wikiepedia blocked in Shanghai

[geni]

Probably. I'v run accross 3 inderpendant reports though so I'm pretty certain. Aparently up to the minute info on pokemon was unaceptable to the chines goverment.

[Ed]

Sly yellow devils.

[Beerina]

Sly yellow devils.

Let's hope the blocking software was written by Westerners, so at least we'll be profiting off the oppression.

[Manny]

Let's hope the blocking software was written by Westerners, so at least we'll be profiting off the oppression.Grrr. Hate media companies (including search engines) who are cooperating with those guys for a buck. Hate!

[Kaylee]

I hate it too. And I'm concerned about it also.

If the huge coporations (Google, Yahoo, Microsoft) are willing to sell out to win Chinese contracts … isn't it just a matter of time until they might be willing to mess with the search engines used in "western countries"?

[Grammatron]

I hate it too. And I'm concerned about it also.

If the huge coporations (Google, Yahoo, Microsoft) are willing to sell out to win Chinese contracts … isn't it just a matter of time until they might be willing to mess with the search engines used in "western countries"?



Nop.

[Kaylee]

Nop.
Oh. Well. That's totally convincing! lol!

On a serious note, I just did a search on "open source search engines" and I got some hits. That made me feel better.

However, I don't know how good they are actually or what else is necessary to get good search results. I would imagine that google, yahoo, etc. have very powerful and expensive servers.

[Grammatron]

Oh. Well. That's totally convincing! lol!

On a serious note, I just did a search on "open source search engines" and I got some hits. That made me feel better.

However, I don't know how good they are actually or what else is necessary to get good search results. I would imagine that google, yahoo, etc. have very powerful and expensive servers.

How many people would still use google/yahoo/msn/etc. if they knew their results were filtered by government?

Search engines are not that difficult to create and maintain, they might not be all the great in the beginingm but they will at least be free of cencorship.

[Kaylee]

How many people would still use google/yahoo/msn/etc. if they knew their results were filtered by government?

Search engines are not that difficult to create and maintain, they might not be all the great in the beginingm but they will at least be free of cencorship.

If there was censorship in a "western country", I would not expect it to be advertised. The censorship wouldn't necc. have to be govt. driven either -- for example IMHO it could be tempting for a large conglomerate to not produce search results for every lobbying activity taking place that might affect their interests directly or indirectly. I"m not saying that this is happening or will happen, but I can see the temptation and how would most people know?

In general, its not always easy to know what one doesn't know. That's the challenge. And I do wonder how many Chinese people are aware that the search engines they are using with American names are producing censored results.

I'm not an expert in this area, but I hope you are right that search engines are not that difficult to create or maintain. And I also hope that there are some folks setting up and maintaining web sites with uncensored search engines in China.

[Grammatron]

If there was censorship in a "western country", I would not expect it to be advertised. The censorship wouldn't necc. have to be govt. driven either -- for example IMHO it could be tempting for a large conglomerate to not produce search results for every lobbying activity taking place that might affect their interests directly or indirectly. I"m not saying that this is happening or will happen, but I can see the temptation and how would most people know?
Because when you have that many people involved it's impossible to keep a secret.

In general, its not always easy to know what one doesn't know. That's the challenge.

Huh?

And I do wonder how many Chinese people are aware that the search engines they are using with American names are producing censored results.

I do not know that.

I'm not an expert in this area, but I hope you are right that search engines are not that difficult to create or maintain. And I also hope that there are some folks setting up and maintaining web sites with uncensored search engines in China.

There are people from outside of China who do just that; there are migrating proxies that allow people to bypass of the Chinese proxies.

[Kaylee]

Because when you have that many people involved it's impossible to keep a secret.
Hopefully that’s true. But despite the cliché, I suspect that most people can be fooled most of the time for at least a long time.

How many people are members of this forum because they have complete despair in many of their neighbors' abilities to think skeptically?

Plus to use an admittedly extreme example, the USA has an established history of going to war over misinformation made possible with cooperation by the media of the day. (Rightly or wrongly, I think of search engines as part utility and part media.) For example, the Hearst Empire contributed a great deal to the Spanish-American War. And I'm sure a lot of people were aware of the lies and manipulation going on at the time.

Huh?
I'm just saying it's not always easy to know the boundaries of our knowledge. And its not always easy to know when one is relying on misplaced trust or assumptions or when one is being manipulated.

There was a thread shortly before the forum upgrade titled something like "If you were brainwashed would you know?" (I can't find it unfortunately) I think most people said they probably wouldn't.

There are people from outside of China who do just that; there are migrating proxies that allow people to bypass of the Chinese proxies.
That's good news! :)

[Grammatron]

Hopefully that’s true. But despite the cliché, I suspect that most people can be fooled most of the time for at least a long time.

Not when the government is involved. They can't even break into a hotel room :)

How many people are members of this forum because they have complete despair in many of their neighbors' abilities to think skeptically?

Well...I think many on this forum lack the ability to think skeptically..but that's just me :P

Plus to use an admittedly extreme example, the USA has an established history of going to war over misinformation made possible with cooperation by the media of the day. (Rightly or wrongly, I think of search engines as part utility and part media.) For example, the Hearst Empire contributed a great deal to the Spanish-American War. And I'm sure a lot of people were aware of the lies and manipulation going on at the time.

That's true, but times and ammount of sources have changed.

I'm just saying it's not always easy to know the boundaries of our knowledge. And its not always easy to know when one is relying on misplaced trust or assumptions or when one is being manipulated.

I suppose, but I really doubt this ammount of deciet could go on.

There was a thread shortly before the forum upgrade titled something like "If you were brainwashed would you know?" (I can't find it unfortunately) I think most people said they probably wouldn't.

Brainwashing and censoring of the information are different. Brainwashing, in fact, is self-censorship in that you get the real information but you refuse to process it because it conflicts with the way you view the world.

That's good news! :)
It sure is.