Israeli/Palestinian future

[DrBenway]

We spend a lot of time, it seems, debating whether the Israelis or the Palestinians, are more at fault for the mess in the Middle East.

I'm wondering, could we try to have a debate more focused upon the future than the past?

What I mean is, could we look at various options for the future of Israel/Palestine, and then determine which option is the most appealing?

To do this, we need a summary of the US proposed "roadmap," for one. We'd need a summary of the Right-wing Israeli vision, the PLO vision, maybe the Hamas vision, or anyone else's relevant vision.

Anyone interested in summarizing one of these points of view, for purposes of discussion?

[a_unique_person]

Sharon will get what he wants.

Enclosed, landless communities of Palestinians living in conditions that remarkably resemble ghettoes. Over time, these will wither and die.

Terrorism will continue, as it did in Northern Ireland, for perhaps a period of another 100 years.

[Dancing David]

I tried a similar thread and was told that Coca Cola was the answer. My vision um, force both sides to stop fighting, um cut off the money to Israel, jail the PLO and The Israeli army for war crimes, um....

I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony...

Peace
dancing david

[Cleopatra]

I don't know how to start this, there are so many things I want to say.

Ok. Let me start from this.

I am desperately pessimistic about the future. Right now, I can't see a way to get out of the tunnel.

Especially the negotiations between Arafat and Mazen showed clearely to everybody that peace is not what the other side needs most.

Don't take me wrong! I am not suggesting that Israelis are innocent but Israelis have a better life, they have many things to loose with this situation.Palestinians on the other hand live in such bad conditions that they have nothing more to loose and this makes them very "dangerous".

Usually, in History, something really dramatic happens, and people weak-up from the hibernation and see that it's time to do something.

In my opinion this something hasn't happened in Middle East yet.

Also I am persuaded that USA and Europe especially the former have a vital role to play.

USA must stop funding the establishment of new settlements ( don't tell me that it doesn't... it does) and Europe must stop flirting and legitimize Yasser Arafat.

Also, look at Ariel Sharon,he has an unlimited access to the US President. Why? Who is he? God?

I read here people claiming that Israel has never turned its back to the States. For Christ Sake we are totally dependant on the States, who would be crazy enough to do such a thing! We are not your allies YOU are ours.

So, in order to recap. Peace needs will. And I don't see Will around...

[Cleopatra]

I composed the message above before reading the news today.

Well, those people are unable to form a government but they are perfectly able to kill other people.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1051150696731

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I composed the message above before reading the news today.

Well, those people are unable to form a government but they are perfectly able to kill other people.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1051150696731

As I predicted, this will be going on for a long time.

[Tony]

Why doesn’t Israel declare all out war and force the Palestinians to either fight to the death or unconditionally surrender?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Tony
Why doesn’t Israel declare all out war and force the Palestinians to either fight to the death or unconditionally surrender?

Does the word "massacre" come to mind?

[Tony]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Does the word "massacre" come to mind?

That’s what I think every time a religious fanatic explodes himself in an Israeli market.


But really, why doesnt Israel declare war on the palestinians?Peace can not be achieved without victory.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Tony


That’s what I think every time a religious fanatic explodes himself in an Israeli market.


But really, why doesnt Israel declare war on the palestinians?Peace can not be achieved without victory.

It would be a hollow victory. The victims of the Holocaust instigating their own.

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by Tony


That’s what I think every time a religious fanatic explodes himself in an Israeli market.


But really, why doesnt Israel declare war on the palestinians?Peace can not be achieved without victory.

What outcome of the war would be helpful?

Extinction of all Palestinians? That would solve it...

What could a war gain the Israelis, really? They already have control over all palestinian areas, they roll in their tanks or close borders at will. And a war will certainly not stop those suicide bombers.

Zee

[Tony]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


It would be a hollow victory. The victims of the Holocaust instigating their own.

You'd like to think that, but it would be completly different. If you remember, the people killed in the holocaust were murdered in work camps. They didnt die in battle. BIG difference.

[Tony]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman




What could a war gain the Israelis, really?


Victory and peace. As it is now, they have neither.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Tony


Victory and peace. As it is now, they have neither.

The world is that simple. You kill enough people, then you have peace.

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by Tony


Victory and peace. As it is now, they have neither.

One of us is not getting it...

Suppose Isreal declares war to Palestine. Answer two questions for me please:

1. What is the first target i.e. what should Isreal be heading for first (like kill Arafat, knock out communications etc.)

2. What is the last target of the war, e.g. when will Israel declare "Victory" (again, when Arafat is dead, all Palestinians are dead or what) ?

Zee

[Mel]

Originally posted by Tony


That’s what I think every time a religious fanatic explodes himself in an Israeli market.


But really, why doesnt Israel declare war on the palestinians?Peace can not be achieved without victory.

That might not be such a bad idea. As things stand now, the Palestinians are as much victims of corrupt leadership. I see NO END to their misery UNTIL they are forced to denounce the terrorism that is carried out for the 'alleged' cause of improving their lives and looking to an educated and reasonable leadership.

The Palestinians are being used as scapegoats by too many groups with agendas that have no personal stake in the outcome of this endless 'game.' Arafat does NOT want peace..... he'd lose his sense of power in the Arab world. Without war, what IS Arafat?

[Dancing David]

So it comes to the bitterness, focus on the future. Both sides are wrong, both sides have a moral feeling about what they are doing. Yes it is horrible when a person blows up other people, the worst nightmare of any human being. So what is morally superior about bulldozing house to build a wall?

One of the problem stopping any war is to get both sides to stop fighting, Cleo had made some good points.

Israel is already using superior force to dominate thier turf, no sucsess, the PLO uses superior terror to fight , both sides are wrong.

Children are suffering on both sides, we need to get the adults to back off of thier stuff and hope that things workk out. As it stands now there is just going to be a bunch of people who hate each other and neither side will win.

I would think that all the nations of the world declaring meta-martial law might work, then there can be curfews for everyone and then they can use violence to stop any one who breaks the peace(sigh I am being rhetorically sarcastic).

Starting a dialouge and getting both sides to see they have more to gain from peace would be a place to start.

Do the Europeans care, I still wonder why they let Bosnia go under?

Peace
dancing David

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Tony


But really, why doesnt Israel declare war on the palestinians?Peace can not be achieved without victory.

Usually a State, a country, declares war on another country.

For the moment there is not such a thing as a Palestinian state.Palestinians are under Israeli occupation and those actions have as goal to pressure Israel to withdraw from the territories known as Occupied Territories.

Nasty thought: If Arafat was a real threat, he would be dead by now...

Just a thought...

[renata]

This is just a fantasy. I know it will not happen, and that makes me very sad.

Arafat steps away from power entirely. Abu Mazen repudiates his past convictions and bravely steps forward with a peace plan, in the mold of King Hussein, Rabin, Anwar Sadat and others. He stops PA's financing of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa martyrs brigade. He arrests and jails anyone implicated in violence. He fires everyone who is corrupt in upper levels of government, and confiscates their stolen money, and applies it to education and infrastructure. Israel eases restrictions and allows Palestinian workers back into Israel. Israel pulls their troops from the occupied territories. Economy in Palestinian territories bounces back with influx of money from the west, creating jobs and opportunities for people who were hopeless before. People are now interested more in life and cooperation than death and hate. Israel pulls back from settlements- settlers can now live in peace surrounded by their Palestinian neighbors and do not need protection. Independent state is established. Israel shares high tech jobs with Palestinians, raising standards of living for all. Palestinian refugees are integrated into society in Palestinian territory. Schools, mosques and television programs teach tolerance and coexistance. Jerusalem becomes a shared city of peace, with both peoples sharing their history and religious site. Israel and Palestine become partners in peace, stability and prosperity and are a beacon unto the world. Following their example, the rest of the countries in the Middle East establish democracy, build infrastructure, and bring Muslims their glory days through commerce and peace.


One can dream, can't one?

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by renata
Arafat steps away from power entirely. Abu Mazen repudiates his past convictions and bravely steps forward with a peace plan, in the mold of King Hussein, Rabin, Anwar Sadat and others.
Well, if I could vote, I'd vote for your peace plan, renata. Looks pretty good to me!

Wouldn't it be cool if we could talk to a bunch of Palestinians on this forum about such ideas? Where can we find a few Palestinians with internet access?

[Cleopatra]

Doctor , apart from the bunch of Palestianians, you will have to persuade the majority of Israelis who voted for Sharon and they weren't so fond of the peace plans of the past...

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Tony


You'd like to think that, but it would be completly different. If you remember, the people killed in the holocaust were murdered in work camps. They didnt die in battle. BIG difference.

It would be a massacre. A battle of stones, AK-47s and some explosives against attack helicopters, gun boats, jet fighters, nukes, tanks .....

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by DrBenway

Well, if I could vote, I'd vote for your peace plan, renata. Looks pretty good to me!

Wouldn't it be cool if we could talk to a bunch of Palestinians on this forum about such ideas? Where can we find a few Palestinians with internet access?

What often seems to go wrong with peace plans is that it only takes a few to wreck it for the majority.

One bomber, one new settlement, one more curfew, and it is one again.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Doctor , apart from the bunch of Palestianians, you will have to persuade the majority of Israelis who voted for Sharon and they weren't so fond of the peace plans of the past...

I think that the majority were in favour of peace plans, but a hard core minority on each each side can ruin it for everyone else. Extremist Israelis will even assasinate a democratically elected Prime Minister.

I want to know what my wyfe is going to cook tomorrow.
She doesn't want to tell me.

Sometimes she cooks something I don't like , but she pretends me to eat it , because is "nutritive".

So I was thinking if I shoild eat outside at some restaurant.

A little out of topic? Well , I thought you can tell the future.

Thanks,
S&S