Dealing with "Bible Belt" attitudes while teaching my son

[Chicken Pot Pie]

I consider myself a "good skeptic" and was even partially raised as such, father being interested in church, mother thinking it was "hocus pocus". I am glad my mother's concept prevailed, but I am pained by the scars left from being "outside the group" when I was small. In addition to not having Sunday school in which to learn social skills, I withdrew somewhat in other situations, because was always afraid somebody would ask what church I went to, and find out that I didn't go.

I think your ideas about how to introduce critical thinking to children are wonderful. But do not neglect to address the social aspects of being a child who is different, in a country where people confuse being moral and good with believing in religion.

It is important to equip the child to deal with the reaction of other children or even teachers who may not accept a skeptical stance. Being a skeptic - particularly a religious skeptic, may become increasingly difficult given the growth of "religious righteousness" in this country.

This post I plucked from another thread is exactly the situation we are in. Let me briefly tell you about us.

My husband and I are from northern states. Here in the south we experienced culture shock when attending church. I've mostly avoided attending since the late 70's due to being told things like "You aren't saved because you weren't saved in OUR church." Of course, as a kid, church functions were social events, ways to meet boys, get out of the house, etc. I did attend Bible studies, and knew more scripture than most of these folks here who "denied" my salvation. In trying to search for "what was the truth", I did find contradictions (such as the differences between, say, United Baptists and General Baptists). My older kids attended church with their dad (my ex) and they continued to "pray that mom would see the way..."

We lost son # 4, age 14, to a drowning in April. Naturally, we wondered why god would take this young life. We began to question our non-attending-"faith". I've been reading the weekly commentary for over a year, due to my older sons who finally figured out they'd rather be skeptics than believe in "magical thinking". They "turned me on", so to say. I had thought I was agnostic for quite a while, but now I know.

That leaves my present dilema. I need to be careful because of #5 son who is in 6th grade. So many things here revolve around religion. Just today, at his football game, we were invited to a revival and to Sunday service because one of his little friends has been "called to preach"! If we announced our new position, we would be shunned in many ways. And we still have folks "comforting" us with their prayers over our loss...

I always hated hypocrites, but I feel the need to stay "in the closet" for now, though I want to immediately begin showing my youngest son that critical thinking is better than what we've had. He's seen Penn and Teller's BS shows, and thinks that it's cool to uncover psychics and such. My older sons can help some, but I'd love some resources, online or book form, to guide us through this transition. Any practical advice is welcome as well.

By the way, his team won first place after winning today's game. Tournament is next week!

[goodgirlonhere]

I too am a "transplant" to the South. Religion here is more than just a belief it is a lifestyle.;) It seems alot of churches are not for worshiping but for gossip. The church is used as a "social event" and some kind of proof your a "good person". Oh, you can cheat on your taxes and your wife but if you go to church your alright!:cool: I've noticed that many sermons seem to preach like everyone is a recovering drug/alcohol addict. You can sin but find God and he will let you in!!!
Mind you I am a Christian.:) I believe in God and will tell ya to your face I do! However, your dilema seems not to be with God but with the people who run his "organization". The solution may be simply to find another church or even change from Baptist to Nazerene? Whichever church more closely represents your values. Kids love church when they are young. There are lot's of oportunity in churches. Your kids should continue to go to church until they are comfortable with their religous beliefs. They may decide to continue in their adult hood or take the same path you have taken. Allow them to do this but give them the tools to decide.
Part of Religion is having skeptism about it. That is why "Faith" has something to do with it!;)

[Chicken Pot Pie]

Thanks for your thoughts, but I'm not chosing any church at all. I'm asking for resources on critical thinking. I want my son (and my family) to be able to think for himself with no woo woo "higher power" being held over his head as if it's the only way he can be considered a "good person". We know to stress science and math. My sons have recommended some good books - Mr. Randi's, Carl Sagen, and others. I'm searching posts here for other ideas, websites, and experiences others may have with a situation such as ours. In a small Bible-belt town it's not easy to be freethinkers!

[CFLarsen]

Just a "few" books... :)

Allen, Steve
Dumbth: The Lost Art of Thinking With 101 Ways to Reason Better & Improve Your Mind

Browne, M. Neil & Keeley, Stuart
Asking the Right Questions: A Guide to Critical Thinking

Carey, Stephen S.
A Beginner’s Guide To Scientific Method

Carroll, Robert
The Skeptic's Dictionary: A Collection of Strange Beliefs, Amusing Deceptions and Dangerous Delusions
www.skepdic.com

Dawkins, Richard
Unweaving the Rainbow

Gardner, Martin
Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science

Gardner, Martin
Science - Good, Bad and Bogus

Hines, Terence
Pseudoscience and the Paranormal

Humphrey, Nicholas
Leaps of Faith - Science, Miracles, and the Search for Supernatural Consolation

Mackay, Charles
Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

Marks, David
The Psychology of the Psychic

Park, Robert
Voodoo Science - The Road from Foolishness to Fraud

Plait, Philip
Bad Astronomy

Randi, James
An Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds, and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural

Randi, James
Flim Flam! Psychics, ESP, Unicorns and other Delusions

Randi, James
The Faith Healers

Randi, James
The Mask of Nostradamus: A biography of the World's Most Famous Prophet

Randi, James
The Truth about Uri Geller

Sagan, Carl
The Demon-Haunted World

Schick, Theodore, Jr. & Vaughn, Lewis
How to Think About Weird Things: Critical Thinking for a New Age

Shermer, Michael (ed.)
The Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience

Shermer, Michael
How to Debate a Creationist: 25 Creationists Questions with 25 Evolutionists Answers

Shermer, Michael
How We Believe : Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God

Shermer, Michael
The Borderlands of Science: Where Sense Meets Nonsense

Shermer, Michael
Science Friction : Where the Known Meets the Unknown

Shermer, Michael
The Science of Good and Evil : Why People Cheat, Gossip, Care, Share, and Follow the Golden Rule

Shermer, Michael
Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time

Shermer, Michael & Grobman, Alex
Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say It

Wiseman, Richard
Deception & Self-deception - Investigating Psychics

Wiseman & Morris, Robert L.
Guidelines for Testing Psychic Claimants

Wynn, Charles M. & Wiggins, Arthur W.
Quantum Leaps in the Wrong Direction : Where Real Science Ends...and Pseudoscience Begins

[Chicken Pot Pie]

Thanks, CFLarsen. I recognize a few of these titles, but there are a lot more that I've never heard of. Enough to kep me busy for a few hours (*wink*)

[CFLarsen]

Thanks, CFLarsen. I recognize a few of these titles, but there are a lot more that I've never heard of. Enough to kep me busy for a few hours (*wink*)

That's just the beginning.

Why not consider attending The Amazing Meeting in January? You'll meet Randi, Shermer, Plait, Nickell and a lot of other skeptics from all over the world.

[Chicken Pot Pie]

Attending TAM is something I'd love to do with hubby and all 4 of my sons and my daughter-in-law. It sure would make a nice "Christmas present"!

[CFLarsen]

Attending TAM is something I'd love to do with hubby and all 4 of my sons and my daughter-in-law. It sure would make a nice "Christmas present"!

There are also scholarships, so the possibilities are many.

[Amapola]

I can see your dilemma, because I grew up like this. My father was a scientist who started his career at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City, UT....... hoooh boy. We did NOT go to church. As a child, I wanted so badly to fit in...... But what happened instead was that I found activities that had little or nothing to do with religion. In my case, I joined 4-H. There I was accepted for my enthusiasm about livestock.

I would suggest checking out your community for other activities that have nothing to do with church or religion, which you and your son might enjoy. You might at first think, "Impossible!". However here is one example: see if there is a mycological society there. Mycology is the study of mushrooms. Sounds weird, but it is really fun. You go hiking through the woods looking for mushrooms, and then bring them back and learn to key them out and identify them. This is great because it gets kids outside and teaches them about science. They learn not to call something a "field mushroom", they call it Agaricus campestris. It's not a "toadstool", it's Boletus edulis. In the meantime, since you are out there, why not buy a good field book on trees or flowers, and identify them too?

You may find there are many non-religious activities that your son can participate in, and therefore not feel shunned. My family eventually moved to Atlanta, GA (my father was working for Georgia Tech for a while) and my interest in horses allowed me to be accepted, despite our not going to any church at all.

[Chicken Pot Pie]

Great suggestion, Amapola. Today we went to Yahooligans, the jokes page. He was readding the riddles, many we all know from when we were kids, but some had an almost "logical" answer. I suggested we see if we could figure them out ourselves, and after a few tries, he was getting the right answers. I let him know he was using logic to find the humorous answers, and he was tickled. That was a very good lesson in my mind, having the reward of cracking up his dad along with using his own noodle to work out an answer. As an aside, I'm also a clown and soon to be substitute teacher (I hold an Associate of General Studies) and a musician. My son has started band this year, and that will keep him involved, too. We live near a university, so I wouldn't doubt that we might find a mycological socitey. We're in the vicinity or Mammoth Cave National Park, and I attended college with some of the cavers (or spelunkers, whichever term you like best, lol.) ;)

[Chicken Pot Pie]

However here is one example: see if there is a mycological society there. Mycology is the study of mushrooms. Sounds weird, but it is really fun. You go hiking through the woods looking for mushrooms, and then bring them back and learn to key them out and identify them. This is great because it gets kids outside and teaches them about science. They learn not to call something a "field mushroom", they call it Agaricus campestris. It's not a "toadstool", it's Boletus edulis. In the meantime, since you are out there, why not buy a good field book on trees or flowers, and identify them too?



When mowing our back yard my husband and son found several huge mushrooms of some sort. I got to use my new word "mycology"! (Amapola, are you sure you're not psychic? (wink) )

[Amapola]

:D I've had people tell me I am psychic...... and when I roll my eyes and say "NO - I am NOT psychic!!" they tell me I really AM psychic, but I am in denial. :p

So you have to tell me more!!! Did the mushrooms have gills, or maybe little pores?? Did the gills touch the stalk, or were they detached from the stalk or were they moving down the stalk?? OK, I know you did not notice these things this time - but notice them next time! :D See how fun mycology is?

[Belz...]

I always hated hypocrites, but I feel the need to stay "in the closet" for now, though I want to immediately begin showing my youngest son that critical thinking is better than what we've had. He's seen Penn and Teller's BS shows, and thinks that it's cool to uncover psychics and such. My older sons can help some, but I'd love some resources, online or book form, to guide us through this transition. Any practical advice is welcome as well.

Not an easy situation. If you've read last week's commentary and my bit about my own conversion, you can see that I've passed through a problem of sorts myself. Beign surrounded by people who believe, who want you to believe, who can't understand that you don't believe and who think that you really do believe is not only complicated, but frustrating.

Not mentionning it is not hypocrisy. You're protecting your interests and those of your children. In the muslim world a lot of folks don't believe, but they don't dare talk about it lest they be stoned by other people who are too affraid to allow themselves to doubt.

...I guess I don't actually have anything constructive to say, but I can relate.

[Ed]

(standing near the wall, sipping a drink, watching Claus put the moves on Kabookie......)

[Chicken Pot Pie]

The mushrooms were whitish with yellow tops, though I didn't get the best look at them. they had "ribs" under the top. They were quite large. My neighbor told my husband they were dryland fish (morells?) but I've eaten those with my dad as a teen in the 70's, and I'm sure they were tall and tapered like "christmas trees" and a bit darker. I assumed they were, in my very limited knowledge, some type of "toadstool", the kind my parents told us were poison. I promise to look more carefully next time.

[Chicken Pot Pie]

Not an easy situation. If you've read last week's commentary and my bit about my own conversion, you can see that I've passed through a problem of sorts myself. Beign surrounded by people who believe, who want you to believe, who can't understand that you don't believe and who think that you really do believe is not only complicated, but frustrating.

Not mentionning it is not hypocrisy. You're protecting your interests and those of your children. In the muslim world a lot of folks don't believe, but they don't dare talk about it lest they be stoned by other people who are too affraid to allow themselves to doubt.

...I guess I don't actually have anything constructive to say, but I can relate.

Yes, especially as I'm going to start substitute teaching toward the end of the month. I have to smile and nod when they teachers go on about their churches, and invitations, since most know we don't attend anywhere here.

In fact, when our son drowned in April, (he would have been 15 on the 15th of this month) we had to hold his service at the high school auditorium as there were over 700 in attendance, with the football team lining our way in and his closest teammates and 3 coaches as pall bearers. We had a pastor from the large Babtist church in town, selected by my husband who had heard his radio messages before. The only other service held in that school was the founder of Dollar General Markets, so we feel comforted that our son meant enough to folks here to make the exception for him. They even postponed tje "CATS" testing for that week. He was an outstanding athelete, football and basketball, 6'2", 175lbs. The high school football coach wanted him to be the starting QB for the Varsity team, though he would have only been a Freshman. He was benching 195, curling 55lbs (his biceps were HUGE), wore a size 13 shoe, a bonafide "hottie" according to all the girls, lol, and was 14-1/2 years +2 days old when he drowned due to hypothermia. Hot day, 55 degree water - bad mix. (Sorry to go off topic, it's just it's really hard knowing we could have been celebrating a birthday tomorrow... It has been awful.)

The good news is that his little brother's team won the season (little league football) last week and are playing the #2 team tomorrow, and my older sons and daughter-in-law are all coming to make a day with us and watch the game!

I appreciate all the comments everyone is posting. Personal experiences give me a bit of insight for coming up with how I can deal with this all, and I'm glad no one thinks I'm bad for not just blurting it out. I really need this subbing job, and hope to be called often. I don't want to cut off my nose to spite my face...

[jimtron]

... I believe in God and will tell ya to your face I do! However, your dilema seems not to be with God but with the people who run his "organization". The solution may be simply to find another church or even change from Baptist to Nazerene? Whichever church more closely represents your values. Kids love church when they are young. There are lot's of oportunity in church...
Part of Religion is having skeptism about it. That is why "Faith" has something to do with it!;)

goodgirl: I respect your faith, and I see that you're skeptical as well. But I've never understood the idea of choosing a church that represents one's values. Shouldn't you choose a church that interprets the correct scripture most accurately? What if one hates homosexuals--should they find a church that preaches that being gay is a terrible sin? What if you are obsessed with wealth--should you find a house of worship that says that it's ok to accumulate vast amounts of money? What if you screw people over often and you don't want to feel guilty about it--should you go to a church (as described above) where you're told that as long as you attend church then your sins will be washed away? If you choose a church because you feel that its values are aligned with yours, how do you know those are the values that God wants you to have?

If one believes in God, and that there may be a heaven and/or hell, don't you want to look critically at all the different religions, and denominations of those religions, and choose the one that seems most authentic, that is, most accurately reflects God's intentions, or how He/She wants us to live (assuming there is a god)? Because the different interpretations of the many scriptures of the many religions often contradict each other. So if you really want to go the heaven (I do, if such a thing exists), isn't it crucial that you obey the "correct" rules? Does it matter if it's Christianity, or Judaism, or Islam, or Scientology, or Rastafarianism?

[SezMe]

kabookie, I have a son and it is hard - nay, impossible - for me to imagine the pain you must feel from the loss of your son. I feel for you.

I would feel the same way if your son had been 5'-5" tall, weighed 95 pounds, was pimply, failed to make it on the chess club, was considered a nerd by all the girls and only 3 people showed up at his service. His premature death was a tragedy in any case. Sorry.

[American]

My advice - say one thing and do another.

You owe them nothing, and they will soon have to face that if you keep breaking promises that had no contractual value to begin with. (Plus, the frustration you might cause them will feel very good....)

[Belz...]

I believe in God and will tell ya to your face I do! However, your dilema seems not to be with God but with the people who run his "organization". The solution may be simply to find another church or even change from Baptist to Nazerene? Whichever church more closely represents your values.

So.... your belief in God has nothing to do with the truth ? It's just there to make you feel better ? That doesn't sound right.

[Chicken Pot Pie]

SezMe, thanks for your kind words... Today was actually not so bad, though little brother's team lost. All the boys and my daughter -in-law were here and we had a fun time. :)

[Chicken Pot Pie]

My advice - say one thing and do another.

You owe them nothing, and they will soon have to face that if you keep breaking promises that had no contractual value to begin with. (Plus, the frustration you might cause them will feel very good....)

LOL, I suppose that frustration would be equal to the frustration they cause me... is that able to be measured? (wink)

[Chicken Pot Pie]

Today my son brought a book for me to read. It's Richard Dawkins' "The Blind Watchmaker". I'm going to read it tonight. I'm so glad my sons introduced me to the JFRE site and now the forums. You've all given me great ideas. Thanks once again.

[CBL4]

Teach your son to be self confidant enough to stand for his own values. I know that is easier said than done but my parents did it for me. I do not think "staying in the atheist closet" is a good example to set. Somehow, you need to show him how to take pride in skeptism without being overbearing. If he is a good athlete, this should make it easier for him.

CBL

[Chicken Pot Pie]

Yes, CBL4, that is our goal, though we are also overcoming our own former Christian beliefs. We live in a town that also has young drivers flying their rebel flags on their pick up trucks... We even heard racial remarks thrown at people who came for a local fair, which makes our town appear backward in more than one sense of the word. At his age, we are trying to find good resources to help him see for himself that the limits set by a communtiy such as ours won't get him very far in the "real world".

[Mephisto]

I'm not advocating any particular stance, although my stance regarding religion and politics is widely known, but I do commend you for your newfound skepticism. Here are a few books that have helped me since I shed the bonds of devout Catholicism (I still don't even know who Cathol is).

"The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer

"The Ordeal of Change" also by Eric Hoffer

"Essays in Skepticism" by Bertrand Russell

and "History of God" by Karen Armstrong

Good luck and be careful. My family was once threated by the devout for suggesting that money (5 million) earmarked for a commemorative statue to the unborn dead was a ridiculous waste of money that could better be spent on children in current need.

[Chicken Pot Pie]

I'm not advocating any particular stance, although my stance regarding religion and politics is widely known, but I do commend you for your newfound skepticism. Here are a few books that have helped me since I shed the bonds of devout Catholicism (I still don't even know who Cathol is).

"The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer

"The Ordeal of Change" also by Eric Hoffer

"Essays in Skepticism" by Bertrand Russell

and "History of God" by Karen Armstrong

Good luck and be careful. My family was once threated by the devout for suggesting that money (5 million) earmarked for a commemorative statue to the unborn dead was a ridiculous waste of money that could better be spent on children in current need.


Mephisto, I will run to the library to see if I can find some of these. Thanks again.

[Mephisto]

Mephisto, I will run to the library to see if I can find some of these. Thanks again.

They should be easy enough to find, kabookie. Incidently, they are not particularly "heavy" reading but I think Hoffer's views of society and mankind in general are fairly accurate. Hoffer was a migrant farm worker (among other things) with a keen eye and a sharp mind. His philosophies are based on watching man react with mankind and I think his assertions hold true especially today.

Mephisto

P.S. I love your handle - I'm somewhat of a "Japanophile myself (we have tons of shoji screens and black lacquer in our home, plus a Japanese garden in our small back yard). Are you also familar with Noh plays?

P.P.S. I can already hear everyone snickering, "NO PLACE?"

[Chicken Pot Pie]

Mephisto, I used the word "kabookie" for my baby niece's bottom when she'd fall on it when learning to walk in 1977. A few days later, Kabuki Theater was a segment on "Good Morning America", and we had a great laugh. When I learned to juggle in 1999, I dressed my two youngest sons, (Chris was 9, the other was 5) and myself as clowns for Halloween. We came back to hand out candy and I juggled as the kids came by on our busy street. Cars were honking and waving, cheering, and one kid asked if I'd do that for his birthday party! So I researched it on the net and by December was ready to clown. I wanted a name that no one else had - no "Bubbles, Patches, Lollypop", etc. Then, it hit me - if you go to this website:
http://www.obesityhelp.com/morbidobesity/members/profile.php?N=Buchholz957236110

you will see my real name and how well it fits with the kabookie name. There is also a link to my very-much-in-need-of-an-update webpage about kabookie.

I will look up the Noh Plays. I also have a Lockhorns comic with the wife doing her makeup and her husband asks, "Are you getting ready to go out or performing Kabuki?" I had to clip it!

Also, clowning, twisting balloons and facepainting help me focus on the kids (and adults) who give me smiles and hugs, which eases my grief in more ways than one. Chris could spin a plate I got a Mooseburger Clown Camp - while he rode his bike! (Okay, I'll get off my memory lane now, but thanks for the short walk down that path.)