What led me to God

[Ruby]

I want to tell this story and hope to get some input on it.

For part of my adult life I was agnostic with an interest in the *occult*. Methods of fortune telling fascinated me. This eventually led me to playing with an ouija board. I was told that I would be communicating with spirits. I was told how to ignore so-called "evil" spirits.

So, I played. The first time I played was with my older brother. Two of us put our fingers tips over a disk on a board with the alphabet written out on it, and the word "good-bye" at the bottom. We were just barely touching the disk, but it seemed to slowly start moving of it's own volition. I knew I was not moving it, and I felt sure my brother not moving it. We supposedly were comunicating with our deceased Grandfather. I won't go into details about that for now. I will say that it seemed my brother was in control of the board....it only answered for him........he had to ask questions in my stead.

When we got through playng, I had a dull headache.

Later on that night, I playd again with a friend. This time, I seemed to be in control. The disc would not move when she asked questions. A good *spirit named "Mara" began to communicate to us. She was to become my own personal "Spirit guide". We played for hours asking all sorts of questions about our future, and getting pleasant things spelled out to us in reply. We finally stopped playing, and I felt SO drained, and my head hurt. It was if I had just gone through a big physically demanding activity.

Back home, in my little world of loneliness and fear, I decided to make my own board out of paper with a paper disk, and all by myself, I began to communicate in the passing days with Mara as if she were a real friend. She seemed so real to me.

I was playing until late one night when "Mara" said she was in some sort of danger as if something was after her. She stopped communicating all of a sudden, and I felt worried. I went to sleep.

When I woke up in the morning, all of a sudden, a clear voice in my head said, "hello Karen, this is Mara, I'm here with you now". I bolted out of bed and could not believe I was hearing a voice. My mind went into complete panic..

Mara began talking with me in a friendly way saying she did not know what had happened either, but felt that if I read the bible it might help. So, I read Psalm 23, which was the only thing in the bible I knew, but she would interrupt everytime I got half way through it, and tell me to start over. It became tormenting so I stopped reading.

She then suggested that we "join". She said it would help if we joined, and would put an end to me hearing her. That idea did not sound right to me. I told her no, but she kept insisting it would help. I adamantly refused. Then all of a sudden her voice changed to a masculine voice, very evil and horrifying. It said it's name was Max, and said he was a demon, and had been a demon the entire time, and had lied to me the entire time about everything. He said he would possess me.

I was far from being a Christian, but fought off this assault with all my will. It felt as if a force came at my being deep within, as if my will was trying to be overcome. I can never forget that feeling. I pushed it back with all my willpower and won.

Unfortunately, it did not stop it from seriously oppressing me by talking to me loudly with every sort of profanity you could imagine. Plus, it constantly kept me in fear that it would possess me. I was a mess and knew I had two choices. One was to be committed, and the other was God. I only knew of the 1st united Pentecostal church that I had visited in the past and so I called.

The pastors wife was home and came out to pray with me. She was very sweet and warm. She prayed over me, and I told her I was definitely wanting to become a Christian. The demon called her names the entire time she prayed.

I was scared and desperate. The 1st United Pentecostal church was/is a very legalistic church org., but I was willing to do anything to get rid of the horrible voice in my head. I gave my life to God for the first time in my life.

I covered up as best I could with my dad, and my son. I did not want my dad to know what was happening to me. I had been living with him since I had been separated and then divorced. My son was only about six at the time.

I went to church the next evening after the pastors wife had visited me. I decided I wanted to be baptized. Surely that would make the demon/voice stop. It didn't.

After the baptism, the demon still attacked me. I gave up make-up, and threw away some *worldly* things, and stopped wearing pants and jewelry. Giving up everything did not help. The demon just kept on and on talking and threatening me with all sorts of things. It was a horrible nightmare. I had to fight day and night.

I was taught about receiving the Holy Spirit baptism and speaking in tongues. The UPC believe it is necessary in order to be saved. I studied Acts and saw it to be something real and that the apostles received, and that it was intended for us all, but it still scared me. Slowly, I began to understand that I would not be taken over, like hynotized or something. So, I did tentatively seek to be filled, but only at prayer meetings where no one paid attention to me. I did not know at the time that this baptism was for *empowerment* and not salvation. A person was saved once they believed......but I was in a church that believed in a four part formula to salvation.

I kept praying and begging God to release me from the *demon*. He kept leading me to scriptures that talked about a division. I thought he was telling me that a division had occured in my mind, but other Christians insisted it was a demon. Plus, the voice itself said it was a demon.

One day at the altar praying I asked God to reveal to me what this voice was.....suddenly it came into my mind that it was *me*. I was so confused. I felt that God was telling me that the voice was me.....but that made little sense at the time.

After eight months of being in the Pentecostal church, and continuing to be oppressed by the demon/voice although it had weakened, I finally received the Holy Spirit baptism on my own volition at the altar. I relaxed and prayed. I could not believe it as I began to speak a language that I had never learned. It was beautiful.

I was totally delivered through the Holy Spirit baptism.
I cannot tell you how incredible it was to have my mind back. To have peace in my head. It was awesome and has been ever since. In fact, I can hardly believe I went through it.

I found out that "Mara" meant bitterness in the bible.

As far as being in the UPC goes, I began to have many questions in my head, but did not dare ask. I wondered why it was ok for female UPC members, not just in our church, but in others I would see at conferences, to have very fancy hairdos decorated with bows and clips, which I did not, and yet I would be considered a backslider if I wore a little make-up and a ring or necklace.

After four years, I could no longer endure all the rules of dress and make-up. I was suffering with depression, and loneliness again. I decided to leave.

I eventually ended up going to an interdenominational church. I found some legalism there too. The church I go to now is also interdenom, and I love it.....no legalism at all.

In time, I questioned what really happened to me concerning the ouija board. Being a skeptic at heart made me question if it had really been a demon at all. That a big deal for me to question since that voice had sounded very male and very evil...and not a part of me at all.

I still don't have all the answers, but I am certain that the ouija board worked due to the ideometer factor. I was subconsciously moving it. That means that "Mara" was some hidden part of myself....and so was "Max". Beyond that, I am unsure what to think. It does seem that God was trying to tell me this same conclusion.

Being *baptized* by the *Holy Spirit* freed me from it regardless of what was really going on. I am sure that if I had chosen Psychiatric help, they would have given me medication to dim or mute that voice. But would I ever have been free? I just don't know that answer. I am glad for the route I chose...despite my misery in the church itself.

Sorry if this was too long.

[Samus]

Originally posted by Ruby
I still don't have all the answers, but I am certain that the ouija board worked due to the ideometer factor. I was subconsciously moving it. That means that "Mara" was some hidden part of myself....and so was "Max". Beyond that, I am unsure what to think. It does seem that God was trying to tell me this same conclusion. How do you know God is not another inner voice? You readily admit that you've convinced yourself of things with the subconscious voices "Mara" and "Max." What makes the "God" voice different? Other people hear it, too?

I agree with your assessment of the Ouija board, and I'm very happy you've quieted those inner voices that were bothering you. Just trying to get you to look at your current state of mind through the same critical thinking goggles as you've managed to look at your old state of mind with. I commend you for posting this.

[Dancing David]

Ouija boards are cool as entertainment, but not for talking to the dead.
A study of ritual magic leads to a number of conclusions:
It is never good to talk to the dead.
What is left behind is an 'astral shell' when the spirit moves on.
Humans should never allow the dead to posses them, they track up the carpets.

All 'fortune' telling tools are a way of opening a dialouge with the 'unconsious'.

Peace
dancing david

[Ipecac]

Ruby,

DWB is right.

If any of this is true, then it's more likely that you needed psychological counseling rather than religious conversion. You've analyzed part of your experience and concluded it was all in your head. It's likely the rest of it was too.

[Yahzi]

Ruby
One day at the altar praying I asked God to reveal to me what this voice was.....suddenly it came into my mind that it was *me*. I was so confused. I felt that God was telling me that the voice was me.....but that made little sense at the time.
You are not crazy. You have known, all along, that those voices are really just you, saying the things you want to say but are afraid to say.

Emotions are our way of motivating ourselves to do things. You were in an intolerable situation, and so you talked yourself into changing it. You tried being nice at first (Mara), and when that didn't work, you scared yourself into it (Max). Perfectly reasonable, when you think about it: change takes a lot of effort and risk, and so it's not surprising that it takes a strong spur to get you moving.

I don't know what your problems are, but I am guessing you have some issues with authority. Turning to God was a way of trumping your father's authority: God is a bigger authority than dad. Of course, the authority you should be taking orders from is yourself. And guess what... since God is a voice inside your head, you are! The only thing you need the religious trappings for is the social support: when you tell dad, "I have to do X," he argues with you, but if you say, "God says I have to do X," then he has to argue with the priests.

It would be nice to think that you could get some support without having to buy into the priests' racket, but that's the way it goes. The fact that you have rejected legalism is fantastic: it shows you are in control and taking care of yourself. God is the pep talk you give yourself when you need to do something scary. We all have that: when I need to do something scary, I rationalize it until it seems inevitable, and then I can just ride it out instead of running away. If God is what lets you do what is right for you, then I am all for it. And so far, you are just using God as a cover for Ruby, because nobody ever respects Ruby but people jump when God talks. That's great.

However... not to rain on your parade, or take away your power... it would be nice if you understood, on some level, that just because it helps you to believe in God does not mean that God is actually true.

[Denise]

Ruby, you said on the other thread that what brought you to your crisis was your own fault.

I'm not seeing how you would be at fault at all in this situation. If demons existed (I think they don't) then you were deceived by one. You didn't invite a demon to posess you so to speak.

But you also think it's possible that the voices and the compulsions were totally your own. You would not be at fault here either as mental illness is not a person's fault.

[Lord Kenneth]

WOW, Ruby really is nuts....

[c4ts]

Oh man, if you're having problems getting freaked out by paranormal experience, you come here first! Going to the Million Dollar Challenge forum and posting "I'M POSSESSED"
would probably lead us to get you some serious help (unless you really wanted to be possessed, but you make it sound like it was not the case). Well, I suppose the JREF board didn't exist then. Still, you could have seen a psychologist first. Finding a religion like that is using a bigger problem to cure a smaller one, because it just encourages you to be even more superstitious, in believing that a new imaginary character vanquishes the old, scary, one.

Anyway, there's a reason ouija boards don't really work for just one person, and a very simple explanation of why. Can you think of what it might be?

[WooBot]

Originally posted by Ruby
I want to tell this story and hope to get some input on it.
...
Sorry if this was too long.

(backs slowly out of room with calming expression on his features, and quietly closes the door)

[Martin]

Originally posted by Dark Cobra
WOW, Ruby really is nuts.... Originally posted by WooBot
(backs slowly out of room with calming expression on his features, and quietly closes the door)There's no call for crap like that. There are plenty of people out there who deserve our scorn. Ruby isn't one of them.

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by Martinm
There's no call for crap like that. There are plenty of people out there who deserve our scorn. Ruby isn't one of them.

Hearing voices in your head isn't exactly a sign of sanity.

[Martin]

And? Did you have a point there, child?

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by Martinm
And? Did you have a point there, child?

Clearly Ruby is in need of mental assistance.


Of course, saying demons and angels have talked to you are "miracles", not "hallucinations", in today's world.

:rolleyes:

[Martin]

Whether or not Ruby is in need of mental assistance has no bearing whatsoever on your unjustified attacks on her.

[Dub]

Ruby I have one piece of advice for you, put Dark Cobra on ignore. :)

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Dark Cobra

Clearly Ruby is in need of mental assistance.


Back in the early 70s I had a bunch of Pentacostals try to "save" me. They laid hands on me and started praying and writhing around. And like she said, the Holy Spirit was spose to give me one of three gifts: Speaking in Tongues, Healing,....and I think the other was juggling. I was rooting for the juggling.

[Finella]

Hi, Ruby...

Thanks for posting your story. It takes a lot of guts to share that with anyone, let alone with a forum like this one.

As Yahzi and others have asserted, it may be possible that what you felt was the voice of God could have been borne of the same perception of your Mara and Max. As a Christian, I don't think it's necessarily so -- although it is clear to me that Mara and Max were definitely hallucinations and not demons or spirits.

It is amazing and wonderful, though, how you were able to come out of that obviously difficult time in your life and life free of the voices, without medication, without institutionalization, without the stigma of mental illness that millions in this country have to endure. While others here may say you should have sought psychiatric (or psychological) help at the start rather than go to a church, I am not sure that medication or hospitalization would have helped you as much as your experience did. I don't agree with the religious rationalization of obvious symptoms of mental illness as being spirits come to haunt or help us; but I also don't agree with locking up mentally ill people with other mentally ill people and somehow implying that they have control over their symptoms while pumping them full of drugs which we don't even really understand what makes them work. (badly constructed sentence, sorry!).

Those are my prejudices, there -- I work in a psychiatric setting for those with no insurance, and thus they get little in the way of support once they leave the hospital. I can see why a church full of people with good intentions and big hearts (and I know there are some who don't, but in my experience this generally is the case) would be far more appealing to someone in a desperate situation than a tired, burned-out psychiatrist who is going to charge you upfront for your session and give you pills which make you feel like crap.

I can see that your faith helped your toward wholeness of mind. Maybe you are not so sure about your faith now, but it brought you to a good place. If only we could find a way to use the healthy, healing parts of faith without the corruption and misuse of power to help more people in situations such as these.

Finella
---,---'--{@

[ImpyTimpy]

Cobra, back off your freaking high horse kid. You're posting left and right what problems you have, how people are harassing you and what not, yet YOU are here harassing people yourself.

If you want people to take your arguments seriously, present them in a clear, logical manner FIRST. Otherwise you're nothing but a skeptic wannabe with limited intelligence and grand delusions of self.

Originally posted by Dark Cobra


Clearly Ruby is in need of mental assistance.


Of course, saying demons and angels have talked to you are "miracles", not "hallucinations", in today's world.

:rolleyes:

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by ImpyTimpy
Cobra, back off your freaking high horse kid. You're posting left and right what problems you have, how people are harassing you and what not, yet YOU are here harassing people yourself.

If you want people to take your arguments seriously, present them in a clear, logical manner FIRST. Otherwise you're nothing but a skeptic wannabe with limited intelligence and grand delusions of self.



I'm not the one hearing voices. :)

If you are hearing voices, you need mental assistance. Quit humoring her. She needs help ASAP.

Just because this "angel and demon" stuff is popular mythology doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken seriously.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Dark Cobra
Just because this "angel and demon" stuff is popular mythology doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken seriouslyYou're not taking it seriously. You're just being a moronic cretin.

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by Martinm
You're not taking it seriously. You're just being a moronic cretin.

You're right, Ruby really does talk to demons.

Hey, Ruby! Say "hi!" to Max for me!

[Martin]

Originally posted by Dark Cobra
You're right, Ruby really does talk to demonsI didn't say that, moron.

[Lord Kenneth]

I think it's insulting that Ruby calls herself a "skeptic" and turns out to be a class-A woo-woo.

[Martin]

Good. You deserve to be insulted.

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by Martinm
Good. You deserve to be insulted.


Sorry, sorry, sorry!

I'm sorry for saying you weren't completely sane, Ruby.

No, we ALL hear demonic voices. Perfectly natural. In fact, I retaliated because I'm jealous, because I'm the insane one, not hearing these voices and all.

[Martin]

{sigh}

What's it like on the left of the bell curve, anyway?

[c4ts]

Get a room, you two.

[Lord Kenneth]

Fine.

I apologize, Ruby.

You're not insane, you're just "mistaken".

[Ruby]

Originally posted by dwb
How do you know God is not another inner voice? You readily admit that you've convinced yourself of things with the subconscious voices "Mara" and "Max." What makes the "God" voice different? Other people hear it, too?

That's a very good question to ask. I have pondered it many times. My faith is low in this area...the area of hearing from God.............I find that many Christians claim "God said this" and "God said that" while it does not jive at all with any situation. I have also seen instances of people saying God said such and such would happen...and it did happen.

I am not ready to call the voice of God just another part of me. I need other things clarified or put to rest before I can drop my belief in God. Frankly, that seems terrifying in itself. How does one cope without a belief in God?

[Lord Kenneth]

Here's a theory, Ruby.

Perhaps the demons really were aliens, and they were planning to abduct you while you were in a Lutheran church.

Unfortunantly, their plan messed up and you went Pentacostal instead.

[Lord Kenneth]

<center>http://www.perryweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alex/doom/imp.jpg


My name is Max, I shall rip away your flesh and feast upon your soul.

</center>

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Ruby


How does one cope without a belief in God?

Qute well, it seems. Some of the atheists on this board say they feel emancipated from having to incorporate everything into a complex system of beliefs where they have to jump through hoops just to keep it consistent with what they find out for themselves. I think Dr. Matt said it was like the feeling of relief that comes after you finish beating your head against the wall (in another thread, somewhere).

[Lord Kenneth]

How does one cope without a belief in God?

Same way one copes without a belief in gnomes.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Ruby

How does one cope without a belief in God? [/COLOR]

How does one cope believing in the ridiculous god described in the Bible? If you've never read the Bible, do yourself a favor and read it. The jealousy...the hatred for humanity...the pettiness is overwhelming. The god of the Old Testament is the tribal god of one particular group. He avows that other gods exist. He certainly isn't the god of the Egyptians. However in the New Testament, god loves everyone now. He's psychotic. If there is a supreme being (which I doubt) - the Bible would be an insult. All it does is create guilt and fear.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Yahzi
[B]Ruby

You are not crazy. You have known, all along, that those voices are really just you, saying the things you want to say but are afraid to say.

Emotions are our way of motivating ourselves to do things. You were in an intolerable situation, and so you talked yourself into changing it. You tried being nice at first (Mara), and when that didn't work, you scared yourself into it (Max). Perfectly reasonable, when you think about it: change takes a lot of effort and risk, and so it's not surprising that it takes a strong spur to get you moving.

I don't know what your problems are, but I am guessing you have some issues with authority. Turning to God was a way of trumping your father's authority: God is a bigger authority than dad. Of course, the authority you should be taking orders from is yourself. And guess what... since God is a voice inside your head, you are! The only thing you need the religious trappings for is the social support: when you tell dad, "I have to do X," he argues with you, but if you say, "God says I have to do X," then he has to argue with the priests.

I did have some issues with my dad concerning authority, but they were not serious. It was mainly his ideas on how I should raise my son that brought tension. My dad never told me what to do like a normal parent would. That's due to the fact that he did not raise me. Most of the time I spent with him was as an adult. He passed away nearly three years ago now. Miss him very much!:(

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Denise
Ruby, you said on the other thread that what brought you to your crisis was your own fault.

I'm not seeing how you would be at fault at all in this situation. If demons existed (I think they don't) then you were deceived by one. You didn't invite a demon to posess you so to speak.

But you also think it's possible that the voices and the compulsions were totally your own. You would not be at fault here either as mental illness is not a person's fault.

Well, you have a point, but I still feel to blame. I feel that I fooled around with something that I should have left alone. I have never thought of the incidence in terms of mental illness.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by c4ts
Oh man, if you're having problems getting freaked out by paranormal experience, you come here first! Going to the Million Dollar Challenge forum and posting "I'M POSSESSED"
would probably lead us to get you some serious help (unless you really wanted to be possessed, but you make it sound like it was not the case). Well, I suppose the JREF board didn't exist then.

Nope, what a shame!;)

Still, you could have seen a psychologist first. Finding a religion like that is using a bigger problem to cure a smaller one, because it just encourages you to be even more superstitious, in believing that a new imaginary character vanquishes the old, scary, one.

I was more scared of Doctors and Psychiatrists than I was religion. I also felt I could cover up the situation better with my dad if I went the religion route.

Anyway, there's a reason ouija boards don't really work for just one person, and a very simple explanation of why. Can you think of what it might be?

But the ouija did work just fine for me alone. I played it alone all the time. The marker seemingly moved without me moving it at all. It was bizzarre. No wonder so many can be sucked in by it.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Martinm
There's no call for crap like that. There are plenty of people out there who deserve our scorn. Ruby isn't one of them.

Thank you!!!
http://home.att.net/~rubypoetry/sparkme.gif

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Dark Cobra


Hearing voices in your head isn't exactly a sign of sanity.

It's not termed as "insanity" either. Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that many suffer from. My incident with "hearing voices" lasted eight months. That is not anything like the illness of schizophrenia. People can live with the disorder for years and years. That whole incident happened to me over ten years ago.

[Ruby]

I will reply to everyone else tomorrow. Must go to bed now...very sleepy!!!:D :p

[Loki]

Ruby,

Thanks for the info! A very interesting path you've travelled, and I'm glad to hear that your troubles are well and truly in the past. Just wanted to say that although the church gave you a framework to work within, and the support to move forward, at the end of the day you are here today because of who and what *you* are. You should be proud of what you've achieved because it is, and has always been, *you* that made the decisions, and seen them through. I guess you feel you couldn't have done this without your god, but I believe you're wrong - the platform you stand on now is one that you built.

Perhaps one day you'll find that you trust your own abilities enough to let go of your god, and perhaps not. But I hope you realise that the key player in the past 10 years of your life has been you.

[Samus]

Originally posted by Ruby
That's a very good question to ask. Thanks! :)

Originally posted by Ruby
I find that many Christians claim "God said this" and "God said that" while it does not jive at all with any situation. I have also seen instances of people saying God said such and such would happen...and it did happen. Here's an area tricky for me. I am wary of people that claim to speak on behalf of God. "God says this, you must do that," I just don't buy it. Especially from some wacko on cable TV at 2 a.m. So I can understand why you look at that type of thing with a critical eye. It's a good thing, too.

On to the next statement. If I knew you well enough, I could probably predict a couple things that would happen to you, and they may very well turn out to be right. But I'm not God (at least, I don't think I am). Probability is on my side that I'll be right at least once, especially if I knew you well.

Originally posted by Ruby
I am not ready to call the voice of God just another part of me. I need other things clarified or put to rest before I can drop my belief in God. Frankly, that seems terrifying in itself. How does one cope without a belief in God? Fair enough. You sound like a true thinker, I have to commend you again. Don't listen to detractors that try to write you off as a loony.

Don't make dropping your belief in God the goal. Having things clarified and put to rest should be your goal. If you arrive at atheism, so be it. Losing faith that God exists isn't really terrifying. It's a lot like letting go of that teddy bear you loved as a child. Even though the bear is old and worn, and totally irrelevant in your day-to-day life, you still feel better holding on to it.

As I've stated before on these forums, I pretty much live my life like an atheist. I don't pray, don't attend church, don't thank God or ask him for anything, don't think of what God might do to me, or if I'm going to heaven. All that said, I leave open the possibility that God can exist, even if I'm content to believe he doesn't. Most myths don't perpetuate for thousands of years like the belief in God has, which in my mind, lends a little credibility to this God fella.

Where I have a problem with God is that we're not born with an awareness of God. We need to be taught about him in Sunday school, have the fear of hell drilled into us as impressionable youth. In theory, if someone was raised completely removed from theists, they would have no need for a God.

Then there are people that want to have a God in their lives, it gives them strength and simple explanations for things that go wrong in their life (God decided this was best...) To me, just deferring to the "it's God's will" excuse all the time is weak. Sometimes, things just happen and that's that. How do soul mates happen to meet? Why do people die at the most inopportune time? Those are difficult questions to deal with, and I don't like to use God as a cop-out.

Whatever you decide about God and the voices within you will be entirely up to you, just the way it should be.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Finella
[B]Hi, Ruby...

Thanks for posting your story. It takes a lot of guts to share that with anyone, let alone with a forum like this one.

As Yahzi and others have asserted, it may be possible that what you felt was the voice of God could have been borne of the same perception of your Mara and Max. As a Christian, I don't think it's necessarily so -- although it is clear to me that Mara and Max were definitely hallucinations and not demons or spirits.

Thank you for your kind post. There was a time, I was certain that "Mara" and "Max" had been demonic. I was certainly told that by the church I was attending. I am sure there are many Christians who tell me today that they were demons. I just can't believe that anymore.

It is amazing and wonderful, though, how you were able to come out of that obviously difficult time in your life and life free of the voices, without medication, without institutionalization, without the stigma of mental illness that millions in this country have to endure. While others here may say you should have sought psychiatric (or psychological) help at the start rather than go to a church, I am not sure that medication or hospitalization would have helped you as much as your experience did. I don't agree with the religious rationalization of obvious symptoms of mental illness as being spirits come to haunt or help us; but I also don't agree with locking up mentally ill people with other mentally ill people and somehow implying that they have control over their symptoms while pumping them full of drugs which we don't even really understand what makes them work. (badly constructed sentence, sorry!).

You are right. I only endured eight months of "hearing voices" for some it goes on for years. I am glad I turned to a church for help. I am not sure I would have been completely freed through psychiatric help.


I can see that your faith helped your toward wholeness of mind. Maybe you are not so sure about your faith now, but it brought you to a good place. If only we could find a way to use the healthy, healing parts of faith without the corruption and misuse of power to help more people in situations such as these.

Yes, that would be a wonderful thing!

:D

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Loki
Ruby,

Thanks for the info! A very interesting path you've travelled, and I'm glad to hear that your troubles are well and truly in the past. Just wanted to say that although the church gave you a framework to work within, and the support to move forward, at the end of the day you are here today because of who and what *you* are. You should be proud of what you've achieved because it is, and has always been, *you* that made the decisions, and seen them through. I guess you feel you couldn't have done this without your god, but I believe you're wrong - the platform you stand on now is one that you built.

Perhaps one day you'll find that you trust your own abilities enough to let go of your god, and perhaps not. But I hope you realise that the key player in the past 10 years of your life has been you.

Thank you!!

You're not the same Loki from Delphi forums are you?

[Ruby]

Originally posted by dwb
[B] Thanks! :)

Here's an area tricky for me. I am wary of people that claim to speak on behalf of God. "God says this, you must do that," I just don't buy it. Especially from some wacko on cable TV at 2 a.m. So I can understand why you look at that type of thing with a critical eye. It's a good thing, too.

Oh goodness, I get so furious at the TV evangelist crap. When Benny Hinn spoke in a evil deep voice (claiming it was the Holy Spirit) and said that anyone that came against him, and his ministry would have terrible things happen to them, I wanted to scream. How dare he use God like that.

On to the next statement. If I knew you well enough, I could probably predict a couple things that would happen to you, and they may very well turn out to be right. But I'm not God (at least, I don't think I am). Probability is on my side that I'll be right at least once, especially if I knew you well.

There were Christians who knew I should marry my husband before I did. This was when I was only friends with my hubby. I can still call it concidence.


Don't make dropping your belief in God the goal. Having things clarified and put to rest should be your goal. If you arrive at atheism, so be it. Losing faith that God exists isn't really terrifying. It's a lot like letting go of that teddy bear you loved as a child. Even though the bear is old and worn, and totally irrelevant in your day-to-day life, you still feel better holding on to it.

No, it's not my goal to drop my belief in God. It would take lots of things to cause me to drop that belief. It frightens me that I have even thought that I might be mistaken about my beliefs.


Then there are people that want to have a God in their lives, it gives them strength and simple explanations for things that go wrong in their life (God decided this was best...) To me, just deferring to the "it's God's will" excuse all the time is weak. Sometimes, things just happen and that's that. How do soul mates happen to meet? Why do people die at the most inopportune time? Those are difficult questions to deal with, and I don't like to use God as a cop-out.

I don't either. I get fed up with hearing "it's God's will" or even "all things work together for good......".

[c4ts]

Oh goodness, I get so furious at the TV evangelist crap. When Benny Hinn spoke in a evil deep voice (claiming it was the Holy Spirit) and said that anyone that came against him, and his ministry would have terrible things happen to them, I wanted to scream. How dare he use God like that.

I think I have found an explanation for demonic posession: Televangelism!

[Ruby]

Originally posted by c4ts


I think I have found an explanation for demonic posession: Televangelism! :D

Originally posted by Ruby
:D

Dear Ms. Ruby,

I am pleased to see my quote in your signature. However, I am a bit confused why it is attributed to my 'literary agent'. ;)

Perhaps you might enjoy another of my maxims:

We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.

Sincerely yours,

S. Holmes

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by Ruby
No, it's not my goal to drop my belief in God. It would take lots of things to cause me to drop that belief. It frightens me that I have even thought that I might be mistaken about my beliefs.



A couple of years ago, triggered by the JREF, I had been trying to assimilate the whole "critical thinking" thing and looking at the world with opened eyes. The day I dropped my belief in god, my mind moved towards the possibility, and the belief kind of fell away. It was something of an odd sensation coming to that conclusion after a lifetime of belief, and a little frightening.

But what I got in return was wonderful - illumination.

[Star Of The Sea]

Originally posted by Finella



I can see that your faith helped your toward wholeness of mind. Maybe you are not so sure about your faith now, but it brought you to a good place. If only we could find a way to use the healthy, healing parts of faith without the corruption and misuse of power to help more people in situations such as these.

Finella
---,---'--{@

That is an excellent way of putting it. The religious impulse is very strong, and can be a source of greath strength and comfort. It is when the religious impulse is commodified and dogmatised that the problems arise. Ruby, is there a Quaker church near you? I feel you would get a great deal of love and support from these caring and compassionate people, regardless of your personal problems. Best of all, they will not be unforgiving or abandon you if you lose your faith or change your views.

regards,

Luke

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Ruby


It's not termed as "insanity" either. Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that many suffer from. My incident with "hearing voices" lasted eight months. That is not anything like the illness of schizophrenia. People can live with the disorder for years and years. That whole incident happened to me over ten years ago.

That's because schitzophrenia does not necessarily mean hearing voices. You might have something else.

[Lord Kenneth]

If she claimed she was abducted by aliens, people would be far more willing to tell her she needs help.

How sad, that people have to be such hypocrites.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes


Dear Ms. Ruby,

I am pleased to see my quote in your signature. However, I am a bit confused why it is attributed to my 'literary agent'. ;)

Perhaps you might enjoy another of my maxims:

We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.

Sincerely yours,

S. Holmes

I am your biggest fan!!!!!!:D :D :D

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by Torment
I almost have to agree with DC here. :eek:

The fact that you were very likely insane when you arrived at the conclusion that god exists is not a very good thing, as far as promoting or rationalizing your belief in him goes.

You seem to be better now though and I'm glad you conquered your insanity. Perhaps religion can actually lead to good things every now and then. :)

She was, and possibily still is, delusional.

She invents things based on the power of suggestion (take Penn & Teller's many exploits into it!), such as Ouiji boards, which do not work, as being the work of demons.

In fact, I think it is possible it was suggested to her that demons possessed her, based on some of what she said.
Anyways, Ouiji boards are said to be evil, and Ruby, not being able to tell fact from fiction in her mental state, believed it, and played a type of make-believe where she couldn't tell it was fake.

So religion suggesting to her that these demons are gone would have that effect. It's not religion's doing, it's still her insanity.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Ipecac



A couple of years ago, triggered by the JREF, I had been trying to assimilate the whole "critical thinking" thing and looking at the world with opened eyes. The day I dropped my belief in god, my mind moved towards the possibility, and the belief kind of fell away. It was something of an odd sensation coming to that conclusion after a lifetime of belief, and a little frightening.

But what I got in return was wonderful - illumination.

One thing is for sure, I am getting lots of illumination from the Jref forums. I love the people on here. Most are far above me intellectually, but they don't all condescend to me.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Star Of The Sea


That is an excellent way of putting it. The religious impulse is very strong, and can be a source of greath strength and comfort. It is when the religious impulse is commodified and dogmatised that the problems arise. Ruby, is there a Quaker church near you? I feel you would get a great deal of love and support from these caring and compassionate people, regardless of your personal problems. Best of all, they will not be unforgiving or abandon you if you lose your faith or change your views.

regards,

Luke

I already attend a wonderful little interdenominational church. I have an awesome church family and the best Pastor ever. I don't know of any quaker churches around here....but thanks for the suggestion!:D

[Ruby]

Originally posted by c4ts


That's because schitzophrenia does not necessarily mean hearing voices. You might have something else.

Ok, the cats out of the bag...I was abducted by aliens...just as DC thinks. :D


Seriously, the incident that happened to me is over ten years dead. I don't know what it would have been termed as by a Psychologist. I think they might find it amazing that it only lasted eight months.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Ruby


Ok, the cats out of the bag...I was abducted by aliens...just as DC thinks. :D


Seriously, the incident that happened to me is over ten years dead. I don't know what it would have been termed as by a Psychologist. I think they might find it amazing that it only lasted eight months.

You may have just psyched yourself out, then. Or you could have found a way of ignoring the symptoms of mental illness without curing the disease. I sincerely hope the latter is not true.

[Denise]

Many people think that hearing voices means a person has Schizophrenia. This isn't true. Mood disorders such as depression can also cause auditory hallucinations. Post partem depression can also cause brief periods of psychosis in which the victim hears voices.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Denise
Many people think that hearing voices means a person has Schizophrenia. This isn't true. Mood disorders such as depression can also cause auditory hallucinations. Post partem depression can also cause brief periods of psychosis in which the victim hears voices.

Yes, that is true. That is one reason I could never call my episode "Schizophrenia". It was brief psychosis. Why it occurred through playing with an ouija, I do not know. My mental state at the time was one of loneliness and social phobia. I still struggle with social phobia.

[Denise]

Originally posted by Ruby


Yes, that is true. That is one reason I could never call my episode "Schizophrenia". It was brief psychosis. Why it occurred through playing with an ouija, I do not know. My mental state at the time was one of loneliness and social phobia. I still struggle with social phobia.

I wrote that beause you said that the Psychiatric field might be surprised that your episode only lasted 8 months. I was just trying to point out that a lot of episodes are brief and not Schizophrenia which usually lasts for years and years.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by c4ts


You may have just psyched yourself out, then. Or you could have found a way of ignoring the symptoms of mental illness without curing the disease. I sincerely hope the latter is not true.

At the time, I thought it was the obsessive way I played with the ouija board that caused my little psychosis. What led me to be obsessive with playing the board ws that I was lonely and social phobic.

I am still social phobic and have sought help for that for a few years now. I have come a long way. Life is good and full of hope as well as challenges.:D

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Denise


I wrote that beause you said that the Psychiatric field might be surprised that your episode only lasted 8 months. I was just trying to point out that a lot of episodes are brief and not Schizophrenia which usually lasts for years and years.

Yes. I do think that my brief psychosis would be met with surprise....even though it was not typical schizophrenia. The fact that it ended without Psychiatric help would be the surprise.

[Dancing David]

Gee Ruby , you sure are a cool person. Calmly talikng about mental illness. As someone who was a mental health professional for twelve years I became well aquainted with mental illness.
There are short forms of psychosis that are not schizophrenia, but you don't talk about the things usually associated with psychosis.

So many things can be called voices that are not, intrusive thoughts for example.

Glad you found your path.

Peace
dancing David

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Ruby

The fact that it ended without Psychiatric help would be the surprise.

No surprise at all.. Very few psychosis end soley because of psychiatric help.




Changed: 'with' to ' soley because of'

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Dancing David
Gee Ruby , you sure are a cool person. Calmly talikng about mental illness. As someone who was a mental health professional for twelve years I became well aquainted with mental illness.
There are short forms of psychosis that are not schizophrenia, but you don't talk about the things usually associated with psychosis.

So many things can be called voices that are not, intrusive thoughts for example.

Glad you found your path.

Peace
dancing David

Thnx!!!!:D

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Diogenes


No surprise at all.. Very few psychosis end with psychiatric help.

I'd be curious to know how they did end. Perhaps it would help understand what happened to me.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Ruby


I'd be curious to know how they did end. Perhaps it would help understand what happened to me.

So would a lot of mental health professionals.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Ruby


Yes, that is true. That is one reason I could never call my episode "Schizophrenia". It was brief psychosis. Why it occurred through playing with an ouija, I do not know. My mental state at the time was one of loneliness and social phobia. I still struggle with social phobia.

Going to church is helping you to overcome social phobia, I hope.

[Lord Kenneth]

I hope Ruby looks at the evidence and makes the proper conclusion toward the existence of god.

Which is, of course, mine.

[Finella]

I just did a quick search for DSM criteria for Schizophrenia:


http://www.sc.maricopa.edu/sbscience/psy266/criteria/psychosis/schizophrenia.html

You'll note that there's types of schizophrenia, which include "episodic" or even "single episode". I agree with others, though, that Ruby's experience may have been a single episode of psychosis, which is often found in severe types of mood disorders (e.g., depression, bipolar disorder).

I still think there's something very wrong with our medical/psychiatric system if a doctor is so scary to a person or they are so worried about having to divulge their medical condition to others that they do not seek help. If the system were as caring as a healthy church is, I'm sure more people would not only seek help, but would actually be helped.

---,---'--{@

[BillyJoe]

Hi Ruby,

I just got your link on that other thread and I find you posted your story a couple of days ago and there are already eight pages of replies which I haven't had time to read.

I have read your story though and I think you already have most of the answers. I suppose the only one you missed is that you were looking for religion and so it is no wonder that you found it.

Hope to read more soon.

regards,
BillyJoe


edit:
Sorry I confused myself with multiple windows open. There are only 2 pages. Still, I have to leave it till tomorrow

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Finella


I still think there's something very wrong with our medical/psychiatric system if a doctor is so scary to a person or they are so worried about having to divulge their medical condition to others that they do not seek help. If the system were as caring as a healthy church is, I'm sure more people would not only seek help, but would actually be helped.

---,---'--{@

Oooh, as a former mental health professional I have to disagree, there are bad practitioners everywhere. However the willingness to seek treatment is a societal phenomena which the mental health system very actively tries to change. Please don't tell me that I spent twelve years of my working life making it harder for people to get treatment. Please do a search on Fred Friese at Case Western University to see where the mental health system gets it's perspective, then there is Dr. Fischer, and then the whole Boston U. recovery/PSR movement.

Families and culture lead to more stigma than the mental health system.

In my experience most people ignore the prodomal period when they talk about schizophrenia, there is usually this long time period where the symptoms are sub-critical. As for why some poeple get well and others don't, there are over three hundred chemicals our brain uses, so there are most likely three hundred schizophrenias.

Sorry I will now get off the soap box.
Sorry to hijack the thread.

Peace
dancing david

[Ruby]

Originally posted by c4ts


Going to church is helping you to overcome social phobia, I hope.

Yep!!:D :D

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Finella
I just did a quick search for DSM criteria for Schizophrenia:


http://www.sc.maricopa.edu/sbscience/psy266/criteria/psychosis/schizophrenia.html

You'll note that there's types of schizophrenia, which include "episodic" or even "single episode". I agree with others, though, that Ruby's experience may have been a single episode of psychosis, which is often found in severe types of mood disorders (e.g., depression, bipolar disorder).

I still think there's something very wrong with our medical/psychiatric system if a doctor is so scary to a person or they are so worried about having to divulge their medical condition to others that they do not seek help. If the system were as caring as a healthy church is, I'm sure more people would not only seek help, but would actually be helped.

---,---'--{@

In my case, my aversion to Doctors was irrational. It was all a part of my social phobia. It took time, years, to discover that most Docs don't bite, and most are very compassionate and helpful. I've certainly heard horror stories, but so far, I have nothing but good things to say about the medical field and those in it!:D

[Ruby]

:D

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Dancing David


Oooh, as a former mental health professional I have to disagree, there are bad practitioners everywhere. However the willingness to seek treatment is a societal phenomena which the mental health system very actively tries to change. Please don't tell me that I spent twelve years of my working life making it harder for people to get treatment. Please do a search on Fred Friese at Case Western University to see where the mental health system gets it's perspective, then there is Dr. Fischer, and then the whole Boston U. recovery/PSR movement.

Families and culture lead to more stigma than the mental health system.

In my experience most people ignore the prodomal period when they talk about schizophrenia, there is usually this long time period where the symptoms are sub-critical. As for why some poeple get well and others don't, there are over three hundred chemicals our brain uses, so there are most likely three hundred schizophrenias.

Sorry I will now get off the soap box.
Sorry to hijack the thread.

Peace
dancing david

Thanks for posting. You did not hijack the thread. :D

[Yahzi]

Dark Cobra
She was, and possibily still is, delusional.
Yes, but her delusionals are helpful.

Now, if she remains reliant on these delusions forever, that would be like remaining addicted to pain-killers. Some people have to take medicine their entire lives, but hopefully they get healthy enough they don't need them.

There is nothing wrong with Ruby being delusional, as long as her delusions are helpful. But just like pain-killers, you have to be careful not to wind up in a spot where they are doing more harm than good. And, you shouldn't share your pain meds with your friends. Hopefully Ruby understands that religion might be good for her, but isn't necessarily good for other people. Or even true.

The goal is of course for her to live by reason. But sometimes people need a little help to get by.

[Dancing David]

Excuse me, but you haven't know a lot of delusional people have you? Usually they start jumping up and down and yelling when you confront thier beliefs, just as you would if someone said the sun rose in the west.

Believe me delusional people are very sensitive about thier beliefs, especialy if you don't agree that they are Napoleon.

Peace
dancing david

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Dancing David
Excuse me, but you haven't know a lot of delusional people have you? Usually they start jumping up and down and yelling when you confront thier beliefs, just as you would if someone said the sun rose in the west.

Believe me delusional people are very sensitive about thier beliefs, especialy if you don't agree that they are Napoleon.

Peace
dancing david

You aren't going to insinuate that I'm not Napoleon are you?http://home.att.net/~Jandk.pan/smile28.gif

[Finella]

Originally posted by Dancing David


Oooh, as a former mental health professional I have to disagree, there are bad practitioners everywhere. However the willingness to seek treatment is a societal phenomena which the mental health system very actively tries to change. Please don't tell me that I spent twelve years of my working life making it harder for people to get treatment. Please do a search on Fred Friese at Case Western University to see where the mental health system gets it's perspective, then there is Dr. Fischer, and then the whole Boston U. recovery/PSR movement.

Families and culture lead to more stigma than the mental health system.

In my experience most people ignore the prodomal period when they talk about schizophrenia, there is usually this long time period where the symptoms are sub-critical. As for why some poeple get well and others don't, there are over three hundred chemicals our brain uses, so there are most likely three hundred schizophrenias.

Sorry I will now get off the soap box.
Sorry to hijack the thread.

Peace
dancing david

No, I will apologize-- my week at my work has been difficult, and I was perhaps being overly negative about my experiences trying to help people.

There are phenomenal caregivers out there. I know my department contains a bunch of them. The problem is in the overall stucture ove the system, where the combination of the nature of mental illness with the inadequacies of the system makes it very difficult for clients to feel cared for and supported. So yes, I agree, that culture and families (or lack of them) play a huge, huge role in this. However, all it takes is one bad experience with a psychiatrist to put you off seeking help in the future. It's true with any service out there -- you remember the bad stuff more easily than the good stuff.

I will look up your references.... after I stop procrastinating on my presentation. I know, however, that it is really difficult to make positive changes in established, old-school systems, and even more difficult when the state cuts your budget by $7.2 million (as they have to my facility this year). I hate to say it... but is the solution for mental health care in the community, in private hands? Ugh... my democrat genes are cringing...

---,---'--{@

[BillyJoe]

originally posted by Ruby
I am not ready to call the voice of God just another part of me. I need other things clarified or put to rest before I can drop my belief in God. Frankly, that seems terrifying in itself. How does one cope without a belief in God? originally posted by dwb
Losing faith that God exists isn't really terrifying. It's a lot like letting go of that teddy bear you loved as a child. Even though the bear is old and worn, and totally irrelevant in your day-to-day life, you still feel better holding on to it. I have a vivid memory form childhood. I had one of those bears, tattered and worn with stuffing pouring out and one eye hanging by a thread. We were burning off in the back yard and I was holding on to my teddy bear as was my custom. Dad looked at me and at the teddy bear and said "Why don't you throw it in the fire". Almost without hesitation I tossed it in and watched it burn to ashes. I didn't feel happy. I didn't feel sad. I didn't feel relieved. I just stood there and watched it burn. I guess I was through with it and hadn't realized it till then.

Still, I wonder why, of all the things that must have happened to me in those years, I especially remember that incident.


Ruby,
I am happy to have read your story. You seem a nice, friendly, mostly straight up and down sort of person with some problems which you are managing the best you can. If it means holding onto that teddy bear a little while yet, then so be it. For me there are more terrifying things than that God doesn't exist - for example that he does and that He is goning to make me live forever - but that's another story. I wish you well with finding solutions to your problems and I especially hope you find relief from your social phobia - that's a real bummer.

regards,
BillyJoe

[Ruby]

Thank you!!!:cool:

Dear Ruby,

I read your original post earlier, and wanted to comment on it, but never got around to it in any detail. I read it over again today during lunch, and wanted to post my thoughts.

It sounds like you have a lot of investigative spirit and curiousity, both very good traits! I enjoy exploring a variety of things, similar to things you have explored (church, occult, and so on). The idea is to explore them tentatively, and keep things more at the 'data collection' stage rather than at the 'conclusion' stage. Because we are normal humans, actually doing that is difficult to do, and takes practice.

Also, as you have learned, getting all the information you can from a variety of sources (pro and con and lots of both) is the way to proceed. Ask people, professionals, read books, watch videos, read journal articles, and do internet searches to get a dizzy-ing amount of information. (just don't do it all in one sitting! :))

If, in your course of inquiry, something 'works' for you, then by all means, explore it more. We naturally have desires to explore more the things that interest us the most. I think it is very possible to explore without being dogmatically attached to the thing being explored.

Someone can study god and endorse the idea of god without being dogmatically attached, and I think that is a tremendous accomplishment.

When I read your thoughts about how you were closely examining the Ouijia board and concept of god, I thought "There is an intelligent, brave person. A scientist." You may have examined those things later, and ideally you would have liked to examined them sooner, but actually examining them is the main thing. I believe that it is the process of thinking things through that counts, not necessarily the end-point.

I find that just the act of writing down and telling someone else one of my problems (and there are enough of mine to go for days and days) every-so-often helps a lot.

Practice makes almost-perfect, :)
Sincerely,

S. Holmes

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
Dear Ruby,

I read your original post earlier, and wanted to comment on it, but never got around to it in any detail. I read it over again today during lunch, and wanted to post my thoughts.

It sounds like you have a lot of investigative spirit and curiousity, both very good traits! I enjoy exploring a variety of things, similar to things you have explored (church, occult, and so on). The idea is to explore them tentatively, and keep things more at the 'data collection' stage rather than at the 'conclusion' stage. Because we are normal humans, actually doing that is difficult to do, and takes practice.

Also, as you have learned, getting all the information you can from a variety of sources (pro and con and lots of both) is the way to proceed. Ask people, professionals, read books, watch videos, read journal articles, and do internet searches to get a dizzy-ing amount of information. (just don't do it all in one sitting! :))

If, in your course of inquiry, something 'works' for you, then by all means, explore it more. We naturally have desires to explore more the things that interest us the most. I think it is very possible to explore without being dogmatically attached to the thing being explored.

Someone can study god and endorse the idea of god without being dogmatically attached, and I think that is a tremendous accomplishment.

When I read your thoughts about how you were closely examining the Ouijia board and concept of god, I thought "There is an intelligent, brave person. A scientist." You may have examined those things later, and ideally you would have liked to examined them sooner, but actually examining them is the main thing. I believe that it is the process of thinking things through that counts, not necessarily the end-point.

I find that just the act of writing down and telling someone else one of my problems (and there are enough of mine to go for days and days) every-so-often helps a lot.

Practice makes almost-perfect, :)
Sincerely,

S. Holmes

Thank you so much for your kind post. I sometimes drive my hubby crazy due to my skepticism, but it is also something that he loves about me...if that makes sense!

I have to study something through. I can't accept just anything. I did used to believe that it was demons who were speaking to me, and that an ouija board was governed by demons. I had doubts, but buried it as I could not entertain any other possibilty for awhile. Besides, all the Christians around me, at the time, were saying it was demons who were messing with me.

You can't imagine how terrifying that concept was. It kept me bound up in so much fear.

In time, after I left the legalistic church I was in, and as I became unafraid to look at what happened to me, and evaluate it, I began to see things that did not add up, and that showed me that there was something more going on. I began looking it up online. When I read about ideomoter, I knew right away that it explained almost perfectly what I had experienced.

It would be a blow to some of my old Christian friends to hear my revelations on this. They would argue against it. Thankfully, my hubby agrees with my conclusions on the matter.

(edited to add omitted words and ridculous spelling errors....actually, typing errors)

[Julia]

Ruby,
I have been giving your original post a lot of thought. One
thing that really strikes me is how fluid your life has been these
past few years. You have been through a great deal, and seem to have never really stopped questioning, changing, and evaluating. To me, that says a good deal about your strength of character. Your strength overall.

You seem the type who will continue to question and change.
There is not a better way to learn, or a better way to grow. I
also admire your courage to face a group like this and to say
plainly; this is who I am.

Your experience with the ouija board was interesting. You even
managed to use it as a tool for insight. I know that it always just
seemed silly to me. It was something I discounted and tossed aside. But you seem to take things, rip the wrapping off, and jump into everything for a better look. I'll bet you are like that with many things that come your way.

So, good luck Ruby. You are treating your life like the journey it is. I hope you have great success along the way.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Julia
Ruby,
I have been giving your original post a lot of thought. One
thing that really strikes me is how fluid your life has been these
past few years. You have been through a great deal, and seem to have never really stopped questioning, changing, and evaluating. To me, that says a good deal about your strength of character. Your strength overall.

You seem the type who will continue to question and change.
There is not a better way to learn, or a better way to grow. I
also admire your courage to face a group like this and to say
plainly; this is who I am.

Your experience with the ouija board was interesting. You even
managed to use it as a tool for insight. I know that it always just
seemed silly to me. It was something I discounted and tossed aside. But you seem to take things, rip the wrapping off, and jump into everything for a better look. I'll bet you are like that with many things that come your way.

So, good luck Ruby. You are treating your life like the journey it is. I hope you have great success along the way.

Oh, thank you so much. Yes, I think I will question things for the rest of my life. I don't know if I'll get all the answers, but I'll try!:) It's very therapeutic posting here. I am also getting some possible answers to my inner questions here. I feel very challenged here too.

I don't honestly have a lot of close friends in real life. All of my friends are Christian and I cannot even talk to most of them about the way I see things. That causes me to withdraw from them a bit. I am also not comfortable anymore in certain church related events. That also keeps me from making close friends. My hubby is sort of same way...although for him, it has a lot to do with fact that he is very intelligent...far far above me in that respect.....and some men at our church...well quite a few really, don't click with my hubby very well.

The Pastor and one other man in church are the only ones who are intelligent and secure enough to interact with my hubby on more than a casual friendship basis. My hubby is friendly to everyone, and women love him, but a lot of men seem to clam up and look uptight around him. In conversations, they get stymied by what he says and stammer out responses. Still, my hubby has a lot of good friends at work.

I am a homemaker. I love being home to raise my kiddoes. It does not help the friends situation, but most of the time, I don't miss it. I am very shy too.....so that does not help me.

I'm yammering on here....sorry!:rolleyes:

[BillyJoe]

Ruby, I think I'm falling in love with you :)

[I mean that in a nice way. :) ]

[SFB]

Ruby:

Your candor here has a charming quality that is hard to resist! I, like other posters, wish you the best of luck.

[LCBOY]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Ruby, I think I'm falling in love with you :)

[I mean that in a nice way. :) ]

Hey! I fell in love with you first!!;)

[Ruby]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Ruby, I think I'm falling in love with you :)

[I mean that in a nice way. :) ]

Awwww....Thank you!!:D :D

[Ruby]

Originally posted by SFB
Ruby:

Your candor here has a charming quality that is hard to resist! I, like other posters, wish you the best of luck.

Thank you so much. I am so touched. Sometimes, I feel like such an oddball. It's not always easy. Being a skeptic makes me a sore spot for many Christians, and for some atheists. One group thinks I'm too liberal and headed down a wrong path, another thinks I'm not rational enough..or even a downright idiot due to clinging to my belief in God. Still, on the whole, I am finding a lot of people here who accept me despite my beliefs. :) :)

[Ruby]

Originally posted by LCBOY


Hey! I fell in love with you first!!;)

You are a dear!!

Where have been lately?:confused: :)

[SFB]

Originally posted by Ruby


Thank you so much. I am so touched. Sometimes, I feel like such an oddball. It's not always easy. Being a skeptic makes me a sore spot for many Christians, and for some atheists. One group thinks I'm too liberal and headed down a wrong path, another thinks I'm not rational enough..or even a downright idiot due to clinging to my belief in God. Still, on the whole, I am finding a lot of people here who accept me despite my beliefs. :) :)

I may be going out on a limb here (or maybe not, I haven't read all of your posts or posts about you), but I think perhaps the appeal you have here is from your deep-rooted honesty and desire for truth. You share these with skeptics, despite your wavering (?) beliefs. I'd call you at least a bit skeptic about religion.

Also, I understand your loneliness, as I don't have too many people to talk to about religion and atheism, being an atheist, but I don't need too many people. This forum convinced me of long-held doubts, but I never had much of a conviction in religion. You have been through some truly difficult experiences. If anything, your experiences reveal the power of culture and family/peer pressure to form ways of looking at the world. You are willing to go beyond that, and that takes an enormous amount of courage and honesty, given your expressed experiences. This has probably been expressed by others.

:)

[Ruby]

Originally posted by SFB


I may be going out on a limb here (or maybe not, I haven't read all of your posts or posts about you), but I think perhaps the appeal you have here is from your deep-rooted honesty and desire for truth. You share these with skeptics, despite your wavering (?) beliefs. I'd call you at least a bit skeptic about religion.

Yes, and my skepticism keeps growing.

Also, I understand your loneliness, as I don't have too many people to talk to about religion and atheism, being an atheist, but I don't need too many people. This forum convinced me of long-held doubts, but I never had much of a conviction in religion. You have been through some truly difficult experiences. If anything, your experiences reveal the power of culture and family/peer pressure to form ways of looking at the world. You are willing to go beyond that, and that takes an enormous amount of courage and honesty, given your expressed experiences. This has probably been expressed by others.

:)

Thank you so much. I live in the bible belt, so almost everyone is a Christian. If some of my friends knew I had doubts and questions about my faith...and some anger concerning it, they would be worried and not understand. That's why I don't open up to them. I don't want to hear "well, I'll pray for you". I am sort of at a place where I don't believe in prayer. It seems pretty pointless to me. I can't tell you how free it's make me feel to admit that........I can't say that to anyone, except my hubby, and it worries him...although he understands.

Still, I do cling to a belief in God and Jesus. Does not make sense to beleive in them and yet not pray to them!!

:confused:

[Hazelip]

Ruby, you're a delusional psychotic. Welcome to my ever-increasing ignore list.

My only regret is that I'll never see your answer as to why your avatar lacks a nose and looks like a man in drag...

Ta-ta.

[Hazelip]

Originally posted by Finella
As Yahzi and others have asserted, it may be possible that what you felt was the voice of God could have been borne of the same perception of your Mara and Max. As a Christian, I don't think it's necessarily so -- although it is clear to me that Mara and Max were definitely hallucinations and not demons or spirits.

Why?