Electric Car

[Kess]

I was amused to see that the "perpetual motion" electric car mentioned in the latest commentary is a modified Delorean.

At least they have a sense of style!

http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Tilley/images/mountain_drive_150.jpg

[bignickel]

Where's the Flux Capacitor? Or it is the Oscillation Overthruster..?

"Hurry Marti!! You must go back... back to the future!"

[arcticpenguin]

Here's their web site:

http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/

Speaking of the future, it says they're going to run another demo by October 15th (check the 'Validation' page). If any of you are in the Nashville vicinity, check it out.

[K-W]

Originally posted by bignickel
Where's the Flux Capacitor? Or it is the Oscillation Overthruster..?

"Hurry Marti!! You must go back... back to the future!"

Hmm, how did they manage to produce the 1.21 jigowats needed to charge the battery before it could perpetually replenish itself. Surely a shady deal with some arms dealers.

[Kess]

Seriously, does anyone know with technical knowledge how far an electric car (without any "magical" properties) could realistically be expected to run on a bank of 12 fully-charged standard car batteries?

(According to the Tilley web site, they "expect to run at least 400 miles on only 12 off the shelf type batteries". It does not explain why the range is only 400 miles - shouldn't it be able to run forever? - nor why 12 batteries are needed since the vehicle is supposed to be, in effect, self-sustaining.)

[DrMatt]

Serious automotive designers who are trying to get the most out of their batteries generally cover the entire surface of the car with photovoltaics. And then they strip the thing down and streamline it like mad. http://www.formulasun.org/asc/

Eventually, as you add batteries, the electric car will come up against the momentum of the batteries themselves. Bigger batteries won't necessarily mean a longer range.

[Kess]

Exactly. So if the car were to manage "only" 400 miles non-stop on its 12 batteries then presumably it would be a major achievement and suggest that something odd is indeed happening...

Wait and see, I guess.

[Crossbow]

400 miles on twelve standard 12V batteries.

Humm, that is not a great deal of energy storage; I would really like to see just how they worked out that 400 mile figure because I suspect that it is very, very optimistic.

For example, one very lightweight and skilled driver, a minimum of equipment aboard the vehicle and the equipment that is used will be brand new, crusing on level ground at best range speed with no stopping and no other traffic to contend with, and very favorable meterological conditions.

In other words, under ideal conditions, the car can travel 400 miles.

But, I guess there will be a bit of a wait until all the facts come out. In the meantime, I would not worry about trading up just jet.

[arcticpenguin]

400 miles
---------------------

I could do 400 miles in my regular infernal combustion car.

Say, if their magic box really puts out more energy than it uses, why do they need batteries at all? Plug in the black box, give it a push start, and off you go!

[Kess]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Say, if their magic box really puts out more energy than it uses, why do they need batteries at all? Plug in the black box, give it a push start, and off you go!
Exactly!

Also the reason they give for needing 12 batteries connected in series is to develop the high voltage (around 150V) needed for the electric motor. Ever heard of step-up transformers guys...

[SkepticScott]

If it's DC a transformer won't work. They'd need a DC-DC converter. For that voltage I think they'd need a custom one. They have very high efficiencies.

(Oh and it's probably "1.21 gigawatts".)

[Kess]

Originally posted by SkepticScott
If it's DC a transformer won't work. They'd need a DC-DC converter.
OK, when I said use a step-up transformer I was just keeping it simple, trying to indicate there should be better alternatives to using 12 bulky car batteries. More specifically, they could use a readily-available inverter to convert 12V DC up to a higher mains-type AC voltage, then rectify this back to DC if that's what the motor needs.

Even better, of course, since their magical generator is allegedly >100% efficient, why don't they just connect several of these in series to provide a mega power boost. Or even feed the output of the generator back into itself (too dangerous, I suppose, as it could lead to thermal runaway, meltdown and the destruction of the Earth...).

[Kess]

I've been continuing to keep an eye on this topic since Randi highlighted it. After the DeLorean broke down in the last public test, Tilley claimed another trial would be performed within 30 days, i.e. by now. However, the website (http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/validation.htm) still says "another test run within 30 days" and hasn't been updated for a while.

Does anyone have any news or updates?

[arcticpenguin]

"another test run within 30 days"
------------------------------------

You may notice that claim was dated September 15th, so he still has a few more days to make good on his promise.

Here's a Forum where related discussion has been occuring since the first test:
http://pub6.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=487525627&cpv=1
Occasionally a Tilley supporter will post info; I saw something once or twice about October 16th, but if it's not being posted on the official Tilley Foundation site I don't see how anyone could give it any weight.

[Kess]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
You may notice that claim was dated September 15th, so he still has a few more days to make good on his promise.
Yeah, I had noticed that but thought by now an announcement would have been made (assuming it's another public demo). Or perhaps it's actually 30 working days, or 30 Martian days, or something else.
Incidentally, I noticed from the Tilley website that they've bought a nice new Nissan SUV for future tests, so it seems that money is being put into the project from somewhere... Tilley's own pocket or gullible investors?

[arcticpenguin]

---------------------------
I noticed from the Tilley website that they've bought a nice new Nissan SUV for future tests, so clearly money is being put into the project from somewhere...
----------------------------

And yet some of the Tilley supporters posting to that forum claim that there are no investors.

[JANman]

electric cars can be made pretty quick,see www.ACpropulsion.com.
click on T-zero races Porsche.
the range aint that great about 100 miles,but it can be recharged in an hour from any electrical outlet.
makes me wonder why cant big car companies make something like that.

:cool:

[arcticpenguin]

---------------------------
electric cars can be made pretty quick,see www.ACpropulsion.com.
click on T-zero races Porsche.
the range aint that great about 100 miles,but it can be recharged in an hour from any electrical outlet.
makes me wonder why cant big car companies make something like that.
---------------------------

They can. I think the problem is that 100 miles is not considered an adequate range, and 1 hour is not considered to be quick enough for a recharge. That would work for a commuter, but not for a longer trip, like a vacation.

Current production gasoline powered cars can get > 300 miles per tank, and can be refilled in 5 minutes or so.

[william1165]

Even with a perpetual-motion device, there needs to be some method of storing energy (for when the device has to stop temporarily, like at a traffic light.) One energy efficient vehicle I saw used a fly wheel. It was engaged to speed up during breaking, then engaged to propel the vehcile forward to get it started again.

But yes, the energy has to come from SOMEWHERE to start. I like the idea of giving it a push. How much over-unity can it produce? How long to get it up to 60 mph?

[arcticpenguin]

------------------------------
Even with a perpetual-motion device, there needs to be some method of storing energy (for when the device has to stop temporarily, like at a traffic light.) One energy efficient vehicle I saw used a fly wheel. It was engaged to speed up during breaking, then engaged to propel the vehcile forward to get it started again.
------------------------------

I don't see the need. If the magic generator is actually producing more energy that is put into it, some of that energy could be used to run an electric motor that turns the generator. Then it would be unnecessary to have the motion of the car turn the generator.

Its October 16th, and there have been no updates on the Tilley Foundation web site about a second demo of his magic car. Tilley has apparently failed to meet his promise of a second demo within 30 days of September 15th.

[arcticpenguin]

The Tilley Foundation has announced a delay in their second public demo. See the validation page at their web site:

http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/validation.htm

How unexpected!

[william1165]

Interesting that he talks about "power" in term of "Volts".

I also note that without the alternator, er, I mean "TEV", the batteries died after 9.8 miles.

[JANman]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
---------------------------
electric cars can be made pretty quick,see www.ACpropulsion.com.
click on T-zero races Porsche.
the range aint that great about 100 miles,but it can be recharged in an hour from any electrical outlet.
makes me wonder why cant big car companies make something like that.
---------------------------

They can. I think the problem is that 100 miles is not considered an adequate range, and 1 hour is not considered to be quick enough for a recharge. That would work for a commuter, but not for a longer trip, like a vacation.

Current production gasoline powered cars can get > 300 miles per tank, and can be refilled in 5 minutes or so.

it can be used as a commuter,in all electric mode,also for long distance driving this T-zero has a hybrid trailer which has small two cylinder gas powered engine which keeps the bateries charged continously,no need to wait just fillit with gas and drive.
www.acpropulsion.com

[arcticpenguin]

Tilley Update:

The Tilley Foundation, after encountering some difficulty modifying a Nissan XTerra, have purchased a Chevy Blazer. They say they will convert this to electric, add their magic box, then test it along with an electric bicycle and golf cart. No mention is made of the original DeLorean.

No specific time or place is given for a public demo.

http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/validation.htm

[Kess]

Another new car! They seem to have plenty of funds to spend (or investors' money to fritter away...)

Why don't they stick to the Delorean - surely all the work has been done. I thought all it needed was a minor repair and it'll be ready for another test.

[william1165]

I don't think they can get parts for a DeLorean anymore.

[Kess]

Originally posted by william1165
I don't think they can get parts for a DeLorean anymore.
I think there's still plenty of parts around - for example take a look at the extensive inventory at http://www.deloreanone.com/cat00/index.html.

Just more excuses for delaying the test re-run, methinks.

[xouper]

Originally posted by Kess
I think there's still plenty of parts around - for example take a look at the extensive inventory at http://www.deloreanone.com/cat00/index.html.Agreed. I've bought a few obscure parts from them, including a hydraulic clutch cylinder. There is also an extensive inventory at the original DeLorean Motor Company (http://www.delorean.com/inventory.asp) in Texas. Off the top of my head, I can think of two major parts that are no longer available new:

the left front fender
the rubber seal for the left rear quarter window

I'm sure there are more such examples, but for most parts, there are plenty in stock. Many other parts are generic Bosch or Delco, and the engine is Volvo (http://www.dmcnews.com/faq/t_power.htm) with a manual 5-speed ZF transaxle.

When my blower motor went out (due to a slow water leak under the dash), I shopped around. The DeLorean dealer in Chicago wanted $143, a local Chevy dealer wanted $68 but couldn't cross reference the Delco part number from the unit I showed them, and the local generic parts store had no difficulty finding a generic replacement (fits 1980 Chevy Monza) for $45.

In other words, I too don't think lack of parts is Tilley's real excuse.

[DrMatt]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
400 miles
---------------------

I could do 400 miles in my regular infernal combustion car.

Say, if their magic box really puts out more energy than it uses, why do they need batteries at all? Plug in the black box, give it a push start, and off you go!

The modern stone-age family....

[Kess]

Hey, there's a kind of update on the Tilley Foundation page (www.tilleyfoundation.com/validation.htm). They seem to be taking a break from their De Lorean and turning their hand to developing an "electric all-terrain vehicle", which is allegedly attracting interest from the military etc. Wow!

http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/photos/atv2.jpg

Er, hang on... Isn't that just a golf buggy painted in camoflage colours?

Originally posted by Kess
Hey, there's a kind of update on the Tilley Foundation page (www.tilleyfoundation.com/validation.htm). They seem to be taking a break from their De Lorean and turning their hand to developing an "electric all-terrain vehicle", which is allegedly attracting interest from the military etc. Wow!

http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/photos/atv2.jpg

Er, hang on... Isn't that just a golf buggy painted in camoflage colours?

Many of our Generals and Admirals are only fit to deploy on the golf course, to say nothing of most civilian appointees in the Dept of Defense.

[Kess]

Thing that amuses me about the Tilley golf buggy - sorry, ATV - is that it still has the standard little golf buggy seats with no sign of seat belts or harnesses (let alone an anti-roll bar or roll cage).

I'd expect the first time it hits a serious bump the driver would be in real danger of getting thrown from the vehicle.

I doubt the manufacturers of Jeeps, Hummers, Land Rovers etc. will be losing any sleep over this.

[arcticpenguin]

And I'll bet it still has the standard issue golf cart electric batteries. Really, if the thing has a 'free energy device' installed, why does it need the batteries?

[davefoc]

I looked around the web site for awhile trying to get some more detailed information and couldn't find any. I couldn't find any information about the size of the batteries, about the nature of their special technology or any information at all suggesting that there was much more to this than a guy in a garage converting some cars to run on electricity.

I did do some calculations on expected ranges for lead acid type batteries. (A caveat: I'm an electrical engineer with no electric car experience).

A standard sedan requires about 12 horsepower to maintain a speed of 60 miles per hour. Sorry not sure of the source for this but I think its roughly correct.

One horsepower equals about 750 watts. So to drive a car 60 miles at 60 miles per hour requires about 9000 watt hours (12 x 750).

The highest capacity deep discharge battery from AC Delco (model 721A) I found on their web site was 250 amp hours at 12 volts or 3000 (12 x 250) watt hours.

So if one assumes 100% efficient electric motors and 100% discharge of the battery an upper limit on the range of a standard sedan from one AC Delco model 721 A battery would be about twenty miles (60 x 3000/9000).

Twelve batteries and somewhat more than 100 miles seems about right for a practical expectation and 400 miles suggests bigger batteries or magic technology.

DrMatt made the following comment:
"Eventually, as you add batteries, the electric car will come up against the momentum of the batteries themselves. Bigger batteries won't necessarily mean a longer range."

I think this is a little off. As a vehicle gets heavier, it requires more energy to start up, but once a steady speed is obtained the increased weight only causes small increases in fuel consumption because of increased friction. Basically the more batteries the more range if the vehicle can handle the weight for steady driving. Around town efficiency might be pretty bad though. A large truck could have a massive range with battery power I suspect, but it might not have any capacity left over for freight.

[Kess]

Originally posted by davefoc
A standard sedan requires about 12 horsepower to maintain a speed of 60 miles per hour. Sorry not sure of the source for this but I think its roughly correct.
I wonder if this figure is correct in this case - the streamlined Delorean should have less drag and so need less fuel to keep it going. Being a sports car it may also be lighter weight than a standard sedan.

davefoc - Tilley has put up some new impressive-sounding results (http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/tatv.htm) using his golf buggy all-terrain vehicle and magical battery charging device. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the report. I wonder if the buggy WITHOUT the charging device is crippled in some way, as in one test it ran out of power after just an hour (is this less than should be expected?), whereas it ran for several hours when the charging device was introduced.

[davefoc]

Kess,
I did take a look at the web site you mentioned. I don't think I could tell much. I do have a few impressions though.

I guess he's claiming that he has some sort of special charger that expands the useful capacity of the battery. Is this some sort of regenerative charger?

The testing seems informal with many problems if one was to use the results to make any sort of judgment about the invention. Among the problems:
1. The state of charge for the batteries wasn't reported before the test began.
2. State of charge not determined on vehicles that ran out of charge to power vehicle.
3. Use of voltage as a means of determining state of charge for lead acid batteries is imprecise especially when there is no load on the battery. I believe that using a hydrometer is the preferred method.
4. Many details were not reported including battery model, battery age, ambient temperature, etc.
5. It wasn't clear to me that the tests were similar enough to make valid comparisons. Did they use different drivers for each of the tests?
6. There is a vast array of possible ways to fake tests like this so even if they had reported something that could be evaluated it would still be difficult to say that there was something here.

In general, I believe the chances that there is something here is very small. Some sort of independent testing agency would be essential. Although, putting it kindly, I didn't see any signs that they would have the expertise to guide an independent laboratory to do useful testing.

The fact that they are spending all this time building vehicles strikes me as strange. If you had just invented a phenomenol battery capacity expander, would you mess with putting it into a vehicle before you had characterized it thoroughly with preliminary testing. Where are the reports on this testing? If I had a method for radically expanding battery capacity I wouldn't be sitting around building fancy golf carts. I'd be spending my time developing and promoting my invention.

[arcticpenguin]

Tilley update: An electric boat uder development:

http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/boat.htm

Sometime in January 2003 the Tilley Foundation, Inc. will complete an "All Electric Boat" that will be tested on the Cumberland River in Tennessee.
...
It will be totally electric and have an on board self charging invention that allows you to never use any outside source of power to keep the batteries charged . Just drive on the water and the batteries stay charged.

If it really has an "overunity" "free energy" device, like the other vehicles they have played with, why does it need batteries at all? have the free energy device run a motor, which runs the free energy device. Duh!

[Kess]

Hi davefoc, thanks for the comments - they basically agree with my impressions.

As you point out the testing methodology is highly unscientific and open to error. I suspect many laymen don't realise that a "dead" battery can show a healthy voltage on a multimeter - when it is not under load.

I was also amused by Tilley's choice of people to do the certifications: law enforcement officer, golf cart repairman, company owner, pizza delivery boy (OK, I made the last one up). Clearly all experts in electrical engineering with the knowledge to perform meaningful measurements and spot any foul play ;)

The fact that they are spending all this time building vehicles strikes me as strange. If you had just invented a phenomenol battery capacity expander, would you mess with putting it into a vehicle before you had characterized it thoroughly with preliminary testing. Where are the reports on this testing? If I had a method for radically expanding battery capacity I wouldn't be sitting around building fancy golf carts. I'd be spending my time developing and promoting my invention.This does seem odd doesn't it, especially with the added news that they are now working on an electric boat too. Mind you, Tilley and co. are getting a lot of nice toys to play with!

[davefoc]

Hi Kess,
Yah, I had about the same thought. It was sort of like listening to an informercial audience and deciding that the latest quack pain relief gadget worked based on their testimonials.

One of the things I'm always curious about with these kind of things is whether the promoter is a true believer or just cynical con-artist. What do you think? My vote here is true believer. The reports and the web site in general seemed so amateurish that I thought any run of the mill con-artist would have done better.

One apparent scam that I've followed for awhile is Black Light Power and hydrinos (http://www.blacklightpower.com/). Their pitch seemed more sophisticated, but pretty much it looked completely bogus to me. My vote on that one was con artist. Any thoughts on these guys?

Cheers from the colonies,
Dave

[arcticpenguin]

Regarding testing of the Tilley "all-terrain vehicle" golf cart,
http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/tatv.htm

This page claims the tests were done by "outside inspectors" but there is no mention of what firm they work for. If they are really outside, I assume they would work for some firm other than the Tilley foundation.

I mean, even if they were free-lance, hiring them directly for the testing would still mean they were under the employ of Tilley.

[Kess]

The latest tests (#8 and #9) - allegedly certified by "proper" engineers - seem to show better test methods (e.g. monitoring the batteries' specific gravity as well as voltage), and at face value would seem to indicate that the batteries are indeed staying charged throughout the tests. Very strange.

There are virtually no details of Tilley's invention on his site. According to a description of it at http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Tilley/how/mnglobal_description.htm it's a 300% efficient generator, so the energy out is 3x the energy put in (!). Putting skepticism to one side for a moment, as davefoc pointed out the most peculiar thing is, if Tilley really had come up with such an extraordinary invention, why is he wasting time tinkering with golf buggies etc.?

[Kess]

Originally posted by davefoc
One apparent scam that I've followed for awhile is Black Light Power and hydrinos (http://www.blacklightpower.com/). Their pitch seemed more sophisticated, but pretty much it looked completely bogus to me. My vote on that one was con artist. Any thoughts on these guys?
The BlackLight web site is very nice - I wish my company's web site was as well designed. I see they're recruiting - perhaps one of us should apply...

I thought the BlackLight site looked quite convincing until I reached their Theory page, which seems to be total technobabble. Consider this line from it: "The universe is time harmonically oscillatory in matter energy and spacetime expansion and contraction with a minimum radius that is the gravitational radius." Not good.

[Argo Nimbus]

Originally posted by Kess

I thought the BlackLight site looked quite convincing until I reached their Theory page, which seems to be total technobabble. Consider this line from it: "The universe is time harmonically oscillatory in matter energy and spacetime expansion and contraction with a minimum radius that is the gravitational radius." Not good.

No, the webpage blurb is not good. It looks like it was originally written in a foreign language and then translated into English by an incompetent translator. :D However, there are some technical papers available that are at least written by someone who knows English, for example:

// Classical Quantum Mechanics
http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/CQM12.27.02.pdf

Anyone know enough QM to say whether this paper makes any sense?

--- Argo

[william1165]

I say, let the JREF purchase the Tilley alternator, I mean, FED, and run it through some proper tests. Of course, they can't SAY they are representing the JREF, our we KNOW Tilley will run and hide.

Or is that what we want?

[arcticpenguin]

I doubt that they would sell quantity one. I think their scam is to get investors to plow in development capitol. It's obvious they will never have an actual functional, marketable product.

[davefoc]

I just read through the test #8 and test #9 results plus the greaterthings link suggested by Kess. This link leads to all sorts of stuff, all of which seems a little out there. Greaterthings seems to be some sort of Christian web site with some strange ideas. Minnesota Global (Ed Anderson the listed author of the report is Minnesota Global chairman of the board) seems to be a sort of small time entrepreneurial company dealing with donut making equipment that is attempting to expand into "alternative energy" devices.

I certainly withdraw my comment about true believer. Mr. Tilley, looks like routine, perpetual motion con-artist. With reference to test #8 and #9, while they did address some of my objections I posted previously, they seem very suspicious. Why stop at 20 miles? If you have a perpetual motion machine just drive it continuously and then call up the press to watch it run. Instant validation of your claims.

Obviously, if one has a device which can generate more power than it uses, one doesn't need silly golf cart tests. One just gets a report validating the claim from an independent test lab and the one goes on to be the most famous and probably wealthiest person in the history of the world. Since Mr. Tilley hasn't done this it appears very likely that he has no inventions of any value and that he is just attempting to generate money through fraud.

[Kess]

Originally posted by davefoc
Why stop at 20 miles? If you have a perpetual motion machine just drive it continuously and then call up the press to watch it run. Instant validation of your claims.
Yes, just stick it on a rolling road and let it run and run.

There have been some good discussions about Tilley on the forum at greaterthings.com, and someone there just uncovered a useful article on the endurance of electric golf buggies at http://www.parcar.com/about/press_releases/4-27-2001_challenge.html. It seems that the best "conventional" buggies - without any special generators - can do over 100 miles on a single charge, so Tilley's claims for his design don't seem particularly exceptional.

(Looking back at Tilley's certifications, most of his tests simply state the total mileage as "unknown". However, test #1 reports that, without Tilley's magic generator, the buggy's batteries would be depleted after only 7.8 miles. Of course, when the generator was added in test #2 the buggy managed this impressive distance with ease... ) ;)

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by davefoc
Greaterthings seems to be some sort of Christian web site with some strange ideas.
I believe the person who runs it was booted out of the Mormon church because his beliefs were too weird. Draw your own conclusions.

[arcticpenguin]

Developments at the Greater Things (http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Tilley/index.html) web site. This site has been providing uncritical coverage of Tilley's adventures, but now seems to be turning on him. They claim that there is a whistleblower and that a local news station will be running some sort of expose.

The webmaster of this site, Sterling D. Allan, is involved in other "Free Energy" projects, so I would be hesitant to take him at full face value. In fact, he is claiming that Tilley stole the technology from someone else, which sounds pretty pathetic and bizarre.

[davefoc]

thanks for the update a. penquin. Guess I don't need to be looking for those perpetual motion machinges anytime soon at the local home depot.

After I wrote the above, I realized that Home Depot had carried what seemed like a bogus energy saving device called the power planner. I wrote them an email expressing my scepticism that included a link to a guy who done some actual testing on the device. They never wrote back, but in a very short time I noticed that they weren't carrying the device anymore.

[Kess]

I'm quite amused by the venom now being shown by Sterling D. Allen towards Tilley. A shame he didn't apply the same critical analysis and skepticism a little sooner.

Bizarrely, as arcticpenguin points out, it would seem the experience hasn't dented Mr. Allen's belief in other free energy personalities and projects.

[NWilner]

Actually 12 hp is a tad low for 60 mph cruise. The old formula, still holding for most internal combustion engines, is .5 pph (pounds per hour fuel) per horsepower hour. A 12 hp engine would use 6 pph, or about 1 gal/hr. At 60 mph this would mean 60 mpg. Some very efficient cars may do this, but not the average sedan. I would expect about 2 gph, 30 mpg, at best for 20-25 hp at 60 mph.

Another way to estimate: Power required scales as the cube of speed. At 120 mph the power required would equal 12 x 8 = 96 hp. Ford Tauruses (Tauri?) with 140 hp engines can't make it much over 110. Few 96 hp cars can go an honest 120.

[arcticpenguin]

http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Tilley/fraud/030211_Channel4.htm

Anyone near Nashville?

Channel 4, WSMB TV, is supposed to air their 'Tilley expose' starting on today's (20 February 2003) 6 o'clock news, with another segment tomorrow night.

[SFB]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Tilley/fraud/030211_Channel4.htm

Anyone near Nashville?

Channel 4, WSMV TV, is supposed to air their 'Tilley expose' starting on today's (20 February 2003) 6 o'clock news, with another segment tomorrow night.

Ya know what's funny about that link? Here they are, all ready to de-bunk Tilley, when there's an advertisement in the upper-left for a Tornado "fuel saver." If I find a way I'll send them an e-mail recommending they investigate that also!

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by SFB

Ya know what's funny about that link? Here they are, all ready to de-bunk Tilley, when there's an advertisement in the upper-left for a Tornado "fuel saver." If I find a way I'll send them an e-mail recommending they investigate that also!
Is that on the Greater Things web site? They believe in a great many things. If you look around his stuff on the Tilley scam, you'll see he is claiming that Tilley stole his technology from someone else. What technology?! That's one reason I am interested in hearing about any mainstream media exposure on Tilley, I'm not comfortable with Sterling Allan being my sole source of info on anything.

[davefoc]

Norwood,
Thanks for the input. When I did the calculation on the maximum range for an electric car I was looking for a source for the horsepower required to keep it going at 60 miles per hour and didn't find one. Twelve horsepower was a number that I remembered from an engineering class many years ago.

I noticed you didn't take friction into account when you provided the estimate for increased drag with wind speed. That would change results somewhat since this is only linearly proportional to speed I believe.

Anyway based on your info and some calculations based on the range of some actual electric cars I suspect the real number is more like twenty horsepower.

[NWilner]

That's right, rolling and sliding friction coefficients are more or less constant over a wide range of speeds, so power required to overcome them scales linearly with speed. Above 45 mph aerodynamic drag predominates unless you are a freight train or something. But the fuel usage argument leads to 20 hp or so at 60, as you say, and further undermines the range promises of the electric car sponsors.

[arcticpenguin]

http://www.wsmv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1141479&nav=9Tb0E7wT

Coverage on Tilley by Channel 4 in Nashville. They really don't go into the scientific impossibilities, they just dig up some old dirt on Tilley. Apparently he ran a solar energy scam in Wyoming before moving to Tennessee.

[SFB]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Is that on the Greater Things web site? They believe in a great many things. If you look around his stuff on the Tilley scam, you'll see he is claiming that Tilley stole his technology from someone else. What technology?! That's one reason I am interested in hearing about any mainstream media exposure on Tilley, I'm not comfortable with Sterling Allan being my sole source of info on anything.

It was on the site yesterday, today the ad is gone. I received a response from Sterling today saying he would not look into the Tornado without further evidence. I plan to find it, but I doubt this'll make any waves. I am unfamiliar with Allen, let alone Tilley making mainstream media exposure.

[arcticpenguin]

Part two of the Tilley coverage by TV station WSMV in Nashville is available: http://www.wsmv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1141631&nav=1TcRE9Zm

They catch Tilley on camera in several lies.

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
Part two of the Tilley coverage by TV station WSMV in Nashville is available: http://www.wsmv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1141631&nav=1TcRE9Zm

They catch Tilley on camera in several lies.

I think this is probably the best quote:


(Amons) "What's in the thing?"
(Tilley) Little gerbils. Little bitty gerbils. And they're on steroids."


He may actually be telling us the truth here.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist

He may actually be telling us the truth here.
If he is, we could sic PETA on him.
;)