Info on Homeopathy market and industry

[Jyera]

1.How big is the Homeopathy market?
Revenue
Sales volume.
Number of products.
Point of sales.
Advestisement budget.
Number of advertisment.

2. How big is the Homeopathy industry?
Number of company.
Number of sales person.
Amount of training.
Production capacity.
Number of major brands.
Number of Homeopathic doctor.

I'm curious and though it would be good to gather info to have pragamatic sense of the reality of Homeopath industry.

[Kumar]

Bit old report.

The International Market

Homeopathy Widely Accepted Worldwide

Homeopathy in Europe

A $17.5 Million Market in Canada

Popularity in Latin America

Consumer Advertising

Little Spent on Mass-Market Advertising


The Consumer

Consumer Demographics and Attitudes

Consumer Reliance on Alternative Medicine

Over 6 Million Consumers Use Homeopathic Remedies

Typical User Is Over 30, Well-Educated, and Female

Homeopathy and Health and Natural Food Store Customers

Homeopathy and Readers of Health Magazines

The Customers of Hahnemann Pharmacy

Many Consumers Seek Remedies for Chronic Conditions

Two-Thirds Use Homeopathy Without Medical Supervision
http://www.marketresearch.com/map/prod/122160.html

Questions and Answers About Homeopathy
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/

[Mojo]

Typical User Is Over 30, Well-Educated, Female and gullible.Edited to complete profile of "Typical User."

[Zep]

...or Pakistani and Indian, it would seem!

Do you hear that, Dr. MAS and your gone friends?

[anor277]

...or Pakistani and Indian, it would seem!

Do you hear that, Dr. MAS and your gone friends?

Actually, Dr Mas is a little bit more forthcoming at the moment on the nch forum. Currently he argues that if you add 10-45 g of belladonna to a remedy (that is a mass 1000's of billions times lighter than an electron) then how can a skeptic argue that there is no belladonna in the solution? (see this thread: http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=131. I am still a bit unconvinced but then I am a close-minded materialist.

[Charlie in Dayton]

Actually, Dr Mas is a little bit more forthcoming at the moment on the nch forum. Currently he argues that if you add 10-45 g of belladonna to a remedy (that is a mass 1000's of billions times lighter than an electron) then how can a skeptic argue that there is no belladonna in the solution?


...uhhh...waitaminnit...

I'm not an atomic physicist, and I don't play one on TV, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but if something "...is a mass 1000's of billions times lighter than an electron...), then it can't be anything the size, mass, or composition of an atom, let alone a molecule of belladonna, Bill Gates, bullsqueezin's, or anything else similar.

So if the 'practitioner' in question is actually not manipulating substances, but individual quarks, gluons, muons, and other oddly-named subatomic particles, why does the resulting mix supposedly still act like it's supposed to, when in actuality its chemical composition is nothing like what was planned?

[Jyera]

This is a thread on the Homeopathy market and industry.
I hope we keep the discussion on the detail of the science to the minimium.
I would like to encourage the realistic discussion of the real situation of homeopathy in the market.

You might ask why I do not place it in a Social section.

The reason is that.
I think the people in the science forum here are concerned about the integrity of the "science" behind the homeopathy.

I think a scientist aren't too worried that we have got the science wrong due to lack of information. Since as science progresses, it is upgraded. But a scientist wouldn't like science to be associated with lies and fraud. And would not like science to be asssociated with lies for 200 years.

Scientists in both homeopathy industry as well as outside it, needs to protect the integrity of science.

Based on the info Kumar has kindly included, Homeopathy industry is big, strong and active.

I know of no formal Anti-Homeopathy group strong enough to match the Homeopathy industry in terms money, asset, people as well as geograpical spread.

Moreover, if there is a anti-homeopathy group, are they allowed to cause the collapse of the Homeopathy industry without considering the livelihood of all those who are within the industry?

I do not see any main stream doctors association bothering to hit out at Homeopathy who are obviously "invading" their turf. Eg. Homeopath calling themselves "Dr.". Eg. Homeopath filling in the unfulfill gaps left by other complacent industry.

I'm sure that there are some parts of the Homeopathy industry that is worth keeping. Eg. the training infrastructure, the factories, the brands name they have build up. The sympathy and good will of customers. The employment they have provided in a country.

Homeopathy seems to have a growing presence.
Either it is here to stay or it is better substituted.
Either way, people have to fulfill their needs. Their need to earn a living, the need to part with their hard earned money to find a cure for their aliments.

A realistic situation requires realistic action, discuss too much science only educate. I bet many people within the industry are already well educated about the strength and weaknesses of their product. They don't need science, they already have the evidence. There is something undeniable that prevent them from leaving to protect the integrity of science.

[anor277]

...uhhh...waitaminnit...

I'm not an atomic physicist, and I don't play one on TV, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but if something "...is a mass 1000's of billions times lighter than an electron...), then it can't be anything the size, mass, or composition of an atom, let alone a molecule of belladonna, Bill Gates, bullsqueezin's, or anything else similar.

So if the 'practitioner' in question is actually not manipulating substances, but individual quarks, gluons, muons, and other oddly-named subatomic particles, why does the resulting mix supposedly still act like it's supposed to, when in actuality its chemical composition is nothing like what was planned?

Precisely, it has no chemical composition and no possibility of chemical change, much less that of an alkaloid with a mass billions of billions times greater. Many homeopaths (or at least some on that board), however, regard the addition of 10-42 g to a remedy as a case of QED, "our remedies are material" (NB I made an order of magnitude error in my initial post, no that it matters).

[Wudang]

Moreover, if there is a anti-homeopathy group, are they allowed to cause the collapse of the Homeopathy industry without considering the livelihood of all those who are within the industry?


Just like the police shouldn't cause the collapse of the hitman industry without considering the livelihood of all those within the industry?



Either way, people have to fulfill their needs. Their need to earn a living, the need to part with their hard earned money to find a cure for their aliments.


What does a "cure for their ailments" have to do with homeopathy?


A realistic situation requires realistic action, discuss too much science only educate. I bet many people within the industry are already well educated about the strength and weaknesses of their product. They don't need science, they already have the evidence. There is something undeniable that prevent them from leaving to protect the integrity of science.

Yes, it's called the profit motive.

[Jyera]

Just like the police shouldn't cause the collapse of the hitman industry without considering the livelihood of all those within the industry?.
I know what you mean. But this hitman analogy isn't representative of homeopathy industry. Would you like to consider another more realistic ones?

I think that you pecieve them as they are "obviously bad", (like hitman). But for an "obviously bad" industry to grow so big until it cannot be removed quickly. I thought something is very wrong.

What is wrong?
What does a "cure for their ailments" have to do with homeopathy?.
I know many people (including me) are sceptical about the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies. But that do not change people's need. The needs, even if it is psychological need, needs to be fulfilled. Someone is not doing their job well enough to to fulfill these needs. There is need to be cured, need to get well, need to get well fast, need to be assured of good health.
Need to be lied to about a rosy promise.

Yes, it's called the profit motive.

[Wudang]

I know what you mean. But this hitman analogy isn't representative of homeopathy industry. Would you like to consider another more realistic ones?



Another industry that makes it's money by a negative impact on people's health? Hmm. Crack cocaine?



I think that you pecieve them as they are "obviously bad", (like hitman). But for an "obviously bad" industry to grow so big until it cannot be removed quickly. I thought something is very wrong.

What is wrong?


The lies of the homeopathic practitioners and the failure of those entrusted with public education and education thereof to be frank about the issue.


I know many people (including me) are sceptical about the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies. But that do not change people's need. The needs, even if it is psychological need, needs to be fulfilled. Someone is not doing their job well enough to to fulfill these needs. There is need to be cured, need to get well, need to get well fast, need to be assured of good health.
Need to be lied to about a rosy promise.

Well that's different from "a cure for their ailments". So does homeopathy help:
need to be cured, No.
need to get well, No.
need to get well fast, No.
need to be assured of good health.No.
Need for a nice chat Maybe.

[Mojo]

Another industry that makes it's money by a negative impact on people's health? Hmm. Crack cocaine?Or tobacco.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Or tobacco.

Good one. Same defence of "personal choice".

[Mojo]

Based on the info Kumar has kindly included, Homeopathy industry is big, strong and active. But its proponents, like most proponents of CAMs, have a remarkable tendancy to plead poverty when it comes to funding any proper research into whether it actually works. I'm sure that there are some parts of the Homeopathy industry that is worth keeping. Eg. the training infrastructure, the factories, the brands name they have build up. The sympathy and good will of customers. The employment they have provided in a country. But if it doesn't actually work, all these are either worthless or based upon fraud. For example, what is the point of training people in techniques that don't work?

[SpaceFluffer]

Good one. Same defence of "personal choice".I hope you're not suggesting that homeopathy=smoking in terms of the 'users' choice...

With cigarettes, they do exactly what they claim to, bad though those things may be. If homeopathic medicine actually did what it claimed to do, none of us would have a problem with it. I don't believe you can use the same argument to say that consumers should be protected from cigarettes in the same way that they should be protected from quackery.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I hope you're not suggesting that homeopathy=smoking in terms of the 'users' choice...


True.

[Mojo]

With cigarettes, they do exactly what they claim to, bad though those things may be. Perhaps nowadays, but the tobacco industry spent several decades claiming that they didn't.

And what about "You're Never Alone With A Strand?" Did they ever provide any evidence to substantiate this claim? ;)

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Perhaps nowadays, but the tobacco industry spent several decades claiming that they didn't.

And what about "You're Never Alone With A Strand?" Did they ever provide any evidence to substantiate this claim? ;)

He was a homeopathically diluted friend. Invisible, but incredibly powerful.

[SpaceFluffer]

Perhaps nowadays, but the tobacco industry spent several decades claiming that they didn't.True, and the tobacco companies are despicable.

So we would like to protect consumers from Homeopathic products. Agreed, but what does this have to do with a statement that we should also protect consumers from smoking?

[Bronze Dog]

Difference between smoking and homeopathy: Smoking causes positive physical harm. Homeopathy often causes negative physical harm (Such as convincing people to drop real medicine). Both do damage to people's bank accounts, though.

[SpaceFluffer]

Difference between smoking and homeopathy: Smoking causes positive physical harm. Homeopathy often causes negative physical harm (Such as convincing people to drop real medicine). Both do damage to people's bank accounts, though. That's a good way to put it, BD. I'm against the sale of something that causes negative physical harm, but recognize that individuals should have the freedom to buy something that causes them positive physical harm. It seems that at least one other person in this thread equates the two, unless I'm very much mistaken.

FYI, good Scotch also causes positive physical harm and damages one's bank account.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Does any medical industry have a higher markup than homeopathy? I very much doubt it.

~~ Paul

[Jyera]

About possible higher markup...

How much is Homeopathic Remedy sold compared, to Normal Prescribed medication?

[Mojo]

About possible higher markup...

How much is Homeopathic Remedy sold compared, to Normal Prescribed medication?Since preparations of higher potency than 24x/12c contain no actual remedy, the mark-up on them is pretty much infinite. ;)

[Jyera]

I have visited doctor, given zero medication.
Charged higher than normal charges. (Because Specialist)
And observed like his animal on experiment.
Told to come back to be observed.
Told that we don't know the cause.
Told me no known effective medication.

Consider no medication with high charge, the markup is infinity.

Consider I have had to pay to avail myself for HIS little scientific observation.
I don't know how to calculate the markup.
:( But think the markup is more than infinity :)

On top of that, I didn't get any advise on nutritional supplement or diet change that might aid my own holistic recovery.

Okay then markup is Infinity+Plus+Plus. :)

[Jyera]

Who is the Foremost authority of Homeopathy.
Who is the highest ranking Homeopath that has since turned over a new leaf?

[Mojo]

Who is the Foremost authority of Homeopathy.Dr. MAS!

:dl:

[Rolfe]

I have visited doctor, given zero medication.
Charged higher than normal charges. (Because Specialist)

Okay then markup is Infinity+Plus+Plus. :)I think you need to think about the concept of a "consultation fee".

This is a common misconception among animals owners consulting veterinary surgeons. "I was charged £50 for this tiny bottle of ear drops!!!" Well, it's possible that the ear drops have an extremely expensive and hard-to-manufacture ingredient, but far more likely the detailed invoice would read

Consultation fee £40
Ear drops £10

A lot of this problem would be eliminated by making detailed break-down invoices standard. And would demonstrate that you're not mainly paying for the treatment, but for the expertise in diagnosing the case and selecting the right treatment. And of course, if the diagnosis has not yet been reached, it may not yet be appropriate to prescribe any treatment. However, the professional consultation fee is still payable.

Now, get real. We're talking about mark-ups on dispensed medicines here. not consultation fees.

Rolfe.

[Jyera]

Rolfe, I understand we are talking about markup on dispensed medicine.
In my post you quoted. I was just trying to be funny.
But it is my real encounter.

Seriously.

Remedy should be compared apple to apple.
We need to identify one illness as a basis for comparison.

[MRC_Hans]

I think you need to think about the concept of a "consultation fee".

*snip*
Rolfe.Might I recap an old, but appropriate joke:

Man drives his car into a service station, the engine is running rough.

The mechanic opens the hood, looks and listens to the engine for a minute, then fetches a small hammer, reaches in and gives some part of the engine a small rap with the hammer.

Immidiately, the engine purrs like a kitten.

"That'll be 20$, sir." says the mechanic.

Man: "Whaaat? 20 bucks for a small rap with a hammer???"

Mechanic: "Oh, no, sir. The rap with the hammer is 10c. Knowing where to rap is $19.90"

Hans

[Mojo]

One of our local chemist's shops has a big neon sign reading "HOMOEOPATHIC PHARMACY" in its window. Mrs. Mojo went in with a prescription on Saturday. Sure enough, the pharmacy was entirely free from either of the drugs on the prescription. ;)

[Wudang]

Might I recap an old, but appropriate joke:
Hans

Sounds like it was based on James Whistler's response to Ruskin. From
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13973/13973.txt


"When Whistler was being examined during the trial, Sir John Holker,
the Attorney-General, asked, "How long did it take you to knock off
that 'Nocturne'?"

"I beg your pardon?" said the witness.

Sir John apologized for his flippancy, and Whistler replied: "About a
day. I may have put a few touches to it the next day."

"For two days' labor you ask two hundred guineas?"

"No, I ask it for the knowledge of a lifetime!"