, from several different sources, that the tank used was one of the older type. I won't claim victory though until it is determined that the foam used was the old foam. It seems to be implied but they don't come right out and say it.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by sundog


I guess we will.

Let's make a little bet for fun, ya wanna? If it turns out that the NEW foaming method was used, I'll make my sig line read "Jedi Knight is the Master of the Universe" for a week.

If it turns out that you're wrong and this was the older foam, you will make your sig line read "Sundog is a friggin' genius" for a week.

What do you say? :D

Later: It seems certain now, from several different sources, that the tank used was one of the older type. I won't claim victory though until it is determined that the foam used was the old foam. It seems to be implied but they don't come right out and say it.

Deal. This mission used the new foam.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Iwentsouth
http://home.socal.rr.com/picsgifs/images/columbia2.jpg

Here is an undoctored photo of what people are claiming to be the shuttle wing that shows damage.

http://www.corriere.it/Media/Foto/2003/02_Febbraio/03/20030203--240x180.jpg

Photo of Columbias supposably damaged wing.

There is just one problem---that photo was data feed shot by the Israeli astronaut as live feed for an Israeli national audience.

How do you explain that?

Is it plausible that Nasa "didn't notice" the seven inch rupture in the shuttle body? I say that not to argue what part of the shuttle it is from, but that it was from this flight, right? I mean, if it wasn't from this flight, then what vehicle was the Israeli astronaut inside shooting the film?

JK

[Goshawk]

It's not officially up on Snopes yet, but the consensus of the ULMB is that the photo is probably fake.

http://www.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=60;t=000240

[VernorsRush]

I can't identify what part of the shuttle that is right off hand, but it's certainly NOT the leading edge of a wing. There's no protrusions on the leading edges of the wings (bad for airflow). Also, the wings cannot be seen from inside the shuttle when the cargo bay doors are open.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Hi Sundog, I am glad that you saw what I was saying, while most of the others did not (like usual).

It has to be put into perspective so others can understand what I am saying. For them I will break it down a little further so that hopefully it becomes clearer.

Now, we all hear the radical leftist environmentalists screaming and whining puppy-dog tears about SUV's. You get movie stars whining about SUV's, and yet if movie stars were soooo concerned about the environment they wouldn't burn 300,000 pounds of jet fuel in their private leer jets flying around to places to chew up resources everywhere. Movie stars also have to be tasked to explain why their hatred for SUV's has any purpose in reality when they leave 40 garbage cans full of garbage outside their houses for the trash man to pick up, while other people leave maybe 1/2 a bag for the garbage man.

So is the 1/2 a bag guy driving an SUV really doing more damage to the environment than the one movie star guy leaving 100 garbage bags a day and chewing up 300,000 pounds of jet fuel a week?

That is the hypocrisy that got the astronauts murdered, and yes they were murdered, because NASA bent to the pressure of radical environmental groups that had no business in the astronaut business.

Since we know that radical commie environmentalists want to completely get rid of SUV's and make everyone in the world (except them) drive Geo Prisms, it was only a matter of time before the radical enviro commies went after the ultimate SUV (space shuttle Columbia).

Since they forced the SUV (Columbia) to be turned into a Geo Prism (unsafe commie enviro agenda putting lives at risk), naturally deaths would result. When you are on the highway, would you rather be in an SUV or a Geo?

The answer is obvious. Too bad our astronauts were forced to drive the Geo instead of the SUV. They would still be alive.

JK

LOL!!!! Did you steal this satire from The Onion??? (You're supposed to credit your sources)

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Turn on MSNBC right now. They are having breaking news about an internal memo after the launch when the enviro-commie foam damaged the shuttle on liftoff. Supposedly the memo talks about how the flight was doomed. That is incredible. It proves everything I just said.

JK

Did they say anything about the 100 bags of trash movie stars put out at the curb vs. the 1/2 a sack that the loser's of society (you) put out???

Moron.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Darth Vader

Hi JK,
since I'm a space pedant, I have to clear this out:
no, it was not possible for them to go to the ISS.
When a space shuttle has to go to a space station, they have to launch it at the right time. That is, when the orbital plane of the station crosses the launch site. Then when the shuttle is accelerating, they have to stay within this orbital plane.
Due to this, they have a launch window of only a few minutes. If they are launched to early or to late, they don't have enough fuel to correct the inclination's delta between the orbital planes.

Columbia was not launched to go to the space station. Its orbital inclination (39°) was not even the same as the ISS one (51.6°).
To reach the ISS, they'd have to change their orbital inclination. When you're orbiting at 7.6km's, it means a big change in velocity, which they could not afford. The shuttle has just the right amount of fuel to get into a given orbit, and that's it.

If the accident was due to the piece of foam hitting the left wing during launch, they were doomed right from this instant. No rescue was possible.

DV

JK will never understand a word of this.

[subgenius]

The republo-nazis killed the astronauts, not the enviro-commies.
Gosh labeling and name calling is more fun and easier than thinking.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


There is just one problem---that photo was data feed shot by the Israeli astronaut as live feed for an Israeli national audience.

How do you explain that?

Is it plausible that Nasa "didn't notice" the seven inch rupture in the shuttle body? I say that not to argue what part of the shuttle it is from, but that it was from this flight, right? I mean, if it wasn't from this flight, then what vehicle was the Israeli astronaut inside shooting the film?

JK

Hmm. Looks like some sort of suit, to me, not metal.

He could not have been shooting from inside the shuttle cargo bay -- no windows. He could only have been shooting video from inside the cabin, from which there would be no view of the wing. The "foam" did not strike near the nose.

What appears in the picture does not look like the shuttle body at all.

Very suspicious, unless NASA confirms this as a genuine photo.

Originally posted by pyrrho2000


Hmm. Looks like some sort of suit, to me, not metal.

He could not have been shooting from inside the shuttle cargo bay -- no windows. He could only have been shooting video from inside the cabin, from which there would be no view of the wing. The "foam" did not strike near the nose.

What appears in the picture does not look like the shuttle body at all.

Very suspicious, unless NASA confirms this as a genuine photo.

Yep. Is the assertion that something that shows so clearly on this video was somehow unnoticed by the astronauts? Wouldn't that be tunnel vision of a rather spectacular nature? Don't you think if the astronaut shooting the video had seen this and it was something to be alarmed about, he would have said something?

This will turn out to be unrelated, and will be a lesson to some of us to be more skeptical.

We need help settling this bet, all you internet detectives. We need firm evidence from a reliable source that the foam was either the old foam or the new foam. Who can find it first?

[Pyrrho]

It has already been established that pieces of the tank insulation have fallen off during launch time and time again and have caused minor damage time and time again.

Unless it can be shown that the "foam" used this time resulted in a cured product that was substantially harder and denser than the "old foam", the matter is irrelevant.

One has to wonder, though, if the crew was informed of the incident and of the results of NASA's post-launch review.

Even if the crew did know of the potential damage, there wasn't anything to be done once they were in orbit. There was only one way home.

Originally posted by pyrrho2000
It has already been established that pieces of the tank insulation have fallen off during launch time and time again and have caused minor damage time and time again.

Unless it can be shown that the "foam" used this time resulted in a cured product that was substantially harder and denser than the "old foam", the matter is irrelevant.

One has to wonder, though, if the crew was informed of the incident and of the results of NASA's post-launch review.

Even if the crew did know of the potential damage, there wasn't anything to be done once they were in orbit. There was only one way home.

It's not irrelevant at all! There's a bet going on here! :D

[Blue Monk]

I've been following this thread and I think some of you are missing the point.

Regardless of whether it was the new foam or the old foam the point of the original article was that the foam was selected due to environmental reasons. I read the article and although they cite references for every aspect they fail to mention the source of this key piece of information.

My own internet searches have failed to find anything to support this claim and unless I missed it all this thread proves to me is that Jedi is quite gullible and will believe anything on face value if it fits his perversely skewed view of the world.

I'm sure if I'm mistaken on this you are already lining up to hand me my head. :)

Please, no shoving! You will all get your turn.

Originally posted by Blue Monk
I've been following this thread and I think some of you are missing the point.

I'm sure if I'm mistaken on this you are already lining up to hand me my head. :)

Please, no shoving! You will all get your turn.

You're wrong, but I'm not going to beat you up about it; you've said nice things about me in the past so you're off the hook. :D (Unless I have you confused with someone, in which case you got lucky.)

JK is actually right. The new method of applying the foam uses no Freon, and was adopted as part of the EPA's directive to use less environmentally-damaging products. My source for this is yesterday's article at CNN about questions concerning the tanks.

[Starshark]

Originally posted by pyrrho2000


Hmm. Looks like some sort of suit, to me, not metal.

He could not have been shooting from inside the shuttle cargo bay -- no windows. He could only have been shooting video from inside the cabin, from which there would be no view of the wing. The "foam" did not strike near the nose.

What appears in the picture does not look like the shuttle body at all.

Very suspicious, unless NASA confirms this as a genuine photo.

Wow! When I saw all the comments saying, "This is supposed to be the shuttle's wing", I kept seeing a wing, but now that you mention it, it looks like a suit! Goes to show how easily perceptions can be swayed with just a little subjective interpretation.

Someone say it's a picture of a dog with a stick. I wanna see if I can see it, then.

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by sundog


You're wrong, but I'm not going to beat you up about it; you've said nice things about me in the past so you're off the hook. :D (Unless I have you confused with someone, in which case you got lucky.)

JK is actually right. The new method of applying the foam uses no Freon, and was adopted as part of the EPA's directive to use less environmentally-damaging products. My source for this is yesterday's article at CNN about questions concerning the tanks.

I said something nice? You must have me confused with someone far more sensitive. :)

Thanks for clearing that up though. That was the angle I was most interested in.

And if your listening Jedi I apologize. I did make an effort to find the information but I guess I didn't look hard enough.

But now, knowing this, I would tend to feel that regardless of whether or not either foam was in anyway responsible, the idea of altering the method based on environmental concerns would seem to me to be potentially a case of misguided and misplaced political pressure.

I am very much for pro-environmental issues but one must look at this equation realistically.

On one side there is great deal at stake. Even if one were so callous as to disregard the potential loss of human life, the astronomical cost of the shuttle and equipment, not to mention such intangible considerations as world prestige and credibility, would seem to me to preclude most, if not all, concerns when faced with the potential loss of the shuttle and crew.

I am not sure exactly how this process releases freon into the atmosphere but I have a hard time believing it could possibly be in sufficient quantities to take even a narrow calculated risk. This is after all a highly specialized application. We're not talking about something that is mass produced and used by millions on a daily basis.

So while I reserve the right to change my mind once again (they don't call me the waffle king for nothing) unless I learn the environmental impact would truly be enormous and that the risk of the new foam compared to the old approaches very close to statistical zero I am not as inclined to dismiss the possibility that this is indeed an incident of misplaced priorities.

If I were to learn that the new foam was responsible for the accident but that it's use prevented the release of freon into the atmosphere of, oh say, 2% of what is released in Juarez, Mexico in a day then I would feel quite comfortable in questioning the wisdom of such a decision.

OK, who's turn is it to hand me my head this time? :)

Originally posted by Blue Monk


I said something nice? You must have me confused with someone far more sensitive. :)

Well, as a lifelong keyboard player myself, and one that used to call Sixth Street home ;) , I'll let you off the hook anyway.

Remember the Club Foot, or were you in Austin then?

I swear someone said something nice about me once. I thought it was you, oh well. :D

Oh, and hold on a second there before jumping on JK's bandwagon. It's not been proved yet that the new foaming technique was in use on this tank; in fact, it's doubtful, since this was one of the old-style tanks. It also seems to be the case that both the old AND new techniques had problems with foam coming loose.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by sundog


Well, as a lifelong keyboard player myself, and one that used to call Sixth Street home ;) , I'll let you off the hook anyway.

Remember the Club Foot, or were you in Austin then?

I swear someone said something nice about me once. I thought it was you, oh well. :D

Oh, and hold on a second there before jumping on JK's bandwagon. It's not been proved yet that the new foaming technique was in use on this tank; in fact, it's doubtful, since this was one of the old-style tanks. It also seems to be the case that both the old AND new techniques had problems with foam coming loose.


I win! Do you want me to post the new tag line you have to use for a week? :D

You don't have to if you don't want to. I say that because sometimes I throw information out there that may appear strange to people and yet is 100% accurate, while other times I throw information out there that may have a crack in it just to get more information from others. It is hard to get people to tell you what is on their minds about an issue, but if you word it the right way they are more than happy to help lol.

It's all about the information--the only thing I am interested in. If I use bad information, please and by all means everyone, pick it apart. But also don't be too hasty to dismiss! :D

JK

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


I win! Do you want me to post the new tag line you have to use for a week? :D

JK

Ya lost me. Has it been determined whether the old or new foam was used on this tank, and where's a link to the info?

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Blue Monk
And if your listening Jedi I apologize. I did make an effort to find the information but I guess I didn't look hard enough.

That is very nice of you. I have a lot of information on these matters pouring in all the time so I will add what I can. I have so much information about the world my head is going to explode. There is a lot going on now.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by sundog


Ya lost me. Has it been determined whether the old or new foam was used on this tank, and where's a link to the info?

The information came from the report that I linked the article about in the first post. They began using the new enviro-foam with the STS-86 mission.

JK

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by sundog


Well, as a lifelong keyboard player myself, and one that used to call Sixth Street home ;) , I'll let you off the hook anyway.

Remember the Club Foot, or were you in Austin then?

I swear someone said something nice about me once. I thought it was you, oh well. :D

Oh, and hold on a second there before jumping on JK's bandwagon. It's not been proved yet that the new foaming technique was in use on this tank; in fact, it's doubtful, since this was one of the old-style tanks. It also seems to be the case that both the old AND new techniques had problems with foam coming loose.


Ah cool a keyboard player. I knew you had class.

Oh yeah I remember Club Foot! I've been in Austin since '75. That was a great club. Real cutting edge stuff in a town that was getting a little predictable music-wise.

If you were around 6th street back then you probably at one time or another saw my feet sticking out from under a table. You probably wouldn't recognize it now. Much busier and geared a lot more toward the yuppie and college kid element. I liked it much more before they refurbished everything. It was a lot more fun when it was a bunch of dirty ol' blues clubs, down and out rock 'n' haunts and old man shotgun bars, hehe.

And I'm not on JK's bandwagon yet. It's just that now that I know it was environmental concerns that motivated the change I'm willing to look into it further. Let's just say I'm looking at the bandwagon's schedule:)

Oh yeah, and the tuba has got to go.

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


That is very nice of you. I have a lot of information on these matters pouring in all the time so I will add what I can. I have so much information about the world my head is going to explode. There is a lot going on now.

JK

No problem. I'm more interested in the truth than being right which comes in handy seeing as I'm wrong so much of the time, hehe.

[subgenius]

It's all about the information--the only thing I am interested in.--JK

Hahahahahahahahaha
-----------------------------------------
NASA Backs Away From Foam Damage Theory

February 5, 2003 08:50 PM EST


SPACE CENTER, Houston - After days of analysis, NASA backed away Wednesday from the theory that a piece of foam that struck Columbia during liftoff was the root cause of the space shuttle's disintegration over Texas.

Shuttle program manager Ron Dittemore said investigators now are focusing more closely on the desperate effort of Columbia's automatic control system to hold the speed of the spacecraft stable despite an increasing level of wind resistance, or drag, on the left wing.

Dittemore said that after a careful study of the damage possible from the fall of a chunk of foam insulation that was believed to be 20 inches and 2 1/2 pounds, investigators are "looking somewhere else."

"Right now, it just does not make sense to us that a piece of debris would be the root cause for the loss of Columbia and its crew," he said. "There's got to be another reason."

http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=6&aid=205054055_5302_lead_story

[subgenius]

" I have so much information about the world my head is going to explode. "

-------------------------

Stand back, its about to blow....
5, 4, 3, 2, 1................:eek:
Oh the burdens of being the smartest guy on earth.:rolleyes:

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by subgenius
" I have so much information about the world my head is going to explode. "

-------------------------

Stand back, its about to blow....
5, 4, 3, 2, 1................:eek:
Oh the burdens of being the smartest guy on earth.:rolleyes:

Hehe, maybe he could store some in his ego.

There seems to be plenty of room there.

And I believe him. There probably isn't much room in his head.

[subgenius]

"Meteorite 'may have hit shuttle'

Nasa says a small meteorite or piece of man-made space junk may have struck the Columbia shuttle causing it to crash.

Even a tiny scrap of debris grazing the shuttle could have damaged thermal tiles just enough to start a chain reaction.

The comments by Milt Heflin, the space agency's flight director, cast doubt on the lead theory that a piece of foam insulation damaged the craft during blast off.

"Did we take some hit? That's a possibility. Something was breached," he has told the Los Angeles Times"
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_747632.html

Them damn meteorite-ignorin' commies......

[subgenius]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Launch debris may have played a role in the destruction of the space shuttle Columbia, but most likely it is not the only explanation, a top NASA spaceflight official said Wednesday.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/02/05/sprj.colu.shuttle.wrap/index.html

[Starshark]

I think we all know that the commies put all that space debris up there to undermine to US space program.

Just a quick question for anyone who knows... is there anything evil that the commies aren'yt responsible for?

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


The information came from the report that I linked the article about in the first post. They began using the new enviro-foam with the STS-86 mission.

JK

You're going to think I'm waffling, but my understanding is that the new tanks started at the same time. This has been shown to be one of the OLD tanks, pre-STS-86. Now all we need to know is: Is the foam put on when the tank is made, or closer to launch time?

The answer will be clear soon I'm sure.

Anyway, it looks like NASA is not convinced the foam did the damage anyway. We'll have to stay tuned.

Originally posted by Blue Monk


Oh yeah I remember Club Foot! I've been in Austin since '75. That was a great club. Real cutting edge stuff in a town that was getting a little predictable music-wise.

If

If you saw a VERY tall guy with VERY long blonde hair and a VERY beautiful blonde by his side there a lot, like twice a week, that was me and my lady. And I sat in once or twice with the Austin All-Stars at Steamboat. Ah, memories.

Now back to the CommieFoam discussion.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by sundog
Now back to the CommieFoam discussion.

hehe

JK

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Whodini
----
was saying that the actual age was not as important as the number of missions and the the shuttles were designed for 100 flights but that they may have to rethink that.
----


Of course the age is important, because it says if any parts are old or not.

Not really,

An airframe gets constantly rebuilt during it's lifetime. Any aircraft has a couple of signifigant numbers you need to know when you consider buying one. Age is a factor, but since there are many thousands of over 40 and 50 year old aircraft flying about it's obviously not an overriding factor.

(HHH = hours)

HHH SMOH (since major engine overhaul)
HHH TTAF (total time on airframe)
HHH TTP (total time on prop)

If you've ever been down to the islands...bahama, VI or PR you'd have noticed all the old DC3, and Conny's running cargo. All are more than 50 years old. How 'bout the B-52's?? Those are all deep into their 40's...and still lethal in combat.

The age of the orbiter is a lesser consideration than the condition of the orbiter. I have doubts that anything much besides the basic airframe crossmembers have accompanied Columbia on all her flights into space.

-zilla
(private pilot and all-around aviation buff)

[Jedi Knight]

US Airforce tracking cameras (http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/02/07/sprj.colu.wrap/index.html) have verified that the shuttle had a serious crack on its left wing and caused the disaster.

Conveniently, Nasa is now saying that their "lift off cameras" on the shuttle were mystically "out of focus", so there is not a clear shot in detail of the enviro-foam causing the wing damage, with the exception of the blurry photo that shows a house-sized wad slamming into the wing.

Any more proof needed?

JK

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
US Airforce tracking cameras (http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/02/07/sprj.colu.wrap/index.html) have verified that the shuttle had a serious crack on its left wing and caused the disaster.

Conveniently, Nasa is now saying that their "lift off cameras" on the shuttle were mystically "out of focus", so there is not a clear shot in detail of the enviro-foam causing the wing damage, with the exception of the blurry photo that shows a house-sized wad slamming into the wing.

Any more proof needed?

JK

I think it raises more questions than it answers. The engineers are having a hard time believing the foam hit hard enough to loosen tiles - you seem to think it hit hard enough to actually crack the wing. That would be one dense piece of foam!

The piece of foam was more "towel-sized" than "house-sized", according to every reference I've seen.

Do you or don't you have faith in NASA's ability to investigate this? You are again accusing them of not being truthful.

And of course, this does not address the question of which foam was used.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by sundog


I think it raises more questions than it answers. The engineers are having a hard time believing the foam hit hard enough to loosen tiles - you seem to think it hit hard enough to actually crack the wing. That would be one dense piece of foam!

The piece of foam was more "towel-sized" than "house-sized", according to every reference I've seen.

Do you or don't you have faith in NASA's ability to investigate this? You are again accusing them of not being truthful.

And of course, this does not address the question of which foam was used.

One of the astronauts e-mailed his brother (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30900) during the mission that they were worried about the left wing.

Just more and more evidence piling on supporting the enviro-foam theory.

JK

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


One of the astronauts e-mailed his brother (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30900) during the mission that they were worried about the left wing.

Just more and more evidence piling on supporting the enviro-foam theory.

JK
You mean commie foam.
Losing precious bodily fluids?

[NightG1]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


One of the astronauts...

More hearsay "evidence" from WorldNetDaily(tm) who is desperately trying to keep its enviro-Nasi conspiracy afloat. The article does not have any quotes from the offending emails...why is that?

----
Any aircraft has a couple of signifigant numbers you need to know when you consider buying one. Age is a factor, but since there are many thousands of over 40 and 50 year old aircraft flying about it's obviously not an overriding factor.
----


Yes, but I think a shuttle's experiences are quite different from those of an aircraft.

They experience higher speeds, temperatures, and stresses.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by sundog


I think it raises more questions than it answers. The engineers are having a hard time believing the foam hit hard enough to loosen tiles - you seem to think it hit hard enough to actually crack the wing. That would be one dense piece of foam!



There seems to be precedent (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77832,00.html) for such foam damage.



The first mission with PC-foam resulted in 11 times more damaged thermal tiles on Columbia than the previous mission with the Freon-based foam.

A Dec. 23, 1997, diary entry on the NASA Web site reported: “308 hits were counted during the inspection, 132 were greater than 1-inch. Some of the hits measured 15 inches long, with depths measuring up to 1.5 inches. Considering that the depth of a tile is 2 inches, a 75 percent penetration depth had been reached.”

More than 100 tiles were damaged beyond repair, well over the normal count of 40. Flaking PC-foam was the chief suspect.

In 2001, the Environmental Protection Agency exempted NASA from the CFC phase-out. Even assuming for the sake of argument that widespread use of CFCs might significantly damage the ozone layer, the relatively small amount used by NASA would have no measurable impact. The bulk of CFC use, after all, was in consumer products such as air conditioners, refrigerators and aerosol cans.

But contrary to the exercise of common sense, NASA didn’t return to the safer Freon-based foam. Instead, NASA knowingly continued to risk tile damage -- and disaster -- with reformulated PC-foam.

If this is true, it seems quite reasonble to conclude that however dense the foam is, it's sufficiently dense to risk damaging the tiles. (As was, it appears, the original foam)

MattJ

[Vorticity]

Incidentally, regarding the purported pic of cracks on the Columbia's wing, Snopes has caught up:
http://www.snopes.com/photos/shuttle.asp

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by NightG1


More hearsay "evidence" from WorldNetDaily(tm) who is desperately trying to keep its enviro-Nasi conspiracy afloat. The article does not have any quotes from the offending emails...why is that?

WorldNetDaily is just reporting the factual news. Try not to blame them. They are the better than CNN/MSNBC combined.

The astronaut's brother said he got an e-mail from the shuttle--maybe Nasa doesn't want that information released. But the astronaut who wrote his brother was worried enough to e-mail him and tell him that there was wing damage and they may not be coming home.

So, it seems the enviro-commie foam was to blame after all. If there wasn't any leftism involved in the shuttle flight, the Columbia would have landed safely in Florida instead of disintegrating into a 3,000 degree fireball in space on reentry.

JK

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


WorldNetDaily is just reporting the factual news. Try not to blame them. They are the better than CNN/MSNBC combined.

The astronaut's brother said he got an e-mail from the shuttle--maybe Nasa doesn't want that information released. But the astronaut who wrote his brother was worried enough to e-mail him and tell him that there was wing damage and they may not be coming home.

So, it seems the enviro-commie foam was to blame after all. If there wasn't any leftism involved in the shuttle flight, the Columbia would have landed safely in Florida instead of disintegrating into a 3,000 degree fireball in space on reentry.

JK


Well,

I'm not going to mention any names....so this will sound alot like an urban legend.

After the Amaz!ng Meeting I had a job interview at Cape Canaveral AFS. The job is in communications...these guys handle all commo on the Eastern Missile Range and were working the Shuttle during much of it's mission.

They told me that the crew knew they were in for a rough ride. They suspected they may not make it and had made phone calls to loved ones etc...prior to re-entry. They said the decision had been taken to re-enter because they had no other choice. If they had stayed up they had no way to be rescued. It would have been death...slow but sure. Their only choice was to re-enter. They had no way of knowing the extent of damage. With no robot arm on Columbia, and no suits w/EVA jets....and no handholds on the underside of Colombia...they couldn't even be sure the damage was indeed critical.

But apparently they knew what was very likely about to happen to them. I don't know if these guys were kidding me. I doubt it. They are professionals (will be my bosses after the hiring freeze lifts)...so I keep waiting for it to come out in the news. I think this e-mail exchange you guys are talking about is the first of several revelations that will slowly come out as the investigation proceeds and more stuff becomes public.

But...that's the word I got....and from a knowledgable source.

-zilla

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by rikzilla



Well,

I'm not going to mention any names....so this will sound alot like an urban legend.

After the Amaz!ng Meeting I had a job interview at Cape Canaveral AFS. The job is in communications...these guys handle all commo on the Eastern Missile Range and were working the Shuttle during much of it's mission.

They told me that the crew knew they were in for a rough ride. They suspected they may not make it and had made phone calls to loved ones etc...prior to re-entry. They said the decision had been taken to re-enter because they had no other choice. If they had stayed up they had no way to be rescued. It would have been death...slow but sure. Their only choice was to re-enter. They had no way of knowing the extent of damage. With no robot arm on Columbia, and no suits w/EVA jets....and no handholds on the underside of Colombia...they couldn't even be sure the damage was indeed critical.

But apparently they knew what was very likely about to happen to them. I don't know if these guys were kidding me. I doubt it. They are professionals (will be my bosses after the hiring freeze lifts)...so I keep waiting for it to come out in the news. I think this e-mail exchange you guys are talking about is the first of several revelations that will slowly come out as the investigation proceeds and more stuff becomes public.

But...that's the word I got....and from a knowledgable source.

-zilla

I hope that you get the job that you are after Rik. I want to be in charge of another Truth Commission inside the United States, but I do not know if the job opening will ever appear again.

The only reason I started this thread is because I was convinced it was the enviro-commie foam that caused it. I saw the video clips of the foam that struck the wing with such force it almost detached the shuttle from the main rockets on lift-off. This isn't styro-foam they were using, but a very dense foam sealed externally with a plastic coating of some type, I believe. When it detached from the rocket it came off with the force of a large hunk of sheet rock and sliced right through the underbelly wing protection of the sand tiles.

My opinion of Nasa's reluctance to idenitfy the commie-foam as the culprit is probably due to political correctness. The leftists certainly don't want the shuttle disaster to be the first confirmed envirocide policy in American history. There are probably many others in the name of "environmentalism" that we don't ever hear about, but the shuttle disaster will never go away.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

The United States AirForce took pictures (http://www.enterprisemission.com/airforcecam.html) of the shuttle wing as it began to disintegrate.

There is the proof. Hey Sundog, ready to post the quote? lol.

JK

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


WorldNetDaily is just reporting the factual news. Try not to blame them. They are the better than CNN/MSNBC combined.

The astronaut's brother said he got an e-mail from the shuttle--maybe Nasa doesn't want that information released. But the astronaut who wrote his brother was worried enough to e-mail him and tell him that there was wing damage and they may not be coming home.

So, it seems the enviro-commie foam was to blame after all. If there wasn't any leftism involved in the shuttle flight, the Columbia would have landed safely in Florida instead of disintegrating into a 3,000 degree fireball in space on reentry.

JK

Then certainly the brother would have made it public by now. Where can I see it???

/Start sound of crickets chirping......

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
The United States AirForce took pictures (http://www.enterprisemission.com/airforcecam.html) of the shuttle wing as it began to disintegrate.

There is the proof. Hey Sundog, ready to post the quote? lol.

JK

looks like they took the picture with the same camera they used to take pictures of the loch ness monster to me.

----
They told me that the crew knew they were in for a rough ride. They suspected they may not make it and had made phone calls to loved ones etc...prior to re-entry. They said the decision had been taken to re-enter because they had no other choice.
----


Didn't they have an escape module, or no?

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Whodini
----
They told me that the crew knew they were in for a rough ride. They suspected they may not make it and had made phone calls to loved ones etc...prior to re-entry. They said the decision had been taken to re-enter because they had no other choice.
----


Didn't they have an escape module, or no?

No.

The only hope they ever had from the very beginning was the intergrity of the heat shield.

Space exploraton is dangerous stuff. When everything works it looks easy...when something critical is compromised you die. There isn't much middle ground involved. Aviation is very unforgiving of mistakes and mechanical failures....space flight is a thousand times more so.

-zilla

[Jedi Knight]

Hey Sundog, ready to post my quote I wrote up? lol.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Shuttle experts wonder if Nasa erred (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/03/national/03WRON.html) by announcing the enviro foam had no impact on the shuttle disaster.

"It's hard, like an old-fashioned brick," said Dr. Seymour C. Himmel, a shuttle expert who served for two decades on NASA's aerospace safety advisory panel. "Chunks of it have come off before."

JK

P.S. Hey Sun, ready for that quote yet lol.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Still waiting for a copy of the email as reported on worldnetdaily.

crickets still chirping....

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
Still waiting for a copy of the email as reported on worldnetdaily.

crickets still chirping....

Contact WorldnetDaily for it. I am sure that if they have it they would be more than pleased to give it you. The astronaut's brother who received the e-mail from the shuttle while it was in space is the one who verified the story. So what is the problem? Are you really that nosy that you would demand to read a private e-mail from one brother to another just before one of them was roasted alive in a 3000 degree fireball in the earth's atmosphere? That is pretty evil of you.

JK

[The Central Scrutinizer]

......crickets still chirping....

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Are you really that nosy that you would demand to read a private e-mail from one brother to another just before one of them was roasted alive in a 3000 degree fireball in the earth's atmosphere? That is pretty evil of you.

JK
Are you really that pathetic that you would use the death of seven people as just another chance to inject the word "commi" into yet another trolling thread? Jedi, your craving for attention knows no bounds. You have no regard for anything other than gratification of your own ego. You believe you are going to be judged by a god after you die. How will you explain all this? will your god understand your pathetic use of the suffering of others to troll a discussion board? Your lies? your racism? your complete ignorance of basic morality?

Basically son....you are a peace of garbage. The price of free speech on this forum is giving scum like yourself the chance to rant blind pointless hate.

[Starshark]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


I hope that you get the job that you are after Rik. I want to be in charge of another Truth Commission inside the United States, but I do not know if the job opening will ever appear again.

The only reason I started this thread is because I was convinced it was the enviro-commie foam that caused it. I saw the video clips of the foam that struck the wing with such force it almost detached the shuttle from the main rockets on lift-off. This isn't styro-foam they were using, but a very dense foam sealed externally with a plastic coating of some type, I believe. When it detached from the rocket it came off with the force of a large hunk of sheet rock and sliced right through the underbelly wing protection of the sand tiles.

My opinion of Nasa's reluctance to idenitfy the commie-foam as the culprit is probably due to political correctness. The leftists certainly don't want the shuttle disaster to be the first confirmed envirocide policy in American history. There are probably many others in the name of "environmentalism" that we don't ever hear about, but the shuttle disaster will never go away.

JK
(emphasis mine)

The phrase you're after is, "Ministry of Truth". And 1984 was actually a work of fiction.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Starshark

(emphasis mine)

The phrase you're after is, "Ministry of Truth". And 1984 was actually a work of fiction.

If you knew anything about American history you would know that there was once a Truth Commission. Take some US history classes in Australia. They will help you out, young man.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by The Fool

Are you really that pathetic that you would use the death of seven people as just another chance to inject the word "commi" into yet another trolling thread? Jedi, your craving for attention knows no bounds. You have no regard for anything other than gratification of your own ego. You believe you are going to be judged by a god after you die. How will you explain all this? will your god understand your pathetic use of the suffering of others to troll a discussion board? Your lies? your racism? your complete ignorance of basic morality?

Basically son....you are a peace of garbage. The price of free speech on this forum is giving scum like yourself the chance to rant blind pointless hate.

The radical leftist environmentalism movement is a communist movement. I am merely stating known facts. If facts trouble you, perhaps you should move on to threads that don't care about facts.

JK

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


If you knew anything about American history you would know that there was once a Truth Commission. Take some US history classes in Australia. They will help you out, young man.

JK
maybe you should let your dad read your posts so he can smack your arse for being an idiot. He might even block this site with a net nanny to stop you from misbehaving.How can you comment on US history. Not a single claim you have ever made on this forum has been close to the truth.

Go back to building plastic tanks and playing with your genitals.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


The radical leftist environmentalism movement is a communist movement. I am merely stating known facts. If facts trouble you, perhaps you should move on to threads that don't care about facts.

JK
Facts? I laugh loudly when I see a compulsive liar like you talk about facts. This server has had to have another harddrive installed to cope with all the deliberate fabrications you present. Then when asked to support them you run like a coward.....

People are rapidly loosing patience with you and your garbage....but then, thats your only aim in life isn't it.

grow up.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by The Fool

Facts? I laugh loudly when I see a compulsive liar like you talk about facts. This server has had to have another harddrive installed to cope with all the deliberate fabrications you present. Then when asked to support them you run like a coward.....

People are rapidly loosing patience with you and your garbage....but then, thats your only aim in life isn't it.

grow up.

No one has ever asked me for any support for this server. Not one e-mail or private message. Are you trying to be psychic again?

JK

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


No one has ever asked me for any support for this server. Not one e-mail or private message. Are you trying to be psychic again?

JK
what are you going on about???? support for this server??? have you been sniffing your plastic tank model glue again?
I was refering to your cowardly avoidance of supporting any of your claimed facts when challanged...

go back to your toy soldiers.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by The Fool

what are you going on about???? support for this server??? have you been sniffing your plastic tank model glue again?

That is what you said. You said I haven't given this server any support. I beg to differ on that. When I first started posting here, the religion and the political thread sections were boring and rarely visited areas.

Since Jedi showed up, this server is probably one of the top servers on the entire internet for chatting. People love to come here now. You should throw a party for me for turning it all around.

JK

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


If you knew anything about American history you would know that there was once a Truth Commission. Take some US history classes in Australia. They will help you out, young man.

JK

Oh really???? When?


BTW.......crickets still chirping.....

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


That is what you said. You said I haven't given this server any support. I beg to differ on that. When I first started posting here, the religion and the political thread sections were boring and rarely visited areas.

Since Jedi showed up, this server is probably one of the top servers on the entire internet for chatting. People love to come here now. You should throw a party for me for turning it all around.

JK
I'm trying my best here....
I said

This server has had to have another harddrive installed to cope with all the deliberate fabrications you present. Then when asked to support them you run like a coward.....
why is it so difficult for you to understand that I am talking about your avoidance of supporting your fabrications? c'mon Jedi...a 10 year old could understand what i said.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


Oh really???? When?


BTW.......crickets still chirping.....

Central...
I think your request for support of this statement has caused this troll to do his usual vanishing act..... Its not easy to prevent him from shooting himself in the foot.

you've gotta laugh eh?

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Blue Monk


Ah cool a keyboard player. I knew you had class.

Oh yeah I remember Club Foot! I've been in Austin since '75. That was a great club. Real cutting edge stuff in a town that was getting a little predictable music-wise.

If you were around 6th street back then you probably at one time or another saw my feet sticking out from under a table. You probably wouldn't recognize it now. Much busier and geared a lot more toward the yuppie and college kid element. I liked it much more before they refurbished everything. It was a lot more fun when it was a bunch of dirty ol' blues clubs, down and out rock 'n' haunts and old man shotgun bars, hehe.

And I'm not on JK's bandwagon yet. It's just that now that I know it was environmental concerns that motivated the change I'm willing to look into it further. Let's just say I'm looking at the bandwagon's schedule:)

Oh yeah, and the tuba has got to go.

Uh oh.....Sundog's a liberal keyboard player from Austin Texas who's 6'6" and 250 pounds???? How old again??? Didn't you say early 40's???

Damn man, you sound like a near clone of my old buddy Adam. He's a big man too and plays bass with various bands in Lubbock. The last band he was in was called the Craven Moorehead band.

When they were on stage folks'd shout "Who's Craven??" ...and they'd say "Hell we all are!" :D :D

He also toured with Reba McIntire...and was lucky to not be on that plane that crashed. It's hard being a liberal in Texas...but Adam's about 275 pounds and well over 6'...so folks don't mess with him much.

Gee Sundog...does this mean I'm gonna have to start being nice to you??? :eek: :confused:

-zilla

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


Oh really???? When?


BTW.......crickets still chirping.....

The House Unamerican Activities Commission (HUAC, know as the "Truth Commission").

Do any of you know anything about American history? *crickets chirping*

JK

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


The House Unamerican Activities Commission (HUAC, know as the "Truth Commmission").

Do any of you know anything about American history? *crickets chirping*

JK

You win by default dude, I'm bailin'.

Thanks for consistently maintaining a calm and productive dialogue with me. :cool:

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by sundog


You win by default dude, I'm bailin'.

Thanks for consistently maintaining a calm and productive dialogue with me. :cool:

No way, Sun! Stick around. I want to win fairly. I just thought with the amount of evidence I linked that it was clear that the shuttle was destroyed by the enviro-commie foam (envirocide), but if you are not convinced then by all means we can wait even if it takes a year or two to get the rest of the evidence at a level that you think is appropriate to convince you.

JK

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


No way, Sun! Stick around. I want to win fairly. I just thought with the amount of evidence I linked that it was clear that the shuttle was destroyed by the enviro-commie foam (envirocide), but if you are not convinced then by all means we can wait even if it takes a year or two to get the rest of the evidence at a level that you think is appropriate to convince you.

JK

Thank you, I believe you mean it.

No, I mean I'm really bailing.

Do me one favor: keep an eye out for people who actually want to communicate. We're out there.

[Aardvark_DK]

JK, do you actually think that the HUAC was a good thing?

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by sundog


Thank you, I believe you mean it.

No, I mean I'm really bailing.

Do me one favor: keep an eye out for people who actually want to communicate. We're out there.

That is why I want you to stay.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK
JK, do you actually think that the HUAC was a good thing?

Of course. I want to be in charge of the new one.

JK

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Of course. I want to be in charge of the new one.

JK
Good trolling, introduce a new troll topic mid thread....certainly takes the heat off the previous lies doesn't it.......you are getting very predictable jedi....
ok, who besides yourself has ever called the mcCarthy witchhunts a "truth commission" can you give us some examples? If you can't then its probably about time to switch to a feminism troll topic...Its the only one you have not used in this thread yet.

[Nasarius]

Originally posted by The Fool
ok, who besides yourself has ever called the mcCarthy witchhunts a "truth commission" can you give us some examples?

Google turns up nothing of any relevance. The closest I found were mentions of a "Korea Truth Commission" on the same page as McCarthy or HUAC, which sounds quite the opposite of the sort of thing JK likes. Yet another product of his deranged mind, it would seem :)

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by The Fool

Good trolling, introduce a new troll topic mid thread....certainly takes the heat off the previous lies doesn't it.......you are getting very predictable jedi....
ok, who besides yourself has ever called the mcCarthy witchhunts a "truth commission" can you give us some examples? If you can't then its probably about time to switch to a feminism troll topic...Its the only one you have not used in this thread yet.

You are from Australia. It is natural for you to have no indepth understanding of US history. I understand that and am not going to critique you about it.

JK

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


You are from Australia. It is natural for you to have no indepth understanding of US history. I understand that and am not going to critique you about it.

JK

I understand that you don't want to proceed down this path. Go hide in another troll thread and hope people forget you were called on yet another fabrication.


Your cowardice is legendary.

Don't forget...Its Australia not Austria.... Just making sure you realise, a lot of ignorant people confuse the names. We are the big country on the bottom of the globe in your bedroom...not the little country in Europe.

I admit I was wrong about one thing...I thought you would try and inject a red herring (feminism or something) to avoid supporting your latest effort.... seems you are going to use the retreat instead.

spanking your behind is getting just a bit tooooooo easy....

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

You are from Australia. It is natural for you to have no indepth understanding of US history. I understand that and am not going to critique you about it.

JK
As someone who is perhaps more knowledgable of U.S. history than certain disreputable Australian persons ;) , I am just as aware as you are of the fact that you made up that bit about the HUAC being called a "Truth Commision" on the spot. Nice try, though!

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Of course [I believe that HUAC was a good thing]. I want to be in charge of the new one.
Yes, silly old me. Of course you would think that one of the most embarrassing chapters in US history is something to be proud of. Right. I apologise for thinking otherwise.

[Vorticity]

Bump!
Whoops! I guess I don't feel like letting this one die.
JK! How about some reference for your evasion that HUAC = "Truth Commision"?

[baseball taunt]
Jaaaaaaaaayyyyy Kaaaaaayy!
Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay Kaaaaaaaaaaay!!
Saweeeeng, baddah!
[/baseball taunt]

[Aardvark_DK]

Oh come on now, Vorticity - JK doesn't have to prove anything. One of the advantages of being insane is that you just sort of make up the facts as you go along.

Did you know that from 1995-2002 approximately 10 million Jews were executed in Europe? Add to that the 40 million capitalists that mysteriously disappeared during the same time and you have one of the most frightening cases of genocide (JK would say that these 50 million people were "genocided") since WW2. And we've managed to keep it a secret - not bad, eh?


edit: Perhaps I should add that JK has in fact not claimed any of this. Yet. If you want to see real examples of his lunacy look no further (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=333057#post333057). It is pretty scary.

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK
Oh come on now, Vorticity - JK doesn't have to prove anything. One of the advantages of being insane is that you just sort of make up the facts as you go along.
Clearly, but I got a little sick of it. You see, I like learning about history and it irks me when someone thinks they can just make up something historical on the spot to support whatever insane point they're making. So, I decided to pick something JK said that is the most clearly made up on the spot, and keep it alive until he addresses it. I'll post something about it in every JK thread I can get my hands on.
Maybe this will break his habit of starting new inflammatory threads to distract folks from noticing all his nonsense "facts" from previous threads (which are allowed to die). Or maybe not...

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity

Clearly, but I got a little sick of it. You see, I like learning about history and it irks me when someone thinks they can just make up something historical on the spot to support whatever insane point they're making. So, I decided to pick something JK said that is the most clearly made up on the spot, and keep it alive until he addresses it. I'll post something about it in every JK thread I can get my hands on.
Maybe this will break his habit of starting new inflammatory threads to distract folks from noticing all his nonsense "facts" from previous threads (which are allowed to die). Or maybe not...

In the 1950's the HUAC was nicknamed "The Truth Commission". I know what the problem is. The newbies who said they used Google don't know how to use a search engine and can't filter through the hundreds of thousands of other sites that have "Truth Commission" as a key word.

Go to a library and have a librarian teach you how to use a search engine, or better yet, just ask a librarian about the HUAC Truth Commission. I am sure that they could show you books on the subject.

JK

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
The newbies who said they used Google don't know how to use a search engine and can't filter through the hundreds of thousands of other sites that have "Truth Commission" as a key word.
Well, why don't you provide us with a link then?

(Incidentally, I'm not saying that HUAC has never been referred to as a "Truth Commission" - I don't know and I don't care. It was an embarrassment to the US and all the great things the US stands for; and only a nutcase like you, JK, would be proud of it.)

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

In the 1950's the HUAC was nicknamed "The Truth Commission". I know what the problem is. The newbies who said they used Google don't know how to use a search engine and can't filter through the hundreds of thousands of other sites that have "Truth Commission" as a key word.

Go to a library and have a librarian teach you how to use a search engine, or better yet, just ask a librarian about the HUAC Truth Commission. I am sure that they could show you books on the subject.
JK
Nice try at evasion, but I'm dead set on target with this.
I know how to use a search engine very well, thanks.
A google search for "Truth Commission" yields 19,100 results, not "hundreds of thousands".
But lets take it further: If the HUAC really were nicknamed "The Truth Commission", you'd expect there to be some mention of it online, right? After all, a google search for "HUAC" yields 11,700 hits! Surely somewhere in there, you'd expect to be at least one mention of this illustrious nickname.
So here's what a few google searches yields:

HUAC & "Truth Commission": 8 sites, all dealing with Guatemalan, Korean, and U.N. Truth Commissions. No dice.

"Truth Commission" & UnAmerican: 9 sites. None relevant.

"Truth Commission" & "Joseph McCarthy": 10 sites. None relevant.

And on and on...
But perhaps I'm doing something wrong! If its a matter of search engine ability, maybe you have me beat. So I'm sure you can find a site that states the HUAC was nicknamed the "Truth Commission". Please post it!

If no such site exists, where did you learn that HUAC = "Truth Commission"? From a book? What book? I mean, you state it so authoritatively! You must have gotten it from a very reliable source...

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity

Nice try at evasion, but I'm dead set on target with this.
I know how to use a search engine very well, thanks.
A google search for "Truth Commission" yields 19,100 results, not "hundreds of thousands".
But lets take it further: If the HUAC really were nicknamed "The Truth Commission", you'd expect there to be some mention of it online, right? After all, a google search for "HUAC" yields 11,700 hits! Surely somewhere in there, you'd expect to be at least one mention of this illustrious nickname.
So here's what a few google searches yields:

HUAC & "Truth Commission": 8 sites, all dealing with Guatemalan, Korean, and U.N. Truth Commissions. No dice.

"Truth Commission" & UnAmerican: 9 sites. None relevant.

"Truth Commission" & "Joseph McCarthy": 10 sites. None relevant.

And on and on...
But perhaps I'm doing something wrong! If its a matter of search engine ability, maybe you have me beat. So I'm sure you can find a site that states the HUAC was nicknamed the "Truth Commission". Please post it!

If no such site exists, where did you learn that HUAC = "Truth Commission"? From a book? What book? I mean, you state it so authoritatively! You must have gotten it from a very reliable source...

Call your librarian. If she has a clue she can give you plenty of books on the subject.

JK

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Call your librarian. If she has a clue she can give you plenty of books on the subject.

JK

Humor me, name two off the top of your head....In the last 4 months I read "A Conspiracy So Immence" by Oshinsky -- considered by academics to be an excellent overview of the McCarthy Hearings and HUAC, as well as "Whittaker Chambers" by Tanenhaus -- a very sympathetic biography that argues Chambers was right and told the truth about Hiss and that the liberal establishment didn't understand the real threat (so you might like it) -- neither book, though dealing extensively with HUAC called it the "truth commission". These are only two books however, I am sure that you could name me two that do....

[gnome]

Generally, "Go look it up" is not an adequate answer when asked for a source, is it?

If it's so trivial to find, why not just cite it right here JK?

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Call your librarian. If she has a clue she can give you plenty of books on the subject.
Chickensh*t!

[Vorticity]

Bump!
Whoops! Clumsy me!

JK:

Any references whatsoever? After all, you seemed so sure that HUAC = "Truth Commission". Why, you even berated our poor Australian colleague for his ignorance, so you must have something to show us, right?
Oh, and exhortations to "go look it up" don't cut it here. It's not gonna go away...

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity
Bump!
Whoops! Clumsy me!

JK:

Any references whatsoever? After all, you seemed so sure that HUAC = "Truth Commission". Why, you even berated our poor Australian colleague for his ignorance, so you must have something to show us, right?
Oh, and exhortations to "go look it up" don't cut it here. It's not gonna go away...

Remain ignorant of US history and keep bumping this thread. I love it when you do that.

JK

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Remain ignorant of US history and keep bumping this thread. I love it when you do that.

JK
OK, thanks, I love it, too!
As for ignorance:
You and I both know that you made up that "Truth Commission"=HUAC thing on the spot, and you know what? As someone who isn't completely ignorant of U.S. history, that pisses me off a bit. You can't just make up facts on the spot to support your deranged brain fetishes. In another thread you described someone as being "Orwellian". You know what's really Orwellian? Revising history to fit some random bullsh!t you just made up.
So: I will keep bumping this thread, thanks. I'm not gonna let it go away until you:

1. Admit you made it up.
2. Prove me wrong. After all, think what a lesson that'd teach me after all this sound and fury about it I've created. Quite a feather in your cap, no? So why not invest a little effort and give some references for the assertion that the HUAC was know as "The Truth Commission".

Oh, and by the way: I emailed a whole bunch of real historians who are professors of modern U.S. History at U.C. Berkeley (where I'm a grad student), asking about this. I've gotten 3 replies so far. Tommorrow, after I get a few more replies, I'll reveal their opinion of your assertion.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity

OK, thanks, I love it, too!
As for ignorance:
You and I both know that you made up that "Truth Commission"=HUAC thing on the spot, and you know what? As someone who isn't completely ignorant of U.S. history, that pisses me off a bit. You can't just make up facts on the spot to support your deranged brain fetishes. In another thread you described someone as being "Orwellian". You know what's really Orwellian? Revising history to fit some random bullsh!t you just made up.
So: I will keep bumping this thread, thanks. I'm not gonna let it go away until you:

1. Admit you made it up.
2. Prove me wrong. After all, think what a lesson that'd teach me after all this sound and fury about it I've created. Quite a feather in your cap, no? So why not invest a little effort and give some references for the assertion that the HUAC was know as "The Truth Commission".

Oh, and by the way: I emailed a whole bunch of real historians who are professors of modern U.S. History at U.C. Berkeley (where I'm a grad student), asking about this. I've gotten 3 replies so far. Tommorrow, after I get a few more replies, I'll reveal their opinion of your assertion.

That's great! You are a student at the Stalinist Berkeley?

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!

Oh, believe me, I just can't wait to hear what your leftist professors over in the proletariat of Berkeley have to say about it. :D

You know what, leftists are the ones who named the HUAC a "Truth Commission". I didn't invent it. It was nicknamed that in the 1950's by leftists who were opposed to it because it exposed communists in the United States and other subversive activity. It was called a "Truth Commission" because it sought to, you know, "get to the truth" regarding a person's affiliation with the communist party.

But look, I just can't wait to hear what your leftist college professors have to say about it. Please, as soon as you get your replies from them post them.

JK

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

That's great! You are a student at the Stalinist Berkeley?

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!

Oh, believe me, I just can't wait to hear what your leftist professors over in the proletariat of Berkeley have to say about it. :D

Lousy evasion. I emerge undeterred.
The fact remains: You made up a fact on the spot to fit some crazed notion. Everyone knows it. Its not going to go away until you:
1. Admit you made it up, or
2. Post some references and prove me wrong.

Incidentally, do you know what the word "proletariat" means? Your sentence above is gibberish.

You know what, leftists are the ones who named the HUAC a "Truth Commission". I didn't invent it. It was nicknamed that in the 1950's by leftists who were opposed to it because it exposed communists in the United States and other subversive activity. It was called a "Truth Commission" because it sought to, you know, "get to the truth" regarding a person's affiliation with the communist party.

Now that doesn't even make sense. Your hysteria is showing.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity

Lousy evasion. I emerge undeterred.
The fact remains: You made up a fact on the spot to fit some crazed notion. Everyone knows it. Its not going to go away until you:
1. Admit you made it up, or
2. Post some references and prove me wrong.

Incidentally, do you know what the word "proletariat" means? Your sentence above is gibberish.

Now that doesn't even make sense. Your hysteria is showing.

Hey vort, did your IQ drop in the last hour or so? I am right here. I haven't gone anywhere. Get your lefty prof pals to give you their version and post it here. I anxiously wait. Seriously, I am not going anywhere and am not evading you.

It isn't really your fault why you are carrying on about a simple observation that I made about US history involving the HUAC Truth Commission.

You see, when I was in school, it was not politically incorrect to discuss HUAC. I actually enjoyed and agreed completely with the intentions of HUAC. I still do to this day and think another HUAC would clear up some bad anti-Americanism that is rampant in our institutions.

But as the schools became more Stalinist, as they fell to the left with their nonsensical emotional desire to give themselves away to communism, HUAC became a very rare topic or one looked upon with total negativity because it was an institution designed to protect America, and anything that protected the idea of America became evil, especially at your university.

But anyway, like I said, I am not blaming you for not knowing what I was talking about so don't think that. I actually have a desire to keep talking to you now that I know you are part of such a leftist institution at Berkeley. You see, the reason I debate here at this forum is because of the sheer number of leftists that come here. It is my duty to instruct and teach them lol.

Remember, communism and many forms of leftism are simply a filing cabinet for tyranny.

JK

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


The House Unamerican Activities Commission (HUAC, know as the "Truth Commission").

Do any of you know anything about American history? *crickets chirping*

JK

......crickets still chirping....

[Vorticity]

Back on track, JK! You made the assertion:
Originally posted by Jedi Knight
The House Unamerican Activities Commission (HUAC, know as the "Truth Commission").

You provide the evidence! Show me one thing that indicates the HUAC was known as "The Truth Commission". But no, you can't. You made it up.

1. Admit you were wrong.
Or
2. Prove me wrong.

It won't go away. Railing about imaginary leftist conspiracies won't help.

*crickets chirping*

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity
Back on track, JK! You made the assertion:

You provide the evidence! Show me one thing that indicates the HUAC was known as "The Truth Commission". But no, you can't. You made it up.

1. Admit you were wrong.
Or
2. Prove me wrong.

It won't go away. Railing about imaginary leftist conspiracies won't help.

*crickets chirping*

Are you really that dense? Post what you professors tell you, then I will give you some sources. But man, I am sooo looking forward to hearing what they have to say.

JK

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by Vorticity
Back on track, JK! You made the assertion:

You provide the evidence! Show me one thing that indicates the HUAC was known as "The Truth Commission". But no, you can't. You made it up.

1. Admit you were wrong.
Or
2. Prove me wrong.

It won't go away. Railing about imaginary leftist conspiracies won't help.

*crickets chirping* Just scrolling through the thread here - was HUAC ever known as 'The Truth Commision' or was it some new info invented by the J? :confused:

Why is he waiting for some professors to say something? Isn't he able to back up his claim? :rolleyes:

[Aardvark_DK]

Let's see: For a long time JK spelled atheism "athiesm" and refused to correct the spelling - until he eventually did though without admitting that he'd ever been wrong. For a long time JK claimed that suns generate gravity but mass doesn't - until he eventually just ignored the whole thing, but still hasn't admitted that he was ever wrong.

JK, you are a snivelling, pathetic coward. This is fact not opinion. Unless you can disprove it, of course.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK
Let's see: For a long time JK spelled atheism "athiesm" and refused to correct the spelling - until he eventually did though without admitting that he'd ever been wrong. For a long time JK claimed that suns generate gravity but mass doesn't - until he eventually just ignored the whole thing, but still hasn't admitted that he was ever wrong.

JK, you are a snivelling, pathetic coward. This is fact not opinion. Unless you can disprove it, of course.

Look folks, we are wasting our time. JK made it up, he knows he made it up but the end result of asking him to support it will be identical to all previous examples. He will throw up fog and mirrors, start a mass of stupid troll threads (as he has recently done) then when he has avoided it for long enough he will claim it was too long ago to be relevant....The guy is a troll, just accept it and have a good laugh at him, but don't stress when he runs like a coward. This Forum has a strong policy of free speech, why do you think dills like this guy end up here? Because his trolling, his stupidity and his racism/sexism/bigotry is tolerated here.

The only real option is for the members of this forum to treat his threads in the manner they deserve....so, having said that, has anyone got any suggestions on a good Donut dough recipe?

[Aardvark_DK]

Or better yet: A really good recipe for pie! Preferably one that doesn't taste of donkey poop.

Mmmmmmmmm, pie!

[headscratcher4]

Second go round...JK:

Humor me, name two off the top of your head....In the last 4 months I read "A Conspiracy So Immence" by Oshinsky -- considered by academics to be an excellent overview of the McCarthy Hearings and HUAC, as well as "Whittaker Chambers" by Tanenhaus -- a very sympathetic biography that argues Chambers was right and told the truth about Hiss and that the liberal establishment didn't understand the real threat (so you might like it) -- neither book, though dealing extensively with HUAC called it the "truth commission". These are only two books however, I am sure that you could name me two that do....ADDED: given how much study you've given to the topic, I am sure that you, like me, have a book or two on your shelf that you can cite....

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Are you really that dense? Post what you professors tell you, then I will give you some sources.

Its a deal.
I got a few more responses since last night. Later this morning, after I get to work, I'll post the text of their responses.
Then you can give your sources.

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Bjorn
Just scrolling through the thread here - was HUAC ever known as 'The Truth Commision' or was it some new info invented by the J? :confused:

Oh, he made it up on the spot. That much is clear from context.
He's making up history off the top of his head, and at the same time has the nerve to call someone "Orwellian" in another thread...

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by The Fool

Look folks, we are wasting our time. JK made it up, he knows he made it up but the end result of asking him to support it will be identical to all previous examples.
Possibly, but people who make up history off the top of their head, without even a whacko source to back it up, irk me.
So, I guess I'll keep it up. After all, a man's got to have a hobby!

[Vorticity]

So, to recap: Our esteemed colleague Jedi Knight has made the assertion that
the well-known House UnAmerican Activities Committee (HUAC) of the 1950's was,
in fact, nicknamed "The Truth Commission". I assert that this is false, that
the term "Truth Commission" is of much more recent vintage, and that he made
this up on the spot to support some bizaare notion of his. He has refused thus
far to give any references, saying only "look it up!"

But don't take my word for it. After all, if "The Truth Commission" was a
well-known nickname for HUAC, surely there'd be some mention of it, right?
Well, out of 11,700 google hits for "HUAC", not one mentions "The Truth
Commission" as a nickname for it. Very suspicious, but not conclusive. So: I
thought I'd ask some experts. I proposed the question "Was the House
Un-American Activities Committee ever nicknamed "The Truth Commission" either
during that era or since?" to several experts on American history via email.

Here are the responses I've gotten so far (I'm leaving most of their names out
for now, to avoid the possibility of certain persons harrassing them via email):

From a U.C. Berkeley Professor of American History
Dear [my name],
I ought to know the answer to this question, having once had the
polarizing experience of lunching with Alger Hiss in New York in the morning and
then on returning to my home town of Cincinnati in the evening running into
Gordon Schirer, the long time Chair of HUAC, who was also associated with and
worked in the same law office as did my father. Had to hand it to Gordon--we
hadn't met in about fifteen years but as a political creature he still had in
his memory data base the name of my first husband and asked after him--and a
greasier handshake I never encountered. But, to respond to your question--I
never recall hearing HUAC being referred to as "The Truth Commission" during
those days of its activity and I don't recall coming across that usage in
reference to it in later books. But this is just anecdotal and personal. You
should ask your disputant to show the evidence--did newspapers and commentators
at the time refer to HUAC as "The Truth Commission?" I would like to know
myself.

The O'Shinsky book, _A Conspiracy So Immense_ might have this reference.

sincerely, [the prof's name]
Indeed, I, too, wish my 'disputant' would show the evidence.
From another U.C. Berkeley Professor of American History
I've never heard of HUAC being so described, either
straight or in an ironic voice. But when I get home tonight I will look through
some books relevant to this (e.g., Eric Bentley's THIRTY YEARS OF TREASON, a
wonderful anthology of HUAC transcripts with a nice introduction), and I'll see
if I can find an example of this. --[the prof's name]
(I haven't heard back yet from him with additional info)
Yet another U.C. Berkeley Professor of American History
Without reviewing any books on the subject (of which I have many),
I will say that I cannot recall ever having heard of HUAC called "The Truth Commission,"
either then or since. --[the prof's name]
Gosh, that's three for three so far. None of these
Professors of American History have even heard of this famous nickname!
But what's that you say? These are all matriarcho-commie professors at leftist
Berkeley? I'm way ahead of you. I have saved the best for last. The last
response I got was from Dr. Ellen Schrecker, whose name I include because she
is so well-known. Specifically, she is recognized as one of the world's leading
authorities on the McCarthy era. She is a full professor of history at Yeshiva
University, and is the author of McCarthyism and the Universities, The
Age of McCarthyism: A Brief History With Documents, and Many are the
Crimes: McCarthyism in America. When asked if she had ever heard of the
HUAC referred to as "The Truth Commission", her reply was:
Dear [my name] --
I never encountered the phrase with regard to HUAC.

E. Schrecker

So: All these experts (including one of the world's leading experts), and not
one has heard of this 'nickname' of yours.

Well, at any rate, I'm ready for your references (as you promised).

My prediction: JK goes on Google or Amazon, finds the titles of some obscure
volumes on the McCarthy era he has never read, posts the titles, and says "here,
go read them".

[headscratcher4]

The O'Shinsky book, _A Conspiracy So Immense_ might have this reference.

As noted above, I recently read this book and do not recall the HUAC being called the "Truth Commission" by partisans of either side. It is a long, detailed book and it is possible that I missed the reference...i.e. if Oshinsky stated it, it was in a very minor context and not at all a "common" term for HUAC or its activities.

On the other hand, it is a very good, detailed book and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the whole HUAC/McCarthy period

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK
Let's see: For a long time JK spelled atheism "athiesm" and refused to correct the spelling - until he eventually did though without admitting that he'd ever been wrong. For a long time JK claimed that suns generate gravity but mass doesn't - until he eventually just ignored the whole thing, but still hasn't admitted that he was ever wrong.

JK, you are a snivelling, pathetic coward. This is fact not opinion. Unless you can disprove it, of course.

You are a nasty person ( a European leftist perhaps?) with no personal skills.

JK

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Post what you professors tell you, then I will give you some sources.
*****Crickets Chirping******

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity

*****Crickets Chirping******

What does "cricket's chirping" mean? Does it mean that you have yet to provide all the e-mail responses to the topic you have been waiting for?

JK

[headscratcher4]

third go round...JK:

Humor me, name two off the top of your head....In the last 4 months I read "A Conspiracy So Immence" by Oshinsky -- considered by academics to be an excellent overview of the McCarthy Hearings and HUAC, as well as "Whittaker Chambers" by Tanenhaus -- a very sympathetic biography that argues Chambers was right and told the truth about Hiss and that the liberal establishment didn't understand the real threat (so you might like it) -- neither book, though dealing extensively with HUAC called it the "truth commission". These are only two books however, I am sure that you could name me two that do....ADDED: given how much study you've given to the topic, I am sure that you, like me, have a book or two on your shelf that you can cite....

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
What does "cricket's chirping" mean? Does it mean that you have yet to provide all the e-mail responses to the topic you have been waiting for?
Do you actually have to have it explained to you? It means it's your turn.

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

What does "cricket's chirping" mean? Does it mean that you have yet to provide all the e-mail responses to the topic you have been waiting for?

JK
I have provided all the email responses I have received so far. I have no way of knowing if I'll receive a response from the other scholars I contacted. Not everyone replies to emails from strangers.

"Crickets Chirping" reflects the profound silence of you NOT giving the sources for your assertion.

The ball is in your court. We await your references.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity

I have provided all the email responses I have received so far. I have no way of knowing if I'll receive a response from the other scholars I contacted. Not everyone replies to emails from strangers.

"Crickets Chirping" reflects the profound silence of you NOT giving the sources for your assertion.

The ball is in your court. We await your references.

Patience apprentice, post the replies when you get them. I especially found the one interesting about Alger Hiss. That is great stuff. Keep it coming.

JK

[headscratcher4]

THe fact that Vorticity's professor met with Alger Hiss, while interesting and possibly confirming of your view of the politics at Berkley, is meaningless to the whole discussion of "the Truth Commission."

He merely stated that he'd not heard the expression used to describe HUAC. You went so far as to claim it was Berkley leftists who coined the phrase...so surely, this alleged leftist (for that, methinks, is what you are implying) would know the phrase and be happy to report it -- as surely it was coined by leftists (if at all) for its ironical value.

Hummor me, name one source.

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Patience apprentice, post the replies when you get them. I especially found the one interesting about Alger Hiss. That is great stuff. Keep it coming.

JK
Glad you enjoyed it, butterfly.
I suspect that at this point I probably won't be getting any more replies. The onus is now on you to post references for your assertion, as promised.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
THe fact that Vorticity's professor met with Alger Hiss, while interesting and possibly confirming of your view of the politics at Berkley, is meaningless to the whole discussion of "the Truth Commission."

He merely stated that he'd not heard the expression used to describe HUAC. You went so far as to claim it was Berkley leftists who coined the phrase...so surely, this alleged leftist (for that, methinks, is what you are implying) would know the phrase and be happy to report it -- as surely it was coined by leftists (if at all) for its ironical value.

Hummor me, name one source.

Me.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity

Glad you enjoyed it, butterfly.
I suspect that at this point I probably won't be getting any more replies. The onus is now on you to post references for your assertion, as promised.

OK, here is my source.

The House Unamerican Activities Commission was a truth commission.

If it wasn't, disprove it. Get your college professors to help you.

JK

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

The House unamerican Activities Commission (HUAC, known as the "Truth Commission"

Do any of you know anything about American history? *crickets chirping*

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

You know what, leftists are the ones who named the HUAC a "Truth Commission". I didn't invent it. It was nicknamed that in the 1950's by leftists who were opposed to it because it exposed communists in the United States and other subversive activity. It was called a "Truth Commission" because it sought to, you know, "get to the truth" regarding a person's affiliation with the communist party.

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Post what you professors tell you, then I will give you some sources.
Originally posted by headscratcher4
Humor me, name one source.
Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Me.

JK
Originally posted by Jedi Knight
OK, here is my source.

The House Unamerican Activities Commission was a truth commission.

If it wasn't, disprove it. Get your college professors to help you.

JK
No, you made the assertion that it was nicknamed "the Truth Commission".
You can't even back up a simple sentence that comes out of your mouth. Because you made it up.

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


OK, here is my source.

The House Unamerican Activities Commission was a truth commission.

If it wasn't, disprove it. Get your college professors to help you.

JK
Chickensh*t blowhard. You don't know doodly-squat about history, and you're berating people for their ignorance.
The fact that I knew all along you'd try to end it like this doesn't make it any less annoying. But somehow satisfying at the same time...

[headscratcher4]

Me.

1. And you are an authority/source/believable on this issue because?

2. Hummor me again, please name any book(s) that you've read on the HUAC/McCarthy hearings and which would support your conclusion?

3. I suspect this was the answer all along...and it is fine to have an opinion whether rational or not ... but why all the song and dance (look it up, leftists called it that, cite sources for me first...etc.)? It is so beneath the intellect you clearly aspire to be :(

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity






No, you made the assertion that it was nicknamed "the Truth Commission".
You can't even back up a simple sentence that comes out of your mouth. Because you made it up.

No, I said it was a "truth commission" and I wanted to recreate one called "The Truth Commission" that followed the same guidelines as the last one because I think communist infiltrators are damaging America.

Get your facts straight.

JK

[The Fool]

Jedi...
One of your best so far..... So the only source is YOU.... lol. Spanking you is becoming way toooooooo easy. Try a bit harder eh? Denying you said that it was called a truth commision is just childish....you are like a 5 year old with a face covered in chocolate saying "I didn't eat it mommy"...lol, you are no fun anymore, you just shoot yourself in the foot without any effort from anyone else.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity

Chickensh*t blowhard. You don't know doodly-squat about history, and you're berating people for their ignorance.
The fact that I knew all along you'd try to end it like this doesn't make it any less annoying. But somehow satisfying at the same time...

Jesus, in your emotional ignorance you don't see how I helped you. Come on, you go to Berkeley for crying out loud. You are supposed to be there for critical thinking.

Now, what did I do for you? Ask yourself that question. Before you attack me because the leftist institution that you attend probably conditioned you to, ponder how I actually helped you.

How did Jedi help you? Even through the vitriol and disrespect you have shown me, I helped you. I helped you approach your leftist college professors with an excellent thesis idea, an idea that intrigued them as they proved in their replies to you.

I gave you a fresh thesis idea, just handed it to you for free, and you didn't see it. I also helped you break into the minds of you professors who you intrigued with the idea and have specifically asked you for a followup.

Sounds like I created an A+ go to the front of the class situation for you Vort, but if you want to keep hanging out in the gutter I really don't care.

That is why I am a genius. I help people even when they crap all over me without any reason to. You should run with this idea because it is fresh and thank me, rather than act like a marginal leftist.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by The Fool
Jedi...
One of your best so far..... So the only source is YOU.... lol. Spanking you is becoming way toooooooo easy. Try a bit harder eh?

Actually it is one of my better remote arrangements. That is one of the problems with being one of the smartest humans on the planet. I have a problem sometimes not expressing my genius when I should know better.

But spanking me was never part of the equation. I am not into masocism. Find me a nice babe, and that is a different story lol.

JK

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

No, I said it was a "truth commission" and I wanted to recreate one called "The Truth Commission" that followed the same guidelines as the last one because I think communist infiltrators are damaging America.

Get your facts straight.

JK
Originally posted by Jedi Knight
You know what, leftists are the ones who named the HUAC a "Truth Commission". I didn't invent it. It was nicknamed that in the 1950's by leftists who were opposed to it because it exposed communists in the United States and other subversive activity. It was called a "Truth Commission" because it sought to, you know, "get to the truth" regarding a person's affiliation with the communist party.
Riiiiiight. Double-plus good.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Jesus, in your emotional ignorance you don't see how I helped you. Come on, you go to Berkeley for crying out loud. You are supposed to be there for critical thinking.

Now, what did I do for you? Ask yourself that question. Before you attack me because the leftist institution that you attend probably conditioned you to, ponder how I actually helped you.

How did Jedi help you? Even through the vitriol and disrespect you have shown me, I helped you. I helped you approach your leftist college professors with an excellent thesis idea, an idea that intrigued them as they proved in their replies to you.

I gave you a fresh thesis idea, just handed it to you for free, and you didn't see it. I also helped you break into the minds of you professors who you intrigued with the idea and have specifically asked you for a followup.

Sounds like I created an A+ go to the front of the class situation for you Vort, but if you want to keep hanging out in the gutter I really don't care.

That is why I am a genius. I help people even when they crap all over me without any reason to. You should run with this idea because it is fresh and thank me, rather than act like a marginal leftist.

JK
Folks, all this crap adds up to is that Jedi often retreats from his lies by stating or implying that he only lies to generate thought and discussion.....Ok, that sounds like fun, but he then whines that people are not nice to him...poor boy, I feel so sorry for him, he weeps for his lost credibility.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by The Fool

Folks, all this crap adds up to is that Jedi often retreats from his lies by stating or implying that he only lies to generate thought and discussion.....Ok, that sounds like fun, but he then whines that people are not nice to him...poor boy, I feel so sorry for him, he weeps for his lost credibility.

I have reams of credibility to give away. Want some?

JK

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Jesus, in your emotional ignorance you don't see how I helped you. Come on, you go to Berkeley for crying out loud. You are supposed to be there for critical thinking.

Now, what did I do for you? Ask yourself that question. Before you attack me because the leftist institution that you attend probably conditioned you to, ponder how I actually helped you.

How did Jedi help you? Even through the vitriol and disrespect you have shown me, I helped you. I helped you approach your leftist college professors with an excellent thesis idea, an idea that intrigued them as they proved in their replies to you.

I gave you a fresh thesis idea, just handed it to you for free, and you didn't see it. I also helped you break into the minds of you professors who you intrigued with the idea and have specifically asked you for a followup.

Sounds like I created an A+ go to the front of the class situation for you Vort, but if you want to keep hanging out in the gutter I really don't care.

Thanks, but I already have a thesis in the works... in fluid dynamics, or didn't you see what it says under my nick?

That is why I am a genius. I help people even when they crap all over me without any reason to. You should run with this idea because it is fresh and thank me, rather than act like a marginal leftist.

JK
Signature, anyone? I don't want to soil myself.

This was a complete and utter cop out, JK.
If you want to be a person who knows about history, the way to do it is to actually learn about history, rather than to make it up as you go along.

[subgenius]

JK: " Find me a nice babe...."
Having trouble on his own? How could that be?:rolleyes:

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


I have a problem sometimes not expressing my genius when I should know better.

JK
you have a problem with telling the truth, you manufacture statistics, assert opinions as fact, lie and fabricate....then you cry when people insist you support these lies.
You have no credibility on this forum, accept that anything you say is regarded by default as lies. You must want it to be that way as honesty is obviously not a priority for you.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


I have reams of credibility to give away. Want some?

JK
Jedi. I hate to tell you this but you can't award yourself credibility. It is something that others decide. If you think you have any credibility on this forum you are wrong...please, please, please ask me to prove it with a poll.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity

Thanks, but I already have a thesis in the works... in fluid dynamics, or didn't you see what it says under my nick?

Signature, anyone? I don't want to soil myself.

This was a complete and utter cop out, JK.
If you want to be a person who knows about history, the way to do it is to actually learn about history, rather than to make it up as you go along.

Hand off that idea to someone in your political theory department if you aren't going to use it. Don't let your emotions get in the way of facts.

Nothing I debated was unfactual. This all began because I said I would like to see another anti-communist Truth Commission in the United States that would mirror the HUAC. The HUAC was a truth commission.

You didn't like it that I wanted to see another Truth Commission like the HUAC and that made it easy for me to capture your mind.

JK

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Hand off that idea to someone in your political theory department if you aren't going to use it. Don't let your emotions get in the way of facts.

Nothing I debated was unfactual. This all began because I said I would like to see another anti-communist Truth Commission in the United States that would mirror the HUAC. The HUAC was a truth commission.

No, you stated, with great authority, that the HUAC was nicknamed "The Truth Commission".

You have since been beaten like a gong.

Jesus, I can't believe I bothered engaging this schmuck. Talk about shooting a maggot with a buffalo gun.

You didn't like it that I wanted to see another Truth Commission like the HUAC and that made it easy for me to capture your mind.

JK
"Your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me..."

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity
"Your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me..."

I never trick, I teach and instruct.

JK

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Actually it is one of my better remote arrangements. That is one of the problems with being one of the smartest humans on the planet. I have a problem sometimes not expressing my genius when I should know better.

You don't seem to have much of a problem expressing your ego either.

I guess your adopting the user name and avatar from one of the 'classics' should have tipped me off.

I'm glad you didn't go with something foolish like He-Man. That would have seemed childish and foolish.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Hand off that idea to someone in your political theory department if you aren't going to use it. Don't let your emotions get in the way of facts.

Nothing I debated was unfactual. This all began because I said I would like to see another anti-communist Truth Commission in the United States that would mirror the HUAC. The HUAC was a truth commission.

You didn't like it that I wanted to see another Truth Commission like the HUAC and that made it easy for me to capture your mind.

JK
No JK the truth is the HUAC was not regarded by anyone except yourself as a truth commission, nobody but you has ever called it a truth commission. You claimed "leftists" nic-named it "truth commission" you cannot support this. You are once again rewriting history and also denying you typed things that are there for all to see.

It is not a truth commission, the HUAC was a pumpkin.

I bet you will be thinking of pumpkins all day now. I've captured your feeble mind with my pumpkin meme. You cannot think of anything but pumpkins....sweet dreams jedi, bet you there are pumpkins in your dreams.....lol, you are an idiot....as if anything you create would ever influence anyone....hahahahahaha :D

[Vorticity]

It probably makes little difference at this point, but for completeness...

I just got two more replies from professors repudiating Jedi's bizaare fiction (names removed to protect the innocent):

"Was the House Un-American Activities Committee ever nicknamed "The Truth Commission" either during that era or since?"

From another U.C. Berkeley Professor of U.S. History
Dear [my name], I am unaware of Truth Commission as a nickname for HUAC. [his name]
From a Columbia University School of Journalism Professor (also one of the nation's leading experts on the McCarthy era):
I have never heard it called The Truth Commission.
Minimalist responses, but they speak volumes. None of these experts on U.S. history have ever even heard the term used.

This has also given me an excuse to bump this thread once again, and to remind everyone of Jedi's lies and idiocy.

Just to remind everyone:
Originally posted by Jedi Knight
You know what, leftists are the ones who named the HUAC a "Truth Commission". I didn't invent it. It was nicknamed that in the 1950's by leftists who were opposed to it because it exposed communists in the United States and other subversive activity. It was called a "Truth Commission" because it sought to, you know, "get to the truth" regarding a person's affiliation with the communist party.
Bwaaaaaaa-ha-ha-haaaaaaaaaaaa!

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity
Bwaaaaaaa-ha-ha-haaaaaaaaaaaa!

...deciphered means: "Jedi is awesome!!"

JK

[Jedi Knight]

A Big chunk of foam brought the shuttle down. (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/science/AP-Shuttle-Investigation.html)

Again, and believe me this is no surpise, Jedi is right!

JK

[subgenius]

And the reason was that Bush chose a bean counter to cut costs instead of a space scientist.
He's already resigned.
If it was the environmentalists fault why didn't Dubya stop them since he is the best president since Lincoln?
Have you enquired of the White House whether it was environmental-commie foam or just foam? Ask them, they will tell you.
If you need an "in", I have one who can get the answer for you.
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22083
I think you can handle the truth.

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
A Big chunk of foam brought the shuttle down. (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/science/AP-Shuttle-Investigation.html)

Again, and believe me this is no surpise, Jedi is right!

JK

Let me remind you of your original post (emphasis mine):


Because of the invasive "environmental" agenda that leaves no stone unturned in reality, the space shuttle Columbia may have been doomed because of changes in the primary booster rocket insulation.


Then take a look at this article, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3019516.stm - pay particularly close attention to the following paragraph (again the emphasis is mine):

Article on BBC News
It is expected that half the final report will focus on Nasa management and culture. The other half will involve technical matters, most notably the loss of foam from space shuttle external fuel tanks during every launch for the past 22 years.


In other words, there is nothing there to indicate that the disaster was caused by "changes in the primary booster rocket insulation."

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Leif Roar
In other words, there is nothing there to indicate that the disaster was caused by "changes in the primary booster rocket insulation."

Incorrect. The foam that fell from that series of booster rocket was the new enviro-commie foam. That was determined months ago.

JK

[Vorticity]

Aaaahh! My favorite all-time thread is back!
Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Again, and believe me this is no surpise, Jedi is right!
Indeed, funny you should bring that up...

Ready to admit that the insane notion that the House Commitee on Un-American Activities was nicknamed "The Truth Commission" was completely made up by you during one of your signature raving deleriums?

(to anybody who doesn't know wtf I'm talking about, scan the last few pages of this classic thread! Its a fun read...)

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity
Aaaahh! My favorite all-time thread is back!

Indeed, funny you should bring that up...

Ready to admit that the insane notion that the House Commitee on Un-American Activities was nicknamed "The Truth Commission" was completely made up by you during one of your signature raving deleriums?

(to anybody who doesn't know wtf I'm talking about, scan the last few pages of this classic thread! Its a fun read...)

It was The Truth Commission.

JK

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Incorrect. The foam that fell from that series of booster rocket was the new enviro-commie foam. That was determined months ago.

JK

What series of booster rockets? What probably caused the disaster was a piece of foam that fell of the external fuel tank - not any of the booster rockets - and struck the shuttle. Pieces of foam have been lost from the external fuel tank in every shuttle launch for the past 22 years.

When you say "new foam" I assume you don't mean something that was introduced back in 1981.

You have presented no reason to assume that this particular piece of foam fell of because it was of the new kind, that it happened to strike the shuttle because of that, or that the old kind of foam wouldn't have caused the same kind of damage to the heat-shielding if a piece of it had struck the shuttle in the same way. In effect, there's no reason to assume that the disaster was caused by the use of a new kind of foam.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Leif Roar


What series of booster rockets? What probably caused the disaster was a piece of foam that fell of the external fuel tank - not any of the booster rockets - and struck the shuttle. Pieces of foam have been lost from the external fuel tank in every shuttle launch for the past 22 years.

When you say "new foam" I assume you don't mean something that was introduced back in 1981.

You have presented no reason to assume that this particular piece of foam fell of because it was of the new kind, that it happened to strike the shuttle because of that, or that the old kind of foam wouldn't have caused the same kind of damage to the heat-shielding if a piece of it had struck the shuttle in the same way. In effect, there's no reason to assume that the disaster was caused by the use of a new kind of foam.

My God man, you have to do some reading in the thread. (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30824)

JK

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


My God man, you have to do some reading in the thread. (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30824)

JK

Sorry, but you're not getting out of this one that easy.

What "series of booster rockets"?

Why should this disaster have been caused specifically by the "new foam", when foam has been lost from the main fuel tank in every launch since 1981?

The article you link to do not answer these questions for you.

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
It was The Truth Commission.
JK, the thought of rehashing this old chestnut of a thread, and once again illustrating your lunacy to all, fills me with a deep feeling of satisfaction, as well as with the warm glow of an impending job well done. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for sticking to your guns...

Now, as some may recall, JK made the following [deranged] claim:
Originally posted by Jedi Knight
The House unamerican Activities Commission (HUAC, known as the "Truth Commission"

Do any of you know anything about American history? *crickets chirping*
As well as:
Originally posted by Jedi Knight
You know what, leftists are the ones who named the HUAC a "Truth Commission". I didn't invent it. It was nicknamed that in the 1950's by leftists who were opposed to it because it exposed communists in the United States and other subversive activity. It was called a "Truth Commission" because it sought to, you know, "get to the truth" regarding a person's affiliation with the communist party.
The above claims were soundly and firmly refuted (as should come as no surprise to anyone with even a modicrum of knowledge about U.S. history), and Jedi Knight went on a tantrum spree.
When asked for references for the above assertion, he gave himself as the sole reference. Classic, classic days were these...
Again, if you're looking for a fun read, just check out the last few pages of this thread.

And JK... any sources for the above assertion?

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Leif Roar


Sorry, but you're not getting out of this one that easy.

What "series of booster rockets"?

Why should this disaster have been caused specifically by the "new foam", when foam has been lost from the main fuel tank in every launch since 1981?

The article you link to do not answer these questions for you.

The article explains that the foam was detaching from the rockets that used the new foam. Read the thread. There are more articles posted than just that one. You are asking me to rehash information already covered numerous times. Don't be lazy. Go back and read the thread.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity

JK, the thought of rehashing this old chestnut of a thread, and once again illustrating your lunacy to all, fills me with a deep feeling of satisfaction, as well as with the warm glow of an impending job well done. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for sticking to your guns...

Now, as some may recall, JK made the following [deranged] claim:

As well as:

The above claims were soundly and firmly refuted (as should come as no surprise to anyone with even a modicrum of knowledge about U.S. history), and Jedi Knight went on a tantrum spree.
When asked for references for the above assertion, he gave himself as the sole reference. Classic, classic days were these...
Again, if you're looking for a fun read, just check out the last few pages of this thread.

And JK... any sources for the above assertion?

You aren't being very bright. The HUAC was a "Truth Commission." It was a commission that sought to find the truth about communist subversive activity in the United States. I already covered this.

This is my final post on the subject.

JK

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
You aren't being very bright. The HUAC was a "Truth Commission." It was a commission that sought to find the truth about communist subversive activity in the United States. I already covered this.
No, no, JK, your claim was much more specific than that! You claimed that the HUAC was nicknamed "The Truth Commission" by "leftists" in the 1950's, i.e. that that name was actively used by people then who were refering to it. You even claimed to have extensive references attesting to this. Got any now?
So you're trying to stick with the new, sanitized, and ambiguous version of your claim, huh? Well, you may like the taste of doublethink, but not me.

This is my final post on the subject.
I'll bet it is. You'd love for this gem to just go away, wouldn't you? Chicken.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity

No, no, JK, your claim was much more specific than that! You claimed that the HUAC was nicknamed "The Truth Commission" by "leftists" in the 1950's, i.e. that that name was actively used by people then who were refering to it. You even claimed to have extensive references attesting to this. Got any now?
So you're trying to stick with the new, sanitized, and ambiguous version of your claim, huh? Well, you may like the taste of doublethink, but not me.

I'll bet it is. You'd love for this gem to just go away, wouldn't you? Chicken.

I gave you the facts. Could it be leftist denial that you refuse to acknowledge them?

I'll bet it is. You'd love for this gem to just go away, wouldn't you? Chicken.

Gosh, you showed me, huh. :rolleyes:

JK

[subgenius]

I guess the president is controlled by Commies since he let it go up with this dangerous stuff.
And all the NASA people were willing to have these brave astronauts killed.
Lots of bad people in that world.

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


The article explains that the foam was detaching from the rockets that used the new foam. Read the thread. There are more articles posted than just that one. You are asking me to rehash information already covered numerous times. Don't be lazy. Go back and read the thread.

JK

Maybe you should actually read itself. You might discover that the pieces of foam in question did not detach from any rockets.

I am not asking you to rehash anything - I am asking you to answer two specific questions - what "series of booster rockets" you were talking about, and why we should conclude that this disaster was caused by the introduction of "new foam", when every launch since 1981 has had foam being lost from the main fuel tank. You refuse to answer either, but merely make vague, hand-waving comments about "reading the thread."

Personally, I don't think you have good answers to those questions, which is why you try to ignore them.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Leif Roar


Maybe you should actually read itself. You might discover that the pieces of foam in question did not detach from any rockets.

I am not asking you to rehash anything - I am asking you to answer two specific questions - what "series of booster rockets" you were talking about, and why we should conclude that this disaster was caused by the introduction of "new foam", when every launch since 1981 has had foam being lost from the main fuel tank. You refuse to answer either, but merely make vague, hand-waving comments about "reading the thread."

Personally, I don't think you have good answers to those questions, which is why you try to ignore them.

I already answered them. :rolleyes:

JK

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


I already answered them. :rolleyes:

JK

I think this is where I reply "Did not!"

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
I gave you the facts.
No, you gave me something you made up off the top of your head and then refused to support anywhere, at any time, in any way. In my world, that doesn't constitute a 'fact'.

Could it be leftist denial that you refuse to acknowledge them?
If 'leftist denial' is the type of denial in which one refuses to uncritically accept as true made up nonsense statements, then yes, I suppose it is.

Gosh, you showed me, huh. :rolleyes:
Actually, now that you mention it, yes. I did. As is obvious to anyone who scans the history of this thread. But let the avoidance tap dance continue...

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Leif Roar


I think this is where I reply "Did not!"

Did so!

JK

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Leif Roar
I think this is where I reply "Did not!"
You see how it is with him?
But no matter. As quick as old forum members learn the truth about the nature of Jedi Knight, a stream of new members replaces them. Only I and a few others have developed the highly aquired taste for tilting at windmills. Especially in this thread, in which I have been driven into a frenzy by the taste of blood upon the water, and the thrashing of the doomed prey. ;)

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity

You see how it is with him?
But no matter. As quick as old forum members learn the truth about the nature of Jedi Knight, a stream of new members replaces them. Only I and a few others have developed the highly aquired taste for tilting at windmills. Especially in this thread, in which I have been driven into a frenzy by the taste of blood upon the water, and the thrashing of the doomed prey. ;)

LOL

Look Vort, besides taking the piss, what have you contributed to counter my accurate HUAC description? Nothing. :rolleyes:

JK

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Look Vort, besides taking the piss, what have you contributed to counter my accurate HUAC description? Nothing. :rolleyes:
Ok, everybody ready? In unison now, and really try to get in the five-part harmony...

YOU MADE THE CLAIM...
YOU PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE...

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity

Ok, everybody ready? In unison now, and really try to get in the five-part harmony...

YOU MADE THE CLAIM...
YOU PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE...

I already posted the evidence.

JK

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
I already posted the evidence.
Point me to this evidence.
You posted zilch. Nada. Zero. Not even an attempt to post evidence.

...whereas I posted half a dozen emails from professors of modern American history refuting your nonsense claim, several of whom actually wrote books about the events in question.

"Have you no decency, sir?"

[Bjorn]

I am very much reminded about the quote (by whoever): "deja-moo - seen the BS before" ... JK never learns. :(

One can maybe hope for something about bodies not having gravity in space, and we'll be right back to the good old days! :p

[subgenius]

I still wanna know about this commie-controlled Bush and all the commie NASA folks who let this happen.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Vorticity

Point me to this evidence.
You posted zilch. Nada. Zero. Not even an attempt to post evidence.

...whereas I posted half a dozen emails from professors of modern American history refuting your nonsense claim, several of whom actually wrote books about the events in question.

"Have you no decency, sir?"

Just save your breath hero. I was right. I am always right.

JK

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
I am always right.

JK Tempt me ... :p

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Bjorn
Tempt me ... :p
Go ahead, do it. Post a link to THE thread. I think its time a new generation of JREFers was aquainted with it...

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by Vorticity

Go ahead, do it. Post a link to THE thread. I think its time a new generation of JREFers was aquainted with it... Oh, which one ... ?

Well, someone should, if he repeats he is always right ... :p

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
I am always right.

-------------------------
Did you ever notice that the truly great/wise are humble,
and those with self-esteem problems need to boast?
More sadness and pathos.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Bjorn
I am very much reminded about the quote (by whoever): "deja-moo - seen the BS before" ... JK never learns. :(

One can maybe hope for something about bodies not having gravity in space, and we'll be right back to the good old days! :p

Ahhhhhh! he good old days of Jedi "marbles are excempt from gravity" Knight....I hope the gravity thread has not been lost in the changeover. It was a classic.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by The Fool


Ahhhhhh! he good old days of Jedi "marbles are excempt from gravity" Knight....I hope the gravity thread has not been lost in the changeover. It was a classic.
Those that lose/forget his history are condemned to hear it repeated.

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by The Fool

Ahhhhhh! he good old days of Jedi "marbles are excempt from gravity" Knight....I hope the gravity thread has not been lost in the changeover. It was a classic.
Ahem...
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9858

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Vorticity

Ahem...
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9858
Didn't want to read the whole thread (my sides were splitting), but let me guess.
He never bothered to look it up somewhere, and he never acknowledged he was wrong.
Because the truth just comes to him.

[Vorticity]

Bump.

Even if he's gone, the insanity must be preserved for future generations...

[gnome]

This must be Bump day...

It's the return of the enviro-commie foam!

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by gnome
This must be Bump day...

It's the return of the enviro-commie foam! But the gravity thread seems to be gone ..... :(

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Vorticity
Bump.

Even if he's gone, the insanity must be preserved for future generations...
Those who forget history....
are condemned to live with feminazis from Mars.

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Bjorn
But the gravity thread seems to be gone ..... :(
I very nearly cried when I realised that.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK

I very nearly cried when I realised that.

That was one of the first threads I read when I came to this forum IIRC - at least the first one I can remember.

I don't think I've ever laughed so hard or marvelled so greatly at the sheer determinedly-self-inflicted ignorance of another human being.

Surely someone has it archived?

Graham