Human Stun Gun

[ahoneycutt]

Browsing a website i tend to check out every day, I came across this (possibly not safe for work) link:

http://media.mensix.com/Death-Touch.php

The martial arts instructor in the video, Tom Cameron, claims to be able to knock people out using pressure points, and on top of that, be able to knock them out without even touching them. All yellow bamboo style. He doesn't say whether or not the victim has to be angry, however.

Anyway, this video is a really great example of the media actually being skeptical about something. Go Chicago :)

If anyone can find out more info on this guy, please post here...

-Andy

ETA: The video is safe for work by the way.

[case sensitive]

Now that was surprising. A person claiming to have supernatural powers, "proves" to have them by knocking out his own students... and then fails horribly in his attempts to knock other people out. And then... He makes up excuses and swears it really works. I guess Mr Randi never heard of anything like this before...

[Bikewer]

When Mr. (or is it Master...) Dillman was making the same claims (at least, he said he had to touch 'em) some years ago, it was a matter of some speculation in what passes for the martial arts press.

I sent in a proposal for a testing protocol for the fellow to use, involving taking a test group of non-MA athletes and telling them that a new massage therapy was going to be tried on them; they should report any effects. The volunteers would be screened to eliminate those with knowledge of martial arts, pressure points, etc.

Then Dillman (or anyone else making such claims) would, disguised as a therapist, be allowed to "manipulate" the pressure points. All under videotape and similar protocols.

The magazine in question printed about half my letter, and so far as I know, no one ever tried to run it.

[Phrost]

Heh:

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Links&file=viewlinkinfo&id=122

[Freakshow]

Heh:

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Links&file=viewlinkinfo&id=122 Proud to say I saw the video at Bullshido before I saw it in this thread. ;)

The most pathetic part of this whole video (and that's saying a lot) is one of the students at the end saying something like "If you don't believe it works, then come on down here and we'll be happy to knock you out." Well...that's what the reporters did. And your instructor failed. Go away and get a new hobby.

Of course, it could have been editing. Maybe the student said that before the instructor failed so spectacularly, and it was just edited into the end of the vid. But regardless, I hope he is very embarassed now. But I doubt it.

[Phrost]

One of these days we're going to buy a huge tour bus for Bullshido, load it up with real Martial Artists, and go around the country with a camera Michael Moore style.

[brodski]

So let me get this right. According to this guy the technique only "works" on about 40% of the general population, unless you are already trained in another martial art, then it doesn't work.
However if you pay for training in this technique, it will be effective against you 100% of the time.
Can anyone explain to me how this improves your defenses? :boggled:
And people pay for this?

[ahoneycutt]

The most pathetic part of this whole video (and that's saying a lot) is one of the students at the end saying something like "If you don't believe it works, then come on down here and we'll be happy to knock you out." Well...that's what the reporters did. And your instructor failed. Go away and get a new hobby.

...



I agree. And it's always amazing to me that even after it becomes clear that a person has no supernatural power, some people believe reglardless of the proof, or in this case, lack thereof.

[ahoneycutt]

One of these days we're going to buy a huge tour bus for Bullshido, load it up with real Martial Artists, and go around the country with a camera Michael Moore style.

For that I would buy the T-Shirt and DVD. I actually found randi.org by way of Bullshido. I love that website.

[ahoneycutt]

...I guess Mr Randi never heard of anything like this before...

Err, yeah, really nothing new here, just more woo. I was primarliy interested in showing a case of skeptical reporting which seems to be pretty uncommon.

[Phrost]

Yeah, we were going to send that woman a T-shirt for her efforts. Still might.

[c4ts]

One of these days we're going to buy a huge tour bus for Bullshido, load it up with real Martial Artists, and go around the country with a camera Michael Moore style.

Except much easier, since unlike Moore, you don't have to distort everything and edit the hell out of it until it's socialist propaganda.

[Tyltyl]

I just watched the video. Stunning people without touching them? That's usually called "bad breath"

[Anti_Hypeman]

I all the pressure point stuff bunk?

[c4ts]

Pressure points would contradict what is known about the human nervous system...

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

I know from my Ninjutsu and Kung-Fu classes that poking someone in just the right place can hurt like hell and provoke all sorts of responses, but if you're looking for a Vulcan nerve pinch then you're going to have to stick to sci-fi for now. Shame really, it would be a fun power to have and abuse.

[case sensitive]

I know from my Ninjutsu and Kung-Fu classes that poking someone in just the right place can hurt like hell and provoke all sorts of responses, but if you're looking for a Vulcan nerve pinch then you're going to have to stick to sci-fi for now. Shame really, it would be a fun power to have and abuse.

You can poke someone in the eye for example. Hurts...

Or of course the classic spot below the Adam's apple.

[Phrost]

I know from my Ninjutsu and Kung-Fu classes that poking someone in just the right place can hurt like hell and provoke all sorts of responses, but if you're looking for a Vulcan nerve pinch then you're going to have to stick to sci-fi for now. Shame really, it would be a fun power to have and abuse.

The temple is a "pressure point" in that if you hit it with sufficient force, you cause a knockout (ala Boxing). The testicles are a pressure point because they cause pain.

However, the context "Pressure Point" is usually used in generally means little known points along the body that when struck cause varying ill affects including instant death.

It's BS. Some parts of your body are more sensitive and vulnerable than others. But claiming some extra-medical system of meridians/chakra/points/etc that cause effects when struck is wishful thinking by people who want to become good fighters without ever actually having to really fight (or "spar").

[Amapola]

I'm going on memory here as I can not find the literature I was given during this class, but I did attend a seminar called something like "Pressure Point Control". A cop from LA taught it. This was nothing like "instant death" or the Vulcan nerve pinch........ it covered specific pressure points that the police use to control someone, or in some cases stop someone. It mainly targeted a certain blood vessel that carried a lot of blood to the brain, and involved pressure along various points in the body where it was more or less accesible. The instructor warned us that not all people were sensitive on all the points and to be prepared to switch quickly...... And I will also say, that when I was involved with the martial arts, the instructors usually told us not to mess around trying to "conrol" someone if we were attacked, but to escape at the very first opportunity. So these techniques would have limited use.

However, maybe I don't understand, and perhaps Phrost means another type of thing. The type of things I learned in martial arts were very clear and scientific, with plain explanations of how the technique worked, none of this mystical cr@pola. It's not magic, it's a lot of hard work.

[Adrian]

Did anyone notice that his "death touch" look a lot like Ryu's fireball from Street Fighter II? Maybe it would work better if he screamed "haduken"!

[Bronze Dog]

Did anyone notice that his "death touch" look a lot like Ryu's fireball from Street Fighter II? Maybe it would work better if he screamed "haduken"!
That's just silly! He should scream "Kaaaaa-meeeeee-haaaa-meeeee-haaaaaaa!"

[Freakshow]

I know from my Ninjutsu and Kung-Fu classes that poking someone in just the right place can hurt like hell and provoke all sorts of responses...
Hopefully those responses don't include a hard left hook to the jaw. ;)

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to "poke" someone in the right place when they are violently struggling against you?

[Freakshow]

And I will also say, that when I was involved with the martial arts, the instructors usually told us not to mess around trying to "conrol" someone if we were attacked, but to escape at the very first opportunity. Arrrrrgggghhhh!!!!!! This one drives me crazy. ;)

Escaping isn't always an option. I am in great shape (and also happen to be an experienced martial artist, although I don't train actively anymore), but getting away isn't even always an option for me. Not too long ago, I had an injured ankle (ironically, from working out to keep myself in great shape). It prevented me from running. I could walk fine. But if I ran just two steps, the pain flared up and I had to stop and limp or hop to somewhere that I could sit down.

If I would have been attacked while my ankle was healing, there would not be any escaping for me to do. It would be a matter of fighting (which can include weapons; not the TMA BS, but real weapons like pepper-spray and extendable batons) until HE escaped at the first opportunity. Or until he was rendered unable to fight anymore. Makes no difference to me.

I'm not sure how strong of a statement you were making there. If you were saying "escaping is preferable, but you have to be prepared to take the fight all the way if you must", then I can agree with you. But I have had some heated arguments with people (both on this board and in real life) who believe that they will never need to really fight, and that all they will ever need to do is a tiny bit of action, and then get away. They really believe that it will ALWAYS be an option. But it can't be counted on.

[Freakshow]

I'm going on memory here as I can not find the literature I was given during this class, but I did attend a seminar called something like "Pressure Point Control". A cop from LA taught it. This was nothing like "instant death" or the Vulcan nerve pinch........ it covered specific pressure points that the police use to control someone, or in some cases stop someone. It mainly targeted a certain blood vessel that carried a lot of blood to the brain, and involved pressure along various points in the body where it was more or less accesible. The instructor warned us that not all people were sensitive on all the points and to be prepared to switch quickly...... And I will also say, that when I was involved with the martial arts, the instructors usually told us not to mess around trying to "conrol" someone if we were attacked, but to escape at the very first opportunity. So these techniques would have limited use.

However, maybe I don't understand, and perhaps Phrost means another type of thing. The type of things I learned in martial arts were very clear and scientific, with plain explanations of how the technique worked, none of this mystical cr@pola. It's not magic, it's a lot of hard work.
The heart is contained within our ribcage, and the brain is only a foot away. There's only one place you can get to the arteries that supply blood to the brain, and that is on each side of the neck. Various techniques can get to them, but you need to be in some sort of grappling situation to make effective use of them.

The thing about the pressure-point method of self defense is that it is near-impossible to execute against a struggling opponent. People aren't going to stand there like a statue and let you work on pressure points. And if you are in a situation where you have great control over their body to where you actually could work on pressure points, then you would be better off using other submission techniques.

[Bronze Dog]

WARNING: Following post is based on something I've seen in videogames and movies, but not in real life, as far as I can remember.

I've heard about some "snake style" martial art that involves precision striking of pressure points. Any reality to it? If so, is it effective?

[Amapola]

Ouch on the ankle! No, a person can not run in that situation! :boggled:

What I was always taught was COMMON SENSE. A lot of guys start thinking they are superman, and stick around when they CAN escape. I was taught that was a silly thing to do. Every time I have been in a potential "situation" I have been able to glare, bluff etc. and walk away. (Whew!) The kind of thing I am talking about is having a clear avenue of escape, like me being able to walk away, but instead attempting to wrestle the bad guy to the ground, pin him there, and call the police on the cell phone. Well hey, real life is not the movies! Things don't always work out perfect like that, so if you can escape, do it. If you can't escape...... you defend yourself to the best of your abilities. And I do mean, the best.

This is one reason I think pressure point control can be sort of "pointless". If you are in law enforcement I suppose you would have occasion to use it, otherwise it is an interesting but not terribly practical thing.

[Freakshow]

Ouch on the ankle! No, a person can not run in that situation! :boggled:

What I was always taught was COMMON SENSE. A lot of guys start thinking they are superman, and stick around when they CAN escape. I was taught that was a silly thing to do. Every time I have been in a potential "situation" I have been able to glare, bluff etc. and walk away. (Whew!) The kind of thing I am talking about is having a clear avenue of escape, like me being able to walk away, but instead attempting to wrestle the bad guy to the ground, pin him there, and call the police on the cell phone. Well hey, real life is not the movies! Things don't always work out perfect like that, so if you can escape, do it. If you can't escape...... you defend yourself to the best of your abilities. And I do mean, the best.

This is one reason I think pressure point control can be sort of "pointless". If you are in law enforcement I suppose you would have occasion to use it, otherwise it is an interesting but not terribly practical thing. I understand where you going, and largely agree (except for the thing about calling the police while having a guy pinned). You expressed just what I was saying: Get away if you can, but be prepared to do what you must if you have to. Some think that they will always have the option of getting away, and never under any circumstances will they be forced into a situation where they must fight to the point of incapacitating an opponent. It is a delusional and dangerous belief.

And thanks for the sympathy for the ankle. :) I'll tell you what happened...I do a 36 minute jumprope workout. I put on a recording of a pro boxing match, and jumprope while they are fighting each 3 minute round, and rest for one minute between rounds when they are resting. For a 12 round fight, that's 36 minutes. If the fight I want to watch ends before 12 rounds, I'll either watch it multiple times, or I'll watch more than one fight.

I was REALLY pissed off one day, and needed an intense workout to get rid of the stress. I did not take the time to warm up, but instead just dove right into 36 minutes of jumprope. That was stupid. My achilles tendon was hurt for 2 weeks. But I learned my lesson. No matter how badly I want to start working out, I've got to take the time to warm up first. I of course knew that already. But sometimes we need a little punishment to remind us of the right thing to do .

[Freakshow]

WARNING: Following post is based on something I've seen in videogames and movies, but not in real life, as far as I can remember.

I've heard about some "snake style" martial art that involves precision striking of pressure points. Any reality to it? If so, is it effective?
Read the post just before yours. ;)
"The thing about the pressure-point method of self defense is that it is near-impossible to execute against a struggling opponent. People aren't going to stand there like a statue and let you work on pressure points. And if you are in a situation where you have great control over their body to where you actually could work on pressure points, then you would be better off using other submission techniques."

[Bronze Dog]

Yeah, I can see the problem is apparent from my armchair (which was also the case for laser-blade-oriented Armored Cores until I saw some game videos). Just asking about a specific style that may or may not exist as depicted. I suppose I'm really asking if anyone knows about that snake style, and if it's different from what I think.

[Freakshow]

Yeah, I can see the problem is apparent from my armchair (which was also the case for laser-blade-oriented Armored Cores until I saw some game videos). Just asking about a specific style that may or may not exist as depicted. I suppose I'm really asking if anyone knows about that snake style, and if it's different from what I think.
Yes, such a style exists, and it has similarities to what you are thinking. Google for it, and you should come up with a lot of info there.

[Bronze Dog]

I will use Google before asking stupid questions.
I will use Google before asking stupid questions.
I will use Google before asking stupid questions.
I will use Google before asking stupid questions.
I will use Google before asking stupid questions.
I will use Google before asking stupid questions.

-Bart Simpson

[Winslow Leach]

This is so similar to the "church people" that fall backward cause they think the're supposed to.

[vbloke]

just a thought...

His students fall back like they've been poleaxed.
Fair enough.

They try the technique on other martial artists. Nothing happens.
Fair enough.

He claims that trained martial artists are less suseptible to his technique, as they have control of their energy.
Fair enough.

He runs a martial arts school and his pupils are being trained in martial arts.
Surely they should be immune from his "power" as much as the other martial artists, or is he admitting he's a crap teacher and a charlatan?

[Bikewer]

In our police "defensive tactics" training, we use the PPCT system. That stands for Pressure Point Control Technology. The guy who developed it has considerable martial arts experience.

It's a comprehensive system, and pressure point manipulation only comprises a small portion. The manipulation of these various pressure points is ONLY for so-called "pain compliance" against non-agressive resisters. As in, the arrested subject holding on to a phone pole....

It's stressed that too much pressure will cause a violent reaction on the part of the suspect. That is, he may start being an agressive resister.

[Freakshow]

In our police "defensive tactics" training, we use the PPCT system. That stands for Pressure Point Control Technology. The guy who developed it has considerable martial arts experience.

It's a comprehensive system, and pressure point manipulation only comprises a small portion. The manipulation of these various pressure points is ONLY for so-called "pain compliance" against non-agressive resisters. As in, the arrested subject holding on to a phone pole....

It's stressed that too much pressure will cause a violent reaction on the part of the suspect. That is, he may start being an agressive resister.
Very well put, Bikewer. :)

[ShowMe]

Watched the video. Amusing, to say the least.

I liked the part where he lightly slaps her and tries to show how this "proved" something. And she says "You just smacked me upside the head!"

He seemed to thing this was something exceptional & not a normal reaction to being smacked.

[Jyera]

This is so similar to the "church people" that fall backward cause they think the're supposed to.

I'm interested to know more.

[Freakshow]

I'm interested to know more. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&q=benny+hinn+fall

[snex]

anybody else from chicago want to go to this place with me and embarrass the people there?

by the way, check out what the straightdope says about dim mak. id post a link, but theres a restriction against new members; just google it.

[Psiload]

I have an observation about the two martial arts "gurus" that teach this... this... style(?) of... of... whathaveyou.

They're fatsos. Dilman and Cameron... matching beer bellys.

No offense to the portly people among us, but c'mon... how can you take a fat martial artist seriously?

It's like when Elvis used to get up on stage all bloated and ripped out of his gourd and start giving martial arts demonstrations and bragging about his "black belt"... his XXXL black belt.

Who the hell is buying into that?

[Phrost]

Dilman's next on our target list. He's been itching for a Bullshido expose on his crap.

[Zep]

Wish I was there!

Incidentally, Dilman has an interesting "out" for when this no-touch power doesn't work - you can negate it by where you put your tongue in your mouth. Or by alternately lifting up each big toe. Or by holding Dumbo's magic feather too, I suppose.

Con-man extrordinaire, and I hope he gets what he deserves - to be laughed out of the profession of martial arts.

[fsol]

Derren Brown does a bit on one of his TV shows where he hits people without touching them. He even does it when he is standing behind them. I think he also made people fall over church style too in one of his other shows.

[jmercer]

I have an observation about the two martial arts "gurus" that teach this... this... style(?) of... of... whathaveyou.

They're fatsos. Dilman and Cameron... matching beer bellys.

No offense to the portly people among us, but c'mon... how can you take a fat martial artist seriously?

It's like when Elvis used to get up on stage all bloated and ripped out of his gourd and start giving martial arts demonstrations and bragging about his "black belt"... his XXXL black belt.

Who the hell is buying into that?
Oh, I dunno. I'd probably take Sammo Hung pretty seriously. And I sure wouldn't want to get slapped or slammed by a pro Sumo wrestler, either. :)

Your point is appropriate; fat people usually have endurance problems in a physical confrontation. Then again, most fights usually aren't endurance matches. Whoever gets in first with the best stuff usually wins.

And I agree with the pressure point comments above; with a few exceptions, it's mostly about causing pain. (Although I'm surprised that no-one listed the solar plexus as a nerve strike!) The idea that you can depend on pressure points in a confrontation is unrealistic, to say the least. In example, there's a nerve just below the elbow in the forearm. If you press it with your thumb, it hurts; sure, I've seen people fall to the floor when it's shown to them the first time. I've also seen people stand there wondering what the heck they were supposed to be feeling. :D

And how many times can you get that kind of grip in a fight? Heck, if I can grab your forearm, I can think of much more interesting things to do than stand there digging my thumb into it looking for a nerve... but I sure wouldn't pass up a chance to poke and/or pound the solar plexus. ;)

Joint-locking/breaking and submission holds are a helluva lot more effective in general, I think.

(edited to add quote from PSILOAD)

[emperorchaos]

Your point is appropriate; fat people usually have endurance problems in a physical confrontation. Then again, most fights usually aren't endurance matches. Whoever gets in first with the best stuff usually wins.


Even though I note that you say "usually" I am a fat guy. It may just be my health is good or something. I have hypothyroidism but my blood pressure has always been good. I still have a lot of endurance (I used to say it was from "Dwarven blood"). But beyond that, I still have quick reflexes. When I get in fights (which, unfortunately, I have... originally the aggressors were some religious types that disliked my being an atheist), I don't rely solely on my endurance nor my quick reflexes (for a fat guy), as my opponent could be have both as well. No sir, I have one more trick up my sleeve. I'm a masochist! :D

The only person in recent memory who has bested me in a fight was my younger brother. He's my complete opposite: Catholic, athletic, muscular physique, and well, he's got somewhat of an advantage as a police officer in training.

[emperorchaos]

Dilman's next on our target list. He's been itching for a Bullshido expose on his crap.

I've been trying to go to your site but it appears to be down presently.

I was wondering though...does it only concern present martial arts or does the site also deal with "legends"?

I have a bet to settle with a friend of mine concerning Musashi Miyamoto. I was wondering if there was any truth to the legend that, using a bokken, Musashi defeated an opponent wielding a nodachi.

Wikipedia also states the above. I'll try your site again later.

[Bikewer]

Don't you understand that these fellow's Chi has sunk to their bellies?

They actually used to run a little ad in the back of MA publications for a book on "The Power of the Belly". Included was an illustration of a very pot-bellied warrior type.

Wonder what happens when your Chi rises to your head....

[luchog]

I have a bet to settle with a friend of mine concerning Musashi Miyamoto. I was wondering if there was any truth to the legend that, using a bokken, Musashi defeated an opponent wielding a nodachi.
From my reading, that appears to be fairly well documented, at least as well as anything is from that period of history. He spent the majority of his life training and was considered the most skilled swordsman in Japan; as well as being physically larger and more powerful than most of his contemporaries. And I know from personal experience, that you can put a respectable edge on a suitable hardwood. Not enough to shave with, but certainly more than adequate to pierce clothing and flesh, and possibly even light armour.

Nothing terribly paranormal about this, if he did, since most duels were not "to the death"; and were generally merely exhibitions of skill that were later formalized into modern Kendo. Bokken were commonly used by both duelists. He is said to have actually killed a sword-weilding opponent with a bokken, but I haven't found much solid corroboration of that. Chances are that the legend grew out of the common use of bokken in formal duels, and his exceptional skill.

[William Smith]

One of these days we're going to buy a huge tour bus for Bullshido, load it up with real Martial Artists, and go around the country with a camera Michael Moore style.

Surely a lot of us would appreciate this effort. You'd have the chance to challenge all those allegedly abled "sonic boomers", "sho ryu kens" and "tatsu maki sen pu kyakusters".

Perhaps you can even fight Blanka and Dhalsim ("yoga fire"). But don't cross E. Honda's flight path. And please don't hurt Chun Li. :)



Shoudn't an airtight documentary about this "Human Stun Gun" et al. nonsense make you eligible for an award? Like a Pulitzer? Yellow Bamboo my tuchus.

By the way, I really enjoyed your video about "Chrono". The facts of the story behind it made me feel uneasy, but the bedroom routine cracked me up for good.