Dyslexia

[kittynh]

I have a daughter with severe dyslexia. We are talking thousands of hours of tutoring since she was quite young, and we are thrilled she can "kind of" read enough to barely function in the real world. Forget school, books on tape and an intensive LD program (along with even more expensive private tutoring) will get her through that AND through college.

I still get the "You didn't talk to her enough as a baby...."

or

"What did you feed her when she was young? Did you let her have sugar?"

or

"You should have read her books." (I DID!)

She has been down to Yale where important work is being done. There is now a gene that has been identified. I've seen the brain scans of my daughter that SHOW her brain works differently when attempting to read. So I'm familiar with the fact that she just IS this way.

I've also learned over the years that there is nothing wrong with her being this way. The differences in how her brain works may result in trouble reading and writing. But it has so many benefits also. She is a very creative thinker, and has a sense of empathy that I would not trade for making her "like everyone else". We need people with dyslexia. Walt Disney, Churchill, there are so many that has added so much to our lives, that I don't let her or myself think of this as a "problem" anymore. It's a pain, she STILL has to learn to read and write, because that is the way life it. But it is also a good thing.

here is the link to the latest "news". But the important part for me is at the end.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20051028/hl_hsn/researchersmayhavediscovereddyslexiagene

"Whether or not these findings translate into concrete gains for people with dyslexia, the research sends "a very important message to educators, parents and children, which is that you're not dumb. This isn't your fault. You're not a bad parent," Gruen said. "This is a transmitted difference in our gene that makes one person learn differently than another. That's all it is."

[shanek]

I've come to the same realization with my son, who as you know has autism. I should say, "is autistic," because autism isn't like a virus or disease or anything; it's just how he is. And since I love him, I have to love the autism.

And I know that his autism can also be a gift; I know that from the Temple Grandin books you clued me in on. Thanks!

[kittynh]

I feel for you Shanek. My friend with an autistic son said that people have said to her, "well, if only you hadn't had him vaccinated." What a guilt trip! She ofcourse knows that isn't true.

I wish we could just accept that people are all different, and that goes for brain activity too. Some work a different way. To imply that if you had done something "different" is to imply that the way your child is, is "wrong". That's confusing, but who is to say who is or is not important to our society and to the world?

[Lisa Simpson]

My younger brother is autistic. Back in the 70s, when we were kids, my mom was accused of 'not loving him enough' and that's what caused the autism.

[Boo]

Something I have noticed is that parents of children that are 'special' is that the diagnosis tends to drive them either over the edge woo or teaches them to become critical thinkers.

While I had some skills in that area it wasn't until my twins were diagnosed that I really learned how to apply it. There is so much information that needs to be gone through as you attempt to educate yourself and those around you. Unfortunately, there are those that, for whatever reason, need to find someone or thing to blame while searching for a miracle cure.


Those of us that learn or rely on critical thinking skills are to busy working to find root causes and supporting research then to go out chasing every miracle cure that comes down the path. Personally, I wasn't all that suprised to find a number of JREF folks that have children or family members that have any number of medical conditions. We either started out as skeptical/critical thinkers or developed into them and ended up here.


Being here has helped me more as a parent thyan any number of the autistic support sites I tried.



Boo

[kittynh]

And it's important to value all people.

Being there is more important than as I read from one autistic site, "Making sure this doesn't happen to another child". Hello???

[Zep]

Autism has germs?

Dyslexia is a virus?

:eek:

[Roboramma]

I was diagnosed with severe dyslexia when I was young. Of course I don't really know how extreme my case was, because they don't tend to tell the kid that, but my mother told me at one point that it was a severe case anyway.
I hated reading for so long. I remember how difficult and confusing it was. Such a struggle didn't seem worth it for a long time. On the other hand I always wanted to read. I loved being read to, but picking up a book, when every line I would get tripped up. Ugh.
I also remember teachers calling me stupid because I did poorly on spelling tests.
Ah, well. I still don't read as fast as most people, but it's my favorite past time. And its not at all painful anymore, not for a long time. So that's saying something.
How old is your daughter? Not saying its easy or will be the same for her as for me, but with the right teachers and people who know that she won't learn in the same way as everyone else, I'm sure she'll be able to cope quite well. And it sounds like you're giving her that. :)

[Zep]

Robo and Kitty, I'm sure you will find a number of regular posters here who are affected by dyslexia to varying degrees, and have many ways and means to cope with it. :w2: AND! Kitten2 gets free membership in the DNA - National Dyslexics Association! :D

[wollery]

Dyslexia comes in many different guises.

I have no real problem with reading or writing, but I do have a problem with symbol recognition. I had to spend ages learning the Greek alphabet when we started using it for maths and physics at school. I've been doing physics in one form or another ever since, so I've been using the Greek letters on a regular basis for more than 20 years, but I still have difficulty with some of them!

[shanek]

I feel for you Shanek. My friend with an autistic son said that people have said to her, "well, if only you hadn't had him vaccinated." What a guilt trip! She ofcourse knows that isn't true.

As long as no one tries Facilitated Communication on him. All she needs is some sick-minded facilitator conjuring up stories of sexual abuse...

[shanek]

Something I have noticed is that parents of children that are 'special' is that the diagnosis tends to drive them either over the edge woo or teaches them to become critical thinkers.

Well, I was a critical thinker to begin with, and even I found myself to be vulnerable. Of course (with some help) I was able to realize that these things were bunk, but I certainly felt the compelling emotional need to find something to blame, someone to explain to me WHY.

Being skeptics doesn't make us immune to that.

[Chaos]

Well, I was a critical thinker to begin with, and even I found myself to be vulnerable. Of course (with some help) I was able to realize that these things were bunk, but I certainly felt the compelling emotional need to find something to blame, someone to explain to me WHY.

Being skeptics doesn't make us immune to that.

I wonder, are there any brands of woo that claim to be able to heal dyslexia or autism?

[Boo]

I wonder, are there any brands of woo that claim to be able to heal dyslexia or autism?


There are some who believe that gluten allergy in young children causes the signs and symptoms of Autism and that by removing all gluten from the diet "cures" the child. From what I have found in my own reading is that if a gluten free diet cures your child then they weren't Autistic but they had a gluten allergy. Simple research shows that there are several conditions that have similar presentations as Autism including Fragile X and left temporal lobe seizures, as well as gluten allergies.

Another fairly common "cure" is B complex vitamin deficiency and that by giving your child a special vitamin with a specific level of the B vitamins it will also cure them of Autism.

When I am approached by people that have heard of "cures" for Autism my standard reply is "If the child was cured then they didn't have Autism."



Boo

[brodski]

I wonder, are there any brands of woo that claim to be able to heal dyslexia or autism?

I've seen all manners of woo which claim m to be able to treat dyslexia/dyspraxia, from "teaching yourself adult reflexes" to "brain gym" type claims that dyslexics are just dehydrated. Every so often I get told that macro doses of evening primrose oil can "cure" my dyslexia.

Of course the other woo type claim is that "dyslexia doesn't exist", but then their's no money to be made from that opinion, so it doesn't get touted about quite so often anymore.

[shanek]

I wonder, are there any brands of woo that claim to be able to heal dyslexia or autism?

Wakefield, the guy behind the autism/MMR claims, claims to have medicine that will heal autism.

[Chaos]

Wakefield, the guy behind the autism/MMR claims, claims to have medicine that will heal autism.

An anti-vaxxer? :boggled:

Well, one wonders why he hasn´t yet sent his medicine through the proper scientific channels and made billions off his world-shattering discovery.

On the other hand, that being a typical sCAM woo, one doesn´t really wonder all that much. :mad:

[kittynh]

I get more dyslexia stories. My daughter is one of the worst tested by Yale University! You should see what areas of her brains light up (and don't light up when she reads). The average reader has these lovely bright red areas, and Kitten2 has this little pale blue blob. Only on one side!

What a bummer I fed her sugar.

[Zep]

Which side of her head is the one that "lights up", Kitty?

[kittynh]

this little spot in the back on the right side...if I'm not looking at it upside down! It should be RED and on both sides. Oh well...blue is good too!

[Jyera]

this little spot in the back on the right side...if I'm not looking at it upside down! It should be RED and on both sides. Oh well...blue is good too!
Is it the side of the brain, the doctor says, is consistent with the side the child uses for creativity and pattern recognition?

Is she capable of doing reading properly, with apparently only one side of the brain? OR is she struggling to go along?

If you cover up her left eye, which is connected to the right brain, and require her to do reading with only her right eye. Does she do better or does she do worse? OR does refuse to read?

[geni]

I wonder, are there any brands of woo that claim to be able to heal dyslexia or autism?


Rather a lot. Chelation appears to be the favirot amoung quacks dealing with autism right now but there is not shortage of diets and the like. I don't see so much for dyslexia at the moment.

[Zep]

Is it the side of the brain, the doctor says, is consistent with the side the child uses for creativity and pattern recognition?

Is she capable of doing reading properly, with apparently only one side of the brain? OR is she struggling to go along?

If you cover up her left eye, which is connected to the right brain, and require her to do reading with only her right eye. Does she do better or does she do worse? OR does refuse to read?Snap! Exactly the questions I was leading to!

[TragicMonkey]

I wonder, are there any brands of woo that claim to be able to heal dyslexia or autism?

Tom Cruise credits Scientology for overcoming his dyslexia.

Too bad Scientology can't help with, you know, the madness.

[shanek]

Tom Cruise credits Scientology for overcoming his dyslexia.

Too bad Scientology can't help with, you know, the madness.

Hmmm...be rid of dyslexia, but in return, be completely insane just like Tom Cruise?

'Tain't wuth it!

[LordoftheLeftHand]

My girlfriend is dyslexic and it gives her trouble with math. She has no trouble performing operations with numbers, but she tends to transcribe the numbers or just read them incorrectly (like mistakes a 5 for a 9). She says she used to have special math books where each numbers was highlighted a different color (like all 5's might be brown), kind of like reading a resistor. She said this seemed to help.

It's kind of funny getting directions from her. She will say, "turn left at the next light", but point to the right (I've found it is best to follow her arms instead of what she says).

LLH

[magicflute]

I also have dyslexia. It's not too bad normally. Since I am a programmer any misplaced letters tend to cause problems. Since vocabulary of programming languages is limited and I always seem to make the same mistakes, I wrote a little spell checker to correct my problem.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

My son is dyslexic, although clearly not as severly as Kitty's daughter. He is a slow reader, although improving. He cannot spell much at all, due to his lack of phonemic awareness. It also seems to give him problems with planning multi-step tasks.

My daughter has a problem with noun recall, which also pretty much trashed her math ability. We are working on that intensively. She has no trouble reading or spelling. And she has perfect pitch, much to the delight of my wife.

These are all our children and we love them just because.

~~ Paul

[kittynh]

Yale has tried all sorts of cool things with her. Eye patches and all.

The problem with her is that there is just too little activity. It's like a very weak muscle, trying to do what needs 2 strong muscles.

We are doing a lot of the training other parts of the brain to take over. this is by getting her to read ANYTHING. So Nova Land sends her comics (short little quips, good), I get her every trashy girly magazine (want to know how to condition your hair?). It doesn't matter what she reads, so long as she reads.

I'm told how she is doing is almost a miracle (or hard work!). No other child with her limited abilities can read as well as she can. She is busy training on Dragonspeak for writing, since this will be a skill that probably will never be developed beyond the most basic of levels. She is classified by Yale as being "unable to learn to read" on their scale, but they were willing to help us anyway. We got good tutors and no one gave up, and today this girl can read. Kind of...the funny thing is that she recently tested at 98% comprehension but only read 2 out of every 3 words on the test. No clue how she does it!

Her new tutor is a professor at Landmark College. (THE MOST EXPENSIVE COLLEGE IN THE US!!!! YEAH NUMBER ONE!!!). the tutor likes to introduce her to other profs and educators there by holding up her brain scan....everyone goes "oooowwwwwww!!!!"

She herself has said that she would not change her dyslexia because dealing with it has made her who she is. Plus she said she has made friend with and met the most wonderful people who have helped her with her dyslexia.


I wouldn't trade her for most of the other teenage girls I see around. She's a skeptic too, and recently listed one of the highlights of her life as "Hugging Mr.Randi when he came to talk in Boston." Now that's some girl!

Oh and Paul's kids are the cat's pajamas. Really cute, and polite. They are such keepers!

[Zep]

It's kind of funny getting directions from her. She will say, "turn left at the next light", but point to the right (I've found it is best to follow her arms instead of what she says).

LLHSnap again! That's me! If I'm giving driving directions myself, I'll point and get it right 100% of the time. But if I have to say the directions - right or left - I get it wrong about 50% of the time!

The effect in my brain is quite weird - I feel like I have to concentrate and "re-learn" right and left each time I have to say it. If I rush it, the result is random (i.e. 50%), but I can get it right properly if I can concentrate on it for a few seconds. It's sort of like tying to recall some long-forgotten memory each time...you remember it but only with effort.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Zep, I have some trouble with left and right, too. I remember left is first in alphabetical order, and the words are placed on the page in alphabetical order, so left will be first and right second. Since we read from left to right, that works.

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Kind of...the funny thing is that she recently tested at 98% comprehension but only read 2 out of every 3 words on the test. No clue how she does it! At least 33% of the words in any document are superfluous!

At least 33% words in document superfluous!

~~ Paul

[CFLarsen]

Zep, I have some trouble with left and right, too. I remember left is first in alphabetical order, and the words are placed on the page in alphabetical order, so left will be first and right second. Since we read from left to right, that works.

Good thing you are not an Arab.

Or Japanese.

[kittynh]

Italians have the lowest rate of dyslexia.

I'm not sure if it is the language or what.

I considered teaching her Italian!

[jj]

I have a daughter with severe dyslexia.
...
I still get the "You didn't talk to her enough as a baby...."

or

"What did you feed her when she was young? Did you let her have sugar?"

or

"You should have read her books." (I DID!)"


These people deserve something that one can't ethically give them. Sheesh!

Speaking as a dyslexic-type person (no problem reading, massive problems with left/right and let's not talk about handwriting. keyboards put the letters the right way and move the curser the right way, which is a vast improvement, but we all know about my spelling), that's just deeply offensive.

Speaking as the parent of a person who is so much like me as to be frightening in some respects (and female) this kind of stuff really peeves me.

I have heard from teachers "I don't think she's trying", and a lot of other stuff. In NJ she was classified for writing only (after a battle that was required to get across the point that reading was not impaired, which we initially lost, and for which she read her "500 pages for the year" in a week, in an adult novel instead of the kiddie books, and for which they caved in after being confronted with that). Here, they say "she doesn't do badly enough", so of course her grades in courses she's good at suffer at the hands of handwriting. :(

[jj]

Zep, I have some trouble with left and right, too. I remember left is first in alphabetical order, and the words are placed on the page in alphabetical order, so left will be first and right second. Since we read from left to right, that works.

~~ Paul

Well, I know that problem, as well. I simply draw a map. It will be right. Pay no attention to my "right" and "left" statements. Please. :)

And I remember in school when they told me "hold up your hands with the thumbs out, your left hand is the one that makes the 'l'".

Riiiiight. Err, that's called "lady, you just don't get it. I see two of them, not zero."

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Good thing you are not an Arab.

Or Japanese. Maybe I'd be lucky and the words for left and right would work out in the other direction. One can hope.

~~ Paul

Edited to add: How does one alphabetize Japanese?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I have heard from teachers "I don't think she's trying", and a lot of other stuff. In NJ she was classified for writing only (after a battle that was required to get across the point that reading was not impaired, which we initially lost, and for which she read her "500 pages for the year" in a week, in an adult novel instead of the kiddie books, and for which they caved in after being confronted with that). Here, they say "she doesn't do badly enough", so of course her grades in courses she's good at suffer at the hands of handwriting.
I presume that's not just because they take off points for bad handwriting, right? It's because her handwriting is so bad the teachers can't read it, right?

If I'm right, then ask them to provide a scribe for handwriting-intensive tests.

~~ Paul

[kittynh]

My daughter gets academic support. When ever she has a test she can leave her class and take the test with support in a special lab they have for the LD kids. She's getting an A plus in her one mainstream class. this is a problem...

One thing they brought up is "what if the other parents also want their kids to take their tests with help?" Sort of, if they find out she got an A plus, they'll ALL want academic support! Huh? The whole point is that if it WORKS, then you have to take it away...

It's that whole A plus, I'm going to ask the teacher to just make it an A minus. Or a B plus. Because A plus just means she doesn't need it.

It wouldn't have anything to do with her private tutor I pay for, or the fact that she covered all this material last year in MIddle School.

[Tmy]

Can you have minor dyslexia? Ive always been a terrible speller. I always thought I had some undiagnosed duslexia.

[jj]

I presume that's not just because they take off points for bad handwriting, right? It's because her handwriting is so bad the teachers can't read it, right?

If I'm right, then ask them to provide a scribe for handwriting-intensive tests.

~~ Paul

Things spelled wrong, difficulty finishing in-class writing without a computer, etc.

Basically, when writing thigns down, she slows down from her usual speed by some gigantic factor.

[shanek]

And I remember in school when they told me "hold up your hands with the thumbs out, your left hand is the one that makes the 'l'".

I remember that. I remember thinking, oh, great...now I have to remember which way the "L" goes to remember which one's my left!

With me, though, it was only the concept of right/left that got me, not the actual direction. So, for example, I could always remember the way you turn at an intersection to go somewhere, but I would always tell people, "And then you turn right...no, left...no, wait..." I knew which way to turn, and could point to it, but figuring out left and right has always been a problem for me.

[jj]

I remember that. I remember thinking, oh, great...now I have to remember which way the "L" goes to remember which one's my left!

With me, though, it was only the concept of right/left that got me, not the actual direction. So, for example, I could always remember the way you turn at an intersection to go somewhere, but I would always tell people, "And then you turn right...no, left...no, wait..." I knew which way to turn, and could point to it, but figuring out left and right has always been a problem for me.

Yep. I draw a map, it will come out just fine, and in general I navigate and draw maps a great bloody lot better than most anyone. Just don't ask me if the turn "that way" is "left" or "right". Look where I point. :)

I got sent to the principle's office for "not listening" when my 4th grade teacher told me the idiot 'L' thing. I asked her "which L", she asked me which was "left", I got it wrong, and she screamed at me and sent me to the office.

Sheesh.

[LostAngeles]

I am the only non-dyslexic in my immediate family. My mother was essentially illiterate and was treated as "dumb" during her school career. She was in art school when she met, married my father, and had me.

They tell me I started reading at about eighteen months. They would get a new book and she would sit down to read to me and I would correct her. She was so embarressed that she stopped reading to me and made my father do it.

After a while, she realized that was ridiculous and sat down and taught herself how to read. (Her personal preference, which she's taught to me, is to turn the book upside down.)

The hag then spent the next twenty years raiding my bookcases.

I know that hers causes problems when it comes to left/right. This has been slightly passed on to me when it comes to gesturing or giving directions, since I'm not used to saying, "left," or, "right." I would say, "your side," or, "my side," or point and say, "over there."

My father's and my sister's is lighter. Neither of them have ever actually talked to me about it. My sister is still embarressed by it and my dad's a flake. With my mother, she clearly credits me with having helped her with this (you know how much she loves the story I told? *sigh*) so she's more willing to talk about what it's like and such things.

jj, my sister had a similar experience. I don't think it helped her that when I had gone through the school system, I stopped doing work and just started coasting because... well a bunch of reasons. Even after my mother went to an outside source and had her tested, they still sent her to a behavoirist.

Mom had her transferred out after a big fight.

[Darat]

Has anyone ever seen any research on this "left/right" problem. I've mentioned it here in the past but it is certainly prevalent in my family. Nearly all my cousins on my maternal side have the problem, no instinct of what is left or right, it's all "the hand you write with" or "I meant the other left".

[dann]

One thing they brought up is "what if the other parents also want their kids to take their tests with help?" Sort of, if they find out she got an A plus, they'll ALL want academic support! Huh? The whole point is that if it WORKS, then you have to take it away...
(...)
It wouldn't have anything to do with her private tutor I pay for, or the fact that she covered all this material last year in MIddle School.
It has everything to do with the fact that education in our part of the world is competition: (A plus, C minus etc.). If it weren't, other parents wouldn't feel threatened just because somebody's child got better grades than their own. And parents of dyslectic children would only have to worry about dyslexia, about teaching their children to read - not about the competitive disadvantage of dyslexia.

Edited to add:
What I wanted to say was: "... just because somebody's child was better at reading than their own." The grades are the instrument of competition.

[Plognark]

I've always had minor dyslexia, but I've mostly managed to get over it. The only leftover I have is an unusually high tendency to re-arrange 4 or 5 digit numbers, so phone numbers and zip codes give me some problems. And, of course, I had to get a job where I work with numbers all the time. Hehe.

I didn't get over the lack of left-right distinction until I was around ten years old. I would always reverse my letters. Caused a lot of problems with lower case b's and d's especially.

I'm not sure why I just suddenly figured it out though, but it seems like it happened over one summer. I just suddenly 'got it' going into fifth grade.

[kittynh]

A lot of people do just "get it". The thought is your brain decides to find another way to do it, or another part of your brain takes it over.

I'm not worried about Kitten2 in the real world. The girl knows how to WORK. She does more work than the other kids. She had to do a project for a class (mainstream). She built a copy of Hatshepsuts oblisk. 80% of the kids didn't do anything. Period. The project was supposed to be done on your own time over the course of a month. She worked on this thing everynight. It's a work of art. (mind you, it's smaller than the real one, but pretty darn BIG). She also had a detailed written report about the history of the King/Queen. She used Dragonspeak to "write" it, and I read all the research while she took notes in her tape recorder.

But....I recently saw a show on tv about twin boys that live at a hotel (it's on the Disney channel). They showed one of the boys faking dyslexia so he could "get out of work". He wouldn't do his homework joking, "well, I'll just tell my teacher I tried my best!" They totally bought the belief that kids with LD are asked to do easier work and get a break on work required. Right....thanks Disney!

You do not want to be parent at a school board meeting where the school board claims that the budget is all shot to heck because of the LD kids. Fun fun fun...

And yet I wonder why other parents say to me, "Well, she seems smart, are you sure she should be labelled LD?" hey, she is smart!

[Kiless]

I'm the same. Left and right confuse me. I have to navigate by landmarks, as I can't handle signs very well. Dance class has helped although I get the 'lead with the OTHER left!' now and then. :D

[CFLarsen]

I remember that. I remember thinking, oh, great...now I have to remember which way the "L" goes to remember which one's my left!

With me, though, it was only the concept of right/left that got me, not the actual direction. So, for example, I could always remember the way you turn at an intersection to go somewhere, but I would always tell people, "And then you turn right...no, left...no, wait..." I knew which way to turn, and could point to it, but figuring out left and right has always been a problem for me.

You must be a real horror in traffic.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Italians have the lowest rate of dyslexia.

I'm not sure if it is the language or what.

I considered teaching her Italian!

It's because they talk with their hands. And you can't do that backwards. Or sideways.

[jj]

You must be a real horror in traffic.


Why? He's like me in this regard, he knows which way to turn, it's the words "left' and 'right" that create problems.

[CFLarsen]

Why? He's like me in this regard, he knows which way to turn, it's the words "left' and 'right" that create problems.
Exactly.

http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_TN/0001-0406-0814-1230_TN.jpg

[Zep]

Zep, I have some trouble with left and right, too. I remember left is first in alphabetical order, and the words are placed on the page in alphabetical order, so left will be first and right second. Since we read from left to right, that works.

~~ PaulI can get it correct - I have not forgotten left or right. I just need to dredge it up from deep archive each time...

[Zep]

Good thing you are not an Arab.

Or Japanese.Interestingly, text that "flows the other way" is usually relatively easy for most dyslexics to "comprehend".

[Zep]

You must be a real horror in traffic.If you are doing the driving and someone says "Turn left" and you start turning right, what do you think!! ;)

[Zep]

Heh! We need an OD (Dyslexics Only) party at TAM4... Maybe at a Japanese restaurant?? ;)

[CFLarsen]

Interestingly, text that "flows the other way" is usually relatively easy for most dyslexics to "comprehend".

Evidence?

[CFLarsen]

If you are doing the driving and someone says "Turn left" and you start turning right, what do you think!! ;)

Hey, it will probably work in Libertopia.... ;)

[Zep]

Evidence?Yep, there's plenty of it about! :D

[jj]

Heh! We need an OD (Dyslexics Only) party at TAM4... Maybe at a Japanese restaurant?? ;)

Seeing as I might actually be able to come, sure. I can be the righthand dyslexic. Or something. :D

I wish I could bring the 15 year old, then we could be the "right and left hand dyslexics" and we'd get it right either way. :p

[CFLarsen]

Yep, there's plenty of it about! :D

Can I see it?

[shanek]

Why? He's like me in this regard, he knows which way to turn, it's the words "left' and 'right" that create problems.
Because Claus has to find any and every reason to disparage me, and the moderators, apparently, don't care...

[Jyera]

I sometimes give wrong direction as well. When I want to tell the driver to turn in one direction, I say the oppoosite.

Here's a little story...

Once upon a time, 2 caveman standing apart and facing each other
were "talking". Suddenly, a lion appear on the right behind of one of them.
The other caveman shouted. "Lion !!! On the left!"

They survived.
And so it was the first gene that exhibited left/right mild dylexia.

[Zep]

Can I see it?Yes you can! :D

[CFLarsen]

Yes you can! :D
Show me!

[CFLarsen]

Because Claus has to find any and every reason to disparage me, and the moderators, apparently, don't care...
Apparently, I didn't break any rules, then.

[Zep]

Show me!You did not say when. :D

[CFLarsen]

You did not say when. :D

OK, you don't have it.

[jj]

Apparently, I didn't break any rules, then.


Gotta say I felt a touch disparaged, too.

[CFLarsen]

How disparaging it may seem, you do not want to meet someone in traffic who has any difficulties with the concepts of "left" and "right".

[Soapy Sam]

Seem to be a lot of people here who consider themselves dyslexic. (I didn't, but I find after reading a few of Geni's posts I get confused about which end of the dictionary is up. Maybe it is transmissable.)

I wonder if we are all using the same definition of "dyslexic". Being poor at spelling may have many causes - for example never having bothered to learn. I'm bad at any sport involving balls or sticks for the same reason.

We all have mental strengths and weaknesses. I can't visualise and have almost no grasp of mathematical abstracts for instance. No doubt lots of people are the same. If this is a recognised "syndrome" I have yet to hear a name for it though, which may be because doctors and neurologists don't study it. Dyslexia is seen as important, because it disrupts an ability we all use- reading and symbol manipulation.
But brains can't be good at everything. Is dyslexia just the most easily recognised of a large range of behavioural variations due to neural "wiring" variation?

[CFLarsen]

Good points.

[Mycroft]

Exactly.

http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_TN/0001-0406-0814-1230_TN.jpg

There are also other visual cues to rely on.

[Mycroft]

Apparently, I didn't break any rules, then.

So you admit to finding any and every reason to disparage him?

[CFLarsen]

There are also other visual cues to rely on.

Like what?

[CFLarsen]

So you admit to finding any and every reason to disparage him?

Where did you get that from??

[jj]

Like what?

Well, believe it or not, the place the steering wheel sits helps disambiguate things.

Of course, I have no trouble driving in the UK, either. My spouse, every morning, however, does remind me "remember, left and right are backwards here, dear"...

[jj]

How disparaging it may seem, you do not want to meet someone in traffic who has any difficulties with the concepts of "left" and "right".

Well, Claus, the last 4 auto accidents I've had (that would be all in the last 30 years) in all 4 cases my car has been (*&(*& stationary, and properly so, when struck.

Admittedly, one of them was when a tree fell on my trunk (that's boot, to you UK people, I think, not bonnet).

One was when it was parked and unattended.

The other two were at a stop sign (I got front-ended at a stop sign. go ahead, I dare you to figure out how that could happen at a stop sign) and at a traffic light and I was properly stopped in the right place both times.

[jj]

Where did you get that from??

Exercise of the excluded middle, perhaps?

[Mycroft]

Like what?

It's not very common for road signs to be completely arbitrary. If there is a “no left turn” sign, it’s normally because a left hand turn would either put you the wrong way into a one way street, or because the traffic on the street is too heavy to allow people to stop and wait for a break in the oncoming traffic. These are things that can be observed if it takes more than a moment or two to translate what “left” means.

Also, when you think about it, “no right turn” signs are relatively uncommon as there is rarely a safety issue in making a right turn because you don’t have to cross the lanes of oncoming traffic.

What’s described by Shanek, JJ and others isn’t the inability to distinguish left from right, but just a moment of confusion while they sort it out. This doesn’t translate into unsafe driving, as you claim, as road signs are normally placed so you have plenty of time to consider their meaning before you need to react.

Also, let’s not forget most of these signs look like this:




http://z.about.com/d/geography/1/0/Y/E/s37.JPG

[Jeff Corey]

A guy in town had a used record shop, back in the days when there were record shops, called One Way Records, the sign looked like this:
<- ONE WAY ->
this has nothing to do with dyslexia, either.

[CFLarsen]

It's not very common for road signs to be completely arbitrary. If there is a “no left turn” sign, it’s normally because a left hand turn would either put you the wrong way into a one way street, or because the traffic on the street is too heavy to allow people to stop and wait for a break in the oncoming traffic. These are things that can be observed if it takes more than a moment or two to translate what “left” means.

Also, when you think about it, “no right turn” signs are relatively uncommon as there is rarely a safety issue in making a right turn because you don’t have to cross the lanes of oncoming traffic.

What’s described by Shanek, JJ and others isn’t the inability to distinguish left from right, but just a moment of confusion while they sort it out. This doesn’t translate into unsafe driving, as you claim, as road signs are normally placed so you have plenty of time to consider their meaning before you need to react.

Also, let’s not forget most of these signs look like this:




http://z.about.com/d/geography/1/0/Y/E/s37.JPG

I'm not talking about those signs. I'm talking about the sign I posted.

Where are those other visual cues? Yes, in the picture I posted.

[Zep]

OK, you don't have it.OK, enuff funnin'. :) I'll try to dig out some stuff I saw a few years ago on this, and bring it to Vegas in January. OK?

[Zep]

OK, Claus. Let me use the examples we have at hand.

This one is a problem for me as a mild dyslexic, and I think for a few others here. It involves having to READ IT in WORDS, then "figure out", perhaps instantly, where "left' and "right" are. Therefore it MAY be a problem.

As a personal example, if I happened to be driving in the USA, I would be travelling on the right side of the road, i.e. the opposite side of the road to which I usually drive (we are the same as the UK). So I would be concentrating on that situation fairly hard for a start, to not have an accident! Then it is likely this sign will be on the right side of the roadway, and I will therefore be looking right to see it. So chances are I will "read" that sign as the equivalent of a No RIGHT Turn - the exact opposite of its intent!

http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_TN/0001-0406-0814-1230_TN.jpg

However this sign is fine for me. The reason is that it has a visual "pointer" in some direction and shows that a turn in that direction is forbidden. This direction could be labelled "left" or "right", (or hot, cold, up, down, Friday, cabbage, Claus, whatever), and the effect is no different. What is quite clear in my mind instantly is that a turn in THAT direction is forbidden. Instant recognition and understanding, no problem.

http://z.about.com/d/geography/1/0/Y/E/s37.JPG

[CFLarsen]

OK, enuff funnin'. :) I'll try to dig out some stuff I saw a few years ago on this, and bring it to Vegas in January. OK?

Fine(ally). Or post it here. :)

See? It works being persistent....

[Zep]

Fine(ally). Or post it here. :)

See? It works being persistent....Can't. I think it's in a book somewhere in a box in storage on the other side of this city (I own a LOT of crap!). Or at my father-in-law's place in the country (he's a GP). What with all the other pressing problems I'm dealing with just now, like unemployment, it gets to be priority 238 in my list of 20 things I must do now. But I'll try to get to it before I get on the plane in January, OK?

[Mycroft]

I'm not talking about those signs. I'm talking about the sign I posted.

You're claim was that these people are dangerous drivers, yet you fail to address the reasons I claimed they were not.


Where are those other visual cues? Yes, in the picture I posted.

The picture you posted showed only the sign and not the road it was on. If a real driver were to have such severe tunnel-vision that they could only see a road sign, then they should not be driving and it would have nothing to do with momentary left/right confusion.

Other visual cues were commented on previously, if you wish to review.

[kittynh]

[QUOTE=Mycroft;1270419]You're claim



QUOTE]
OK, if a person's inability to write and read correctly is a sign of their not being safe drivers...."You are claim"? "Your claim"?

Really, talking on a cell phone or just being darn old is a much greater danger.

[Diamond]

My girlfriend is dyslexic and it gives her trouble with math. She has no trouble performing operations with numbers, but she tends to transcribe the numbers or just read them incorrectly (like mistakes a 5 for a 9). She says she used to have special math books where each numbers was highlighted a different color (like all 5's might be brown), kind of like reading a resistor. She said this seemed to help.

It's kind of funny getting directions from her. She will say, "turn left at the next light", but point to the right (I've found it is best to follow her arms instead of what she says).

LLH

That's called dyscalculia, not dyslexia

[Diamond]

I am not dyslexic. Having met some dyslexics, I think we can all thank scientists and the scientific method for demonstrating that dyslexia is a disfunction of the brain, that it is congenital, and that dyslexic people are not stupid, infectious or suffering from a behavioral disorder or some form of parental abuse. The dyslexics I've met have been rather creative and thoughtful, in comparison to a lot of non-dyslexics I've known.

[kittynh]

yeah, we need them. The one lesson I learned from Temple Grandin is that the world is better for ALL of us because of people that do "think differently". It's not "abnormal", as it actually works as a plus for all humanity.

[Zep]

Like pillory, for example.

[jj]

How disparaging it may seem, you do not want to meet someone in traffic who has any difficulties with the concepts of "left" and "right".


Bull. Complete and absolute. You'd never know, and never see any ill effects, either.

[CFLarsen]

You're claim was that these people are dangerous drivers, yet you fail to address the reasons I claimed they were not.

Liar.

Jeebus creebus, Mycroft, why do you lie so blatantly? Because you believe that the greater lie, the easier it is for people to swallow it?

That will work, unless someone points it out.

The picture you posted showed only the sign and not the road it was on. If a real driver were to have such severe tunnel-vision that they could only see a road sign, then they should not be driving and it would have nothing to do with momentary left/right confusion.

Other visual cues were commented on previously, if you wish to review.

If, if, if. I asked you where those other visual clues were, and you come up with imaginary visual clues?

Do you really have such disdain for your audience? You really think they will gobble up this crap of yours?

[CFLarsen]

Can't. I think it's in a book somewhere in a box in storage on the other side of this city (I own a LOT of crap!). Or at my father-in-law's place in the country (he's a GP). What with all the other pressing problems I'm dealing with just now, like unemployment, it gets to be priority 238 in my list of 20 things I must do now. But I'll try to get to it before I get on the plane in January, OK?

It better be there. Or you get the comfy chair.

[CFLarsen]

Bull. Complete and absolute. You'd never know, and never see any ill effects, either.

Shirley, you gest(ate).

[Zep]

Claus, I DID explain to you in this post (http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showpost.php?p=1270118&postcount=85) how the left/right thing actually works for us dyslexics most of the time. Please understand that this is from the point of view of someone who actually experiences this as a daily occurrence - we know of which we speak.

It is NO HAZARD for me to drive, and I doubt it is for people like jj who also have this issue to deal with. In fact I have been complemented many times on my driving skill. If you wish, ask Truthseeker - I drove her around for two days, and I didn't hear a lot of panicky squeals during that time. I also taught Zeplette to drive, she only ever had two "professional" lessons with other people, but preferred my teaching instead. I think I did a good job - she passed her driving test first go with flying colours...

[CFLarsen]

Claus, I DID explain to you in this post (http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showpost.php?p=1270118&postcount=85) how the left/right thing actually works for us dyslexics most of the time. Please understand that this is from the point of view of someone who actually experiences this as a daily occurrence - we know of which we speak.

I am fully aware of the shortcomings of directional clues that consist of only words, and not pictograms. The latter are far more efficient than the written words.

I have never understood the penchant for writing "WALK" and "STOP" at a crosswalk. Use icons, dimwits....

It is NO HAZARD for me to drive, and I doubt it is for people like jj who also have this issue to deal with. In fact I have been complemented many times on my driving skill. If you wish, ask Truthseeker - I drove her around for two days, and I didn't hear a lot of panicky squeals during that time. I also taught Zeplette to drive, she only ever had two "professional" lessons with other people, but preferred my teaching instead. I think I did a good job - she passed her driving test first go with flying colours...

Anecdotal evidence, I'm afraid. If you have problems differentiating between left and right, then you will have problems driving safely. Such a fundamental skill is an absolute necessity.

You will probably get along just fine in most situations. But in a dangerous situation, where you don't have time to mull it over, even for a second or two, your lack of ability will pose a threat.

The concept of "left" and "right" is so fundamental that we often forget just how important they are. We should never dismiss the problems involved with not being fully aware, at any time, at any given moment.

[LostAngeles]

So why aren't there dyslexia tests along with the vision tests when driving licenses are issued and/or renewed?

What kind of dangerous situation could arise while driving where the inability to differentiate "right" and "left" is there? Having to swerve away from something? You simply swerve away from it, which ever way is best. You don't think, "Oh my God! I must swerve left! Wait, which way is left? *smash*" It goes, "[rule 8]! *swerve away*" Passing on the right? With a bit of common sense, it's not too hard to know that's not the side to pass on. (In the U.S.)

Claus, m'dear, you made the intial claim, you know the rules. I don't need to spell them out for you.

[delphi_ote]

So why aren't there dyslexia tests along with the vision tests when driving licenses are issued and/or renewed?

Good point. Just to cover their butts, the DMV asks if you have all kinds of other problems that might impair your driving in Florida and Ohio. Black outs, seizures, etc. Dyslexia was not among these last ditch effort questions in either state. Even if it cost too much to test, you'd think they could at least ask if you were dyslexic.

[LostAngeles]

Good point. Just to cover their butts, the DMV asks if you have all kinds of other problems that might impair your driving in Florida and Ohio. Black outs, seizures, etc. Dyslexia was not among these last ditch effort questions in either state. Even if it cost too much to test, you'd think they could at least ask if you were dyslexic.

As much as I think Claus's assertation is total bull, I think it'd be interesting and worth looking into to see if any DMV or RMV or whatever alphabet soup handles driver's licenses does, in fact, restrict driving privliges with regards to dyslexia. The reason I'm throwing this out there and not doing it myself? I'm going to bed and the next four days are full of scheduling goodness. Also, turkey.

And um, that whole thing about claimer provides evidence. And turkey. With stuffing.

[Mycroft]

Liar.

Jeebus creebus, Mycroft, why do you lie so blatantly? Because you believe that the greater lie, the easier it is for people to swallow it?

That will work, unless someone points it out.



If, if, if. I asked you where those other visual clues were, and you come up with imaginary visual clues?

Do you really have such disdain for your audience? You really think they will gobble up this crap of yours?

I think the average reader here probably also has a driver’s license and knows perfectly well what a typical intersection with a "no left turn" sign looks like. I think they also understand that most drivers don't have extreme tunnel vision and are capable of seeing an entire intersection and not just one sign at the intersection.

You will probably get along just fine in most situations. But in a dangerous situation, where you don't have time to mull it over, even for a second or two, your lack of ability will pose a threat.

Exactly what would that “dangerous situation” be?

[Zep]

Anecdotal evidence, I'm afraid. If you have problems differentiating between left and right, then you will have problems driving safely. Such a fundamental skill is an absolute necessity.

You will probably get along just fine in most situations. But in a dangerous situation, where you don't have time to mull it over, even for a second or two, your lack of ability will pose a threat.

The concept of "left" and "right" is so fundamental that we often forget just how important they are. We should never dismiss the problems involved with not being fully aware, at any time, at any given moment.AGAIN, either I have failed to convey the information correctly, or you have failed to grasp it.

I do NOT have problems differentiating left and right as actual directions or as concepts of directions. I DO have issues accurately and rapidly equating the WORDS "left" and "right" with those directions and/or concepts. That does NOT mean I take minutes to make the connection, just that my reaction times and accuracy would put me consistently below average.

If you direct me without using those actual words but by some other method (preferably pictorially, e.g. pointing) then my reaction times will probably be much better and more accurate than most people's. Really.

Tell you what - let's run a n=1 trial at TAM. I drive, you direct, use both methods, get some idea of timing and accuracy. Make a scientific contribution. Deal? (I suggest in a BIG EMPTY parking lot! ;))

[Chaos]

Better yet, let´s have an n=3 sample of Zep, Geni and Shanek. How long have they been driving, how many accidents have they caused, how many people have they killed and injured, how much property damage have they caused.

Then let´s take an n=3 control group of Claus... myself... and, say... Mycroft. Same questions.

Let´s start with my own data:
Not dyslexic, driving for 9 years now, 1 accident, no dead or injured people, ~$7,500 damage


Spit it out, gentlemen!

[Zep]

Heh! Fair enough!

Actually, I wonder if jj would like to be involved...!

Me: Slightly dyslexic, driving for 33 years now, at least 1.5 million kilometers clocked up at the wheel(!), 2 serious accidents only, injured myself very slightly in one, no deaths, about US$5000 total damage (estimated).

[delphi_ote]

Maybe we should keep in mind that some very simple things are going to skew these statistics in a big way. For a start, you guys all live in different countries with different population densities, traffic laws, number of drivers, etc.

Also, maybe you should note who was at fault in the accidents. To add to the sample in case others don't, I'm not dyslexic. I've caused two accidents for a total of maybe 2k damage. I've been driving for about 10 years now.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Another problem I've noticed with my dyslexic son is that of learning abstract concepts. I don't mean reading about them; he can read that sort of material just as well as any other. It's the retention of the definitions and attributes of the concepts. A couple of examples:

He has trouble describing the difference between communism and capitalism, even though we have reviewed it many times.

He had trouble on a biology test about the components of the cell. In fairness, they introduced about a dozen of the major cell components all at once (e.g., cell membrane, nucleus, ribosome, vacuole, mitochondrion).

I can't get a grip on whether this is just a memorization problem, or something more interesting about abstract concepts. I know he has memorization issues; he didn't manage to memorize his multiplication facts after three years of trying. On the other hand, he has no trouble remembering, for example, where every object in the house is.

Has anyone else noticed this?

~~ Paul

[Chaos]

I caused my accident, too. Darkness, wet asphalt, lack of experience, and minimally reckless driving. And it was Friday, 13th, too :D


Sure things can skew this survey, but I guess if we can get one or more dyslexic and non-dyslexic each from every broad region, this should cancel itself out more or less.

Another thought I´ve had since posting my challenge is to see if insurance companies charge any extra premium for motor insurance from dyslexics - if dyslexics are notably worse drivers, motor insurances would be among the first to notice that.

[Mycroft]

Better yet, let´s have an n=3 sample of Zep, Geni and Shanek. How long have they been driving, how many accidents have they caused, how many people have they killed and injured, how much property damage have they caused.

Then let´s take an n=3 control group of Claus... myself... and, say... Mycroft. Same questions.

Let´s start with my own data:
Not dyslexic, driving for 9 years now, 1 accident, no dead or injured people, ~$7,500 damage


Spit it out, gentlemen!

No, actually, I would belong in the first group. I'm not dyslexic, but I also have to think about it before I know left from right.

Driving for 22 years, 1 accident (within a month of my first getting a license) <$1500 damage.

[kittynh]

and when you take your driver test in NH you get an eye exam. Now if you are dyslexic, you might have trouble reading the letters in order! That would rule out really severe dyslexics.

I remember when I lived in Florida you didn't have to speak English. You could get your test in Spainish, or whatever. You only had to identify a certain number of road signs. Since these were very simple road signs (like RR crossing) I couldn't imagine why they even let you get ONE wrong (you could miss 3!). But then again Florida keeps giving my husbands great grandmother a drivers license. She's in her 90s and she still only has to take a simple eye test. The family finally took away her keys....

[CFLarsen]

Another problem I've noticed with my dyslexic son is that of learning abstract concepts. I don't mean reading about them; he can read that sort of material just as well as any other. It's the retention of the definitions and attributes of the concepts. A couple of examples:

He has trouble describing the difference between communism and capitalism, even though we have reviewed it many times.

He had trouble on a biology test about the components of the cell. In fairness, they introduced about a dozen of the major cell components all at once (e.g., cell membrane, nucleus, ribosome, vacuole, mitochondrion).

I can't get a grip on whether this is just a memorization problem, or something more interesting about abstract concepts. I know he has memorization issues; he didn't manage to memorize his multiplication facts after three years of trying. On the other hand, he has no trouble remembering, for example, where every object in the house is.

Has anyone else noticed this?

~~ Paul

Difficulty in grasping the concept of concepts?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I don't think so, Claus. He can grasp math concepts fairly well.

~~ Paul

[Zep]

Yes! Me!

I can remember accurate "maps" of places in my head for years, after being there only once. Even in the USA! And I can navigate over most of Sydney (actually, Australia) without using a directory. And yet I still cannot accurately remember the names of the few streets in our little suburb... :blush:

Another problem I've noticed with my dyslexic son is that of learning abstract concepts. I don't mean reading about them; he can read that sort of material just as well as any other. It's the retention of the definitions and attributes of the concepts. A couple of examples:

He has trouble describing the difference between communism and capitalism, even though we have reviewed it many times.

He had trouble on a biology test about the components of the cell. In fairness, they introduced about a dozen of the major cell components all at once (e.g., cell membrane, nucleus, ribosome, vacuole, mitochondrion).

I can't get a grip on whether this is just a memorization problem, or something more interesting about abstract concepts. I know he has memorization issues; he didn't manage to memorize his multiplication facts after three years of trying. On the other hand, he has no trouble remembering, for example, where every object in the house is.

Has anyone else noticed this?

~~ Paul

[CFLarsen]

I don't think so, Claus. He can grasp math concepts fairly well.

~~ Paul

You have weird offspring.

Still, it proves Evolution.... buwahahahaaa.....

[CFLarsen]

And I can navigate over most of Sydney (actually, Australia) without using a directory. And yet I still cannot accurately remember the names of the few streets in our little suburb... :blush:

Yeah, you said it: "Few streets".

Navigating through one-horse "Walkabout Creek" towns ain't impressive, mate... :)

[Zep]

Yeah, you said it: "Few streets".

Navigating through one-horse "Walkabout Creek" towns ain't impressive, mate... :)What, you mean places like Copenhagen, our newest outpost?? ;)

(No, I'm a suburban boy - and I'm talking about the streets in the one or two blocks around home!)

[CFLarsen]

What, you mean places like Copenhagen, our newest outpost?? ;)

Your newest outpost? Get this straight, CrocBoy: You are a subject of the Danish Crown, not the other way around.

(Isn't that ultimately better than being a subject of Lizzie the Brit?)

(No, I'm a suburban boy - and I'm talking about the streets in the one or two blocks around home!)

You can't find your way home from the local bar? That's not dyslexia.....

[bruto]

On the left-right driving issue, my wife also has trouble with left and right, as well as up and down, at least where language is concerned, but this has nothing to do with an inability to keep to the correct side of the road, nor does she drive upside down. She's never had an accident, either. In her case, it's more an issue of English being a second language than of any identifiable dyslexia, and though she "lost her accent" many years ago, she still gets directions mixed up.

Anyway, I can say that the danger of a person who gets directions mixed up is not particularly great when they are driving, but it can be nerve-wracking when they are navigating for another driver. It's taken a lot of practice for us when traveling, and a sense of humor helps. "Do you mean the right righ, or the other one?" "That way!" (pointing in the pitch dark...)

[kittynh]

the English as a second language is interesting. My sister in law has been in Canada since she was 11. Her English is perfect, or at least she drives fine and does complex engineering/design work in English.

But when she was telling me about her new house she got "stuck". She was telling her house had a certain number of ..."What do you call it, I know the name for it in 3 languages...you know it's a box"

(I'm still clueless)

"A box in a room"

(clueless)

"A box in a room you put your stuff in".

AHA! A closet!

[shanek]

Heh...same old Claus, not thinking the rules of skepticism apply to him. Guess some people just never change.

Better yet, let´s have an n=3 sample of Zep, Geni and Shanek. How long have they been driving, how many accidents have they caused, how many people have they killed and injured, how much property damage have they caused.

23 years including learning/permit years before getting my actual license, no accidents caused by me (2 caused by other drivers), no deaths, no injuries, total property damage a $20 mailbox plus my labor to put it back up. If we're including one's own property, then I also whacked off my passenger side-view mirror once; no cost to fix other than my own labor.

[Chaos]

Heh...same old Claus, not thinking the rules of skepticism apply to him. Guess some people just never change.



23 years including learning/permit years before getting my actual license, no accidents caused by me (2 caused by other drivers), no deaths, no injuries, total property damage a $20 mailbox plus my labor to put it back up. If we're including one's own property, then I also whacked off my passenger side-view mirror once; no cost to fix other than my own labor.

I left out the trivial stuff on purpose. I mean, I´ve done $7500 of damage, so some scratches on the front bumber aren´t going to be any big deal in addition to that.

[BeholdTheTruth]

Check out the book, "Smart, But Feeling Dumb", by Dr. Harold Levinson -- who for years has been successfully treating dyslexia with the use of motion-sickness medications.

It works: I had a failing, disruptive grade schooler, who right before going into junior high school went to Dr. Levinson for evaluation and get a prescription for two kinds of motion sickness pills. The result: my son got into Drew University and graduated with a B+ average!

[Zep]

Your newest outpost? Get this straight, CrocBoy: You are a subject of the Danish Crown, not the other way around.

(Isn't that ultimately better than being a subject of Lizzie the Brit?)I'm surprised you of all people continue to delude yourself so. Who has the bigger population, the bigger area, the bigger...well, you know. Actually, I'm one of those weirdo "republicans", who sees no reason why an Australian cannot be our head of state. Not some grand dame, gracious though she may be, from another country on the other side of the planet.



You can't find your way home from the local bar? That's not dyslexia.....There isn't one here. Maybe a local bottle shop, but that's about it. I have to go into Parramatta to find a pub...


Hey, remember I said I would try to find that article on Dyslexia? Well, I found it: Dyslexia, Sally E. Shaywitz, Scientific American November 1996. Preview online (http://www.sciamdigital.com/browse.cfm?sequencenameCHAR=item2&methodnameCHAR=resource_getitembrowse&interfacenameCHAR=browse.cfm&ISSUEID_CHAR=F9A716A8-A207-4A1C-BCC3-615B31CE1C3&ARTICLEID_CHAR=60721929-1098-49E5-999C-5C691DDA7BF&sc=I100322)

Very interesting read, that one.

[jj]

Better yet, let´s have an n=3 sample of Zep, Geni and Shanek. How long have they been driving, how many accidents have they caused, how many people have they killed and injured, how much property damage have they caused.

Then let´s take an n=3 control group of Claus... myself... and, say... Mycroft. Same questions.

Let´s start with my own data:
Not dyslexic, driving for 9 years now, 1 accident, no dead or injured people, ~$7,500 damage


Spit it out, gentlemen!

Dyslexic (to say the least)

Driving for, um, 35 years. Lots of highway, commuting, mountain, city, expressway, you-name-it driving. Put at least 100K miles on 5 cars in succession.

6 accidents. None attributable to me. Injuries, mild in one case only. Cost: 2 totalled cars, both older. Several repairs to cars.

N.B. In 4 of those 6 accidents, the car I was operating was not moving, and was, rather, stopped properly at a light/stop sign or parked. One of them was thanks to somebody entering a parking lot through the exit. In one of them, a drunk driver crashed a light and drove in front of me when I had a green light. In the other one, a very new driver left-turned through a red left turn light in front of me in a high-speed intersection.

I presume the "tree fell on car during storm" and "garage door mechanism broke" events do not count as automobile accidents? (Tree fell on car is obvious, the dent is still in the trunk of the targetmobile, and the garage door broke a spring and bashed up the top of the same car while I was backing out of the garage.)

The targetmobile has been hit 3 times while stopped, NOT COUNTING the tree and the garage door. There is a dent or a ding in every body panel (counting each of the 4 doors as a separate panel), but nothing serious. If I was superstitious I'd say it had bad karma. As it is, I think people just don't notice dark green cars sitting there perfectly obviously with lights, stop lights, etc, on, engine running, etc...

[jj]

I can't get a grip on whether this is just a memorization problem, or something more interesting about abstract concepts. I know he has memorization issues; he didn't manage to memorize his multiplication facts after three years of trying. On the other hand, he has no trouble remembering, for example, where every object in the house is.


If it's like me, or my one offspring, it's simply a question of associating the right word with the right concept. Lead into the concept somehow and you may get the whole answer spilled at you.

It could, of course, be different. I can do multiplication, but I do it via various algebraic/arithmetic exploits wherein I can FIGURE OUT the answer, rather than "remember" it.

You might try teaching him to remember things by function, rather than name-tag, and to work on attaching the name tag to things via their function or characteristics.

Then again, he could have some different difficulty. I certainly can't tell from here, and I'm not an expert in anyone's issues with this beyond my own and my offspring's.

[jj]

Yes! Me!

I can remember accurate "maps" of places in my head for years, after being there only once. Even in the USA! And I can navigate over most of Sydney (actually, Australia) without using a directory. And yet I still cannot accurately remember the names of the few streets in our little suburb... :blush:


I so understand, dude, I so understand.

I can draw you a map to get from here to there, no problem. Don't ask me the street names, don't ask me the left/right at each turn, but follow the arrows and the line and you'll get there, pronto and efficiently.

[Zep]

If it's like me, or my one offspring, it's simply a question of associating the right word with the right concept. Lead into the concept somehow and you may get the whole answer spilled at you.

It could, of course, be different. I can do multiplication, but I do it via various algebraic/arithmetic exploits wherein I can FIGURE OUT the answer, rather than "remember" it.

You might try teaching him to remember things by function, rather than name-tag, and to work on attaching the name tag to things via their function or characteristics.

Then again, he could have some different difficulty. I certainly can't tell from here, and I'm not an expert in anyone's issues with this beyond my own and my offspring's.
jj, see the Scientific American article I referenced for Claus? Can I recommend that you go to a library and find that issue, and photocopy the article. It has a very good explanation about the issue of word versus visual recognition for dyslexics - it's to do with a "Phonological model of dyslexia" hypothesis. And when was reading it, I found myself going "Yeah! That's SO me!" :)

[Jekyll]

Kind of...the funny thing is that she recently tested at 98% comprehension but only read 2 out of every 3 words on the test. No clue how she does it!


I do that, but very fast. I remember that when I had to read out loud (something I still hate doing) I'd replace all the missing words with synonyms. It caused huge problems when I had to take a typing test a few years back, I couldn't tell when I'd replaced a word with its synonym.

I think the way I just grab incomplete patterns and fill them rather than reading the letters is responsible for my poor spelling* as well, it's probably done wonders for my abstract reasoning though.

I am enjoying this thread, transposing left and right, reversing letters and numbers, placing errors etc. .

I did all that, and used to confuse yes and no when I talked, although I never had any problems with reading comprehension or maths.
*which has recently improved, over the last year, due to me posting on the internet.

[jj]

Well, reading only 2/3 words but knowing the words in the middle by meaning is not that surprising. If your brain processes the words into MEANING instead of "spelling", that's what one would expect.

Yes, I do that a lot, too. Hence why I almost always say "quote paraphrased, meaning retained" when I quote anything from memory.

[geni]

Better yet, let´s have an n=3 sample of Zep, Geni and Shanek. How long have they been driving, how many accidents have they caused, how many people have they killed and injured, how much property damage have they caused.

Then let´s take an n=3 control group of Claus... myself... and, say... Mycroft. Same questions.

Let´s start with my own data:
Not dyslexic, driving for 9 years now, 1 accident, no dead or injured people, ~$7,500 damage


Spit it out, gentlemen!

driving 3 years

0 accidents, no dead or injured people, 0 damage

But then I don't drive much and when I do I tend to stick to major roads.

[ceptimus]

I have trouble with the words left and right too. I tend to associate the word 'left' with the side of the road I drive on (I'm in the UK) so I get on okay at home, but when driving abroad I still drive safely but I give and take mirror-image directions if I don't pause and think it through carefully.

On the other hand, I think I acclimatise to driving on the wrong side much better than most people (especially if I'm on my motorbike as the vehicle itself is less 'handed' than a car). Friends and colleagues have told me that they find road junctions, and especially roundabouts, to 'feel peculiar' when they're driving abroad, but to me there is no difference.

I've only had one accident that was my fault in all my years of motoring, and that didn't involve any other vehicles: I was just driving too fast on a slippy road, skidded into a ditch and somersaulted the car. This had nothing to do with any left/right confusion.

I can read text upside down, sideways, mirror imaged, or upside down and mirror imaged, etc., almost as fast as I read regular text - though I've never found this to be a particularly useful skill.

I think the 'no left turn' sign in words is stupid, and is more dangerous for people who can't read, or for whom English is not their first language than it is for people like me who sometimes muddle the words 'left' and 'right'.

http://81.174.131.162/qb.php?s=3&m&p=r&t=I guess that many of you will have trouble reading this, and may even resort to using a mirror to view it. But it's a reasonable bet that Zep, jj and geni and Shanek will read it much faster than most of you can. It's not a particularly useful skill usually though it could be to someone in the print industry, like Paul. It probably reveals something deep about the way our brains are wired up, and how we recognise and process images and text.
:teacher:

[Kopji]

and some of us will just click the "quote" button to read it.

[Darat]

It's not a very legible font whichever way you try and read it!

[jj]

Interestingly, my reversal is only on output, I have quite some trouble reading mirror script, although I can generate it trivially by hand.

[Soapy Sam]

"I am fully aware of the shortcomings of directional clues that consist of only words, and not pictograms. The latter are far more efficient than the written words.

I have never understood the penchant for writing "WALK" and "STOP" at a crosswalk. Use icons, dimwits.... CFL"


Claus, that statement alone tells me that your brain and mine model the world rather differently. I find most icon type signs so useless, that I have walked into womens' toilets, run the wrong software, parked in the wrong place, boiled shirts which should have been dry cleaned, etc., for most of my life. Maybe it's the good readers who are a danger in traffic.
I can READ, for Ed's sake! I stopped using picture books when I was four!
(I can't type, but that's a different issue).

Yes, I can use stupid hyeroglyphic signs if I have to - in Arabic or Asian countries for instance, where I can't read the script, but I have to think about them. I'm picture blind, whatever the heck that's called. I don't know what I look like till I look in the mirror - and I forget again about two minutes later, unless I actually describe myself in words. I don't bother with an avatar, because I truly can't understand why anyone would. I would probably not recognise it.
On the other hand, I'm an excellent map reader, because I studied the subject till I was.

I learned to read so young I don't really recall doing it. I have memories, but I think they are from stories I was told much later. My first day in school, the teacher gave out reading books. She then went round the class several times doling out jotters, pencils etc. About orbit five, I gave her the reading book back, having finished it.
Whether my brain was hard wired better to cope with text than pictures, or whether it was trained that way by my early learning, I don't know. I do know I ended up unable to visualise and with no love of diagrams and pictures.
I wonder if people who happen to acquire pictorial or spatial ability early,- the artists and sportsmen- simply bias their brains that way and are thereafter considered dyslexic because they have selected a different neural bias?

[kittynh]

I"m not sure. I know Yale, which is right now the leader in dyslexic studies, has found a very strong family factor. There just simply isn't a single type of "Dyslexic". Some can do numbers ok, some words better than numbers...but oddly the same "type" of dyslexia seems to run in families.

[CFLarsen]

Claus, that statement alone tells me that your brain and mine model the world rather differently.

It's not how my brain models the world. I'm speaking from a general POV.

I find most icon type signs so useless, that I have walked into womens' toilets

I've done that, too. Hopefully, from different reasons... ;)

run the wrong software

I can't tell you. It is still a state secret.

parked in the wrong place

Never. But I have had my moments.

boiled shirts which should have been dry cleaned, etc.

Do not wash blue socks with white ones.

Maybe it's the good readers who are a danger in traffic.

No, it's not that. It's all about recognizing signs. Be they pictograms or words.

I can READ, for Ed's sake! I stopped using picture books when I was four!

I started reading before that.

(I can't type, but that's a different issue).

Use your tail. It helps me tremendously.

Yes, I can use stupid hyeroglyphic signs if I have to - in Arabic or Asian countries for instance, where I can't read the script, but I have to think about them. I'm picture blind, whatever the heck that's called.

No, you're not. Because if you were, you wouldn't be able to either read or write.

I don't know what I look like till I look in the mirror

I have my name pasted on the bathroom mirror. Just so I know who the face is, staring at me each morning....

and I forget again about two minutes later, unless I actually describe myself in words. I don't bother with an avatar, because I truly can't understand why anyone would.

Advertising, baby! :)

I would probably not recognise it.

Sure, you can. Don't you recognize the SkepticReport logo?

On the other hand, I'm an excellent map reader, because I studied the subject till I was.

In which case, you are certainly not "picture blind".

I learned to read so young I don't really recall doing it.

Me too.

I have memories, but I think they are from stories I was told much later. My first day in school, the teacher gave out reading books. She then went round the class several times doling out jotters, pencils etc. About orbit five, I gave her the reading book back, having finished it.

At 5 (Danish kids start school in the year they are 7), I took a sort of ability test, to see if I qualified for pre-school. It was all about pictures. I kept thinking "When do people start teaching me something? I already know how to read. Stupidos." I never got over that.

Whether my brain was hard wired better to cope with text than pictures, or whether it was trained that way by my early learning, I don't know. I do know I ended up unable to visualise and with no love of diagrams and pictures.

Don't tell me you don't surf for porn.

I wonder if people who happen to acquire pictorial or spatial ability early,- the artists and sportsmen- simply bias their brains that way and are thereafter considered dyslexic because they have selected a different neural bias?

I doubt that. The earliest imprinting occurs when we learn how to recognize our mother's face. It is so important that if we don't learn it, we will probably die.

[CFLarsen]

I"m not sure. I know Yale, which is right now the leader in dyslexic studies, has found a very strong family factor. There just simply isn't a single type of "Dyslexic". Some can do numbers ok, some words better than numbers...but oddly the same "type" of dyslexia seems to run in families.

[Swedish accent ON]

I vent to Yale, too.

I yust got out yesterday.

[Swedish accent OFF]

[bruto]

"I am fully aware of the shortcomings of directional clues that consist of only words, and not pictograms. The latter are far more efficient than the written words.

I have never understood the penchant for writing "WALK" and "STOP" at a crosswalk. Use icons, dimwits.... CFL"


Claus, that statement alone tells me that your brain and mine model the world rather differently. I find most icon type signs so useless, that I have walked into womens' toilets, run the wrong software, parked in the wrong place, boiled shirts which should have been dry cleaned, etc., for most of my life. Maybe it's the good readers who are a danger in traffic.
I can READ, for Ed's sake! I stopped using picture books when I was four!
(I can't type, but that's a different issue).

Yes, I can use stupid hyeroglyphic signs if I have to - in Arabic or Asian countries for instance, where I can't read the script, but I have to think about them. I'm picture blind, whatever the heck that's called. I don't know what I look like till I look in the mirror - and I forget again about two minutes later, unless I actually describe myself in words. I don't bother with an avatar, because I truly can't understand why anyone would. I would probably not recognise it.
On the other hand, I'm an excellent map reader, because I studied the subject till I was.

I learned to read so young I don't really recall doing it. I have memories, but I think they are from stories I was told much later. My first day in school, the teacher gave out reading books. She then went round the class several times doling out jotters, pencils etc. About orbit five, I gave her the reading book back, having finished it.
Whether my brain was hard wired better to cope with text than pictures, or whether it was trained that way by my early learning, I don't know. I do know I ended up unable to visualise and with no love of diagrams and pictures.
I wonder if people who happen to acquire pictorial or spatial ability early,- the artists and sportsmen- simply bias their brains that way and are thereafter considered dyslexic because they have selected a different neural bias?


I'm with Soapy on this one, though I'm not quite so picutre blind. I think it's a matter of how we're wired, more than anything else. I can be very visual in some ways, but icons always seem horribly ambiguous. I want text. If there were a version of DOS that ran Windows programs from the command line, I'd use it. I have a similar problem with languages. I can't confidently say a word until I know how it is spelled.

I have a friend who is at least borderline dyslexic. He can't spell well, reads slowly and is very visual. We are both mechanical tinkerers, and have an almost insurmountable barrier in communication, because he can visualize entire structures in his head but when he describes them they make no sense to me until I have the terminology in terms of up, down, left, right, in and out . We go on and on, trying to communicate, and usually it ends with my saying something like, "Oh, you mean the frammis turns counterclockwise at right angles from the gazookus! Now I get it."

[kittynh]

sounds a bit like Temple Grandin, which may mean he has some autism or ASpergers syndrome...

a lot of people are labelled "dyslexic" when they have other types of LD.

Oh, and no matter how your brain works, reading Temple Grandins book, "Seeing in Pictures" is well worth your time (or getting it on books on tape)

[Sushi]

Wow, I thought I was the only one who had trouble remembering "right/left".

It is quite embarrassing to be told to raise your right hand and raise your left. I've gotten a lot better about it, though... I thought in terms of the left/right shoulder buttons on the Super Nintendo controller and that seemed to make my retrieval from memory a -lot- faster.

I think when under a lot of stress I can't remember my left and right, though.

I don't have any problems driving.

[Kaylee]

Thought this might be of interest.

Just picked up a murder mystery (Earth Colors by Sarah Andrews) at the library the other day. The book was OK, but what was really interesting was finding out that the author was also a geologist, artist and a licensed pilot -- and has dyslexia. In her author's note to the book, here's what she had to say:

I was born with the talent for four dimensional thinking (a geologist thinks in the three-dimensions of space and projects it forwards and backwards through time. My dyslexia, or trouble decoding linear/sequential text, is on the flip side of being able to take in discontinuous -- often ambiguous -- data in random order and build space-time models from it. Not a bad trade if you ask me).

Her web site is www.sarahandrews.net (http://www.sarahandrews.net)

[farrisjs]

My daughter and I both have mild dyslexia but we are both good a 3d thinking.

The only problems I have encountered is in my writing and spelling especially on the threads the say god does not exist. I know he exist, I walk him twice a day and feed him every night.

[kittynh]

My daughter and I both have mild dyslexia but we are both good a 3d thinking.

The only problems I have encountered is in my writing and spelling especially on the threads the say god does not exist. I know he exist, I walk him twice a day and feed him every night.


I'm sorry! I'm going to steal that line!

My atheist dyslexic daughter is so going to LOVE it!

Hey, you are new here, but you are GOOD!

[farrisjs]

Just started last week.

Sorry I took your line.

[kittynh]

so you are totally coming to TAM next year...bring your daughter!

[TimmyBerry]

On the left-right driving issue, my wife also has trouble with left and right, as well as up and down, at least where language is concerned, but this has nothing to do with an inability to keep to the correct side of the road, nor does she drive upside down. She's never had an accident, either. In her case, it's more an issue of English being a second language than of any identifiable dyslexia, and though she "lost her accent" many years ago, she still gets directions mixed up.


Being an English-as-second-language person myself, I can relate to that. (Also happends with lower case d's and b's ("bird" is a useful word in this case) and geographical directions.) It's something about getting the word out. I can point it out, but not call on it immidiately.

[ferd burfle]

The only problems I have encountered is in my writing and spelling especially on the threads the say god does not exist. I know he exist, I walk him twice a day and feed him every night.

OK, so they say you shouldn't attempt humor in a new culture and I'm thinking that's probably true of a new poster as well. But I can't help it:

What do you get with someone who's an insomniac, agnostic and dyslexic?

A person who lays awake at night, wondering if there really is a Dog!

Thanks, especially kitty, for a fascinating thread. And LA's description of her mom turning books upside down caused momentary but very real waterworks.

Ferd

[Soapy Sam]

"Sure, you can. Don't you recognize the SkepticReport logo?"- CFLarsen.

This is actually quite funny. I read this response, and had not the slightest idea what Claus meant.
Now ferd has bumped the thread. I'm on a new pc at work , on which I have not yet bothered to turn avatars off, as I generally do.

I still didn't know what he meant, until I actually looked at the triangle Avatar he uses, which does indeed say "Skeptic Report" on it.

So, that would be a "no!"

[CFLarsen]

"Sure, you can. Don't you recognize the SkepticReport logo?"- CFLarsen.

This is actually quite funny. I read this response, and had not the slightest idea what Claus meant.
Now ferd has bumped the thread. I'm on a new pc at work , on which I have not yet bothered to turn avatars off, as I generally do.

I still didn't know what he meant, until I actually looked at the triangle Avatar he uses, which does indeed say "Skeptic Report" on it.

So, that would be a "no!"

The logo doesn't have "SkepticReport" in it. But...I can't say any more right now. You just wait... ;)

[LostAngeles]

OK, so they say you shouldn't attempt humor in a new culture and I'm thinking that's probably true of a new poster as well. But I can't help it:

What do you get with someone who's an insomniac, agnostic and dyslexic?

A person who lays awake at night, wondering if there really is a Dog!

Thanks, especially kitty, for a fascinating thread. And LA's description of her mom turning books upside down caused momentary but very real waterworks.

Ferd

Oh hun, don't cry over that. It's a great party and tutoring trick. Most of the time, if I'm stuck across the table from my student, I often don't have to make them turn their book around so I can read the relevant passage. :D

[Zep]

Yep, can do that too.

Claus, I had a photocopy of that Scientific American article on Dyslexia in my suitcase at TAM...and I forgot to give it to you! Guess all the strangling distracted me...

PM me a snailmail address if you seriously want it.

[CFLarsen]

Yep, can do that too.

Claus, I had a photocopy of that Scientific American article on Dyslexia in my suitcase at TAM...and I forgot to give it to you! Guess all the strangling distracted me...

Typical. Focusing on violence instead of evidence. Tsk, tsk.

PM me a snailmail address if you seriously want it.

Don't you have scanners downundah?

[Zep]

Typical. Focusing on violence instead of evidence. Tsk, tsk.Clear and indisputable evidence of violence. Two birds, one stone? ;)
Don't you have scanners downundah?Downundah what? :confused:

Mine's currently in a state of flux. I.e. it's fluxing broken. But I can afford 50 cents to send you a letter.

[ChristineR]

I never had any trouble reading, but I always assumed everybody could read upside down as well as right-side up.

[Dcdrac]

I have a daughter with severe dyslexia. We are talking thousands of hours of tutoring since she was quite young, and we are thrilled she can "kind of" read enough to barely function in the real world. Forget school, books on tape and an intensive LD program (along with even more expensive private tutoring) will get her through that AND through college.

I still get the "You didn't talk to her enough as a baby...."

or

"What did you feed her when she was young? Did you let her have sugar?"

or

"You should have read her books." (I DID!)

She has been down to Yale where important work is being done. There is now a gene that has been identified. I've seen the brain scans of my daughter that SHOW her brain works differently when attempting to read. So I'm familiar with the fact that she just IS this way.

I've also learned over the years that there is nothing wrong with her being this way. The differences in how her brain works may result in trouble reading and writing. But it has so many benefits also. She is a very creative thinker, and has a sense of empathy that I would not trade for making her "like everyone else". We need people with dyslexia. Walt Disney, Churchill, there are so many that has added so much to our lives, that I don't let her or myself think of this as a "problem" anymore. It's a pain, she STILL has to learn to read and write, because that is the way life it. But it is also a good thing.

here is the link to the latest "news". But the important part for me is at the end.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20051028/hl_hsn/researchersmayhavediscovereddyslexiagene

"Whether or not these findings translate into concrete gains for people with dyslexia, the research sends "a very important message to educators, parents and children, which is that you're not dumb. This isn't your fault. You're not a bad parent," Gruen said. "This is a transmitted difference in our gene that makes one person learn differently than another. That's all it is."


I am dyslexic too, I have a BSc Hons and a Masters degree, my hand writing look like a five year olds.

Do you know about the work of John Stein and Tony Monaco, they think they have identified the chromosome which may give a predispotion to dyslexia, chromsome number 6.


http://www.physiol.ox.ac.uk/~jfs/

http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_WTD002846.html

I wish you and your child all hte best and remember:

Never give up Never surrender

Dyslexia has made my life tougher than most peoples, but it has also made me tougher than mpst people.

[Dcdrac]

I can also read upside down very easily

[CFLarsen]

I can also read upside down very easily
......doesn't the blood rush to your head?

[Dcdrac]

......doesn't the blood rush to your head?

Nah my head stays upright its my eyes that swivel upside down and the yee cells rotate.........................