Which is worse

[billydkid]

I find it odd that evangelical Christians reserves their most potent hatred for atheists rather than for believers in other religions. It seems it is worse in their eyes to be a non-believer than to be a believer in false gods. I think the thinking is "well, at least they believe in something". I suspect that even satanists are less repellent to Christers - there is hope for satanists. There is none for atheists.

[ned flandas]

I am a Christian and I find that odd too.

Jesus teaches that we are supposed to love one another. Not a simple task, but one that he expects from Christians to do their best to strive towards.

The Greatest Commandment (Matthew 22)

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

[c4ts]

The entire New Testament is about this profound love we are supposed to have for one another. Perhaps Jesus was asking a bit too much of the evangelicals, who would prefer to create and latch onto exceptions...

[Betenoire]

Yeah, I've sort of started to think in terms of "New Testament Christians" and "Old Testament Christians". The "You're going to burn in hell you dirty queers" types are OTCs. They don't really listen to Christ. They just like the angry God part (it gives them an excuse to hate) and don't want to associate with what they think of as dirty greedy Jews. They totally miss the new covenant of Christ.
NTCs are, I hope, more plentiful, but less vocal. These are the sorts of Christians who express that whole love-your-fellow-man and be-good-stewards-of-creation thing. You know, liberal hippie tree-huggers.
*sigh*

And people ask me why I'm agnostic.

[Ryokan]

The "You're going to burn in hell you dirty queers" types are OTCs.

But.... There was no hell in the OT! ;)

[Betenoire]

Well, they do have to pretend to be Christian in some way.

[Huh-What?]

I don't know.

Perhaps ECs look at Satanists as lost children and a little understanding will bring them back to the flock.

Atheist, on the other hand, just might be right. :)

[HeyLeroy]

I find it odd that evangelical Christians reserves their most potent hatred for atheists rather than for believers in other religions. It seems it is worse in their eyes to be a non-believer than to be a believer in false gods. I think the thinking is "well, at least they believe in something". I suspect that even satanists are less repellent to Christers - there is hope for satanists. There is none for atheists.

Yeah, to be a satanist you have to at least acknowledge the existence of god.

[toddjh]

In some ways it's a manifestation of natural selection in a social context. People of other religions are at least playing the same game as you. They may bat for a different team, but it's still three outs to an inning. Even though there is competition, the social institution of organized religion is protected.

Whereas atheists aren't even in the ball park. Organized religion looks at an atheist and thinks, "That person might steal my niche." Other religions represent competition; atheism represents the possibility of extinction.

Jeremy

[Odin]

I find it odd that evangelical Christians reserves their most potent hatred for atheists rather than for believers in other religions. It seems it is worse in their eyes to be a non-believer than to be a believer in false gods. I think the thinking is "well, at least they believe in something". I suspect that even satanists are less repellent to Christers - there is hope for satanists. There is none for atheists.

I'd say Jack Chick (http://www.chick.com/default.asp) hates Pagans, Catholics and Muslims (probably in that order) more than atheists.

[Francois Tremblay]

Yeah, I've sort of started to think in terms of "New Testament Christians" and "Old Testament Christians". The "You're going to burn in hell you dirty queers" types are OTCs. They don't really listen to Christ.

Another one who's never read the Gospels, eh ?

[1984]

Somewhere in Revelation, from memory, god is explained as preferring people who beleive wholeheartedly in a falsity, or even satan, to those who sit on the fence. Like, er, some skeptics.

[Betenoire]

Another one who's never read the Gospels, eh ?

Actually, I have. And Acts. I just didn't cherry pick the parts that support hate and xenophobia to build my faith around.

[PatKelley]

Wow, Jack now says the entire United States (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1025/1025_01.asp?wpc=1025_01.asp") is going to hell.

Must be because we don't "Honor God."

[joesson]

I remember reading these tracts as a kid. Scared me to death. Who is this guy, really? He appears to be no better that a snake-oil seller. I did read once that he tried to get a job at Marvel or D.C. comics back in the sixties, but they turned him down. Can't say I blame them, look at the artwork: it looks like the sketchings of creepy school kids; you know, the ones who were always picked on and had a hit list...


:beerflag:

[Francois Tremblay]

Actually, I have. And Acts. I just didn't cherry pick the parts that support hate and xenophobia to build my faith around.

No... you're only read the parts your pastor told you to. If you had read all the Gospels, you wouldn't say that hate and xenophobia are exceptions. I forgot who it was who said that anyone who follows the OT is a murderer, and whoever follows the NT is insane.

If you found anything good in the Gospels, tell me so I can balance it against the dozens of horrible ones I already have (most of which I list in my "Handbook of Atheistic Apologetics"). Let it never be said that I don't give racist, frustrated cult leaders a chance.

[Francois Tremblay]

Uh, just to make sure no one's offended, when I say "racist, frustrated cult leader", I don't mean anyone on this board. I mean the fictional Jesus character in the Bible. I wanted to add "mentally ill", but for some reason the board won't let me edit my post again.

[c4ts]

But.... There was no hell in the OT! ;)

They take parts from the NT that suit their OT purposes.

[Belz...]

I find it odd that evangelical Christians reserves their most potent hatred for atheists rather than for believers in other religions. It seems it is worse in their eyes to be a non-believer than to be a believer in false gods. I think the thinking is "well, at least they believe in something". I suspect that even satanists are less repellent to Christers - there is hope for satanists. There is none for atheists.

As I said in another thread, "faith" is paramount to believers. "Science isn't everything" is one of their mottos (when they're not using science for their needs, of course.) People without ANY faith are therefore inferior to those with A faith, whatever it may be.

[Dr Adequate]

I'm not sure it is about hating atheists so much as it is about propaganda. You don't like evolution? Then it's an atheist theory, and God has turned his back on Dover for electing the wrong schoolboard, because by doing so Dover has rejected God. Which would come as a surprise to the electorate.

It's not so much about hating atheists as about tryng to discredit (in the eyes of theists) ideas which are accepted by non-fundie Christians, and which have nothing to do with atheism since they don't involve the non-existence of God in any way.
___________

Hello Ned and welcome to the forums!

[Dr Adequate]

If you found anything good in the Gospels, tell me so I can balance it against the dozens of horrible ones I already have (most of which I list in my "Handbook of Atheistic Apologetics"). Let it never be said that I don't give racist, frustrated cult leaders a chance. :jaw-dropp

Troll. Troll, troll, troll.

Avaunt, trollish one!

[geni]

I find it odd that evangelical Christians reserves their most potent hatred for atheists rather than for believers in other religions. It seems it is worse in their eyes to be a non-believer than to be a believer in false gods. I think the thinking is "well, at least they believe in something". I suspect that even satanists are less repellent to Christers - there is hope for satanists. There is none for atheists.

The catholic church is generaly hated more amoung the more extream groups.

Its a numbers game athiests a relitavly small in number and are clearly identifiable. Thus they are an easy target. Relgion vs relgion conflict has a tendancy to turn nastly.

[Francois Tremblay]

:jaw-dropp

Troll. Troll, troll, troll.

Avaunt, trollish one!

If actually reading the damn Bible makes me a troll, I guess I'll have to take that title. Geesh.

I have bad news for you : many of us know the Bible more than most of you do. That's why we don't believe. We know the Bible is full fo lies and immorality, and we're not afraid to say it.

[Dr Adequate]

I have bad news for you : many of us know the Bible more than most of you do. That's why we don't believe.Hello... atheist to troll... I too do not believe.

[ned flandas]

Uh, just to make sure no one's offended, when I say "racist, frustrated cult leader", I don't mean anyone on this board. I mean the fictional Jesus character in the Bible. I wanted to add "mentally ill", but for some reason the board won't let me edit my post again.

Please tell me how Jesus is racist.

Frustrated, I can understand.

[Beerina]

Please tell me how Jesus is racist.

Frustrated, I can understand.


1. Jesus is Lord
2. The Lord picked the Jews as his special little buddies
3. Everyone else isn't
4. QED

[Ceritus]

didn't jesus make some women from another descent, beg and plead and then waited till she called herself a dog to do anything?

[Shrike]

After the recent bombings in Egypt, some of the passers-by and mildly-hurts attributed the act to 'moral-less' persons, like jews or atheists. They simmply couldn't (or refused to) believe that a muslim would want to hurt another muslim.
It's not only the christians.

[David Swidler]

1. Jesus is Lord
2. The Lord picked the Jews as his special little buddies
3. Everyone else isn't
4. QED

One hitch: You can't change your race, but anyone can convert to Judaism. It has nothing to do with race. Anyone can be God's "special little buddies" (with all the obligations that status entails). But no one has to. How exactly is that racist? If anything, the people who might feel cheated are the ones born into Judaism, not the one's who weren't. It's the opposite of racist.

ETA: Also bear in mind that Judaism doesn't (and never did, near as I can tell) demand that everyone embrace it or be damned. Of course Judaism also doesn't accept number 1 in your list, but that item doesn't figure in this tangent, since I'm not addressing Christinanity's "JC or Hell" view).

[ned flandas]

1. Jesus is Lord
2. The Lord picked the Jews as his special little buddies
3. Everyone else isn't
4. QED

1. Yep

2. God had made His covenant with Abraham (the only righteousman at the time in Gods eyes), who had Issac, and then Jacob whose name was changed to Israel. So it wasn't a nation God chose but rather a family to begin the line of His people, with His ultimate goal of calling everyone His people.

3. Jesus said to go preach the Gospel to ALL the Nations. So no-one is exluded.

4. QED???

[ned flandas]

didn't jesus make some women from another descent, beg and plead and then waited till she called herself a dog to do anything?

This is the passage that you are talking about.

Matthew15 v21-28

Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

[Tricky]

3. Jesus said to go preach the Gospel to ALL the Nations. So no-one is exluded.
Where does he say that?

As I recall Jesus said to pray in secret. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=6&verse=5&version=31&context)

[ned flandas]

TRICKY:

In acts:
He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

In Matthew
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit



The reason he said pray in secret was that at the time, people were wanting to be seen praying so that they were deemed to be 'holier than thou''. Jesus did not approve of this.

[BJQ87]

NTCs are, I hope, more plentiful, but less vocal. These are the sorts of Christians who express that whole love-your-fellow-man and be-good-stewards-of-creation thing. You know, liberal hippie tree-huggers.


I wasn't aware that there was a generalized population of liberal tree hugging christians out there so vast. You say love-your-fellow-man and be-good-stewards-of-creation, but i fail to see how you can so easily connect that to being liberal hippie tree huggers like you say.

Originally Posted by Betenoire :
The "You're going to burn in hell you dirty queers" types are OTCs.


But.... There was no hell in the OT!


I thought the word "sheol" meant hell, and is used a number of times in the old testiment.

Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. For the needy shall not always be forgotten; The expactation of the poor shall not perish forever.

Psalm 55:15 Let death seize them; Let them go down alive into hell, for wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.

Proverbs 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; So the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, you are there.

[Tricky]

TRICKY:

In acts:
He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

In Matthew
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit



The reason he said pray in secret was that at the time, people were wanting to be seen praying so that they were deemed to be 'holier than thou''. Jesus did not approve of this.
You are correct. It does say that. But how can you tell the difference between praying in public versus preaching the gospel?

It is yet another example of the bible contradicting itself.

Actually, one part of the Baptist church split back in the 1800's over this very issue.

[BJQ87]

3. Jesus said to go preach the Gospel to ALL the Nations. So no-one is exluded.

Where does he say that?

As I recall Jesus said to pray in secret.


Key word "pray" which has a whole different meaning than "preach"

And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16:15

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations" Matthew 28:19

[BJQ87]

It is yet another example of the bible contradicting itself

One has to not be foolish in interpreting the bible is all, if one interpretation contradicts itself and the other doesn't then we go by the one that works, instead of the cherry-picking one.

You should definately not pray in public as an act to display your righteousness, but if you preach in public as an act to display God's word, theres a huge difference. This doesn't really apply much to our era anyways as chances are you aren't going to see anybody walking the mall praying really loudly intentionally so that everyone can hear.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

The reason he said pray in secret was that at the time, people were wanting to be seen praying so that they were deemed to be 'holier than thou''. Jesus did not approve of this.

People wanted to appear "holier than thou"? How is that different than modern times?
LLH

[Tricky]

One has to not be foolish in interpreting the bible is all, if one interpretation contradicts itself and the other doesn't then we go by the one that works, instead of the cherry-picking one.
The "one that works"? Would that be the interpretation that fits pretty much what you want to believe anyway? Are you telling me religious people don't cherry-pick the passages that they find important while ignoring others completely? Wouldn't you say that the incredible variety in the way people worship Christ has resulted from widely different interpretations?

I think Christians ought to be glad that the bible is so self contradictory. It makes morality very flexible. Don't like the passages about Jesus enjoining people from accumulating money? Just reinterpret them to mean "valuing money above the Lord". Don't like him withering a fig tree because it wasn't bearing fruit out of season? Make it a parable.

You should definately not pray in public as an act to display your righteousness, but if you preach in public as an act to display God's word, theres a huge difference.
If someone is praying in public, how can you tell if they are doing it to display God's word or if they are trying to display their righteousness? Ask any one of them and they'll claim it was the former. It's pretty obvious Jesus just changed his mind. He was human. He's allowed to do that.

This doesn't really apply much to our era anyways as chances are you aren't going to see anybody walking the mall praying really loudly intentionally so that everyone can hear.
You hear people praying over the intercom at public events all the time. In fact, I don't think I've ever been to a single church service in any denomination where the congregation wasn't requested to pray out loud, and not using their own words either. They are asked to recite prayers from a book. To me, that seems like a blatent use of peer pressure to get someone to pray in public, just exactly what Jesus told people not to do.

[ned flandas]

You are correct. It does say that. But how can you tell the difference between praying in public versus preaching the gospel?

It is yet another example of the bible contradicting itself.


Praying and preaching are completely different

[ned flandas]

People wanted to appear "holier than thou"? How is that different than modern times?
LLH

Yeah, it happends now too.

[CplFerro]

One hitch: You can't change your race, but anyone can convert to Judaism. It has nothing to do with race. Anyone can be God's "special little buddies" (with all the obligations that status entails). But no one has to. How exactly is that racist? If anything, the people who might feel cheated are the ones born into Judaism, not the one's who weren't. It's the opposite of racist.

Don't forget the awesome advantage of being a Jew: You don't have to believe in the big J!

[1984]

Praying and preaching are completely different

And when all else fails...

Jihad!

er, I mean...

Crusade!

[David Swidler]

Don't forget the awesome advantage of being a Jew: You don't have to believe in the big J!

Um...and here are the other advantages:

Millennia of persecution; holocaust; pogroms; ghettos; expulsion at the ruler's whim (England-1290, Spain-1492, France a whole buncha times, numerous German states a whole bunch more); convenient scapegoat for anything bad, leading to the above; bans on land ownership, etc.

Add to that the 600-something Biblical commandments (OK, fine, some of them don't apply right now, such as the whole Tabernacle thing), a slew of Rabbinic supplementary stuff, local and regional extensions of those, and the obligation to study it all.

Seems a sweet deal to me, all right.

[Ceritus]

TRICKY:The reason he said pray in secret was that at the time, people were wanting to be seen praying so that they were deemed to be 'holier than thou''. Jesus did not approve of this.

How do you know this? I mean sure one could speculate and say this and this meant something different at the time but how can you decipher which is supposed to be taken differently now?

[ned flandas]

How do you know this? I mean sure one could speculate and say this and this meant something different at the time but how can you decipher which is supposed to be taken differently now?

What else could it mean?

I think Jesus is pretty clear when he says:
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full"

ALSO

If you read it in context, the passage starts with: "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven."

Then it says: "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men"

[Ceritus]

People can interpret the bible anyway they please apparently. I just like quoting the Christians this every time they try to do grace or they try to preach to me and say I should raise my hands up right here and now and pray for Jesus to enter my heart!

I say I am sorry I can't, I just don't believe in it and if I did there is a specific passage for situations like this and then I say check out Mathew 6:5 and the best is when they look puzzled, then I say you should crack open your bible every now and then!

But now knowing I can interpret it anyway I choose I could also say.
Check out Mathew 22:35-39 and when you are ready to give me a hand job give me a call! I could even wear a Jesus costume so you could be thinking about him with each stroke!

Oh the ability to just take any portion of the bible and interpret it anyway I choose sounds very fun indeed! Forget its’ specific instructions because those can all be interpreted differently because of the time they were written. Hell I think I may become a Christian again. I mean sure a preacher may say one way of looking at things when it is read from the bible but alas he is only human and in no way divine.

Lets see “thou shall not kill” could be interpreted as you shouldn’t kill anything not even grass! Or it could mean Moses shouldn’t kill anyone.