US Marines beg for food.

[a_unique_person]

http://www.theage.com.au/text/articles/2003/04/13/1050172479248.htm


War wives forced to take charity
Date: April 14 2003


Oceanside, California

As US soldiers battle remnants of Iraq's fallen regime, their wives struggle against money woes that have forced some to resort to hand-outs to survive.

"I know several wives of marines with small children who line up at churches for grocery handouts," said Natalie Castro, 19, wife of a marine private.

"Military salaries are so low that they are almost impossible for a family to live on," she said.

Mrs Castro, who has a seven-month-old boy, is one of 130,000 residents of Oceanside, which is dominated by marines from nearby Camp Pendleton.

Privates and corporals, who make up 60 per cent of the US Marine Corps, take home about $US800 ($A1320) a month.

"After tax and after paying for the car and its insurance and medical bills for the baby, there's nothing left," Mrs Castro said.

"My husband and most of his friends all have second jobs or work whenever they can just to survive, which seems really wrong to me given the job they're doing in Iraq."

[JAR]

I would recommend that women not marry men who have a job which requires them to be away from home for ridiculous periods of time. When a person joins the military, he/she is aware of the fact that he/she might be sent away to fight in a war. That is what the military is there for. The idea that a person might live through a war and have stories to tell that beat any tale about how it rained when someone went camping is part of the appeal of joining the military.

[Goshawk]

"After...paying for...medical bills for the baby... "Er, my understanding that part of the rationale for the low salaries paid to military men was that they and their families get all kinds of medical benefits. Is this not so?

http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:m8XxSjAyylYC:https://lnweb1.manpower.usmc.mil/manpower/mi/mra_ofct.nsf/mrp/deers%2Bfaqs+marine+corps+medical+benefits&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Under the provisions of Title 10 U.S.C., a child born out of wedlock to a male member is entitled to medical benefits if: 1) Paternity had been judicially determined; or, 2) the child is residing in the household of the member (or a household maintained by him), and the child is receiving over one-half of his or her support from the member. The Marine Corps has no authority to waive these requirements.So is Mrs. Castro just too clueless to know her baby is entitled to medical benefits? Or did Hubby just fail to sign her up for a health plan?

http://www.usmc-mccs.org/employ/bene_health.html

[swellman]

Originally posted by Goshawk
Er, my understanding that part of the rationale for the low salaries paid to military men was that they and their families get all kinds of medical benefits. Is this not so?

http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:m8XxSjAyylYC:https://lnweb1.manpower.usmc.mil/manpower/mi/mra_ofct.nsf/mrp/deers%2Bfaqs+marine+corps+medical+benefits&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
So is Mrs. Castro just too clueless to know her baby is entitled to medical benefits? Or did Hubby just fail to sign her up for a health plan?

http://www.usmc-mccs.org/employ/bene_health.html [/B]

Perhaps you should read your own link more carefully.

"Under this plan, each member has an annual deductible and specific co-insurance limits."

Those deductibles add up fast with a child. Throw in non-covered items and that fabulous $800/month doesn't sound so fabulous.

I'm betting you never served in the military...

[EvilYeti]

Big deal, when I started working after college I had little money left after rent, car payments, insurance, etc. And I didn't have kids! Life is tough, if you can't afford them, don't have them.

[JAR]

Originally posted by EvilYeti
And I had don't have kids! Life is tough, if you can't afford them, don't have them.

That's the spirit. People are not obligated to go out of their way to help other people pass on their genes.

[peptoabysmal]

Yeah, but just think, they get to play with some really cool high tech gadgets that cost millions of dollars.

Seriously, they really do give their lives for their country. We owe them more than this.

[Tony]

Could this be caused by the high cost of living in So Cal?

[davefoc]

I'm not sure why you started this thread AUP. To listen to heartless conservatives like myself explain that most of us don't have much money when we're starting out and that the first thing that most of us do when we're starting out is not to have a child, because we understand there are consequences to that decision.

How long is a soldier a private? Is it possible that a child could have been put off until the soldier had received his first promotion? And yeh, it doesn't seem fair that the kid is struggling while is dad is off to war, except that his dad has been getting combat pay, his dad has just been relieved of any income tax on the money he earns while we're at war, so maybe his dad could send a few bucks home.

OK, we probably have a little common ground on this one and I my not be as completely heartless as the above suggests, but let's hear what you think we should do about this.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by davefoc
I'm not sure why you started this thread AUP. To listen to heartless conservatives like myself explain that most of us don't have much money when we're starting out and that the first thing that most of us do when we're starting out is not to have a child, because we understand there are consequences to that decision.

How long is a soldier a private? Is it possible that a child could have been put off until the soldier had received his first promotion? And yeh, it doesn't seem fair that the kid is struggling while is dad is off to war, except that his dad has been getting combat pay, his dad has just been relieved of any income tax on the money he earns while we're at war, so maybe his dad could send a few bucks home.

OK, we probably have a little common ground on this one and I my not be as completely heartless as the above suggests, but let's hear what you think we should do about this.

I was just amazed that a soldier cannot feed his family. The modern US army has the most amazing range of hitech weapons, for which cost is no object. But it cannot look after it's own people with dignity.

The friendly fire deaths were also in line with this neglect. There are systems out there that work much better than relying on a dayglo piece of plastic, but they were deemed to be too expensive.

Just one of those quirks of modern life that interests me.

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by Tony
Could this be caused by the high cost of living in So Cal?

Oceanside's a dump, ergo very affordable. There is lots of low-cost military housing there as well.

Most of the grunts blow their paychecks on booze and smokes anyways, so its no wonder there is nothing left over for food.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by EvilYeti


Oceanside's a dump, ergo very affordable. There is lots of low-cost military housing there as well.

Most of the grunts blow their paychecks on booze and smokes anyways, so its no wonder there is nothing left over for food.

Interesting, all of a sudden our fighting heroes are grunts who blow their money on booze and smokes and live in a dump.

[LTC8K6]

There are several additions to pay that are left out, such as BAS and BAQ/BAH, and a few others. I received BAS when I was a private living on post, even though I could have eaten at the mess hall.* I was granted it because of my odd duty hours. It was around $200 bucks a month I think, but that was several years ago. Looking at new tables, it's around $250 now.

Basically, it was a few bucks a day to eat with.

BAQ is for housing, but I am not familiar with how that works exactly, as it never applied to me.

I also got FDP, foreign duty pay, while in the ROK. Can't remember how much that was. It wasn't much.

Not sure which of these apply in the article quoted, but some of them should.

Could be combat pay, too.

Okay, I dug up my DFAS W-2 from my first year in the Army, 1991.
$8,210.86 in wages. This was as an E-1 for part of the year and an E-2 for part of the year. No BAS or BAQ since I had to live on post and I pretty much had to eat in the mess hall. This was about 9 weeks of BCT at Ft. Leonard Wood, and the rest of the year at Lowry AFB going to school.

*EDIT This was as an E-4 (SPC) at FT. Eustis, actually.

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Interesting, all of a sudden our fighting heroes are grunts who blow their money on booze and smokes and live in a dump.

Teenagers, heroes or not, tend to blow their money on booze and smokes and live in crappy housing. I know I did. This should come as a surprise to no one.

[tygirwulf]

I didn't know they made so little money. I guess I got the impression from my Marine ex-boyfriend that soldiers got paid a lot. But he was a first lieutenant, so I guess that explains the (enormous) difference.

[jayrev]

Originally posted by LTC8K6

BAQ is for housing, but I am not familiar with how that works exactly, as it never applied to me.


BAQ, or Basic Allowance for Quarters is given to military members who do not live on base. Most bases have a limited supply of on base housing for families. Those who don't live on base are given BAQ, plus a Variable Housing Allowance determined by the local cost of living.

You can see the BAQ chart here: http://www.dtic.mil/perdiem/2003bah2.html

And look up VHA by zip code here:
http://www.dtic.mil/perdiem/bahform.html

[Richard G]

When I was in, I qualified for, and recieved food stamps. That was in addition to my BAQ and VHA.

Think about this next time when you lefties want to cut the defense budget. Everytime a proposed pay increase is proposed in Congress, demonrats fight tooth and nail to stop it.

They can forever KMA.

[Crossbow]

When I was in the military some 20 years ago (seesh, time flies), the low pay of the enlisted was a real problem for those with families.

Even senior enlisted people often had second jobs; which was not not such a problem when the ship was in port for several weeks, but when at sea, there was no way to work a second job. However, there were a few who did things like crafts, sell insurance, sell drugs, etc. to make extra money. There were even a couple who had to go AWOL just to work in order to make enough money to get by.

Anyway, I am glad that I got out because now I make more money at a 40hr/week job than I would have if I stayed in and made it all the way to E9. Plus, I do not have to urinanalysis tests, work 12 on/12 off, 7 days a week on some old, dirty, noisy, crowded, crampt, hot, smelly, unsafe ship filled with hot-tempered sailors and marines.

[Doubt]

Me thinks that story is a bit fact challenged.

Here is the basic pay table for the enlisted ranks:

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/pay/blenlistedbasepay.htm

And here is a set of links about all the pay tables:

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/pay/blpay.htm

The lowest pay grade is E-1. An E-1 with no time in service makes $1064.70 per month. That is the smallest amount that any US serviceman is going to get paid before taxes. This does not even get into the VHA, BAQ and several other things that can add to soldiers pay if they have dependants.

If you are single with no dependants, that money can go a long way. If you have a wife and kids, you are not going to do so well in the lower ranks. Some people can get by on the pay and some cannot. The three big factors involved are where you are stationed, how many dependants you have, and how good are you at handling your money. A few of these people would be using handouts even if you doubled their pay.



When I enlisted in late ’81 my pay as an E-1 was $513.00 per month. When I left at the end of ’85 I was an e-4 making a little over $800.00 per month. The vast majority of that $800.00 was spent on German beer. With no dependants, I was doing OK. The base pay has doubled since then.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Crossbow
When I was in the military some 20 years ago (seesh, time flies), the low pay of the enlisted was a real problem for those with families.

Even senior enlisted people often had second jobs; which was not not such a problem when the ship was in port for several weeks, but when at sea, there was no way to work a second job. However, there were a few who did things like crafts, sell insurance, sell drugs, etc. to make extra money. There were even a couple who had to go AWOL just to work in order to make enough money to get by.

Anyway, I am glad that I got out because now I make more money at a 40hr/week job than I would have if I stayed in and made it all the way to E9. Plus, I do not have to urinanalysis tests, work 12 on/12 off, 7 days a week on some old, dirty, noisy, crowded, crampt, hot, smelly, unsafe ship filled with hot-tempered sailors and marines.

Not to mention that those ' hot-tempered sailors and marines. ' are often ' smelly ' also..:D

I was an enlisted man in the Navy for 20 years, and yes, tygirwulf, there is a huge difference in pay between the officers (your 1st Lt.) and enlisted. Even the lowest paid officer makes more than the highest paid enlisted man. So you can imagine how little the lowest paid enlisted man makes.

I was a CPO for 12 years, which meant I had a lot of young people who worked for me. And I had several who qualified for food stamps and other government aid.

When I was stationed aboard the USS Barry (DDG 52), exactly one third of our crew had letters of indebetness from creditors. We discharged several for financial irresponsibility. They are a security risk.

Most of the indebtedness was due to impulse buying. Around military bases, there are a wide variety of sharks just waiting to take advantage of the young, dumb boys from Iowa who don't know any better. I've seen interest rates as high as 75 percent! There are all kinds of loopholes around the usury laws.

These kids were buying cars and clothes and jewelry and personal electronics that they could ill afford. I use to rant and rave at my troops on a regular basis not to sign any piece of paper with a salesman until they brought it to me first, so I could look at it and have our legal people check it out. But they rarely listened. When a young kid is sitting there looking out at the nice shiny used car on the lot, or the sparkling piece of bling-bling on the counter, his stupid impulses take over.

Also, many navy wives are known to be financially clueless. They will max out the credit cards while the husband is at sea, and then hubby comes home and the fecal matter hits the rotating blades. I had my own troubles with my second wife in this area.

And there is a certain number of navy wives who party, party, party while hubby is away.

And there are young, low ranking enlisted sailors with four kids. That is tough stuff.

So all of that is on them. It is no one else's fault.

But with all that said, the Navy had to cut back more and more and more during the 90s. Since personnel are the biggest expense, that is always where the deepest cuts are made, and they are made first.

A sailor at sea is working seven days a week, eighteen hours a day, and getting paid about half of what his civilian counterpart makes working a 40 hour week.

And VHA and BAQ do not even come close to making up for the expense of living in some areas.

The much vaunted medical benefits are slowly being eroded. Families which are not stationed near a major military medical facility are having to pay more and more medical expenses out of their own pocket.

But civlian doctors and hospitals are also pulling a fast one that not many people are not sharp enough to catch. And this really burns my tail feathers.

They have tried it on me a few times, but I always caught it. And don't be surprised if they pull the same scam under your own civilian medical plan.

Here is how the scam works:

Under the medical TRICARE system, those medical facilities which accept Tricare have an agreement with the insurance people. Certain services will cost a set rate. For instance, labor and delivery. Let's say it is supposed to cost a total of $5000 for a normal delivery. Of course, it does not appear as a single line item. You have separate charges for the pediatrician, the nurses, the anesthetist, the drugs, room charge, etc., etc. But let's just say it is supposed to add up to about five grand.

Now the hospital will actually charge, oh, eight grand, say. And they send a "this is not a bill" to you and the actual bill to Tricare.

Tricare comes back to the hospital and says, hey, according to our agreement, you are only supposed to charge five grand, so that is what we are paying you.

Now the hospital knows this, and as far as the law goes, they are supposed to accept that and move on. But what they will often do is turn around and bill the family the missing three grand. And some people are stupid enough to pay it. And that is because by the time they receive and actual bill, they have seen so many "this is not a bill's" and other pieces of paper in their mail, that it gets very confusing. And they see huge dollar amounts on these pieces of paper, so that when they finally get a real bill with a much smaller amount on it, they are almost relieved to pay it.

It's an evil scam.

I exaggerated a bit. Normally the ovebilling is in the neighborhood of a few hundred dollars. They tried that stunt on me twice. But I knew what to do about it. Many, if not most, don't.

Originally posted by Doubt
Me thinks that story is a bit fact challenged.

Here is the basic pay table for the enlisted ranks:

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/pay/blenlistedbasepay.htm

And here is a set of links about all the pay tables:

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/pay/blpay.htm

The lowest pay grade is E-1. An E-1 with no time in service makes $1064.70 per month. That is the smallest amount that any US serviceman is going to get paid before taxes. This does not even get into the VHA, BAQ and several other things that can add to soldiers pay if they have dependants.

If you are single with no dependants, that money can go a long way. If you have a wife and kids, you are not going to do so well in the lower ranks. Some people can get by on the pay and some cannot. The three big factors involved are where you are stationed, how many dependants you have, and how good are you at handling your money. A few of these people would be using handouts even if you doubled their pay.



When I enlisted in late ’81 my pay as an E-1 was $513.00 per month. When I left at the end of ’85 I was an e-4 making a little over $800.00 per month. The vast majority of that $800.00 was spent on German beer. With no dependants, I was doing OK. The base pay has doubled since then.



Less than $13,000 a year, before taxes. And single sailors don't always get VHA/BAQ.

[toddjh]

At risk of getting jumped on by the military folks, I would like to make the suggestion that military pay should be subject to the same market forces as any other type of career. I'm a big fan of personal responsibility, and I think that if a person voluntarily takes a job that doesn't pay very well, that's no one's concern but his own.

Information about military pay grades is readily available. If soldiers and prospective soldiers think they are being treated unfairly, they should vote with their feet. What's the incentive for the government to raise military pay if there's no shortage of people signing up? And why should they? I have a feeling that a lot of the people complaining about the pay situation are also the first ones to push for lower taxes.

And, as others have pointed out, it's a pretty dumb idea to have a kid when you're not making very much. I have no sympathy for people who reproduce without the means to support their offspring -- stupidity should not be subsidized.

Jeremy

Originally posted by toddjh
At risk of getting jumped on by the military folks, I would like to make the suggestion that military pay should be subject to the same market forces as any other type of career. I'm a big fan of personal responsibility, and I think that if a person voluntarily takes a job that doesn't pay very well, that's no one's concern but his own.

Information about military pay grades is readily available. If soldiers and prospective soldiers think they are being treated unfairly, they should vote with their feet. What's the incentive for the government to raise military pay if there's no shortage of people signing up? And why should they? I have a feeling that a lot of the people complaining about the pay situation are also the first ones to push for lower taxes.

And, as others have pointed out, it's a pretty dumb idea to have a kid when you're not making very much. I have no sympathy for people who reproduce without the means to support their offspring -- stupidity should not be subsidized.

Jeremy

They do vote with their feet. We had a huge brain drain in the Navy from the technical rates during the 90s. It was extremely frustrating.

Also, sometimes you don't know how bad it is until you get away from it. That is what happened in my case. I deeply regret having served for 20 years. Part of that is because they did not keep the promises they made about what benefits would be there if I stuck around.

If I were to do it over, I would have left after 10 years. I could have been 10 years into a civilian career and making a heck of a lot more than what benefits I receive for having done 20 in the military.

I was just as "marketable" at 10 years, as I was at 20 years. Long before I retired, I had people coming to me to work for them, instead of the other way around. I didn't even have to work hard at job interviews once I retired. In fact, I was downright cavalier with a "I don't care if I get this job or not" attitude. And every one of them wanted to hire me.

In the Navy, you just kind of get used to the harsh working conditions. You really don't think too much about what an incredibly lousy life it is. I tell you, I retired three years ago and still take great joy every morning when I take a hot shower. Alone. With no shower shoes on. And I still marvel every time my civilian boss asks me to do something. That took a lot of getting used to. :D

And don't even get me started on good food. It is a small wonder that so many ex-military get fat soon after they leave the service. :)

[Doubt]

Originally posted by LukeT


Less than $13,000 a year, before taxes. And single sailors don't always get VHA/BAQ.

True Luke. But most of the single troops also live on post, eat at the mess hall, etc.

My point was that the $800.00 a month figure from the article is not correct.

[JAR]

Thanks for the input LukeT.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I was just amazed that a soldier cannot feed his family. The modern US army has the most amazing range of hitech weapons, for which cost is no object. But it cannot look after it's own people with dignity.

Yes, it can.

You, of course, are just looking for anecdotes--of any kind--that makes the US in general, and the US army in particular, look bad.

Never mind that it's a deliberate "tear jerker" story in a local newspaper about ONE person--it's quite enough to "prove" to you the US army "starves" its soldiers and robs them of their dignity.

[Agammamon]

Does anyone ever consider that your average E1-E4 is 18-22 years old. How many jobs in the civilian sector allow a fresh high school grad a large enough salary to afford to raise a family? Most of these young people get priority in service housing where they receive, well not great but usually not too bad, accomodations and free utilities. Let's not forget that these guys aren't paying for medical insurance to cover their families so where are Mrs Castro's baby's medical expenses coming from?

Right now that US$800 a month they're receiving is base pay. It doesn't include special allowances. Take out oh say 30% for taxes and medicare and you're left with at least US$560/mo for expenses (of which your rent and utilities are already taken care of). If you don't get into housing you get a housing allowance to make up the difference for rent. That's US$560/mo is the base take home pay from just one person, not including what the spouse can bring in if he/she is also working. And don't forget that this guy's unmarried collegues don't get a free home or housing allowance. E-1-E-3 who want to live intown have to come up all the money out of their own pockets.

There are lot's of little benefits available to married servicemembers that their single counterparts don't get. I am an E-5 with 11yrs service and have never had a married subordinate on foodstamps are need charity to survive.

[Troll]

Bogus crap all over again. Most Marines with financial issues are living outside of their means.

In addition to the basic pay rate, Marines are given housing and food allowances as well as the opportunity to accept base housing as opposed to living out in town. Medical is also covered if you choose to use the base hospitals.

Also the starting pay rate for a private is $1,064.70 for less than 4 months after 4 it goes up to $1150.84. It generally takes a little less than 2.5-3 years to make Corporal at which time the base pay rate goes up to $1,502.70 and that's if you walked on water and made it with less than 2 years in service. Many states also exempt active duty military personel from paying state taxes in their home state.

You can find all pay realted info here. It's a pdf format

http://www.dfas.mil/money/milpay/pay/2003paytable.pdf

If that link doesn't work you can go here and start

http://www.dfas.mil/money/milpay/pay/

Yes it can be rough but then we don't need to start life out with brand new cars or the nicest freaking apartments either. Liveing in Oceanside while i was stationed at Pendleton I managed, most of my buddies with kids managed, and we saw and counselled
many other Marines with financial issues. The end result was that they needed to try living beyond their means and learn to establish and live within a set budget.

*edited to add the following*

The "bogus crap" part refers to the original post and it's little spin link.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Agammamon
Does anyone ever consider that your average E1-E4 is 18-22 years old. How many jobs in the civilian sector allow a fresh high school grad a large enough salary to afford to raise a family? Most of these young people get priority in service housing where they receive, well not great but usually not too bad, accomodations and free utilities. Let's not forget that these guys aren't paying for medical insurance to cover their families so where are Mrs Castro's baby's medical expenses coming from?

Right now that US$800 a month they're receiving is base pay. It doesn't include special allowances. Take out oh say 30% for taxes and medicare and you're left with at least US$560/mo for expenses (of which your rent and utilities are already taken care of). If you don't get into housing you get a housing allowance to make up the difference for rent. That's US$560/mo is the base take home pay from just one person, not including what the spouse can bring in if he/she is also working. And don't forget that this guy's unmarried collegues don't get a free home or housing allowance. E-1-E-3 who want to live intown have to come up all the money out of their own pockets.

There are lot's of little benefits available to married servicemembers that their single counterparts don't get. I am an E-5 with 11yrs service and have never had a married subordinate on foodstamps are need charity to survive.

An E-5 with 11 years service? Yowza!:eek:

I made it from E-1 to E-5 in 2 1/2 years in the Navy... I wasn't even old enough to drink legally. I tested for E-6 at about 3 1/2 years, but got gone before I got the results. Sheeeit... we had nuke techs on my ship that made E-5 after only one year out of boot camp. We had a seven-year chief on the ship! I assume from the Groton, CT that you are in the Navy. Has the advancement progression really slowed that much in the last ten years, or are you stuck in a tar pit rating? Reserves perhaps?

As far as servicemen's families going begging... I was stationed in San Diego. That's some pretty pricey real estate, but I don't remember any of my married friends families eating at soup kitchens or panhandling. What they're not mentioning in the article is some of the more intangible benefits military families enjoy, namely, a big, ready-made community support group. I seem to remember a bunch of the wives getting together and organizing babysitting groups, going bulk shopping for cheaper prices(at the base exchange where the prices were cheaper to start with), swapping hand-me-down clothes, car pooling, etc... and then there are the low interest loans from the credit union, free medical and dental care, etc...

Sure, they weren't exactly driving Benzs and sporting mad bling bling, but I don't remember any of them begging for handouts.

[Agammamon]

Originally posted by Psiload


An E-5 with 11 years service? Yowza!:eek:

I made it from E-1 to E-5 in 2 1/2 years in the Navy... I wasn't even old enough to drink legally. I tested for E-6 at about 3 1/2 years, but got gone before I got the results. Sheeeit... we had nuke techs on my ship that made E-5 after only one year out of boot camp. We had a seven-year chief on the ship! I assume from the Groton, CT that you are in the Navy. Has the advancement progression really slowed that much in the last ten years, or are you stuck in a tar pit rating? Reserves perhaps?



Surface Boatswain's Mate baby! With a break in service also. Submariner ratings generally advance faster than Surface (which is not always a good thing). I made E-5 4yrs ago which is fastish for us.

Originally posted by Agammamon


Surface Boatswain's Mate baby! With a break in service also. Submariner ratings generally advance faster than Surface (which is not always a good thing). I made E-5 4yrs ago which is fastish for us.

Agammamon, are you going for 20? I hope not. It ain't worth it. Take it from a retired Chief.

[Lisa]

This story sort of pinged my bs detector. I spent a lot of time counceling the airmen who worked for me about financial matters. When they got into financial trouble, 100% of the time it was because they were trying to live beyond their means. To put it more bluntly, they were blowing money on crap instead of honoring their financial obligations.
I'd like to know the real story behind this young ladys situation. Is she aware that just about anyone E5 and below with children is qualified for WIC? Has she checked out the base's Family Support Center? Has she contacted her husband's unit's First Sergeant?
There is help and support aplenty in the military. But I suppose it's easier to whine to the press.:rolleyes:

[davefoc]

Good post Lisa, I've been thinking along these lines ever since I made my first post. I got to thinking about the fact that the average person pays his own utilities, pays for his own rent, pays for almost all of his own food, often pays for his own health insurance, often pays for his own life insurance and the average soldier often doesn't pay for quite a bit of this. It seems like any discussion about whether soldiers are under compensated because there is a report that a soldier's wife was begging for food needs to take this into account.

I think the person that said that if you doubled the soldier's salaries there would still be people begging for food was exactly correct.

I noticed that skeptic took his obligatory shot at AUP, not his best effort but a reasonable try. I'm beginning to think these guys aren't going to be sending each other Christmas cards this year.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Lisa
This story sort of pinged my bs detector. I spent a lot of time counceling the airmen who worked for me about financial matters. When they got into financial trouble, 100% of the time it was because they were trying to live beyond their means. To put it more bluntly, they were blowing money on crap instead of honoring their financial obligations.
I'd like to know the real story behind this young ladys situation. Is she aware that just about anyone E5 and below with children is qualified for WIC? Has she checked out the base's Family Support Center? Has she contacted her husband's unit's First Sergeant?
There is help and support aplenty in the military. But I suppose it's easier to whine to the press.:rolleyes:

It pinged your meter, but you had to spend a lot of time counselling people on financial matters. Basically, they are working poor. They can live, but not much else.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
It pinged your meter, but you had to spend a lot of time counselling people on financial matters. Basically, they are working poor. They can live, but not much else.

What makes that any different from the thousands of other low-wage jobs out there? There's no shortage of careers that are difficult and don't pay well; the fact that enlisted military is one of them says nothing except that entry level positions are largely unskilled labor.

Jeremy

[Lisa]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


It pinged your meter, but you had to spend a lot of time counselling people on financial matters. Basically, they are working poor. They can live, but not much else.
It pinged my meter because I'm familiar with the causes of the situation. From the tone of the article, these people are in trouble because of the low military pay. I was counceling people because of their horrendous spending habits.
The list is interesting. New airmen with their first credit cards, the desire to have a shiny new car rather than buying used, blowing entire paychecks at the club within about a week, expensive vacations, the list goes on and on.
For the people mentioned in the article, I'd be curious to know what their financial lifestyle is. After I'd posted, several other things occurred to me. One, deployable members are all required to have direct deposit (Sure Pay) set up. There is no need for the military person to send a few extra bucks home. The spouses have access to the entire paycheck. Two, since these guys are in the middle east, they're getting Family Separation Allowance and Hazardous Duty Pay. Their paychecks are actually a couple hundred bucks higher than they would be if they were sitting stateside. (Guess the article's author decided to leave that part out)

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Lisa

It pinged my meter because I'm familiar with the causes of the situation. From the tone of the article, these people are in trouble because of the low military pay. I was counceling people because of their horrendous spending habits.
The list is interesting. New airmen with their first credit cards, the desire to have a shiny new car rather than buying used, blowing entire paychecks at the club within about a week, expensive vacations, the list goes on and on.
For the people mentioned in the article, I'd be curious to know what their financial lifestyle is. After I'd posted, several other things occurred to me. One, deployable members are all required to have direct deposit (Sure Pay) set up. There is no need for the military person to send a few extra bucks home. The spouses have access to the entire paycheck. Two, since these guys are in the middle east, they're getting Family Separation Allowance and Hazardous Duty Pay. Their paychecks are actually a couple hundred bucks higher than they would be if they were sitting stateside. (Guess the article's author decided to leave that part out)

And according to Luke, many guys have to have a part time job to make ends meet. A couple of hundred bucks is hardly a fortune these days, anyway. I can spend that much on a trip to the supermarket.

[Agammamon]

Let's see, and E-4 with 3 years of service gets:

$1665.30 Base Pay
$242.81 Rations
$856 Basic Allowance For Housing (in Groton, Ct)
[Assuming they are not living in housing which
gives them free utilities (married members only)]

$2764.11
-$300 Taxes

$2464.11 Monthly take home pay for just the servicemember himself.

Free medical/dental for himself, free medical/cheap dental for his dependents.

Life insurance? How about $250000 worth for $18/mo.

Does she work? Free childcare during the day.

Is he stationed on a ship? $150 sea pay allowance.

Deployed? $100 Family separation allowance (married members only)
In a combat zone? $150 Hostile fire pay allowance

THis is what most of us are getting after 3 years of service. How do you end up begging for money? Unless you've had some sort of emergency expense its probably because of mishandling your money. The servicemember isn't the only one who can work, most couple in the civilian world are both working.

[Lisa]

Thank you Agammamon. I tried to post something similiar the other day, but that's when the forum was being a bit stubborn.
The article everyone is referencing is a poorly researched fluff piece, geared only to get sympathy.
While I'll concede that pay for junior enlisted ain't great, I still managed to get through my airman years without having to resort to handouts. I'd say this is true for the majority of the military.

[davefoc]

AUP said:
It pinged your meter, but you had to spend a lot of time counselling people on financial matters. Basically, they are working poor. They can live, but not much else.

AUP it seems like considerable evidence as been presented here that the notion you expressed above is just wrong or at least, significantly overstated. If you don't agree with this, are you disputing the facts that have been presented or does it just require a lot more money for somebody to not be part of the working poor by your definition than for most of us?

[Supercharts]

Originally posted by davefoc
AUP said:


AUP it seems like considerable evidence as been presented here that the notion you expressed above is just wrong or at least, significantly overstated. If you don't agree with this, are you disputing the facts that have been presented or does it just require a lot more money for somebody to not be part of the working poor by your definition than for most of us?
AUP doen't care about reality.
Hit and run.
It's a thing with him. Plus anal stuff. Go figure. :confused:

[Baker]

Originally posted by davefoc
AUP said:


AUP it seems like considerable evidence as been presented here that the notion you expressed above is just wrong or at least, significantly overstated. If you don't agree with this, are you disputing the facts that have been presented or does it just require a lot more money for somebody to not be part of the working poor by your definition than for most of us?

Fact’s and evidence isn’t apart of AUP vocabulary.:D

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by davefoc
AUP said:


AUP it seems like considerable evidence as been presented here that the notion you expressed above is just wrong or at least, significantly overstated. If you don't agree with this, are you disputing the facts that have been presented or does it just require a lot more money for somebody to not be part of the working poor by your definition than for most of us?

I think there has just been just as much evidence of the opposite, as well, if you read the posts.

The fact that so many need counselling, need second jobs, are advised to not have families, find the 'benefits' are not that beneficial etc just validates my point. The basic rate of pay is lousy. You have to put up with the possibility of being killed or wounded, and working in highly hazardous conditions.

I have kids, and I know how much they cost, and I am on a rate of pay that is a lot higher than these guys earn.

http://mccain.senate.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=Newscenter.ViewOpEd&Content_id=758



THEY DEFEND AMERICA ON FOOD STAMPS By : by Sen. John McCain

September 29, 1999 - San Diego Union Tribune - This week, the United States Senate passed legislation authorizing funding for our national defense. Although this bill is notable for a 4.4% increase in defense spending over last year -- nearly $8.3 billion above the President's budget request -- it fails to adequately provide for our enlisted men and women.

In America today, 12,000 military personnel must subsist on food stamps. They line up after hours in civilian clothes to receive their monthly allotment of food stamps, even though they work full-time. They line up on weekends to receive free cans of food from charitable organizations trying to help. They humbly accept used furniture and basic household items that have been donated by others who want to help young families in need. Many have no choice but to participate in Women, Infants, Children (WIC), a social program for pregnant women and new mothers who require nutritional supplements.

These enlisted service members of our all-volunteer, world-class military have taken an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States, and they proudly wear their uniforms on our behalf, ready to make the ultimate sacrifice. These military men and women -- our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines -- are the very same Americans that the President and Congress have sent into harm's way in recent years in Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti, Kosovo, and now East Timor. The men and women who volunteer to serve our country in the military have a right to a decent salary, and we have a responsibility to pay them adequately.

In recent years, annual military pay increases have barely kept pace with inflation, while lagging 13.5% behind the pay increases in the private sector during the same period. To put the impact of such trends in plain dollar amounts, the lowest enlisted rank, an E-1, currently earns as little as $11,512 per year, plus $2,737 in allowances, which is well below the poverty level for a family of four. In fact, the number of men and women in the military earning less than $20,000 per year constitutes 45% of the Army, 46% of the Marine Corps, 26% of the Navy, and 18% of the Air Force. Of these service members, 111,600 have families and 6,515 are single parents.

These military personnel are extremely dependent on military base facilities and services; yet such services simply are not sufficient to make up for a lack of adequate pay. In addition to those already receiving food stamps, the military services estimate that at least 12,000 more service members are eligible to receive the program's benefits. Nearly 94 percent of all food stamp households have a gross income equal to or less than the U.S. government's official poverty guidelines.

[Supercharts]

Aborigine poverty

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/s73242.htm

Public Policy
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/rciadic/national/vol2/37.html

Rabbit Proof Fence
http://www.au-cinema.com/Rabbit-Proof-Fence.htm

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Supercharts
Aborigine poverty

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/s73242.htm

Public Policy
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/rciadic/national/vol2/37.html

Rabbit Proof Fence
http://www.au-cinema.com/Rabbit-Proof-Fence.htm

I took my kids to see rabbit-proof fence. They loved it.

[Supercharts]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I took my kids to see rabbit-proof fence. They loved it.

When they are adults can they sue to have their real names back? Just wondering...

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Supercharts


When they are adults can they sue to have their real names back? Just wondering...

So I take that ad-hominems mean you have no valid rebuttal and therefore must agree with my point of view.

[Supercharts]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


So I take that ad-hominems mean you have no valid rebuttal and therefore must agree with my point of view.

You are correct. I always agree with your point of view. Many may think that you are a one-sided, myoptic, anti-American, Anal, Anti-Semetic jerk. That's not me. After reading everything you have posted I have a quite different view and I've come to really appreciate your 'uniqueness'.
May God bless you and may Jesus hold you close to His bosom and grant you eternal life. :)

[Agammamon]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


So I take that ad-hominems mean you have no valid rebuttal and therefore must agree with my point of view.

Strange, I thought I had posted a valid rebuttal. I guess the hard numbers off of the military pay scale don't count as real data.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Agammamon


Strange, I thought I had posted a valid rebuttal. I guess the hard numbers off of the military pay scale don't count as real data.

And I thought I had posted a rebuttal to your rebuttal.

[Agammamon]

No, after I posted the pay numbers showing that junior married military members make a comfortable living you replied by stating that they are still poor and don't have enough for basic necessities. How a family in which one member alone is taking home $2000+ a month with a free house and utilities can't have enough for food is beyond me.

However, I've beat this monkey to death.

Edited

I don't mean you, I mean the subject.

[Skeptic]

AUP is not beating a dead horse here; he's beating a vaguely horse-shaped blur of dried blood on the pavement.

Put simply, AUP, you posted as "evidence" for the "poverty" of American servicemen the fact that ONE soldier's wife said she needs to "beg for food"... of course, AFTER she already made home payments, car payments, payments to take the children to judo class (or something similar), etc.

In reply, people noted that:

First, it is hardly destitution, but simply economic miscalculation, caused by putting car payments and courses for the children before food on your priority list.

Second, even as told, nobody is starving. At most, the mother is embarrased by having to ask for food that is there for the taking by charity organizations.

Third, hard data on the income of the American soldier--showing that even the lowliest private makes enough to live on comfortably, if not lavishly.

(You might as well ask your boss for a raise, after proving to him that once you buy that Ferrarri you will STARVE TO DEATH! And your boss surely doesn't want Australia to look bad by showing that it starves its dedicated workers, now does he?)

So, if you had a "point", it was simply the usual "oh my how bad America is" nonsense based on nothing more than a tear-jerking story in a local paper.

By the way, how did you even HEAR of this story? Unless you are a subscriber from Australia to a local southern California paper, it was due to an internet search. And just how did you come up with THAT article by asking google?

I am willing to bet you simply entered "USA AND soldiers AND begging for food", or something similar, into the search engine--no doubt looking for stories of iraqis begging for food from the heartless US soldiers. When you found a story talking about an American soldier "starving", you chose it instead because (you believed) it made America look the worst.

For further ease of finding "objective evidence the media won't tell you" about how awful the US is, I hereby include a list. You can just cut-and-paste from it into google's search window, finding as much "dirt" as you want:

America AND evil
US Army AND pedophelia
US Navy AND cannibalism
US Marines AND rape
US Air Force AND civilian casualties
US Coast Guard AND drowning AND foreigners
Pentagon AND secret AND plan AND control AND world
Bush AND monkey
Powell AND thug
Cheney AND oil AND money

Since these kind of searches seem to be the way you usually find your "evidence", I hope this saves you time.

P.S.

Repalce "US" with "israel" for further proof of the awful evil these two nations bring to the world, courtesy of google. You're getting two for the price of one!

[Supercharts]

Well I have to agree. All I did was 'Google' Australian Army Rape and found this:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/s196632.htm

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic

So, if you had a "point", it was simply the usual "oh my how bad America is" nonsense based on nothing more than a tear-jerking story in a local paper.

By the way, how did you even HEAR of this story? Unless you are a subscriber from Australia to a local southern California paper, it was due to an internet search. And just how did you come up with THAT article by asking google?

I am willing to bet you simply entered "USA AND soldiers AND begging for food", or something similar, into the search engine--no doubt looking for stories of iraqis begging for food from the heartless US soldiers. When you found a story talking about an American soldier "starving", you chose it instead because (you believed) it made America look the worst.

For further ease of finding "objective evidence the media won't tell you" about how awful the US is, I hereby include a list. You can just cut-and-paste from it into google's search window, finding as much "dirt" as you want:

America AND evil
US Army AND pedophelia
US Navy AND cannibalism
US Marines AND rape
US Air Force AND civilian casualties
US Coast Guard AND drowning AND foreigners
Pentagon AND secret AND plan AND control AND world
Bush AND monkey
Powell AND thug
Cheney AND oil AND money

Since these kind of searches seem to be the way you usually find your "evidence", I hope this saves you time.

P.S.

Repalce "US" with "israel" for further proof of the awful evil these two nations bring to the world, courtesy of google. You're getting two for the price of one!

If you look at the source, it is my daily urban newspaper. It was just an interesting story I read. The contrast of a military that has the most money spent on it, with the most advanced and expensive weapons in the world, having some it's soldiers depending on charity for food.

It reminded me of comments such as this one by LukeT



Like others have said, I think a lot of minorities joined the military for the same reason this white kid did. I couldn't afford college, and they have an excellent training program. Plus, they help you go to college.

It is a nice lure....



Another poster had stated, can't find it, about how people in the army are having to cough up to buy their own equipment because the army won't supply it for them. Just rang a bell, that's all.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Supercharts
Well I have to agree. All I did was 'Google' Australian Army Rape and found this:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/s196632.htm

Yep, they train people to kill, then wonder why they get into other forms of brutality as well.....