remote reiki [Archive]

fishbait

20th September 2005, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by LibraryLady
I thought you had to be in the same room for reiki. It works from miles away? Maybe he's sending one of these. (http://www.reikiballoons.com/) For example, if you are having surgery next week, and want to receive Reiki during your procedure, we would send you a Pink Balloon filled with Reiki, to hover over you and provide you with an unlimited supply of Reiki to draw from during your treatment.Suggested uses from the website: Illness
Hospital stay
Wedding
School exam
Court date"Court date"? For example, if you are being prosecuted next week, and want to receive Reiki after your conviction, we would send you a Pink Balloon filled with Reiki, to hover over you and provide you with an unlimited supply of Reiki to draw from during your sentencing.

Studies have shown that most judges are more apt to give lighter sentences to perps standing before them holding a pink ballon filled with reiki.

crimresearch

20th September 2005, 11:22 PM

What Mercutio said...in the Level II Reiki training, the symbols and activations are supposed to allow Reiki to be sent remotely...just getting the Reiki I training will only activate the hands on Reiki...

And in Level III Reiki training...well, that will be $10,000 in advance please.
;)

jimtron

21st September 2005, 12:55 AM

...he told me that he is a practitioner of reiki and if I would write my name down for him, he would sent the reiki to me remotely and it would help me to heal.

Why would that require the subject's name?

Ceinwyn

21st September 2005, 01:52 AM

This crap really pisses me off because while my mom was dying from MS, I had hired a woman to look after her while I couldn't.

As I found out, she was all into Reiki and healing touch and whatnot, and decided to try it on my mom. She'd tell me "she needs more vitamin A, B, C" what the hell ever while waving her skinny arms around my mother's body. Once I realized what was going on, I pretty much fired her and took over again.

My mom died in 2001. This bitch had the nerve to come to the funeral and advise me that I should seek out Sylvia Browne because "she can help you reconnect with your mom."

I didn't strike her, much as I wanted to. I just never spoke to her again.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

21st September 2005, 06:02 AM

Merc, you just made up the journal Clinical Journal of Oncology Nursing and the article, didn't you? You just made it right up.

~~ Paul

Mercutio

21st September 2005, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Merc, you just made up the journal Clinical Journal of Oncology Nursing and the article, didn't you? You just made it right up.

~~ Paul You wish. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12629941&dopt=Abstract) If you google for it, you can find this article in pdf format.

Tyltyl

21st September 2005, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by LibraryLady

I thought you had to be in the same room for reiki. It works from miles away?

Yes, it's wireless reiki :p

Ashles

21st September 2005, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by Ceinwyn
I didn't strike her, much as I wanted to. I just never spoke to her again.
Sorry to hear your story Ceinwyn.

I honestly and seriously don't know how you resisted hitting her.

I have no wish to encourage violence, but I am feeling angry just reading about that. I commend your self restraint.

Sorry again for your loss.

LibraryLady

21st September 2005, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by Ceinwyn
This crap really pisses me off because while my mom was dying from MS, I had hired a woman to look after her while I couldn't.

As I found out, she was all into Reiki and healing touch and whatnot, and decided to try it on my mom. She'd tell me "she needs more vitamin A, B, C" what the hell ever while waving her skinny arms around my mother's body. Once I realized what was going on, I pretty much fired her and took over again.

My mom died in 2001. This bitch had the nerve to come to the funeral and advise me that I should seek out Sylvia Browne because "she can help you reconnect with your mom."

I didn't strike her, much as I wanted to. I just never spoke to her again.

I can just hear her telling the story. "And there I was, helping her with Reiki, and Ceinwyn stopped me. It was all his fault."

You just gotta wonder.

My condolences.

LibraryLady

21st September 2005, 08:16 AM

Originally posted by jimtron
Why would that require the subject's name?

Well, strangely, he knows my name. I've been helping him for twenty plus years. He's addressed me by name. I think maybe the paper with my name must have "the power."

Mercutio

21st September 2005, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by LibraryLady
Well, strangely, he knows my name. I've been helping him for twenty plus years. He's addressed me by name. I think maybe the paper with my name must have "the power." I have in my office a set of dowsing and radiesthesia pendulums (http://www.diviningmind.com/universalset.html) (yes, it cost 400 bucks) (hell yes, it was a grant) which can be used for remote healing...but even with this highly scientific setup, you need a "witness" to aim it at--it could be a photograph, a strand of hair...I suppose that is what the piece of paper acts as.

Anyway, if anyone here wants me to heal them at a distance, just send me a $20 bill and a photograph...I promise to follow the instructions and everything...

Wudang

21st September 2005, 09:01 AM

Hell, I'll do it for free. PM me for what I'll require in the photograph. Can't say more here with the mods watching.

Do I have to say I'm joking?

LibraryLady

21st September 2005, 09:11 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wudang
[B]Hell, I'll do it for free. PM me for what I'll require in the photograph. Can't say more here with the mods watching.

:o

MoonDragn

21st September 2005, 09:15 AM

Yes Reiki II was supposed to be at a distance. I am actually qualified for Reiki II as well but I would never charge anybody for it..

My personal take on Reiki? Its alot of hoodoo mixed with something that might work close up. I have always been able to heal myself faster than normal by putting my hands on a wound, but I've never believed you could heal at a distance.

I've have gone to Reiki circles to experience first hand what its like from other people and some people you can really feel the energy off of them and some nothing at all.

There is of course no scientific proof whatsoever but usually when I put my hands over someone I can sense "cold spots" which relate almost directly to something wrong with their body.

As for the story with your mom, you're not supposed to do Reiki on anyone without their permission. I'm sorry you feel that way about it but that lady was just sharing her belief. Real or not, it was just a belief.

Ashles

21st September 2005, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by MoonDragn
My personal take on Reiki? Its alot of hoodoo mixed with something that might work close up. I have always been able to heal myself faster than normal by putting my hands on a wound.
Compared to what? How do you know you have accelerated the healing?

If you have nothing to compare it to then you are just guessing and almost certainly incorrectly.
If you have a way of showing that you have accelerated the healing then you can win a million dollars.

But for some reason you will decide that neither of these two options is applicable.

It really is slightly worying for several different reasons when people honestly believe they can heal just by waving their hands over someone.

BTW 'it was just a belief' is no defense for ignorant, rude, offensive or otherwise unpleasant behaviour. And sometimes it can be dowright dangerous.
I think we are all fully aware of what beliefs can lead to sometimes, whether the belief be of a fundamentalist relgious persuasion, or an alternative medical practice.
Or the human parasites that call themselves psychics and mediums and interfere with the grieving process.

MoonDragn

21st September 2005, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by Ashles
Compared to what? How do you know you have accelerated the healing?

If you have nothing to compare it to then you are just guessing and almost certainly incorrectly.
If you have a way of showing that you have accelerated the healing then you can win a million dollars.

Compared to other people. Just by comparison it "seems" I heal faster. But since I'm not a doctor I really know nothing about it, it could have very normal explainations. Who cares about the million dollars. You seem to think that everyone who claims to be psychic is in it for the money. There are those of us who grew up with it that are just curious to learn what it is exactly and really don't want to be singled out as a freak, which is what will happen when you do these tests.

Originally posted by Ashles
BTW 'it was just a belief' is no defense for ignorant, rude, offensive or otherwise unpleasant behaviour. And sometimes it can be dowright dangerous.
I think we are all fully aware of what beliefs can lead to sometimes, whether the belief be of a fundamentalist relgious persuasion, or an alternative medical practice.
Or the human parasites that call themselves psychics and mediums and interfere with the grieving process. [/B]

It was her belief, I don't think she was intentionally trying to be rude. From her perspective it may have been a kind gesture. I find it more offensive when someone comes up to me on the subway and starts preaching things from the Bible. Why is that not rude? Who gets to judge what is rude or not because it doesn't match their beliefs?

I find it VERY rude for someone to ostracize another person for their personal belief. Hurt other people ? The only hurt that usually comes is when greedy people who don't believe this stuff anyway decide to make money off of it by deceiving other people. Those people are usually skeptics to begin with.

LordoftheLeftHand

21st September 2005, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by MoonDragn
I have always been able to heal myself faster than normal by putting my hands on a wound, but I've never believed you could heal at a distance.

I've have gone to Reiki circles to experience first hand what its like from other people and some people you can really feel the energy off of them and some nothing at all.

There is of course no scientific proof whatsoever but usually when I put my hands over someone I can sense "cold spots" which relate almost directly to something wrong with their body.

Sounds like a $1,000,000.00 challenge. Woohoo your gonna be rich!

LLH

Bronze Dog

21st September 2005, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by MoonDragn
Compared to other people. Just by comparison it "seems" I heal faster. But since I'm not a doctor I really know nothing about it, it could have very normal explainations.
My suspicions: You've got some fast-healing genes and/or confirmation bias.

Who cares about the million dollars. You seem to think that everyone who claims to be psychic is in it for the money.I should mention the challenge more often than the million. The money is irrelevant. The challenge, though, is quite worthwhile: You pass the JREF, and you'll have people like me giving you their undivided attention. If you can get another organization or two to replicate the test and results, it wouldn't be long before reiki or whatever is accepted as mainstream.

There are those of us who grew up with it that are just curious to learn what it is exactly and really don't want to be singled out as a freak, which is what will happen when you do these tests.Then maybe you should find someone who wants the exposure to take the challenge. Unfortunately, there seem to be very few claimants willing to endure unwanted fame to convince anyone that there's another field of viable medical treatments.

Ashles

21st September 2005, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by MoonDragn
Compared to other people. Just by comparison it "seems" I heal faster. But since I'm not a doctor I really know nothing about it, it could have very normal explainations.
So why do you assume paranormal explanations in the first instance? That makes no sense.
You think you heal faster, you admit that it might be your imagination and that you have no medical training.
Yet you state as fact: "I have always been able to heal myself faster than normal by putting my hands on a wound"

We often see these throwaway comments from people who desperately want to have paranormal abilities or appear special, but obviously can't really demonstrate any unusual ability.

Who cares about the million dollars. You seem to think that everyone who claims to be psychic is in it for the money.
If there was a test that paid a million dollars to demonstrate something I could do, I would certainly take that test then use the million dollars in whatever way I wished.
You could give the money to charity, help your friends and relatives, set yourself up as a healer to help others...
But no. Of course. Psychics aren't interested in money. Or helping anyone else with that money obviously.

This is a lame excuse, and it gets lamer every time we hear it.

There are those of us who grew up with it that are just curious to learn what it is exactly and really don't want to be singled out as a freak, which is what will happen when you do these tests.
Or you could of course help science to advance and help millions of people around the world.
And if so many people have these abilities then you wouldn't be a lone freak, but part of a group.

It also doesn't quite explain why, if people are so scared of being ostracised by society, that people who have these 'gifts' mention having these gifts all the time, at any possible opportunity.

And you don't see the likes of Sylvia Brown, Derek Acorah, John Edwards etc. being labelled freaks. People love them and can't get enough of them.

Sorry, I'm afraid that is just another lame excuse that gets lamer every time we hear it.

It was her belief, I don't think she was intentionally trying to be rude. From her perspective it may have been a kind gesture. I find it more offensive when someone comes up to me on the subway and starts preaching things from the Bible. Why is that not rude? Who gets to judge what is rude or not because it doesn't match their beliefs?
Something is rude dependent on a person finding it rude.
And most people have the abilty to know when a comment they might make could be inappropriate.
For example at a funeral if someone says "Well they're in heaven now" I won't respond by saying that I don't believe there is a heaven and that they are just dead.
It might my belief, but it would be inappropriate.
Unlike you I don't think "Well it's my belief" is a suitable defense for saying potentially offensive things whenever I feel like it.

I find it VERY rude for someone to ostracize another person for their personal belief.
My what a big strawman. Where did that come from?
Who said anything about ostracising anyone? Nice attempt to change direction, but it's not what anyone has been suggesting.

Hurt other people ? The only hurt that usually comes is when greedy people who don't believe this stuff anyway decide to make money off of it by deceiving other people. Those people are usually skeptics to begin with.
You obviously don't have the first clue what the word 'sceptic' means.
Either that or it is a rather childish attempt to tar sceptics with the same brush as the very people sceptics quite obviously criticise regularly.

So ignorant or childish? Which best describes you?

Ripley Twenty-Nine

21st September 2005, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by MoonDragn
Compared to other people. Just by comparison it "seems" I heal faster. But since I'm not a doctor I really know nothing about it, it could have very normal explainations. Who cares about the million dollars. You seem to think that everyone who claims to be psychic is in it for the money. There are those of us who grew up with it that are just curious to learn what it is exactly and really don't want to be singled out as a freak, which is what will happen when you do these tests.

I'm sorry, but the 'I don't want to be singled out as a freak' is an argument that does not hold any water. You claim to posess an ability that would completely revolutionize human knowledge, and change known science and physics, AND would get you enough money to never have to worry about paying bills for the rest of your life, and you don't want to do it because you'd be singled out as a freak? Sorry, try and sell that elsewhere cause I ain't buying.

It was her belief, I don't think she was intentionally trying to be rude. From her perspective it may have been a kind gesture. I find it more offensive when someone comes up to me on the subway and starts preaching things from the Bible. Why is that not rude? Who gets to judge what is rude or not because it doesn't match their beliefs?
Who said that someone on the subway quoting from the bible was not rude? Nobody here tried to make that argument. However, by your logic, that person would also have been doing it as 'a kind gesture'.

I find it VERY rude for someone to ostracize another person for their personal belief. Hurt other people ? The only hurt that usually comes is when greedy people who don't believe this stuff anyway decide to make money off of it by deceiving other people. Those people are usually skeptics to begin with.
So you don't see anything wrong with a medium, even working for free, giving a bereived person false memories about their loved ones? Putting words in their mouth that they never said? No problem there?

MoonDragn

21st September 2005, 10:37 AM

From your initial response to this one one thing is very clear, you love to call people names. "So ignorant or childish?", ask yourself that question. You try to steer the topic in different directions not me, I was relating personal opinion. If you don't agree with that opinion fine, I don't try to take apart your beliefs. Whether or not I believe I can really do those things isn't the issue here is it? Why don't you try my challenge.. I'll give you $100 bucks if you can scientifically prove your not a total moron. To prove it, I'll give you a test where I judge the results. Of course you have to provide your own transportation.

MoonDragn

21st September 2005, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by Ripley Twenty-Nine

So you don't see anything wrong with a medium, even working for free, giving a bereived person false memories about their loved ones? Putting words in their mouth that they never said? No problem there?

Whats so different about saying that and someone saying "Don't worry, I see them with god now? Talk to your priest". You could take that as a kind statement if you believed in god, but what if you didn't?

Where was she trying to put words in her mouth? She asked her to "seek out Sylvia Browne because "she can help you reconnect with your mom."

Nowhere in that sentence do i find her putting anything rude.

Maybe because I come from a different culture, but where I grew up spirits were accepted real or not.

Ashles

21st September 2005, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by MoonDragn
From your initial response to this one one thing is very clear, you love you call people names. So ignorant or childish, ask yourself that question. You try to steer the topic in different directions not me, I was relating personal opinion. If you don't agree with that opinion fine, I don't try to take apart your beliefs.
I have no intention to challenge people's beliefs, it is actual testable claims that I question and ask evidence for.
And also the appropriateness of situations when people push their beliefs onto others.

Whether or not I believe I can really do those things isn't the issue here is it? Why don't you try my challenge.. I'll give you $100 bucks if you can scientifically prove your not a total moron. To prove it, I'll give you a test where I judge the results. Of course you have to provide your own transportation.
Is that supposed to parody the JREF challenge?
If it is then you have incorrectly assumed that it is a challenge which involves personal judging. It doesn't. A pass rate is agreed by the testers and the claimant prior to testing.

The fact that I can point out the flaws in your test should logically mean I have already passed it.
Cheque will be fine.

crimresearch

21st September 2005, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by MoonDragn
From your initial response to this one one thing is very clear, you love to call people names. "So ignorant or childish?", ask yourself that question. You try to steer the topic in different directions not me, I was relating personal opinion. If you don't agree with that opinion fine, I don't try to take apart your beliefs. Whether or not I believe I can really do those things isn't the issue here is it? Why don't you try my challenge.. I'll give you $100 bucks if you can scientifically prove your not a total moron. To prove it, I'll give you a test where I judge the results. Of course you have to provide your own transportation.

As MoonDragn is finding out, 'Xxxx is woo, but...' is like waving a red flag in front of a bull around here.

Feeling the cold spots in Reiki, just like feeling the 'energy' warmth/tingling in Qigong is a purely subjective thing, and as far as I'm concerned, you are welcome to it.

But if there is an implicaton that the feeling of cold spots correlates to something, such as old injuries, and then an attempt to construct a 'healing modality' on top of that correlation...then that would want testing, wouldn't it?

Is there anything innately wrong with moving observations like the above from the realm of the subjective to the objective via testing?

MoonDragn

21st September 2005, 11:04 AM

So what happens when the testers and claimant refuse to agree?

When I related my personal experience, I qualified it by saying that I don't know if its a true ability or not, because I am not a specialist on human physiology and cannot tell what is "Normal" for healing rate. You however took that as me saying that I claimed to be able to do it but are making excuses.

Well I can give you physical challenge like score 75 baskets from 50 feet away in 100 tries. If you fail you are a moron. Thats what I feel about the challenge, its like asking someone to score baskets. These abilities require alot of practice and understanding on how they work. IF they work at all. If you start from a point of disbelief, how can it possibly work at all? Imagine trying to score a basket while people are laughing at you saying you can't do it.

crimresearch

21st September 2005, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by MoonDragn
So what happens when the testers and claimant refuse to agree?

When I related my personal experience, I qualified it by saying that I don't know if its a true ability or not, because I am not a specialist on human physiology and cannot tell what is "Normal" for healing rate. You however took that as me saying that I claimed to be able to do it but are making excuses.....

No, I didn't, I just asked what was wrong with testing.

MoonDragn

21st September 2005, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by crimresearch
But if there is an implicaton that the feeling of cold spots correlates to something, such as old injuries, and then an attempt to construct a 'healing modality' on top of that correlation...then that would want testing, wouldn't it?

Is there anything innately wrong with moving observations like the above from the realm of the subjective to the objective via testing?

It sure is worth testing out. Is it really all in my mind? Everytime I have felt a cold spot on someone and asked them, it was always confirmed by the other person as relating to some injury either in the present or the past. Most of the time it requires physical touch for me, but in very rare occasions it was possible to do so without touch. Real or not, I do not want an onus of having to prove something to someone. How well do people perform under pressure? How much do we know about these abilities to know if they even work under pressure? Does it require a willing participant? Does it require they believe ? Does it require low lighting? Does it require a certain musical setting?

A truely scientifically conducted test for different conditions would really help too. Anything would be a shot in the dark, but it would be the first step towards understanding.

MoonDragn

21st September 2005, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by crimresearch
No, I didn't, I just asked what was wrong with testing.

Sorry I was replying to ashe's question.

Moochie

21st September 2005, 11:12 AM

Mercutio

21st September 2005, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by MoonDragn
Well I can give you physical challenge like score 75 baskets from 50 feet away in 100 tries. If you fail you are a moron. Thats what I feel about the challenge, its like asking someone to score baskets. These abilities require alot of practice and understanding on how they work. IF they work at all. If you start from a point of disbelief, how can it possibly work at all? Imagine trying to score a basket while people are laughing at you saying you can't do it. This would be a very good test of someone who claimed that they could score a minimum of 75 baskets from 50 feet away in 100 tries. I don't know of anyone who has claimed that, but if they do, it is a good test.

What is claimed, though, is that reiki has effects on healing. A good test of that would be every bit as self-evident as your basketball test, so that all observers present can tell whether a claimant passed or failed. Even a simpler test would be of your claim that you can feel some people's energy strongly. Simply pick out a few of those people, verify for yourself that you can feel their energy, then try Emily Rosa's procedure with them. See if you can, without the benefit of seeing their hand near yours, still feel their energy. If you cannot, then your perception was likely the result of expectancy. If you can, you are on your way to winning a million.

Ashles

21st September 2005, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by MoonDragn
So what happens when the testers and claimant refuse to agree?
The test will not take place until the protocol is totally agreed. Part of the protocol is agreeing what constitutes a pass.
Obviously it has to be at a rate that is much higher than chance. But this appears to rarely be a problem in protocol negotiations.

When I related my personal experience, I qualified it by saying that I don't know if its a true ability or not, because I am not a specialist on human physiology and cannot tell what is "Normal" for healing rate. You however took that as me saying that I claimed to be able to do it but are making excuses.
You said "I have always been able to heal myself faster than normal by putting my hands on a wound, but I've never believed you could heal at a distance."
There was no qualifier. No element of doubt. You stated that you had the ability quite clearly.

If you had said that you felt that you healed quicker than normal, but weren't sure, then we could have discussed it from that point of view. But you initially made a bald claim as a statement of fact, and in other situations people might have believed you in the first instance even though you have several doubts about your actual ability. That was what I was responding to.

Well I can give you physical challenge like score 75 baskets from 50 feet away in 100 tries. If you fail you are a moron. Thats what I feel about the challenge, its like asking someone to score baskets. These abilities require alot of practice and understanding on how they work. IF they work at all. If you start from a point of disbelief, how can it possibly work at all? Imagine trying to score a basket while people are laughing at you saying you can't do it.
Again you are not talking about the JREF test.

The JREF test is not interested in the mechanism or explanation of a claim, merely can it be demonstrated.
It is other people who make these claims, and they say they can perform reliably.
It isn't like scoring baskets in your made up example, which would be extremely difficult for someone, even if they were an excellent basketball player. The goal of the challenge is not to make it extremely difficult for someone to display their ability - on the contrary every effort wil be expended to make it extrmely easy (whilst removing the potential for cheating).
You example fundamentally misrepresents the JREF challenge. Why would you want to do that?

If you say you have telekinesis they won't ask you to move an unusually heavy object just to make you fail. A piece of paper would do.
We are talking about abilities that are outside known science so even the slightest confirmed exhibition will be of tremendous significance.

And you really need to start reading the challenge applications before you start making incorrect claims about the JREF chalenge.

Nobody would be "laughing at you saying you can't do it" at a claimant - indeed all the actual claimants who actually are tested are treated with respect and are made as comfortable as possible. The last thing the JREF wants is for a claimant to say they could not perform because of the atitude of the testers.

The claims you are making about the JREF test are not fair and just not true.

And remember these forums are not representative of the JREF or their attitude. Just the thoughts and opinions of individual posters from all over the world.
If you actually apply to the challenge you will deal with Kramer who will process your application and the actual testing will be caried out by people who will take the whole thing very seriously.
I honestly recommend you read the challenge application section of the forum.

crimresearch

21st September 2005, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by MoonDragn
Sorry I was replying to ashe's question.

Ahh, my bad, I can see that now.

Psiload

21st September 2005, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by MoonDragn
It sure is worth testing out. Is it really all in my mind? Everytime I have felt a cold spot on someone and asked them, it was always confirmed by the other person as relating to some injury either in the present or the past. ***snip***

What kind of 'injury' are we talking about?

I honestly can't think of a single part of my body that hasn't been subjected to some sort of "injury" in the past. I've bonked my head, been poked in the eye, twisted my neck, wrenched my shoulder, threw out my back, been punched in the gut, fell flat on my ass, been kicked in my ding ding, skinned my knee, barked my shin, stubbed my toes, etc... And I doubt I've lived a much rougher life than most others.

Heck... I think the real trick would be finding a spot on someone's body that hadn't been injured at one time or another.

MoonDragn

21st September 2005, 11:56 AM

Ashles, you're arguing about semantics of what I said, you know what I meant. If you didn't, then pardon my bad english. I have always had good english. Oh pardon me, was that another statement of fact on my part?

I was not really refering to the challenge exactly, just that people here seem to judge first and ask questions later. What are the agreed to terms? If I was asked to sink 75 baskets, and negotiated to 10, is that still a valid ability? Is it chance then? Like the above poster said, theres pure chance that that every part of the body has been hurt sometimes in the past. Gee I guess that disqualifies my ability then doesn't it?

As you can see, its not just the psychics that have excuses. You can't start putting limits on something you know nothing about, and then decide that is a valid test. I already admited I know nothing about human healing rate, therefore my ability could be natural. I am sure most of you have had your blood colagulate while someone was taking a blood test. I've done that too.

ernon

21st September 2005, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by MoonDragn
Yes Reiki II was supposed to be at a distance. I am actually qualified for Reiki II as well but I would never charge anybody for it..

My personal take on Reiki? Its alot of hoodoo mixed with something that might work close up. I have always been able to heal myself faster than normal by putting my hands on a wound, but I've never believed you could heal at a distance.

I've have gone to Reiki circles to experience first hand what its like from other people and some people you can really feel the energy off of them and some nothing at all.

There is of course no scientific proof whatsoever but usually when I put my hands over someone I can sense "cold spots" which relate almost directly to something wrong with their body.

As for the story with your mom, you're not supposed to do Reiki on anyone without their permission. I'm sorry you feel that way about it but that lady was just sharing her belief. Real or not, it was just a belief.

You are pretty brave to admit on this forum that you hold any beliefs. I have noticed quite a lot of posters here seem to think the work skeptic is synonomous with cynic. I thought skeptic meant 'doubter' and the concept of doubt contains the possibility that something just needs to be proved. I can see no reason why you were personally attacked for what you said above. I didn't see you "pushing your beliefs" off on anyone. Discussion afterall does require one to state a position.

That being said, move over and let me out on that limb with you. I am level III (I didn't pay a penny for any of my levels and I have never charged for a 'treatment') and I still consider myself a skeptic. My degree is in Theology, with a focus on the Summarian writings. Theology is a field overly ripe with woos but I am no longer religious. My studies knocked that right out of me. :)

In the past 30 years I have kept an open mind and studied quite a few areas of 'metaphysics and parapsycology'. My premisis being that these beliefs must have sprung from something, either a misinterpretation of some natural process or maybe there was something actually going on. Having a good understaning of science, it wasn't hard to strip away the BS and fluff and get down to the core . I have been sorely disappointed, mostly there is nothing there.

My take is there are three kinds of people in these fields, genuine seekers looking at possibilities (ie they might be giants), people who don't know enough about anything and so are taken in by everything and those of the Sylvia Brown ilk who are out to get what they can for themselves at the expense of others, especially those in the second group.

I agree that Reiki is filled with woos, just like every other 'new age' philosophy, how could it be different? As soon as one mentions the word "energy", the charlatans rush out of the woodwork. But I didn't get into it for the philosophy or to make money, but because I have serious pain issues from traumatic injuries suffered in the past and if there was a way to cope without the drugs I was interested. I started investigating Reiki because it does not contain a belief in a diety and those receiving treatment do not have to believe it will work. Both of those things go against everything I have seen and learned in regards to faith healing and therapeutic touch.

In Reiki, I have seen no magical cures, no instantaneous healings that the woo crowd claims for Reiki. What I have found is I can reduce or remove pain from myself and others. I am not trying to get anyone else to believe this, so if anyone reading this is offended by my merely mentioning my opinion, go Rule 8 yourself.

I am still investigating Reiki, so I have yet to arrive at a final conclusion. It does *seem* that something is there, but I am not prepared to declare what that might be or if in fact it is not still just an artifact of the human mind that science hasn't discovered yet.

If I am convinced of the genuineness of Reiki, then I will most certainly apply for the challange. I would be a fool not to, since I think the Reiki challange is just to produce the heat. Most, but not all, people I have sent the 'energy' to have felt it. But it is significant to me that not all people have felt it. I wonder why. Reiki says it is because of free will, they didn't want to accept the energy, but that answers seems just a little convenient to me, so I continue to experiment.

A true skeptic needs to be open to the possibility that there may be things beyond the scope of their present knowledge, but at the same time, man has a brain for a good reason and I intend to use mine to the best of my ability. :)

Badger

30th September 2005, 05:17 PM

Real or not, it was just a belief.

I sure could use that "start another thread" button rather than derailing this thread, but here goes anyway:

This statement really grates on me. To me, it's an excuse to be stupid or ignorant. It seems to be an excuse to absolve oneself of responsibility.

You might as well say "It's too hard to think. I just want to stumble through life like a fool, following whatever whim strikes my fancy, no matter who it affects."

MoonDragn

3rd October 2005, 01:01 PM

Bronze Dog

3rd October 2005, 01:46 PM

I have posted a similar viewpoint in the atheist thread but the point is this : When it is a belief, its something you want to believe to be true whether or not it is true is irrelevant. Just like people who want to believe in god.

To say it is stupid or ignorant is to say that all people who believe in God are stupid and ignorant.

Do people who believe in god " stumble through life like a fool, following whatever whim strikes my fancy, no matter who it affects."

Your generalizations really are not very effective nor logical.
Your straw man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) isn't very effective or logical either. (Assuming I've read Badger's post correctly.)

"It's just my opinion" or "It's just my belief" is an implied statement that you're abandoning science and logic. Whether Reiki works or not is something in the realm of fact vs. fiction. It is not a matter of opinion. We find the answer by scientific methods, not by unsubstantiated assertions.

MoonDragn

3rd October 2005, 02:00 PM

Bronze Dog

3rd October 2005, 02:10 PM

Yes your assessment is correct if I wanted to prove that reiki existed.

However I posted an opinion in this post and was jumped all over for stating an opinion about a personal belief.

Think what it would be like if you said that you believed in god and someone jumped on your reasons for believing in god. Its none of their business.

Just like my personal beliefs has no room for discussion in this thread. I merely pointed out my personal beliefs and stated the possibilities. I was trying to be objective but I find people love to jump to conclusions in this forum without bothering with the context in which a statement was made.
"Jumped on your reasons"... interesting way to say "criticize". Look at the forum you're on. This is a skeptic forum. Skeptics criticize bad logic when it shows up. It's called "argument" and "discussion." If you can't handle that, why are you posting?

If you post something online in a public forum, it's everyone's business.

Yes, sometimes I miss out on context, but fallacious arguments are still fallacious arguments.

c4ts

3rd October 2005, 02:12 PM

The ball is red.

MOONDRAGON: In my opinion, the ball is yellow. It is my personal belief.

MoonDragn

3rd October 2005, 02:46 PM

So it is ok for me to criticize your religion then? Because personally I think the whole bible was made up and that for even an inaccurate account of history it is full of fallacies.

Bronze Dog

3rd October 2005, 02:48 PM

So it is ok for me to criticize your religion then?
Of course.

c4ts

3rd October 2005, 03:12 PM

So it is ok for me to criticize your religion then? Because personally I think the whole bible was made up and that for even an inaccurate account of history it is full of fallacies.

You're finally starting to get it. Beliefs and opinions can and will be questioned, because they are not facts.

ernon

3rd October 2005, 03:38 PM

Your straw man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) isn't very effective or logical either. (Assuming I've read Badger's post correctly.)

"It's just my opinion" or "It's just my belief" is an implied statement that you're abandoning science and logic. Whether Reiki works or not is something in the realm of fact vs. fiction. It is not a matter of opinion. We find the answer by scientific methods, not by unsubstantiated assertions.

I have to agree with BronzeDog, either Reiki works or it doesn't. There is no component of belief to Reiki, at least not in the form descended from Dr. Usui, regardless of what crap people try to associate with it.

MoonDragn,
Don't get upset, just remember when you post here not all are skeptics, quite a few individuals are full blown cynics; though I am not accusing anyone specific of being a cynic.

How about visiting the original topic again...remote Reiki. :)

I have not had a convincing demonstration of this part of Reiki. I tried it on three people. One claimed he felt it and his condition did improve; two others said they didn't feel it, one of them improved and the other didn't. I realize three people does not a scientific group make, I just haven't had the time or opportunity to experiment with this long distance aspect any other times, though I did have an opportunity this weekend for a good pain removal experiment.

I had the first sitting for a detailed tattoo I'm getting on my upper arm (shoulder to elbow). I used Reiki during the session and was able to stay completely calm and relaxed throughout the 2 1/2 hours it took to do the outline (still have five hours of chair time left). The artist commented at end that he was surprised my arm had remained perfectly relaxed throughout; especially since this is my first tattoo and I have no experience with the pain involved. I also used Reiki afterwards to speed healing. It has not hurt, even one bit since the session finished, there is very little redness and no swelling. During the session, it hurt, but not terribly bad and I was able to distance myself from the pain enough to laugh at the DVD I was watching while he worked.

Friends who have tattoos are amazed there is almost no redness and no soreness, they ALL experienced those things. They couldn't even comfortably touch their tattoo for a couple of days afterwards, I could and did touch mine immediately afterwards; no pain and still none two days later. It looks completely healed, no scabbing even, but it is still early so I'll give it a week to see if scabbing appears.

I am not drawing any conclusions yet, but it just adds to my list of anecdotal evidence (yes I know that's what my personal experiences are) that point to something really going on in Reiki. So far I have had successes in relieving: pain of arthritis, menstrual cramps, back aches, strained muscles, a strained tendon and various first and second degree burns. (I have first aid training so I did properly treat the second degree burn first and then attempt pain removal). I don't go looking for these things, the people around me have had them and asked me to see if I could make them feel better. I have always said, "Well lets see, but I'm not promising anything." I have had no 'failures' when dealing with people face to face, though there has been differing time intervals between 'treatment' and their feeling 'healed' ranging from a minute to overnight.

I can't say with any certainty exactly WHAT is happening, but if I continue to get the positive results that I have been getting, up close and personal, then I will continue to help those that ask me.

The referee is still out on the distance aspect. One out of three is not convincing, even though the one that was successful was a friend with pretty severe pain in healing from a stomach bypass operation. The other 'success' didn't feel anything happening so she could have just felt better on her own and Reiki had nothing to do with it. Even my friend who swears I relieved his surgery pain, might have simply felt better in the morning on his own.

I would love to find a definitive answer as to what I am experiencing. Whether it is the Reiki or not, something appears to be happening beyond coincidence and random chance.

Scott

MoonDragn

4th October 2005, 07:27 AM

I also happen to believe some of the skeptics here are complete morons. People who hide behind these technical terms of logic in a failed attempt to feel superior. Most probably have no control or direction in their life and troll these boards looking for something to do. When something is neither proven or disproven it should be intellectually processed and examined closely to see what is or is not there. Obviously this simple process has been uniquely overlooked by most of the skeptics as they jump straight from oh other people say it doesn't work therefore it doesn't work. How about YOU try it personally sometimes and formulate a objective opinion instead of blowing smoke out of your rears?

Angry? I'm not at all angry. My beliefs are firmly rooted and unless I see concrete proof disproving my beliefs I keep my mind open. I live a spiritual and emotionally balanced life and am never unhappy. I think most of you WISH you could be like me.

Bronze Dog

4th October 2005, 07:39 AM

I also happen to believe some of the skeptics here are complete morons. People who hide behind these technical terms of logic in a failed attempt to feel superior.
I use those terms because I can't think of any other way of expressing such simple concepts without insulting my opponent's intelligence.

Example: "Ad Homenim" could also be described as "Calling Bobby a doodie-head doesn't let you win the argument."

Most probably have no control or direction in their life and troll these boards looking for something to do.
Speaking of ad homenim...

When something is neither proven or disproven it should be intellectually processed and examined closely to see what is or is not there.
One of the key reasons we have the Randi Challenge. If it's there, we can test for it. Unfortunately, believers are seldom interested in testing.

Obviously this simple process has been uniquely overlooked by most of the skeptics as they jump straight from oh other people say it doesn't work therefore it doesn't work.
You haven't read anything we've said, have you? It's the absence of evidence that makes us doubt. We're open to evidence, but believers aren't interested in providing any.

How about YOU try it personally sometimes and formulate a objective opinion instead of blowing smoke out of your rears?
An unblinded, uncontrolled study of infinitesimal size (1 subject)? Not convincing, even if it seems to work.

I have this terrible feeling of deja vu...

My beliefs are firmly rooted and unless I see concrete proof disproving my beliefs I keep my mind open.
You're doing it the wrong way: You don't believe in something until you have evidence. Otherwise you're likely going to rationalize any failure of your beliefs by saying things like "Oh, Reiki doesn't work under a full moon. It doesn't work around large amounts of metal. It doesn't work when the person resists." We're very open minded: We only need one replicable incident of it working. If you assume it works beforehand, you'd need us to perform the impossible by disproving every instance where it appeared to work.

I live a spiritual and emotionally balanced life and am never unhappy. I think most of you WISH you could be like me.
I'd rather be happy than right... and thankfully, it seems I'm often both.

MoonDragn

4th October 2005, 07:57 AM

You assume that you are right, without proof. Don't do it what way? Who made up the rules on belief? Something is happening, I experienced something unusual therefore I have belief in it. If you doubt it, then prove it to yourself. Don't ask me to prove it for you. It is up to you to prove or disprove your doubt because it has nothing to do with me. I'm not the one that is making claims that I can perform this ability like a lightswitch turning it on or off.

ad homenim? Alot of you seem to be using it alot to insult people that post here. Like pot calling the kettle black, you're doing the very things you accuse other people of. I learned those logic terms like back in high school. Yes I can go look them up but i have no real desire to.

As for the Randi challenge. Yes thats what they are here for, to prove or disprove something. If you would like someone to prove that reiki works, go find a reiki practitioner who will agree to the test. I never claimed what I did was reiki, therefore, I disqualify for your test period.

If you did not get that with all the various posts I've put here. Then not only can't you understand english, you can't read either. Oops did I use Ad homenim again?

Bronze Dog

4th October 2005, 08:10 AM

Like all assumptions, mine is tenative. That's how science works. Believers have given me no evidence to challenge that assumption. We've given them opportunity after opportunity, and they've always failed to take advantage of it.

ad homenim? Alot of you seem to be using it alot to insult people that post here. Like pot calling the kettle black, you're doing the very things you accuse other people of. I learned those logic terms like back in high school. Yes I can go look them up but i have no real desire to.
So, pointing out a fowl play is fowl play?

As for the Randi challenge. Yes thats what they are here for, to prove or disprove something. If you would like someone to prove that reiki works, go find a reiki practitioner who will agree to the test.
Well, we've been trying. Until they pass, or present other evidence worthy of consideration, we're justified in not believing.

If you did not get that with all the various posts I've put here. Then not only can't you understand english, you can't read either. Oops did I use Ad homenim again?
Your position on Reiki isn't relevant. You're still fallacious.

dogjones

4th October 2005, 08:37 AM

"So, pointing out a fowl play is fowl play?"

You're just being chicken.

Bronze Dog

4th October 2005, 08:42 AM

Oops. Foul play. I'll go bap myself with a rolled-up newspaper, now.

casebro

4th October 2005, 10:32 AM

, with much trimming:
So far I have had successes in relieving: pain of arthritis, menstrual cramps, back aches, strained muscles, a strained tendon and various first and second degree burns..

I can't say with any certainty exactly WHAT is happening, but if I continue to get the positive results that I have been getting, up close and personal, then I will continue to help those that ask me.

Scott

All of these minor pains are exactly what is most susceptible to Placebo or self-hypnosis. Self-hypnosis requires concentration. If some concept of "energy flow" helps you to concentrate your own bio-feedback, wouldn't the biofeedback without the WOO be more direct? Sort of like enhancing the placebo effect without needing sugar pills?

I know some of you feel self-hypnosis is WOO itself. But I am a believer, and have used it for pain relief as well as memory improvement ( a little relaxation and I could remember the combination to a safe that I hadn't opened in 6 years, couldn't open it 20 minutes earlier, neither could my brother). Didn't Randi use it to relax while locked in an airtight coffin for a couple hours?

Personally, I'd rather think that my own "healing powers" come from within ME, not from some metaphysical allusion to a mythical "greater power".

ernon

4th October 2005, 11:42 AM

All of these minor pains are exactly what is most susceptible to Placebo or self-hypnosis. Self-hypnosis requires concentration. If some concept of "energy flow" helps you to concentrate your own bio-feedback, wouldn't the biofeedback without the WOO be more direct? Sort of like enhancing the placebo effect without needing sugar pills?

I know some of you feel self-hypnosis is WOO itself. But I am a believer, and have used it for pain relief as well as memory improvement ( a little relaxation and I could remember the combination to a safe that I hadn't opened in 6 years, couldn't open it 20 minutes earlier, neither could my brother). Didn't Randi use it to relax while locked in an airtight coffin for a couple hours?

Personally, I'd rather think that my own "healing powers" come from within ME, not from some metaphysical allusion to a mythical "greater power".

Good points, however, I am familiar with self-hypnosis and this is different. Self hypnosis requires some concentration and inner focus, Reiki does not. I can talk, watch a movie, anything, while doing Reiki, my activity level does not effect it. The same can not be said of self-hypnosis.

I do believe the mind can accelerate the bodies natural healing processes and the mind can control how the body reacts to certain stimuli. Anyone can do this and it's not an 'ability' or WOO, it's just takes a bit of practice. In my experience Reiki is different from this too.

One other point, I have not stated I believe Reiki is coming from "a mythical greater power". Reiki does not include a belief in God and I am not a religious person (aside from my belief in the FSM- RAmen). I don't know what Reiki is, except something that so far has worked quite well for me.

I agree with your statement about minor pains, which is why I am still keeping an open mind while I experiment. I am very aware of the placebo effect, especially on minor aches and pains. However, I have not limited my experiments to minor pains.

Orthopedic surgery is usually very painful and requires strong pain relievers afterwards. I can only compare three different major surgeries I have had. The last one, (thumb fused) was particularly painful and caused me a lot of distress even when I was fully 'doped up', a condition that is not conducive to working. Since I could not afford to take months off to recuperate, a friend at work (who I didn't know was a level 4 Reiki Master) offered to give me a treatment. It greatly reduced the pain; enough that I felt a great weight had been lifted from my shoulders and I could relax. I don't know how many of you have been at that pain level before, but I would have gladly cut the thumb off, if it would have stopped the pain.

That was my intro to Reiki. I inquired and she offered to teach me so I could do it myself. Having an open, experimental mind, I figured I had nothing to loose but the pain and that has been the case with me. I was able to manage my pain successfully and fully eliminate any of the pain killers. For me that was huge! The other surgeries almost got me hooked on Percodan.

I am very interested in what is happening with Reiki, since there seems to be some sort of effect happening. If it turns out it's just an ability to reliably induce the placebo effect in people it would still be useful as a substitute for Tylenol. :)

Scott

casebro

4th October 2005, 01:54 PM

Good points, however, I am familiar with self-hypnosis and this is different. Self hypnosis requires some concentration and inner focus, Reiki does not. I can talk, watch a movie, anything, while doing Reiki, my activity level does not effect it. The same can not be said of self-hypnosis.

(snip)
Scott

So, how is Reiki different from SH? Aside from getting better/faster with practise? Subjects given placebos don't need any concentration either...they just get better. Since biofeedback takes place at a subconscious level anyhow, it won't matter how the suggestion is implanted- Remote Reiki ought to work as well as Near Reiki, ,as well as laying-on-of-the-hands, which ought to work as well as burning bees-wax candles in a closet, all the same as "watch-the-watch"....

I said "mythical greater power", I was comparing my 'inner' healing power to an 'outside' source, like your Reiki So, tell me how you think 'your' Reiki works? Where does the mythical energy come from? What do you actually accomplish different from SH?

ernon

4th October 2005, 03:26 PM

I said "mythical greater power", I was comparing my 'inner' healing power to an 'outside' source, like your Reiki So, tell me how you think 'your' Reiki works? Where does the mythical energy come from? What do you actually accomplish different from SH?

Unlike you, I have not yet reached the conclusion that Reiki comes from an 'outside source'.

Dr. Usui's Reiki, (as opposed to mine), works very well for me as far as pain removal goes. As to the mechanism it does this by, I have no idea and am open to serious suggestions. Have any besides placebo effect, self-hypnosis or self-delusion? :)

I don't believe in mythical energy so I can't answer that one. I think I have already stated I don't know what is going on with Reiki, which is why I continue to experiment with it; I would like to find out. I can directly experience the effects. I was brought up believing that all effects must have logical causes. I am searching for the logical cause. Woo doesn't do it for me.

What do I accomplish? Long term pain relief without taking drugs. Self-hypnosis may work temporarily or in the near term for some people, but for me at least, it was not a viable solution for long term pain management.

BTW, if you think I am here to sell Reiki, you are mistaken. I have no vested interest in Reiki, nothing to sell , no classes to teach and no benefit dervied from inducing people to believe. I have not and will never, make a dime off it. If I was a huckster I would starve.

The subject came up on the board and since I have some direct experience with it, I simply thought I would share what I have found in my experiments; not all of which had favorable outcomes. If I were here to tout Reiki, bringing up the failures is hardly the way to go about it. I am just a curious, long time experimenter looking for logical reasons for the effects I have directly experienced and those of the people I have 'treated'. I can't speak to anyone elses experience with Reiki or to the dogma they may attach to it.

Nex

4th October 2005, 08:01 PM

Gayle

4th October 2005, 09:55 PM

To get back to the opening post of this thread. Library Lady shared that she has been wearing a cervical collar due to a neck injury. A library patron, seeing her plight, offered to send her some remote reiki.

Ernon, or anyone else, can you tell me precisely how remote reiki is prepared and sent? One website talked about sending different colored reiki balloons. How would reiki be put into the balloons and how would the recipient get it out, or would they just let the balloon stay close to them?

This is a serious question. Until I read this thread, I thought reiki was a form of Japanese massage, similar to Swedish massage, to ease the pain of sore muscles. Obviously, I was mistaken.

The idea of remote reiki sounds outlandish to me. I don't understand the concept of sending remote healing at all, unless it's along the same lines as intercessionary prayer or a literalization of sending someone good vibes.

After I have stated that it sounds outlandish to me, I will understand if there is a reluctance to answer my question. However, I would much prefer getting an answer to my questions from someone who is not trying to sell it or make a buck off it. So, I ask it here.

How is remote reiki prepared and sent? Anyone?

Gayle

Bronze Dog

4th October 2005, 09:58 PM

The first image of Reiki I received was on TV: It was like theraputic touch, minus the actual touch. No massage involved, except to possibly your chakra, er, aura... whatever.

Physiotherapist

5th October 2005, 03:52 AM

Gayle,

The word Reiki actually means 'universal life force energy'.

When you get to Reiki Level II you are given three symbols that can be used to enhance treatments, one of which is called the Distant Symbol. With the use of the distant symbol, it becomes possible to send Reiki to someone over a distance.

Nex

5th October 2005, 03:54 AM

How is remote reiki prepared and sent? Anyone? I thought it was kind of similar to prayer -- the "sender" just concentrates on the "receiver", supposedly sending a wave of healing-type energy to them.

I could be wrong though, but that was my impression. And reiki practitioners all do it differently, so I don't think my conception of it would apply to all the people who claim to use reiki at a distance.

Physiotherapist

5th October 2005, 04:54 AM

casebro

5th October 2005, 10:25 AM

Nex,

I have just explained the process to you.

Yes, the sender of Reiki does have to concentrate on the person that they are sending to, but they must also use the symbols given to them at level II to be able to do this.

At Reiki one, you are unable to send distant Reiki because you are not taught the symbols to be able to do this.

It is the symbols that create the link.

Other than this, then yes, I am sure there will be some differences in the way that others do this.

This is sounding more WOO all the time.

Sooo, lets try a blinded experiment. We can have a 'local reiki practitioner' stay in touch with a subject's aura for a couple hours, while a 'long distance practitioner' intermittantly 'sends energy'. The LRP should be able to 'sense' the fluctuations in the subject's aura. Begin and end the test with a phone link between practioners, to make sure they can't claim later that "the planets were not aligned" or some such excuse. Compare logs later.

crimresearch

5th October 2005, 10:46 AM

Nex

5th October 2005, 11:28 AM

[...] It is the symbols that create the link. [...] How does an inanimate object or symbol create a link? And what kind of link is it? And how do you test to make sure the link is there and that it is patent?

MoonDragn

5th October 2005, 12:18 PM

The original premise was that doctor whatshisname received his symbols from his meditation on top of that mountain. I've seen these symbols and they are a mishmosh of existing chinese/japanese chars. Personally I don't believe remote reiki works at all and the whole reiki thing as it was originally introduced sounds like a scam to get money. Even as a practioner, to obtain each level requires that one pay a fee for the attunement.

MoonDragn

5th October 2005, 12:55 PM

Your position on Reiki isn't relevant. You're still fallacious.

It is relavant because I was talking about a personal experience. What does that have to do with the price of milk in china?

When you relate something that happened to you, does someone ask you to go take a test? Similarly, I related something that happened to me. Criticize all you want but it was a personal experience that led to a belief. You're perfectly welcome to disagree but don't start calling me names. Thats when I call you names back. Being fallacious is one thing but calling me stupid and ignorant? A stupid or ignorant person would be the one that assumes that given our infinite universe and probabilities, that something would NEVER occur.

Can you say "Skeptic" ?

Bronze Dog

5th October 2005, 01:11 PM

It is relavant because I was talking about a personal experience. What does that have to do with the price of milk in china?

When you relate something that happened to you, does someone ask you to go take a test? Similarly, I related something that happened to me. Criticize all you want but it was a personal experience that led to a belief. You're perfectly welcome to disagree but don't start calling me names. Thats when I call you names back. Being fallacious is one thing but calling me stupid and ignorant? A stupid or ignorant person would be the one that assumes that given our infinite universe and probabilities, that something would NEVER occur.

Can you say "Skeptic" ?
Can you say "straw man? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)"

MoonDragn

5th October 2005, 01:41 PM

My you just sidestepped my question didn't you? Isn't it convient that everytime a question gets asked, a logic term from wikopedia gets quoted?

Bronze Dog

5th October 2005, 01:47 PM

It's easier to link to the wikipedia entry on "Straw man" than to call you a bold-faced liar. I never called you stupid. I never called you ignorant. I never said Reiki was impossible. I'm willing to be convinced by double-blind control studies.

Bronze Dog

5th October 2005, 01:57 PM

And since we're talking about "sidestepping" questions:

When did you stop beating your wife? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma) Don't "sidestep" this one!

ernon

5th October 2005, 02:25 PM

Even as a practioner, to obtain each level requires that one pay a fee for the attunement.

That would depend on your teacher. I have never paid a penny for any of my levels.

(editied to correct spelling)

ernon

5th October 2005, 02:57 PM

This is sounding more WOO all the time.

Sooo, lets try a blinded experiment. We can have a 'local reiki practitioner' stay in touch with a subject's aura for a couple hours, while a 'long distance practitioner' intermittantly 'sends energy'. The LRP should be able to 'sense' the fluctuations in the subject's aura. Begin and end the test with a phone link between practioners, to make sure they can't claim later that "the planets were not aligned" or some such excuse. Compare logs later.

I don't find the word 'aura' in any of my Reiki literature or references to the concept as you are using it. Planets also don't figure into it. The best thought picture I could come up with for what Remote Reiki is supposed to be is to compare it to an email. It is sent to you and you read it when you like. You can re-read it as often as you wish or not.

Maybe the problem with looking at Reiki from a rational point of view is because people have become WOO Weary. One could hardly blame anyone that did, especially when one hears the same meaningless buzz words used and misused over and over again by the believe anything crowd.

There is a lot of new age stuff being shoveled into Reiki by people who think adding a plethora of these buzzwords explains what is happening. They have no science background or they would know they are spouting garbage. Or more likely, they have something to sell to the New Agers and must insert the proper verbage to attract them. In my opinion they are all snake-oil salesmen.

ernon

5th October 2005, 04:48 PM

I'm really tired right now, but I'll throw my 2 cents in.

I have chronic neuropathic pain in my abdomen and the right side of my ribcage, stemming from surgery I had a year and some months ago. At times it's excruciating. Mostly, though, it's pretty uncomfortable at best. Today's been a good day actually -- it just has a weird "electric-buzz" feeling but no real pain to speak of.

I use self-hypnosis/meditation exclusively for pain management. Since both OTC and Rx narcotic pain relievers do very little for neuropathic pain, I've devised a way to cope with the discomfort while still being able to run errands, go to classes, etc. Never have I tried reiki for this, or any other type of "energy healing." No need.

Ernon, I suspect you may be experiencing placebo or maybe the effect of self-hypnosis. Self-hypnosis really doesn't require a whole helluva lot of concentration, so I think perhaps that's what you're really doing.

Like I said, that's just my 2 cents. Now, it's my bedtime. G'night! :cool:

I'm sorry you also have chronic pain. I have had it for 23 years now. Early on I was taught the techniques of meditation/self-hypnosis and used them to good effect for many years. I have never heard of the placebo effect working on your condition or mine, so I doubt that is what is happening to me.

You may be right about the self-hypnosis and I have thought about that as a possible answer; since I have been doing it for so long it is very easy for me to 'drop' into a medatative state. However that would not explain why the Reiki effect is felt by others when I send it.

I have done a couple of my own non-scientific experiments. Like putting my hands on someone but not sending Reiki and asking them if they felt it or putting my hands on them and asking them to tell me when (if ever) they felt it start. In the first cases, they felt it when I sent it and didn't when I did not. In the second experiment they felt it the moment I started to send it and not before. In all cases I made sure to be standing or seated behind the person so they could not see me and pick up any visual clues as to what I was doing or not doing.

The other day a co-worker asked me to relieve a bad headache she had. After sending the Reiki, but before her headache went away she commented (unsolicited) to another co-worker "That is so weird the way you can feel the intense heat from his hands." The co-worker, replied "You should feel Xxxxx's heat!" (Xxxx is my teacher) About 3 minutes later, she noticed her head didn't hurt any more.

I'll be the first person to say that it is entirely probable that her thinking that I could heal her, was what actually healed her (placebo effect). But at the same time, I have had too many anecdotal experiences just like this and others even more compelling, to dismiss it offhand as nothing more than placebo or projected hypnosis. I'll say again, I don't know what is happening. I continue to experiment because it is interesting and because it manages my pain effectivly. I will add, however, that it has not yet "healed" me in that I still have pain, managed though it may be.

casebro

6th October 2005, 07:25 AM

Ernon, how about starting a log of your Reiki "treatments"? You seem to be some skeptical, maybe you can learn your self something . Not to mention the placebo enhancement that your subjects will get when they see you write their names in a little book. Leave room next to their names for a feedback rating. 1-5? Placebo may help up to 60% in some studies, see how your skills compare. But try to be honest, write down every subject so you don't 'forget' your failures. And try not to pick and choose your subjects- you'l have to 'treat' broken bones, ulcers, cancer as well as tension headaches. Make notes in your log for conventional treatments too- you can't get full credit for a cure if the patient is taking medicine too. Best test would be a cancer patient that hasn't started chemo/radiation yet. And also don't take credit for the natural healing process- bones heal in a couple weeks, colds last seven days, headaches go away in a couple hours anyhow, cancer has spontaneous remissions too, you can't take credit for those either. Hmmmm...doesn't seem like I left you much to take credit for???

ernon

6th October 2005, 11:17 AM

Ernon, how about starting a log of your Reiki "treatments"? You seem to be some skeptical, maybe you can learn your self something. <snip> Hmmmm...doesn't seem like I left you much to take credit for???

LOL, I don't want credit. :)
I like the idea of a log book but if I did that, no one would see it for exactly reason you stated: seeing it would influence them and that would taint my experiments.

There are a couple of other problems with your proposition though. I would not in good conscious offer someone more hope than I know I could deliver. I can take minor pain away from myself, so if someone asks me to do that for them I would. However, Reiki has not cured me of anything, so I can not assume it would cure anyone else. To me there is a huge difference between pain relief and curing something. I would first need to see evidence of ‘miraculous cures’ on myself before I would hold it out as hope for another person. My oldest son broke a toe and I gave him a treatment. It didn’t heal overnight ;), or even particularly quickly, but he said the pain the first day was significantly less after the treatment and throughout the healing process.

My last surgery was to fuse a bone in my thumb to one in my wrist, very painful. Reiki has been helpful in pain control, but has not ‘cured’ me. I am not complaining, pain relief is wonderful as anyone with chronic pain knows, but permanently healing it would be the proof I would need. It has already been too long since the surgery (2 years) to claim any miraculous healing at this point even if it happened today. What I will claim and my Doctor will back up, is that I went through the stages of healing this type of ‘injury’ faster than he normally experiences with other patients, with an important caveat; most people who have this surgery are significantly older than I am by at least 20 years. My body would naturally heal faster than theirs. That was my third surgery (all unrelated) so I know about how fast I normally heal. It did appear that I healed faster with the last surgery (the only one I had the opportunity to try Reiki on), but that is of course a very subjective conclusion.

IF Reiki can be shown to be an effective pain control mechanism, that is good enough for it to have value in IMHO, it doesn’t need to cure. Unfortunately, what I see in Reiki is people thinking they can take a weekend course, learn the woo words, hang out a shingle making outrageous claims and start charging for ‘healing’; it is all so much disingenuous bullpucky, it angers me.

I have theories as to why I am having success where others are not, but it goes to the heart of their training (or lack thereof) and attitudes. In Reiki one really has to learn not to do anything, not to try to control or direct anything. It is much harder than it sounds. Years of meditation taught me how to clear my mind of distractions, so maybe I have a leg up on others. When the practitioners ego gets involved, Reiki doesn’t flow. I know this last paragraph sounds VERY Woo, but I can not find non-woo abused words to describe what I have experienced directly.

I am a level three Reiki Master, one who has been ‘attuned’ with the fourth symbol, the Master Symbol. I went the long route in my studies, not the weekend seminar crap. It took me two years to get here and I had a 30 year head start with semi-related earlier studies. Even so, I haven’t bought into all the things Reiki is supposed to be able do since I haven’t seen the claims demonstrated. That is not to say that I won’t, just that I haven’t to date. And I feel there are a lot of claims being made that have nothing to do with what Reiki could conceivably accomplish.

I don't believe in magic, so whatever is happening will have a scientific explaination be it an undiscovered ability of the mind or a strictly placebo effect.

MoonDragn

6th October 2005, 11:20 AM

That would depend on your teacher. I have never paid a penny for any of my levels.

(editied to correct spelling)

Then you're not an "official" Reiki practioner. Apparently that was one of their requirements. That you had to PAY for your attunements. Kind of like a karma concept. Give something to get something back etc.

fishbait

6th October 2005, 11:36 AM

Then you're not an "official" Reiki practioner. Apparently that was one of their requirements. That you had to PAY for your attunements. Kind of like a karma concept. Give something to get something back etc.Let me see if I have this straight: You are shown a secret symbol of some sort and this enables you to heal people near and far but if you don't pay for the secret symbol it won't work? Is that the deal?

MoonDragn

6th October 2005, 11:54 AM

Yup thats the scam. Traditionally level 1 was around 50-150 bucks, I forget how much level 2 was but level 3 was on the order of 10k... If you weren't paying that much, then you weren't "officially" attuned. As for the symbols. Those were supposed to be the basic symbols. Someone apparently "channeled" more of em. Now you see why I don't particularly agree with everything taught in Reiki

Bronze Dog

6th October 2005, 12:06 PM

Have you stopped beating your wife, yet, MoonDragn? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma) Don't "sidestep" this question.

ernon

6th October 2005, 12:06 PM

Then you're not an "official" Reiki practioner. Apparently that was one of their requirements. That you had to PAY for your attunements. Kind of like a karma concept. Give something to get something back etc.

Untrue, I am "official". There is no requirement for the of payment of money. I think you may be talking about the reason given by some teachers FOR charging money. It's the old "you won't value what you don't pay for" concept and it does hold some validity as a general concept applied to how most people afix value to something, but has nothing to do with Reiki.

It is strictly between the teacher and the student if payment is required and what form that payment might take. In my case, my teacher said my having pain relief was her payment.

ernon

6th October 2005, 12:52 PM

Let me see if I have this straight: You are shown a secret symbol of some sort and this enables you to heal people near and far but if you don't pay for the secret symbol it won't work? Is that the deal?

Yup thats the scam. Traditionally level 1 was around 50-150 bucks, I forget how much level 2 was but level 3 was on the order of 10k... If you weren't paying that much, then you weren't "officially" attuned. As for the symbols. Those were supposed to be the basic symbols. Someone apparently "channeled" more of em. Now you see why I don't particularly agree with everything taught in Reiki

If that has been your experince with Reiki practioners, I can see why you feel the way you do. The statements are not correct as far as Reiki is concerned but I don't doubt they were said by someone looking to make money.

In Usui Reiki, one is 'attuned' by a Master Teacher (level 4), who uses the original symbols to activate each level in the person. You can find the symbols on the web, they are no longer secret. The original four symbols are the only ones used in Usui Reiki, not the additions by new agers. Personally, I have seen the new ones and what they are supposed to do and I think they are cr*p, BS made up by Woos who didn't understand the original concept to begin with and need something extra to justify the money they are charging. If I believed in Hell, I would wish for a special corner just for them.

Here is my best explaination of the levels. Necessity will require I use words that some will take issue with as being WOO loaded. It can't be helped.
The first level symbol is basic healing energy. Level one can practice on themselves and others they can physically touch. The Second level adds the symbol for the ability to heal at a distance (this is one of the claims I am trying to confirm but have not yet had success) and a third symbol used for emotional healing. Level three learns one symbol, the Master Symbol which enhances the power of the others and is used as a meditation focus to increase ones ability to use the Reiki energy.

Each level needs to be activated by a Master's attunement, but there is no requirement for the payment of anything. As I understand it, originally Dr.Usui's widow is the one who founded the first families and the high Master fee was to keep out those not serious about the study required to attain the level. I personally think that attitude is BS and elitist, as does my teacher. Once you are a level four Master Teacher, you can do what you like. There is no dogma to follow and no bylaws to consider, hence my being at level three without paying money.

Unfortunately, I have found most of the Reiki practioners I have met to be charlitans who do not understand what it is supposed to be or how it is supposed to be used. I have found few, if any, who have put in the time required to study each level and practice it to a modicum of proficiency. They pay their money, take a short course, think they have it down and proudly proclaim they have added Reiki to their Crystal therapy and aura manipulation services. If I had run into these types when I was first exposed to Reiki, I would have left laughing instead of finding something that is interesting enough to devote my time to experimentation and evaluation.

I am not sorry I have put the time into studying this. I regularly use it to sucessfuly control chronic pain issues I have. If I get no further confirmation than that, it's been worth my time. It would be a wonderful bonus if it turns out I can reliably heal at a distance, but my track record so far is one out of three, so I can't claim any success there yet. :)

(edited because I kan't spelll :)

fishbait

6th October 2005, 01:04 PM

In Usui Reiki, one is 'attuned' by a Master Teacher (level 4), who uses the original symbols to activate each level in the person. What exactly does the master do to "activate each level"? Is it some sort of secret handshake or incantation? Inquiring minds want to know.

MoonDragn

6th October 2005, 02:02 PM

Ernon apparently you are right. I looked it up and it was one of his original students that started charging the rediculous amounts for attunement. It also apparently wasn't necessary to charge the money.

Heres the link I found the info in which contradicted what my reiki teacher had said.

http://www.reiki.org/reikinews/reikin14.html

Fishbait, Reiki practitioners give you an attunement similar to unblocking a pathway in your brain to allow you to channel this "Reiki" energy. Not really sure what it does or supposedly does, but after the attunement you are supposed to be able to sense illness and cure people. I have had similar experiences like Ernon in mostly relieving pain, muscle ache etc, but I think I was always able to do this before I learned about Reiki and had the attunements.

ernon

6th October 2005, 02:48 PM

What exactly does the master do to "activate each level"? Is it some sort of secret handshake or incantation? Inquiring minds want to know.

It's very much like a Reiki treatment, but with the Master 'imprinting' the symbols on you. She spent most of my attunements standing behind me with me seated in front, so I didn't have the opportunity to see what she was doing, but it involves using the Master Symbol.

Truth be told, I need to learn the full answer to your question to move up to the last level. I need to 'attune' a student through the levels to become level 4. I haven't taken the time to learn that next step yet, I'm still working on using the Master Symbol to get the distance one to work. ;)

The only secret handshake I know is the one for the Society of American Magicians, of which I have been a member for 18 years. I gave it to David Copperfield in the autograph line after a show. He returned it and spent a couple of minutes talking to me. It was very cool. :)

ernon

6th October 2005, 03:07 PM

Ernon apparently you are right. I looked it up and it was one of his original students that started charging the rediculous amounts for attunement. It also apparently wasn't necessary to charge the money.

Heres the link I found the info in which contradicted what my reiki teacher had said.

http://www.reiki.org/reikinews/reikin14.html

I think you could ask 10 Reiki practioners and 9 would give wrong answers to basic questions. Even I only get partial credit, I thought it was his widow. :)

The link you provided is good. In his explainations you can see there are a lot of variations of Reiki being taught. To find a teacher still teaching only the Usui 'core' is difficult. They all change it to fit their understanding. For me, less is more. I simply discarded those portions of the teachings that to me were obviously added at a later time; you can usually tell by the choice of the words used. The basic idea is simple. I see no need to complicate it or load it up with new age verbs and circular explanations going no where.

fishbait

6th October 2005, 03:07 PM

Fishbait, Reiki practitioners give you an attunement similar to unblocking a pathway in your brain to allow you to channel this "Reiki" energy. This tells me absolutly nothing. How is this "unblocking a pathway in your brain" done? What does the "master" do specifically? Is it like plumber snaking out a blocked pipe with a tool? I want to know how it is done. Does the master put his hands on your head and squeeze until the pathway pops open? Does he use tools or instruments? Does he light incense and chant? Does he throw clamshells at the rising sun? What does he physically do during the attunement?

Please be specific.

ernon

6th October 2005, 03:22 PM

This tells me absolutly nothing. How is this "unblocking a pathway in your brain" done? What does the "master" do specifically? Is it like plumber snaking out a blocked pipe with a tool? I want to know how it is done. Does the master put his hands on your head and squeeze until the pathway pops open? Does he use tools or instruments? Does he light incense and chant? Does he throw clamshells at the rising sun? What does he physically do during the attunement?

Please be specific.

The Master lays their hands on the top of your head to start. Hopefully there will be no squeezing like a pimple. I hate it when you get brain all over your hands. ;)

There is a set Attunement proceedure, which I gather varies a bit between the different Reiki 'schools', that the Master follows. It involves in part the Master drawing the master symbol with their hands on certain locations, one of them being the top of the head and another being over the heart. They send Reiki while they are doing this. They also imprint the symbols for the level you are being attuned to. They do say something, but I couldn't make it out, it may have just been the names of the symbols being used. The steps are repeated, maybe three times (?). That is what I remember from my attunments. My perception was the 'energy' coming from the Master got more intense with each level and the 'energy' coming from me increased likewise.