Are Atheists Harder on Christianity than Judaism?

[Clancie]

It seems so. Here are some possible reasons:

* Christianity in the U.S. is so widespread and popular. They can take it.

* Jews have it bad enough already.

* Christians proselytize; Jews don't

* A religion so focused on an afterlife is more irritating to atheists than one that isn't

* Christianity is the background religion of most U.S. atheists/agnostics, so its the most familiar and easiest one to criticize
.
* Fear of seeming "anti-Semitic". (But apparently no fear of seeming "anti-Christian")

Or my personal choice...When, in my teens, I realized tht I wasn't a Christian, my Jewish friends patiently put up with my struggle with that and my need to talk incessantly about "atheism being the only right choice in life", even though they all believed deeply in God themselves.

Nowadays I don't argue with people about their religious beliefs, unless they seem interested in doing so. But I do think there's a bit of a double standard when it comes to atheists taking the gloves of in criticizing Christians.

edited to read "...is more irritating to atheists"...per suggestion below

[aerosolben]

Don't forget:

* Christians try to push their religion into law; Jews don't (USA spec.)

That's a biggie right there.

Also, in my experience, Jews seem to consider themselves more of a cultural or racial group than a religious one. Many of them are probably atheists and agnostics themselves.

Is there a double standard? Yes
Is it deserved? Yes

The day Jews start trying to ban pork products and throw people in jail for putting cheese on their burger will be the day I start objecting to Judaism.

[Dancing David]

I would think that it is more of a dominant in our culture that leads to Xianity getting a harder time of it. Some Xians go into all sorts of stuff that belongs in the temporal world and that draws criticism. I think that sceptics will tend to bash the bigger target. Whose claims are more outrageos, hmm.
Burning bush or walking on water.
Chosen people vs. resurection.

Peace
dancing david

[Skeptical Greg]

It doesn't seem to me that Jews are very vocal about Atheism..

The same cannot be said about a lot of Christians..


Atheist's do not tend to be hard on any other religious group that I can think of..

It has to do with Christians trying to force the incorporation of their beliefs into secular life/government. If Jews were doing that, I'm sure Atheists would speak out against it.
In fact, I bet Christians would speak out against it also.

[renata]

More people in power are religious Christians than religious Jews. Therefore, more Christians tend to mix their religion with politics, and blur the state and church line, hence attracting attention of atheists. To my great disappointment, Joseph Lieberman who is an Orthodox Jew adopted the "freedom of religion not freedom from religion" and joined the Christian Right in a lot of its undertakings.

USA is a country in which Christian images and habits are pervasive. I would imagine atheists in Israel tend to focus more on Judaism than Christianity.

Finally, in recent years there were several scandals involving Christianity- Catholics and abusive priests, Southern Baptists and their position on women. I do not recall recent similar scandals about Jewish religious hierarchy.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Clancy
* Christians proselytize; Jews don't

* Christianity is the background religion of most U.S. atheists/agnostics, so its the most familiar and easiest one to criticize.
I mostly agree with these reasons, but especially the first one.
But I do think there's a bit of a double standard when it comes to atheists taking the gloves of in criticizing Christians.
It's not really a double standard when, as you mention above, Christians have distinct characteristics that set them apart from other religions like, say, Judism.

[Darat]

Originally posted by Clancy
...snip...

* A religion so focused on an afterlife is more irritating to skeptics than one that isn't

...snip..


(Nitpicking post)

Er... I thought you were asking about atheists not sceptics?

There are atheists that are not sceptics; there are atheists that are sceptics.

I think you may be confusing the two terms - or do you really consider sceptic=atheist?

[fishbob]

The Xians are the ones pushing Creation Science / Intelligent Design - bogus concepts based on ignorance and lies. The Jewish tradition seems to value learning.

[c4ts]

I've never met a Jew as close-minded as a Christian. I've met orthodox Jews who cling to certain traditions, such as keeping kosher, but they do not expect kosher diets from non-Jews, nor do they become dull or repetitive about their beliefs in the same ways Christians do. They don't try to impose their system of belief over others in order to argue for superiority (as far as I can tell), or simply advertise their own religion, and as a result I have had reasonable discourse with some of my Jewish friends, whereas I can't discuss certain ideas with a Christian friend because he'll bring up God as he thinks he knows it, causing someone getting insulted at the end. Best of all, they don't pretend to know everything about a universe of spirituality, and are willing to think things out for themselves.

[Fade]

I haven't been told by a Jew that I am going to hell, ever. That is telling.

[Yahzi]

Christians are harder on athiests.

So what do you expect?

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Yahzi
Christians are harder on athiests.

I wouldn't be so sure about that... (looks around suspiciously for someone who might be about to mention Hitler this early in the thread)

[Clancie]

originally posted by Darat
Er... I thought you were asking about atheists not sceptics? There are atheists that are not sceptics; there are atheists that are sceptics.
Good point. I've corrected it. Thanks.

[c4ts]

I can see how a skeptic may not necessarily be an atheist, but how can someone be an atheist without being a skeptic?

[Nyarlathotep]

I think Atheists are harder on Christians than other religions due to the sheer frustration factor in dealing with them. I have never Had Wiccans come to my door to "tell me about the Goddess", I have never had Muslims try to force a morning prayer toward Mecca in schools. I have never heard a Jew disparage my character and morals because I don't beleive in God. In short I have never had a representative of any religion except for Christianity try to foricbly impose their beliefs on meor my children and I think that is the case with most other atheists (it is with every one that I know personally). At least in the USA.

I don't know how it is for Atheists in other parts of the world and it might be (in fact it probably is) different in those parts of the world where Christianity is not the predominant religion. In fact I would be willing to bet that atheists in India, for example, are probably harder on Hindus than Christians for much the same reason

[Martin]

Originally posted by c4ts
I can see how a skeptic may not necessarily be an atheist, but how can someone be an atheist without being a skeptic? There's nothing to stop an atheist from believing in, say, astrology.

[Clancie]

how can someone be an atheist without being a skeptic?


Well, just as an example, not believing in any diety can happen in many ways (can even be replaced by some weird nonsense instead).

Lots of people around the world aren't theists. But that doesn't necessarily mean they;re all skeptics, or have even given their beliefs much thought at all.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Martinm
There's nothing to stop an atheist from believing in, say, astrology.

True, but for the most part, the smae line of thinking that leads one to question the existance of God will usually lead one to question the reality of things like Astrology. And Astrology, like God, doesn't stand up well to questioning.

So while it is POSSIBLE for an athiest to beleive in Astrology, I don't think it's likely.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
True, but for the most part, the smae line of thinking that leads one to question the existance of God will usually lead one to question the reality of things like AstrologyPerhaps, but what of atheistic religions? What of those atheists who insist that they know there is no God?

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Martinm
Perhaps, but what of atheistic religions? What of those atheists who insist that they know there is no God?

As for 'atheistic religions' that really depends on ones definition of religion. The bare handful of truly atheistic religions (ones that don't beleive in ANY sort of diety or 'Higher Power', such as certain forms of Buddhism) are, in my mind at least, really more akin to a philosophy than a religion, and they don't make any claims beyond 'This is right and that is wrong'. Since right and wrong are pretty much personal choices and opinions, there is nothing to test so a skeptical mindet doesn't really apply in those cases, IMHO.

I have never met an Atheist who claims to know with absolute certainty there is no god. So I can't speak for their motives. I, and every other atheist I know claim that there is nothing to suggest he does exist so there is no reason to beleive he does. It's just like I can't state with absolute certainty that leprechauns don't exist, but I have seen nothing tomake me think they do so I think it the most logical postion to take to say they don't

[Martin]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
The bare handful of truly atheistic religions (ones that don't beleive in ANY sort of diety or 'Higher Power', such as certain forms of Buddhism) are, in my mind at least, really more akin to a philosophy than a religion, and they don't make any claims beyond 'This is right and that is wrong'Buddhism? Reincarnation?I have never met an Atheist who claims to know with absolute certainty there is no godYou're very lucky.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Martinm
Buddhism? Reincarnation?

You may have me on that one, I don't really know too much about Buddhism. BUt I was under the impression that certain sects don't beleive inreincarnation. I might be wrong though.

B] You're very lucky [/B][/QUOTE]

Could be. I'll be the first to admit that the atheist community in Carson City Nevada isn't huge

[Martin]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
I'll be the first to admit that the atheist community in Carson City Nevada isn't huge Nor is the worldwide atheist community, more's the pity.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Martinm
Nor is the worldwide atheist community, more's the pity.

All too true I'm afraid.

[GrapeJ713]

* Christians proselytize; Jews don't

Even More Important!
NO JEWISH TELEVANGELISTS OR their non-tv'd little cousin evangelists and faith healers.

That is the main reason I find jews easier to deal with.
Living in Texas most of my life I didn't have much exposure to jews, so when I met some it was interesting hearing about thier religion because it was different than most of the xian franchises.
I find the underlying mythologies of religions interesting. Plus the jews are oppressed like us nonbelievers. In private I think it's real silly about no pork, shellfish, goat or cheeseburgers, but the jews don't foist thier beliefs on me. So I don't make fun of them in public like the jesus cult.


Don't forget:

* Christians try to push their religion into law; Jews don't (USA spec.)

The day Jews start trying to ban pork products and throw people in jail for putting cheese on their burger will be the day I start objecting to Judaism.

Amen hallelooya brother aerosolben!

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Clancy


Well, just as an example, not believing in any diety can happen in many ways (can even be replaced by some weird nonsense instead).

Lots of people around the world aren't theists. But that doesn't necessarily mean they;re all skeptics, or have even given their beliefs much thought at all.

I thought the very nature of skepticism was that you refused to believe something without evidence, but if you have a kind of atheist who adopts a doctrine that does not include God, instead of rejecting an existing one, then you do have an atheist who is not a skeptic. A devout Buddhist comes to mind.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Yes, and in general they are waaaaay to easy on Wiccan's and other neo-Pags despite the claims of neo-Pags being more worthy of dismissal.

[c4ts]

On a more serious note, we should bash Scientology a lot more. Since they're not allowed to view this website, we don't have to worry about Scientologist woo woo trolls pulling a Muscleman.

[Shroud of Akron]

i think the main reason for christian bashing is the non-tolerance of the christian theology. the non-tolerance extends to anything that isn't christian, including agnosticism/atheism. even liberal christian sects tell you that you're wrong if you don't believe as they do. they seem to "know" the truth, and that is all there is to it. even my mother, she gets all mad and tells me that i pick on christianity when i just question what she believes, which in turn i start to do. i will never tell my mom that she's wrong, and i never have, but she is not tolerant of my lack of faith, and assumes that i am attacking her faith.

[Torment]

Originally posted by Shroud of Akron
i think the main reason for christian bashing is the non-tolerance of the christian theology. the non-tolerance extends to anything that isn't christian, including agnosticism/atheism. even liberal christian sects tell you that you're wrong if you don't believe as they do. they seem to "know" the truth, and that is all there is to it. even my mother, she gets all mad and tells me that i pick on christianity when i just question what she believes, which in turn i start to do. i will never tell my mom that she's wrong, and i never have, but she is not tolerant of my lack of faith, and assumes that i am attacking her faith.

Couldn't have put it better myself. What really gets to me though is how many Christians tend to spout off their beliefs all the time as if they were fact, or at the very least make it evident that they believe them to be so and everyone listening should agree, but if I were to do the same I would end up dead in a dumpster within the week. I am actually 75% positive if I exclaimed my beliefs in public, none the less asserted them to be fact, I would wake up with a burning cross on my lawn the next morning.

Perhaps I need to move out of these Bible Belt communities?

[GrapeJ713]

Originally posted by c4ts
On a more serious note, we should bash Scientology a lot more. Since they're not allowed to view this website, we don't have to worry about Scientologist woo woo trolls pulling a Muscleman.

But, but married-to-John-Travolta-Hottie Kelly Preston says "Scientology Rocks!". She looks smart enough to know the truth;)

Since so many hollywood types are scientologists, we should try not to listen when they give opinions about anything important.

[evildave]

Here's another perspective:

I don't need to "bash" Jews, Muslims, Hindus, [other Christians], Raelians, Wiccans, New Agers, etc., because certain Christians spend their every waking hour doing nothing but this, even on public TV that children can watch.

No need for me to "stick it to" the "fringe groups", since it's being done expertly by many more who are far more capable of fomenting hatred than I ever could be.


Since Christians are the most likely to be dishing it out openly in the U.S., I think it's only equitable that I spend my time on them.

Here we have a group that's cohesive when they want to claim they are a political power (WE ARE THE MAJORITY), but divisive when you ask them about the details of their beliefs (NOT LIKE THOSE ***** WHO BELIEVE *****).

To a degree, I could probably leave the various Christians to rip out each other's throats like the good, god-fearin' law abidin' fellers they are, but honestly, it's just more fun to egg it on while not taking sides.

[Ben Shniper]

What about Islam? With 4 million Muslims in America, give or take, you'd think it would be more a topic of discussion.

I mean, these are the guys who talk about not just an afterlife, but a disgusting one with 72 virgins and rivers of wine (which they prohibit in the modern world).

Why not discuss Islam more? I have no problem with the debunking of Jewish beliefs, which are no more than ancient myths based on more ancient myths. Christians have it coming, since their religion, like Islam and not quite like Judaism is based entirely on it's adhearant's faith, not so much on deeds.

But what of Islam? Why not bash that more? Is it that it isn't well known about, or that you fear being called a Heretic if you insult their prophet?

-Ben

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Ben Shniper
What about Islam? With 4 million Muslims in America, give or take, you'd think it would be more a topic of discussion.

I mean, these are the guys who talk about not just an afterlife, but a disgusting one with 72 virgins and rivers of wine (which they prohibit in the modern world).

Why not discuss Islam more? I have no problem with the debunking of Jewish beliefs, which are no more than ancient myths based on more ancient myths. Christians have it coming, since their religion, like Islam and not quite like Judaism is based entirely on it's adhearant's faith, not so much on deeds.

But what of Islam? Why not bash that more? Is it that it isn't well known about, or that you fear being called a Heretic if you insult their prophet?

-Ben
Ben, there are websites and forums where you can bash muslims 24/7 why do you waste time here? you are a one topic poster, find a specialist site that caters for one topic posters.
troll on regardless.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Christians and Jews are equally silly. And deluded.

[Dancing David]

The buddha was a super sceptic, which led him to the belief that there is no 'self', and therefore no reincarnation. he sort of hints that our thoughts alone may live on and our actions have consequences that effect the future.
The Mahayana buddhists however took the stance that anything that could potentialy lead to enlightenment was a good thing and so the greater vehicle grew and grew. Hence the dieties in an athiest philosophy and the reincarnation stuff.

Peace
dancing david

[Ladewig]

I agree with aerosolben. When a bunch of Jews or Muslims say to themselves, maybe praying in school is a good idea, they go off and start a private school. They don't make a grab for the microphone at a football game. Jews and Muslims both believe in the Ten Commandments, but somehow it is always the Christian judges who want them posted in their courtrooms.

As for Scientology, maybe the peons are forbidden to look at this site, but the high mucky-mucks (aka clears) can do anything they want in the advancement of CoS. Celebrities like Kelly Preston are somewhere in between those two levels and are often kept unaware of the Church's run-ins with the law.

[Clancie]

So, the consensus to the question seems to be "Yes". And the reason for it seems to be that Christians deserve to be criticized more than other religions.

The suggested reasons for this seem to boil down mainly to, "In the U.S. Christians are so overwhelmingly the dominant religion and, since they seek to aggressively impose their religion on others--through proselytizing, through government, through public displays and statements--its only reasonable to criticize their beliefs and practices in response."

Okay. I don't actually disagree with this when it comes to people who are actually imposing their beliefs. But what about those (many) Christians who don't?

Granted, I live in Los Angeles, not a small Christian town. But I honestly meet very few Christians who try to force their beliefs--or even talk much about them.

My question is, if Christians don't try to impose their beliefs on you--just have them, enjoy them, even celebrate them, but with no intent to criticize or convert others--shouldn't we just respect their belief system and leave them alone, as most of us apparently do for those of other religions?

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Clancy
So, the consensus to the question seems to be "Yes". And the reason for it seems to be that Christians deserve to be criticized more than other religions.

The suggested reasons for this seem to boil down mainly to, "In the U.S. Christians are so overwhelmingly the dominant religion and, since they seek to aggressively impose their religion on others--through proselytizing, through government, through public displays and statements--its only reasonable to criticize their beliefs and practices in response."

Yep, that about boils down my view of the matter.

As for the non-agressive ones, I can't speak for anyone but myself. As for myself, my view on religion is basicly I'll leave thema lone if they leave me alone. One of my best friends is someone I refer to as the worlds least pushy Jehovahs Witness (She only ever brings up her religion if I do something like forgetfully invite her to a Birthday party and she is polite about it so I don't get rude back)

[hgc]

GrapeJ713:

In private I think it's real silly about no pork, shellfish, goat or cheeseburgers, but the jews don't foist thier beliefs on me. So I don't make fun of them in public like the jesus cult.
Nothing wrong with goat, kosher-wise.

[hgc]

I think it has everything to do with the claimed perogatives of the dominant religion, whatever the location.

In Israel, secular Jews (athiest or not) are in a big political struggle with the religious community over this. There is a political party, in the ruling coalition, whose whole raison d'etre is scaling back the power and privileges of the orthodox Jewish community.