PDA

View Full Version : Humans prevented glaciation?


CBL4
17th October 2005, 03:28 PM
I recently saw William Ruddiman lecture and I am reading his book Plows, Plagues and Petroleum.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0691121648/qid=1129583493/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-7993194-6941760?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
He has developed the hypothesis that farming has effected climate for the last 8000 years. He is a good lecturer and author.

From the Economist in 2003 (before the book was published):
[A]n equally intriguing idea put forward at the [American Geophysical Union] meeting is that the spread of agriculture caused climate change.

In this case, the presumed culprit is forest clearance. Most of the land cultivated by early farmers in the Middle East, Europe and southern China would have been forested. When the trees that grew there were cleared, the carbon they contained ended up in the atmosphere as carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas. Moreover, one form of farming—the cultivation of rice in waterlogged fields—generates methane, another greenhouse gas, in large quantities. William Ruddiman, of the University of Virginia, explained to delegates his theory that, in combination, these two phenomena had warmed the atmosphere prior to the start of the industrial era by as much as all the greenhouse gases emitted since.

Dr Ruddiman's hypothesis is grounded on recent deviations from the regular climatic pattern of the past 400,000 years. This pattern is controlled by what are known as the Milankovitch cycles, which are in turn caused by periodic changes in the Earth's orbit and angle of tilt toward the sun. One effect of the Milankovitch cycles is to cause regular and predictable changes in the atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide and methane. These changes can be followed by studying ice cores taken in Antarctica.

According to Dr Ruddiman, the changes seen in the cores are as regular as clockwork until about 8,000 years ago. At that time carbon dioxide levels begin to rise at a point when they ought to start falling. About 5,000 years ago there is another upward deviation, this time in methane levels. The former, he contends, coincides with the beginning of extensive deforestation associated with the spread of agriculture into Europe and China. The latter coincides with the invention of “wet rice” farming. In combination, he calculates, these upward deviations make the atmosphere about 0.8°C warmer than it would otherwise be at this point in the Milankovitch cycles, independently of any greenhouse warming caused by industrialisation. That has been enough to keep parts of Canada that would otherwise be covered in glaciers, ice-free.

Of course, this is a difficult hypothesis to test. But Dr Ruddiman does have a test of sorts. Three times in the past 2,000 years, there have been periods of cooling (most recently, the “little ice age” of the 17th and 18th centuries). These, he notes, followed the three largest known periods of plague, when the human population shrank in various parts of the world. The first period was a series of plagues that racked the Roman empire from the third to the sixth centuries. The second was the Black Death and its aftermath. The third was the epidemic of smallpox and other diseases that reduced the population of the Americas from some 50m to about 5m in the centuries after Europeans arrived, and which coincided with the little ice age. In each case, a lot of previously farmed land turned back into forest, sucking carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere and cooling the climate. As environmentalists are wont to observe, mankind is part of nature. These observations show just how intimate the relationship is. http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2299998

When I asked him how his hypothesis had been received, he said the only serious rebuttal was that deforestation would not produce enough CO2. He said that other scientists believe coal burning (especially in China) would provide the rest.

I do not claim that his hypothesis is true but it is intriguing. He is a reputable scientist who has been studying climate change for decades. He has been published in magazines such as Scientific American, Nature, and Science. He previous research includes how monsoons affect methane in the atmosphere.

ETA: He has been on a book tour and spoke in front of the Skeptic Society. He will be in NY next week.
http://www.nyas.org/events/eventDetail.asp?eventID=4671&date=10/25/2005%206:30:00%20PM

CBL

Soapy Sam
17th October 2005, 11:24 PM
Interesting idea.
My only quibble without having read him is that ice core data is notoriously open to selection effects.
Ice fields move. Even where there is no visible lateral movement, there is plastic flow at depth. The deeper you go in a core, the less reliable the data will be because of this.
So shallow data- ie the last few millennia, tends to be a lot more precise than deeper data.
So I wonder how he corrects for what might be major sampling bias?
Unquestionably there's a lot still to be discovered about how global cimate alternates from warm to cold. The Milankovitch cycles are not the full answer, because their effect depends on the pre-existing situation- eg warm oceans can produce a rapid build up of ice, if there is already a large ice cap in existence when orbital position produces high winter insolation and low summer insolation. It's the old trick with the saucers of warm and cold water in the freezer.

DevilsAdvocate
18th October 2005, 12:42 AM
It's the old trick with the saucers of warm and cold water in the freezer.I'm not familiar with this trick. Care to explain?

Jeff Corey
18th October 2005, 06:43 AM
Google Mpemba Effect.

Correa Neto
18th October 2005, 06:53 AM
I have not read the book, so be warned that the following may be completely redundant, since the author may have made this...

Examination of ice cores from different locations (of course, far enough from each other, say from different glaciers) could minimise the sampling bias. Also, examination of deep-sea (recent) sediments can provide additional datasets for comparsions. Foramnifera can be quite helpfull (even tough I must confess I find micropal quite boring).

Yes, nobody asked me, but IŽll tell it aniway- I do think the scientists who claim we are already making climate alterations are correct. And that we need to take actions to minimize the impact, but quite possibly nothing as radical as some "greens" propose. :duck:

This said, I must add that I have little experience with the younger geological periods and then return to my Archean to Eocambrian niche...

CBL4
18th October 2005, 10:38 AM
Having seen his charts, I find the ice cores to be weak support for his plague argument. He shows the CO2 from two ice cores (one was called the Law Core and I forget the other one's name.)

He said one was very accurately dated but it did not go back very far. This one appears to show a drop when various plagues decimated the Americas. The other one went back farther but he said it was not accurately dated. It appears to show the older plagues but the American plagues did not match up very well.

To give him credit, he admits all this and wants additional research. He always refers to his ideas as hypotheses and admits they are not yet proven. In other words, he is acting as a scientist.

CBL

Iamme
18th October 2005, 07:00 PM
Per Jeff Corey's suggestion.........

..but if you are lazy to read up on it, the bottom line is it is said that, believe it or not, the warm water will freeze the fastest.

Now, regarding the CO changes in relation to deforestation. Do you realize that around the turn of the century...possibly later...the OXYGEN level in the atmosphere was suposed to be around 50%?(so I heard one day on the radio)...and now it's only 16%? And that's why I am gasping for breath on those hot days. What this has to do with glaciers is..*I* don't know..but it may very well mean SOMEthing.

Soapy Sam
18th October 2005, 07:54 PM
Means your numbers are wrong. But hyperventilate anyway. I find it helps.:)

CN- Yes, for some reason, ice cores get the publicity, though most of the O18 isotope studies are either from sediments or benthonic vs planktonic forams. Ice cores from glaciers are generally pretty hopeless for this I believe , because there's been too much movement and penetration of surface water via cracks. It 's the big stable domes they want- of which there aren't too many. The same cores tend to show up in the literature again and again. Still, you work with what nature provides.

In your ancient niche- what's the latest on snowball Earth models?

CBL4
20th October 2005, 04:16 PM
Soapy Sam,

Do you know if the elevated CO2 and methane levels that he mentions are generally accepted? If so, are there any alternative causes that have significant support.

BTW, I do find the plague part of the book the weakest because it does rest on the ice cores which are iffy. But since I learned about the weakness of the ice core dating from him, it shows that he is aware of it as well.

CBL

Soapy Sam
21st October 2005, 07:15 PM
Honest answer is I don't know. What I know of Holocene climate is based on geology rather than chemistry, and it's all twenty years out of date.
If you mean do Milankovitch cycles allow predictable changes in CH4 and CO2 levels, I'd say yes and no.
Yes they must be one of the causative factors in variation and being theoretically calculable, the timing of those changes should also be calculable.
No, because orbital cycles are only one variable and they are not in synch- precession of the equinoxes, degree of axial inclination and orbital eccentricity all vary at different rates, producing a variation in insolation rates and levels that verges on the chaotic. Superimpose that on the pre-existing temperature situation, which also varies with time and you have a lot of room for argument about what caused what.
Then there's the other, intermittent CO2 source- vulcanism. Even that isn't simple. Everyone says CO2 is a geenhouse gas, but global temperatures fall after major eruptions which produce CO2, but also dust.
(I think the climatic effect of volcanoes tends to be underestimated).

Even more confusing is that it may sometimes be ice action that triggers the eruption, rather than the reverse. The weight redistribution due to ice forming or melting can affect magma chamber pressures.

I'd stress. Ruddiman was writing on these matters when I was an undergrad. He knows whereof he speaks, I don't doubt. But nobody understands present day climate completely. The climate of 130,000- 10,000 years ago is at least as difficult to comprehend. Errors will be big.

Dorian Gray
22nd October 2005, 12:34 PM
Logically, since the hot water must pass through the same temperature that the cold water starts out at, the cold water has a 'head start' and will freeze first. The hot water freezes faster because the water evaporates, even in the freezer, meaning a lower volume to freeze. That's my theory, anyway.

CBL4
24th October 2005, 05:20 PM
Soapy Sam,

Thanks for the info. You seconded my idea that Ruddiman has a plausible idea but that it is unproven.

It is nice to be able to find people here with the background to evaluate ideas.

CBL

CBL4
24th October 2005, 05:29 PM
I found a link to a paper by Ruddiman from Climatic Change magaizine:
http://courses.eas.ualberta.ca/eas457/Ruddiman2003.pdf

It includes most of the stuff from his book in brief but more scientific terms.

CBL