Colon cleansing?

[EagleEye]

My mom is paying $50 per "treatment" for this "therapy". She claims that the "practitioner" (I hesitate to call him a "doctor") told her that getting these "warm water enemas" will help to reset the enzymes in her bowel and stomach to help her digest things properly, etc...

Evidently this is some form of weight loss treatment?

I know it's quackery, but I need stuff to print off and give to her to PROVE that it is.

I already printed off a page from quackwatch.com about it, but it's not very convincing.

Can anyone help me find appropriate material?

[Jeff Corey]

I tried googling it, but I only got Zappa's Illinios Enema Bandit.
Sorry.

[Dr. Imago]

Can anyone help me find appropriate material?

Just tell her it's a bunch of crap.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

-Dr. Imago

[Capsid]

Quackwatch has a good article to start from with further reading.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/gastro.html

[Mojo]

Just tell her it's a bunch of crap.

Sorry, couldn't resist.As Eddie said in Absolutely Fabulous: "It's called colonic irrigation. It's not to be sniffed at."

[Mojo]

Short article from The Grauniad: http://www.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,,1580682,00.html

[Mojo]

My mom is paying $50 per "treatment" for this "therapy". She claims that the "practitioner" (I hesitate to call him a "doctor") told her that getting these "warm water enemas" will help to reset the enzymes in her bowel and stomach to help her digest things properly, etc... You could also try pointing out that to do anything to the parts of the gut that are involved in digestion (the stomach, for Ed's sake!) the water would have to go one hell of a long way up!

[goodgirlonhere]

This "treatment" is a common procedure in places like California. Many actresses do this to help them lose temporary weight. Only a few pounds. Patricia Heaton was known to have done 4 "treatments" prior to her "Emmy award" appearance. :jaw-dropp
However, just because people do it does NOT make it healthy for them. This procedure is proclaimed to "cleanse" out poisons in the system. The colon is where they supposedly gather and once "cleaned out" will make you healthier and less chance of getting cancer.:boggled:
The truth is that it is extremely dangerous to one's health. A one time treatment may be okay or even once a month but repeated treatments can cause serious health problems. Your mother may want to do this one time and hate it too much to return. The procedure they place something up the rectum and squirt and suck out "stuff". Not a pleasant experience.
What makes this procedure dangerous is the damage it does to the colon's system. It could damage the "cilia" that lines the colon. Cilia pushes the material along helping the "good" stuff get digested. This could cause a loss of vitamins from being absorbed causing the patient to become malnourished. There is also the risk of infections. The "material" is pushed back upward through the system. There may be a risk of "leakage" into other internal organs. This could cause the patient to go "septic". Which puts someone in the hospital for infections throughout the abodomen.
Have your mother read the risk form. There should be more details on the exact risks on it. Make sure she understands the risk and how it may NOT be a good way to lose weight or protect her health. Take an Ex-lax instead and enjoy!:covereyes :cool:

[Dr. Imago]

Thanks for your help, goodgirl. Just wanted to clear up/expand a couple points you made.

The primary propulsion mechanism in the intestines is smooth muscle contraction, not beating cilia (which are found mainly in the upper airway and a few other structures in the body, like the fallopian tubes). There actually aren't any cilia in the large intestine. There are villi in the small intestine, but their role is primarily to increase the surface area and facilitate absorption.

Secondly, you really shouldn't take ExLax (or any other stimulant based laxative) unless you really, really, REALLY need to. And, then, you should only use them on rare occasions when you can go no matter what else you tried. Getting "hooked" on laxatives can be a bad thing for your body. These should not generally be considered for an otherwise normal, healthy body a good alternative to getting a colonic. The whole colonic thing is really a bit silly, when you think about it.

-Dr. Imago

[goodgirlonhere]

I was being "sarcastic" about the Ex-lax comment!:cool: Taking Ex-lax or having a Colonic is just all around a bad idea.:rolleyes: They both lead to malnutrition disorders. It's like bulimia but coming out the OTHER end:eye-poppi !!!

[LordoftheLeftHand]

You could always call Roto-Rooter and have them clean your colon out! OUCH

LLH

[Ladewig]

My mom is paying $50 per "treatment" for this "therapy". She claims that the "practitioner" (I hesitate to call him a "doctor") told her that getting these "warm water enemas" will help to reset the enzymes in her bowel and stomach to help her digest things properly, etc...


Does the practitioner give any reason why these special treatments are more beneficial than buying a Fleet brand disposable enema at the drug store for less than $2?

[shecky]

People are weird about these things. Seems there is a type that's attracted to the notion of "cleansing the toxins" out of one's body, and the colonic is a suitable ritual producing viewable results.

[Zep]

It usually involves about 4 to 5 litres (OK, quarts) of saline solution going BACKWARDS up your gut. That is certain to carry anything "bad" from the back end up to the front end, where the body (and plain logic) suggests that it definitely should be going the other way. And that quantity of liquid will simply distend the large intestine only, some 20 feet or more away from the stomach as the intestine peristalts.

The usual "excuse" for this treatment is to "flush out the stagnant material in the bowel". Sorry, unless you have chronic constipation or diverticulitis, material does not stagnate in the bowel. As George Harrison said, all things MUST pass. As for the "flushing toxins from the body" idea, I'm sure the medical people here can explain about how the body really flushes toxins, and I rather doubt the large intestine is where it happens.

[EagleEye]

thanks for all the comments guys.

I printed the quackwatch article, gave it to her, told her in a rather scathing tone that what she was doing was stupid. I also told her that she REALLY needs to check with any of her 4 genius-level children with internet access (she has none) and superb research capabilities at our fingertips, the next time she WANTS to believe anything extraordinary that she hears from a doctor or sees on the news.

[Mojo]

thanks for all the comments guys.

I printed the quackwatch article, gave it to her, told her in a rather scathing tone that what she was doing was stupid. I also told her that she REALLY needs to check with any of her 4 genius-level children with internet access (she has none) and superb research capabilities at our fingertips, the next time she WANTS to believe anything extraordinary that she hears from a doctor or sees on the news.But did it do the slightest bit of good?

[Zep]

Wait for the screams, Mojo... ;)

[EagleEye]

But did it do the slightest bit of good?

Yes it did... she cancelled her last 2 appointments. :)

[Barbrae]

The truth is that it is extremely dangerous to one's health. :


DO youhave any evidence to back up this statement?

[Rolfe]

DO youhave any evidence to back up this statement?Why do you care, Barb? You've admitted several times that you cannot support your homoeopathic practices with evidence. You've excused this by saying that you don't have the same regard for science and logic and rigorous proof that we have. Bit of a double standard showing here, I think?

(And if you'd ever seen a patient suffering from a perforated large intestine, you wouldn't need to ask the question.)

Rolfe.

[Barbrae]

Bit of a double standard showing here, I think?

(And if you'd ever seen a patient suffering from a perforated large intestine, you wouldn't need to ask the question.)

Rolfe.
Exactly my point Rolfe. It is a double standard indeed. Here, the place where "science" and "evidence" are claimed to be utilized to determine the truth of claims and yet it seems when those claims are against anything non-allopathic then evidence isn't needed.

The question is how often does an enema/colonic cause a perferated colon? actually, your comment is pretty much the same as me saying "if you ever saw someone take a remedy and watch it work you wouldn't need to ask if homeopathy works." Of course you don't allow such comments as "evidence" so let's not allow it to "prove " that colon cleansing is highly dangerous.

[fishbait]

Response to Quackwatch page on colon cleansing:
"AND they've realized we have a second brain, which is located in the wall of the intestine."
Evidence for the "sh*t for brains" theory.

Years ago I had several colonic cleansing treatments administered by an attractive young woman. I always wondered about dinner conversations with her husband: "So, Honey, what did you do at work today?"

[Zep]

"Oh, I rinsed out some gullible homeopaths. You know - same old same old."

[Jeff Corey]

..
The question is how often does an enema/colonic cause a perferated colon? .
Actually never, Because there is no such word as "perferated", you illiterate dingbat.

[Eos of the Eons]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12066245&dopt=Abstract

The study looks at 14 patients with perforations after cleansings. They exist. There's no doubt many people have experienced perforations after cleansing. That part of the body is not made for "cleansings".

It's really not ethical to take a bunch of people and do cleansings to see how many get perforations. And there's really no one place to collect national or international data on the topic either. Hence, you will never find any statistics on exactly how many perforations occur per x number of cleansings.

Although it is silly to ingest clay, it is safer to drink the dirt concoctions that will take on the shape of your colon before you pass it out. If you figure you need some cleansing, drink the mud, just don't get stuff up your butt.

[Kopji]

Ten patients were treated by surgery; five recovered and the other five died. The other four patients were treated conservatively and all four died.
-ibid

Because we care.

[Mojo]

Exactly my point Rolfe. It is a double standard indeed. Here, the place where "science" and "evidence" are claimed to be utilized to determine the truth of claims and yet it seems when those claims are against anything non-allopathic then evidence isn't needed.

The question is how often does an enema/colonic cause a perferated colon? actually, your comment is pretty much the same as me saying "if you ever saw someone take a remedy and watch it work you wouldn't need to ask if homeopathy works." Of course you don't allow such comments as "evidence" so let's not allow it to "prove " that colon cleansing is highly dangerous.Eos has posted the evidence.

Remember that the standard of evidence for negative outcomes is necessarily going to be different from that for desired outcomes. For a treatment to be worth using, it needs to work consistently, and controlled testing is an appropriate way of testing this. Negative outcomes are hopefully going to be much rarer, at least for viable treatments where the alternative isn't something along the lines of death, and evidence for them is therefore necessarily going to be more anecdotal.

[Beady]

I already printed off a page from quackwatch.com about it, but it's not very convincing.

????????

From the summary of articles on Qwackwatch:

Gastrointestinal Quackery: Colonics, Laxatives, and Morek, Nov 18 2004

* colon cleansing (such as before a radiologic endocopic examination).
* No system has been approved for "routine" colon cleansing
* colon cleansing, such as before radiologic or sigmoidoscopic

Colonic Promoters Facing Legal Actions, Dec 3 2003

* only for use in medically indicated colon cleansing, such as

Unnaturalistic Methods: P, Jun 4 1997

* approach to nutrition." It includes "colon cleansing" and

Unnaturalistic Methods: J-K, Jun 4 1997

* Kahuna healing encompasses "colon cleansing," "energy field

Just this little bit makes it look dubious.

[clarsct]

From a Dr. of my acquantaince, I have also learned that you can seriously disrupt your electrolyte balance with some of these infusions. The large intestine mainly exists to ABSORB water and any lingering nutrients from the stool. Flushing it with water is like overloading a sponge, in away. It doesn't do what it is supposed to.

Just a few pennies.

[Rolfe]

Exactly The question is how often does an enema/colonic cause a perferated colon?OK, you've had your evidence. Comments?

You know what? I've actually seen patients with perforated large intestines. Yes, iatrogenically (that means the doctor caused it, as I suppose you know). Thankfully, they were cattle.

You probably know that rectal examination plays a bigger part in large animal medicine than in human medicine. This is because the size of the animal allows quite a lot of useful information to be gathered that way, including pregnancy testing and information about the health and status of the reproductive tract. Unfortunately, cack-handed veterinary students have to be trained in this technique, and sometimes things go wrong. This happened to an unfortunate heifer while I was at college. The staff tried their best, but sadly she had to be shot.

Exhortations to be careful and lurid descriptions of the possible consequences pepper all lectures on rectal examination techniques. And once you've seen an example, you understand why.

When I read what is done in colon cleansing therapy, I'm simply appalled. Sure, most people get away with it most of the time. But I didn't need Eos's reference to know that tragedies would have happened. It's inevitable. So, having some homoeopaths who need a smack in the mouth about now, I didn't bother to look up the evidence I knew would be there - I just waited for someone else to find it. Thanks, Eos.

Look, playing in traffic is obviously stupid. If one of your children demanded peer-reviewed documentary evidence for the number of children who were injured while doing that, would you meekly go and look it up for them, or would you tell them not to be so cheeky?

Rolfe.

[tastless comment warning]If Princess Diana, had to die of something, guess what I wish had got her?[/warning]

[Diamond]

I've learned a lot from this thread. Thanks.

(And no, I've never had, or wanted to have colonic irrigation)

[Barbrae]

Eos has posted the evidence.

Remember that the standard of evidence for negative outcomes is necessarily going to be different from that for desired outcomes. For a treatment to be worth using, it needs to work consistently, and controlled testing is an appropriate way of testing this. Negative outcomes are hopefully going to be much rarer, at least for viable treatments where the alternative isn't something along the lines of death, and evidence for them is therefore necessarily going to be more anecdotal.

Hi Mojo,

Yes, of course, but when someone make sthis statement...

"The truth is that it is extremely dangerous to one's health. What makes this procedure dangerous is the damage it does to the colon's system. It could damage the "cilia" that lines the colon. Cilia pushes the material along helping the "good" stuff get digested. This could cause a loss of vitamins from being absorbed causing the patient to become malnourished. There is also the risk of infections. The "material" is pushed back upward through the system. There may be a risk of "leakage" into other internal organs. This could cause the patient to go "septic". Which puts someone in the hospital for infections throughout the abodomen."

but fails to back it up with any evidence (in fact, this poster doesn't even mention perforations, I'd still like to see evidence to back up what they claim) that evidence should be asked for.

[Rolfe]

News flash. Just because someone makes a mistake in the mechanism they're postulating doesn't mean the effect they're describing is nonexistent. Note that Dr. Imago corrected goodgirlonhere's mistake within an hour, and on the very next post. And that everything else posted has been essentially factually correct.

You weren't saying, hey, come on, the gut doesn't have cilia, you guys don't know what you're talking about. You were simply jumping to the defence of any sort of dangerous woo, in your usual manner, because anything that isn't regular medicine is good in your eyes. (Even though enemas are regular medicine, in the right context.)

If we're talking about playing in traffic, do we actually have to say in words of one syllable that one of the dangers is that a child might be killed by a car? Do you really think that because one poster makes a mistake about the exact rules of one of the street games, then that means that it's OK to play in traffic?

Rolfe.

[goodgirlonhere]

Yes it was my mispelling on the word "cilia" or it's reference. That was my mistake. Got mixed up with another fingerlike appendage that was used to move things along.:cool: :o Anyway, I don't always get "evidence" or quote directly from a law or medical book. It doesn't matter because if you don't believe what I have stated your going to look it up anyways. Seeing is believing. Plus I try to "break it down" to layman's terms. Too many interpretations can happen from official sources as we can easily note.:rolleyes:
My statement still stands about Colon cleansing. It has been known to cause damage to the large intensines by "rupture" or "perforation" whichever word you prefer. It also leads to serious malnutrition. The nutrients are not being properly absorbed into the system and vitamin/nutrient loss does occur. This can cause the body to go into "starvation" mode. The organs are going to react to this in desperation to be fed. When this happens many symptoms can occur. The symptoms are similar in what you would see in an Anoroxic, Bulimic, or Starved person. That may include an "extended stomach", loss of teeth or hair, and immunes system defencies. Ironically, these symptoms will still occur if you are eating normally with doing the colon cleansing.:eye-poppi Essentially, overuse of colon cleansing can make a person "starve to death" in the worst scenerio.
I am NOT against homeopathic cures or treatments. However, you do need to do your research first. Understand how the body and organs work and if what your taking could effect their workings. Taking a supplement with "silver" in it can cause your skin to permanently turn silver if used for long periods of time. Other elements may have similar effects on the body. Taking grapefruit juice and blood pressure medications will cause serious problems. So be careful with the natural ingredients or natural uses of ingredients. They may be dangerous in actual use or combination. Colon cleansing is one of those "natural" uses that is dangerous and not useful in the long run.

[Rolfe]

I am NOT against homeopathic cures or treatments. However, you do need to do your research first. Understand how the body and organs work and if what your taking could effect their workings. Taking a supplement....Oh do tell! What do you think is in homoeopathic remedies? Have you done any research on the subject?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be nasty, just trying to find out if you're really a devotee of that insane delusion, or if you're simply labouring under the common misapprehension that homoeopathy is just a fancy word for herbalism.

You do realise that if a homoeopathic remedy says it's "silver", there's no possibility that there could be enough silver in it to turn your little toe silver, and the probability is (depending on the "potency" purchased) that there isn't a single molecule of silver in it at all? That homoeopathic remedies tend not to have any "ingredients" in them at all?

Rolfe.

[Mojo]

My statement still stands about Colon cleansing. It has been known to cause damage to the large intensines by "rupture" or "perforation" whichever word you prefer. It also leads to serious malnutrition. The nutrients are not being properly absorbed into the system and vitamin/nutrient loss does occur. This can cause the body to go into "starvation" mode. The organs are going to react to this in desperation to be fed. When this happens many symptoms can occur. The symptoms are similar in what you would see in an Anoroxic, Bulimic, or Starved person. That may include an "extended stomach", loss of teeth or hair, and immunes system defencies. Ironically, these symptoms will still occur if you are eating normally with doing the colon cleansing.:eye-poppi Essentially, overuse of colon cleansing can make a person "starve to death" in the worst scenerio. Er, nope. :nope: The primary function of the colon is to reabsorb water. Very little, if any, nutritional absorption happens there.

I am NOT against homeopathic cures or treatments. However, you do need to do your research first. Understand how the body and organs work and if what your taking could effect their workings. Taking a supplement with "silver" in it can cause your skin to permanently turn silver if used for long periods of time. Not if the "supplement" is homeopathic it won't! ;)

ETA: I see Rolfe's beaten me to it again!

[clarsct]

From a Dr. of my acquantaince, I have also learned that you can seriously disrupt your electrolyte balance with some of these infusions. The large intestine mainly exists to ABSORB water and any lingering nutrients from the stool. Flushing it with water is like overloading a sponge, in away. It doesn't do what it is supposed to.

Just a few pennies.


Just to reinforce Mojo's point, I thought I'd repeat myself...

(apparently, there is a minute amount of nutrient reabsorbtion, but it's mainly a 'scavenger' sort of deal. Not the primary focus, but does happen somewhat)

[goodgirlonhere]

I am NOT against someone believing in homeopathic remedies. I do not use them myself except for the occassional vitamin C or Zinc cold prevention. Never found that to work very well but I like the cough drops...:cool:
I never claimed to be into homeopathic user but I am not against trying out something on occassion. I believe if the Indians and other ancestors survived without medical companies, I can too. They must have known a few natural cures here and there.:cool:
Yes, there is a condition where taking too much silver can cause permanent skin discoloration. It shows up the worst in the face area but involves the whole body. A person who suffers from this is often referred to as "Walking dead". They look like a corpse.:covereyes A lady with this condition was recently on a show on Health channel. It is a proven condition with no cure. I was shocked to have seen it myself or I wouldn't have believed it. I am sorry I can't spell the condition name out. Afraid I would get "attacked" because I can't spell some rare condition that only a few people suffer from.:rolleyes: But it does exist and I am sure a poster here will find it.

[clarsct]

Oh dear. It seems you've confused 'herbalism' with 'homeopathy'.
Rolfe, Mojo? I'm sure there's a website out there that explains the difference.

[Rolfe]

I am NOT against someone believing in homeopathic remedies. I do not use them myself except for the occassional vitamin C or Zinc cold prevention. Never found that to work very well but I like the cough drops...:cool:
I never claimed to be into homeopathic user but I am not against trying out something on occassion. I believe if the Indians and other ancestors survived without medical companies, I can too. They must have known a few natural cures here and there.:cool:
Yes, there is a condition where taking too much silver can cause permanent skin discoloration. It shows up the worst in the face area but involves the whole body. A person who suffers from this is often referred to as "Walking dead". They look like a corpse.:covereyes A lady with this condition was recently on a show on Health channel. It is a proven condition with no cure. I was shocked to have seen it myself or I wouldn't have believed it. I am sorry I can't spell the condition name out. Afraid I would get "attacked" because I can't spell some rare condition that only a few people suffer from.:rolleyes: But it does exist and I am sure a poster here will find it.You were the one who was advocating doing some "research". I think you ought to take your own advice.

I'm not against anyone believing in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, but this forum is about science and medicine, religion is across the hall....

Yes, we know about the dangers of silver supplements, argentia, is that the name of the condition? Of course it exists, and most of us here have read a number of articles about it. But it's got nothing to do with homoeopathy.

Another news flash. Lots of people have lived into their 80s and even 90s without any medical intervention whatsoever, in all societies, in all ages. The fact that some members of any given society managed that is no evidence whatsoever that whatever they were using as "medicine" was any use at all.

However, whatever the Indians or anybody else's ancestors happened to use, it was not homoeopathy, which was invented out of thin air in about 1800 by a German physician called Samuel Hahnemann.

Silver supplements, grapefruit juice or whatever you want, are not homoeopathy. Homoeopathy is sugar pills. With nothing else in them.

So maybe you want to go and do a bit of that research before you start supporting something you clearly have no idea about whatsoever. You could start on www.homeowatch.org (http://www.homeowatch.org)

Rolfe.

[clarsct]

I know MRC_Hans has a website that tore Hahnemann up pretty well, but I don't remember the address..



Aside from which there are problems with 'natural' rememdies, too. But let's be sure we know which we're talking about.

[Physiotherapist]

goodgirlonhere,

It sounds as if you have one hell of a lot of research to do yourself - you seem to know little of the organ functions?

The large intestine mainly absorbs water with the nutritional elements being in the form of vitamins.

[Mojo]

goodgirlonhere,

It sounds as if you have one hell of a lot of research to do yourself - you seem to know little of the organ functions? Or of The Organon, for that matter. ;)

[Mojo]

Oh dear. It seems you've confused 'herbalism' with 'homeopathy'.
Rolfe, Mojo? I'm sure there's a website out there that explains the difference.Here's (http://www.hans-egebo.dk/Skeptic/Homeopathy%20article.htm) Hans's article. This site (http://www.vetpath.co.uk/voodoo/), aimed at UK vets, also has a very good and detailed explanation of homoeopathy, and some informative and entertaining links too.

[Eos of the Eons]

I am NOT against someone believing in homeopathic remedies.


Afraid I would get "attacked" because I can't spell some rare condition that only a few people suffer from.:rolleyes: But it does exist and I am sure a poster here will find it.


I find it hard to believe that anyone can believe in magic water, but there are a heck of a lot out there that somehow do. I AM against it for the simple fact that some folks need actual medical care, not magic water drops or magic water evaporated after being dropped on sugar pills.


I think the silver disease is argyria.

Vitamin K (and some B?) is made by bacteria in the colon, and the colon needs to sop it up to ensure our health. A damaged colon may cause us to become deficient in vitamin K.

http://nutrition.about.com/od/nutrientglossary/g/vitamink.htm

[goodgirlonhere]

There is another important element that was missing here about risking malnutrition. The person's diet plays a big role in this. The people who typically get colon cleansings do have certain diets or foods they eat. These people aren't your average eaters. They are what many people would catagorize as "health nuts":cool:. Their diets may consist of lots of soluable fibers or other fruits/grains. These are already elements that general go to the large intensine system versus the small intensines.
For example: The body can NOT digest "corn". The remanents will pass through the large intensine providing no benefit. There are many other fibers/grains that the body can not digest goes straight through the large intensine. It is a the organ to get rid of the largest waste or undigestible substances. So if a person diet is filled with items that are largely filled with fibers and they get colon cleansings, it could seriously effect the body's nutrition.
A person can suffer from malnutrition even if they eat lot's of leafy greens and vegetables. The large intensine may have to "adapt" and be the main source of nutrition for the body if the body is only being fed items that can not be digested through the small intensine. Look at the third world environment. The "starving" countries are given a diet of lot's of grains/oats to keep them alive. You see how much malnutrition and starvation arises from such a diet. Why can't that happen to anyone else who develops a similar diet?

[Zep]

Sorry, GGOH, but can I suggest you go back to your Biology 101 textbook and read it again?

[LW]

I have read about one particular situation where doing "colonic irrigation" would bring concrete benefits. However, I don't have any medical knowledge so I can't say whether the effect was real or just folk belief.

The situation happened in a prison camp with really poor food. The inmates were given porrige that was made of unground grain so that it was mostly chaff, and nothing else. Since humans can't digest rye chaff, this diet caused severe intestional problems. One of the symptoms was that the inmates got "blocked up" and got painful cramps as result.

The treatment they used was to use a mouthpiece of a cigarette holder and a piece of rubber tube to insert small amount of water into colon and this supposedly cleared the blocking. Like I say, I don't know if this really works but the surviving prisoners came out believing that it did.

My source is Viljo Sohkanen's Punakaartilaisen päiväkirja ("Diary of a Red Guardist"). Sohkanen was an inmate in the Suomenlinna prison camp in 1918.

[Edited to add: the conditions in the 1918 prison camps were horrible enough to cause thousands of deaths for starvation and dysentry.]

[StoatBringer]

The question is how often does an enema/colonic cause a perferated colon?

For a treatment supposed to be safe (and no doubt, "natural"), I'd that even once was too much.

[Capsid]

For a treatment supposed to be safe (and no doubt, "natural"), I'd that even once was too much.
I think Barbrae is asking the frequency of perforations when using enemas/colonic interventions as compared to those caused by colonic irrigations? So the real question is what is the risk/benefit ratio? I don't see much benefit from colonic irrigation so the risk does not seem worth it.

[EagleEye]

Wow, what an interesting discussion I started... :)

[headscratcher4]

My mom is paying $50 per "treatment" for this "therapy". She claims that the "practitioner" (I hesitate to call him a "doctor") told her that getting these "warm water enemas" will help to reset the enzymes in her bowel and stomach to help her digest things properly, etc...

Evidently this is some form of weight loss treatment?

I know it's quackery, but I need stuff to print off and give to her to PROVE that it is.

I already printed off a page from quackwatch.com about it, but it's not very convincing.

Can anyone help me find appropriate material?

Possibly a good reason to have her committed and yourself appointed with her power of attorney.

[casebro]

Wow, what an interesting discussion I started... :)


Yeah, I always thought that WOO health theories were in the EYE of the beholder...

[Iamme]

I wonder if colonic cleanser practioners ever hire out to have their furnace ducts to be cleaned at home for hundreds of dollars. Or, if they 'see through it', because they too are in a similar business.

And do people who live to be 100+ plus...did they ever have their colon cleansed? I doubt it. And even if they had it cleaned out once in their life...wouldn't they be back to their same original condition after about 3 Happy Meals?

[clarsct]

Harken, fellow posters.

I believe this might be the most sense Iamme has made since he started here.

Or am I losing it?

[Eos of the Eons]

I have seen Iamme's capability to learn before. I hope to see it more often.

[clarsct]

Who could resist such encouragement?!

At any rate, I was just making sure. When certain folks start making sense, I reassess my values a bit and take stock. Although, I have to admit, he is more entertaining that Iacchus.

[Soapy Sam]

So, let me see if I understand this colonic irrigation business.
The basic idea is that you shove a hose up your butt and pump seawater in?
Then you pull the hose out and await results?
Did I miss something? Like the bit where you hit yourself on the head with a dumbass stick?

[Iamme]

Harken, fellow posters.

I believe this might be the most sense Iamme has made since he started here.

Or am I losing it?

Nahhhh. Some of you guys and gals just don't recognize a modern-day Einstein when you see one. :) Condiser pondering such thoughts: Why should you be able to dunk a paint brush in paint and have it stick to the brush real good. And then when you spread it on a wall, then it likes to stcik to the wall instead. Why? Why doesn't it prefer just to stay stuck to the brush? Ever think of that? Or..why is it that materials out in the sun, expand. Then why doesn't tar paper on a roof, which is put on before shingling, doesn't it get ripples in it when the sun hits it?! But you know what?... it stretches out tight and flat when the sun hits it! Ever close your eyes and you look at the nothing you see and wonder if THAT nothing is the same type of nothing that the universe is? Ever think that a magnets north and south attraction loop is like some cat chasing it's tail, and never catching it? Ever wonder if Murtphy's Law happens with animals? (Like, do monkeys or squirrels miss the branch, and fall to their deaths?)Ever wonder what makes you decide and think what you think about and what makes you want to do what you do? Ever wonder how someone like Thomas edison cold have had the brains and the time to have invented so many different unrelated things that has changed the course of history? (Could he have been a planted seed from God? What have *you* invented? Probably not even one simple thing. Yet this one man got like a thousand patents!!!)ever consider that giants could have been alive and built the pyramids and easter Island?.or that they new how to thwart gravity and this knowledge became lost with the lost civilization of Atlantis? Ever wonder what Adam and Eve did when they hit 45 and didn't have hear-sighted glasses? And how did they spend their retirement years without a deck of cards or a Scrabble game.

Stuff like that.

[Iamme]

Who could resist such encouragement?!

At any rate, I was just making sure. When certain folks start making sense, I reassess my values a bit and take stock. Although, I have to admit, he is more entertaining that Iacchus.

Entertaining? Like, starting threads that sound cornball, yet nobody can offer up proof that your cornball reasoning is not so? Isn't it fascinating how there is so little that we can actually PROVE when you get right down to it? We can prove 1 + 1 = 2. But we can't prove ...that Nessie ain't out there somewheres. And we can't even prove something as current and scientific as if global warming really exists. And it's rather interesting how, if religion and God(s) are a myth, that we can't offer evidence to show it's truly a myth.

[Iamme]

Should man have been born with an "owners manual"? The reason I ask this is that we find out after it's too late on what causes our teeth to rot. What causes our bones to get brittle. What causes our colons to load up with 15 pounds of caked on matter. What causes our arteries to plug up.

I ran this by my friend. He said there IS such a manual; it's called "The Bible". Hmmmm.

That got me thinking. What if stuff that we think is goofy sounding in the Bible, regarding kosher and not eating unclean meat, etc., has merit? They speak of wine in the Bible and maybe tea-toddlers should take note as it is now found that wine can actually promote good health. They also fasted in the Bible. Maybe drinking lots of water only, while fasting is one answer to helping to clear out your colon.

[Iamme]

So, let me see if I understand this colonic irrigation business.
The basic idea is that you shove a hose up your butt and pump seawater in?
Then you pull the hose out and await results?
Did I miss something? Like the bit where you hit yourself on the head with a dumbass stick?

Reminds me of the barium enema technique used at hospitals where they make you take an equivelent of like a gallon. And then you are to 'hold it' while they x-ray your entire colon...where people feel they are going to erupt right in the doctors face during the procedure. My friend had this done. Also my sister.

[HeyLeroy]

Hey, Iamme, ever wonder why a light switch is labelled 'on' and 'off'? If it's on, you know it's on, and when it's off, you can't see to read.

[Bronze Dog]

And it's rather interesting how, if religion and God(s) are a myth, that we can't offer evidence to show it's truly a myth.
Of course not: It's impossible to prove a negative.

What causes our colons to load up with 15 pounds of caked on matter.
Evidence of these 15 pounds of "caked on matter", please?

[Eos of the Eons]

Iamme, you are reading up on woo, and then coming here with woodom as "facts". We don't ever get gunged up with fecal matter like that, that is a woo myth, and it is used to sell you all kinds of wooishness they say is "designed to cleanse" you. It would be extremely painful if you ACTUALLY were that gunged up, and you'd need more than a "cleanse" to relieve you of such a horrible state.

An enema doesn't clean you up of anything that was stuck in there, it's just forcefully moving along your normal matter a lot more quickly. It's really not a healthy thing to do often, and is not meant to "cleanse" you. You get emptied out, that's it.

Ever wonder what Adam and Eve did when they hit 45 and didn't have hear-sighted glasses?
Prove it. Prove they existed, and then prove they even survived until 45. Then prove (once you show they beyond a shadow of a doubt they existed and they did survive) that they could see at all.

You think a lot. You ask a lot of questions. You haven't actually learned enough. All your questions about paint and shingles are easily answered. Go look it up.

[Dr. Imago]

Sorry, GGOH, but can I suggest you go back to your Biology 101 textbook and read it again?

No, I think GGOH knows exactly what "she's" doing.

-Dr. Imago