My first post (aww)

[3point14]

Hello all.

Been reading a lurking around the forum for a while, and finally decided to register so I can actually write some of my objections to some of the more ridiculous arguments leveled here (Rather than muttering them under my breath as I have done up to now)

My question is this:

Given that in the not too distant past it was mandatory to be religious, and anyone that didn't want to get carted off somewhere unpleasant was required to at least pay lip service to god, and that now it is (at least here in England) possible to be openly athiest without being stoned to death, is it possible that in the future we will be free from the restrictions of dangerous superstitions, or are we stuck with them?

Or is my perception awry? Is it getting worse and we (as a species) are sinking further and further into mystical claptrap?

Okay, that was my long winded question, this is my long winded quote - just cos it makes me laugh


I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said 'Stop! don't do it!' 'Why shouldn't I?' he said. I said, 'Well, there's so much to live for!' He said, 'Like what?' I said, 'Well...are you religious or atheist?' He said, 'Religious.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?' He said, 'Christian.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?' He said, 'Protestant.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?' He said, 'Baptist!' I said, 'Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist church of god or Baptist church of the lord?' He said, 'Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you original Baptist church of god, or are you reformed Baptist church of god?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!' I said, 'Die, heretic scum,' and pushed him off. ~Emo Phillips

[Flo]

is it possible that in the future we will be free from the restrictions of dangerous superstitions, or are we stuck with them?

Given the efforts of religions to regain their influence in the worldly affairs of man, and the willingness of our politicians to accomodate them, I fear the worst.


And welcome to the forum :)

[Babe from Missouri]

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said 'Stop! don't do it!' 'Why shouldn't I?' he said. I said, 'Well, there's so much to live for!' He said, 'Like what?' I said, 'Well...are you religious or atheist?' He said, 'Religious.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?' He said, 'Christian.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?' He said, 'Protestant.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?' He said, 'Baptist!' I said, 'Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist church of god or Baptist church of the lord?' He said, 'Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you original Baptist church of god, or are you reformed Baptist church of god?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!' I said, 'Die, heretic scum,' and pushed him off. ~Emo Phillips

dude, this is great.

[BJQ87]

Given the efforts of religions to regain their influence in the worldly affairs of man, and the willingness of our politicians to accomodate them, I fear the worst.


and what would "the worst" be?

maybe thats why everyone talks so much trash on this forum, to make up for insecurity.

"willingness to accomodate them"....yea because they're always wrong and they're trying to hurt people....trying to hurt people by making abortions illegal, and trying to hurt people by allowing prayer and the teaching of intelligent design as well as evolution in schools, and ten commandments in courthouses. Yea we're all gonna die.

[Ossai]

BJQ87
and what would "the worst" be?

maybe thats why everyone talks so much trash on this forum, to make up for insecurity.

"willingness to accomodate them"....yea because they're always wrong and they're trying to hurt people....trying to hurt people by making abortions illegal, and trying to hurt people by allowing prayer and the teaching of intelligent design as well as evolution in schools, and ten commandments in courthouses. Yea we're all gonna die.

We don’t even have to leave your post. You gave us some fine examples.

Abortions illegal – forcing people to adhere to beliefs that aren’t their own, deliberately placing people in harm
Prayer in school – harmful to the mental well being of students both from the perspective of other Christian groups as well as non-Christians
Teaching ID (ignorance deified) – teaching lies and religious belief as science, harmful to every person being taught, undermines the basis of all technology and knowledge,
Ten commandments in the courthouse – violates the bill of rights, promotes bad history

Ossai

[athon]

I'm afraid that we are biologically superstitious. Religion of some sort will always exist. We are also innately social, so social behaviour influenced by some sort of religious belief structure will always exist. We could hope to perhaps moderate this with promotion of critical thinking, but this a complicated behaviour that conflicts with what makes us comfortable.

I don't see the world changing dramatically while we remain human. However, while there will always be conflict of critical thinking over superstitious thinking, mankind won't suffer so greatly from it.

Athon

[3point14]

I think what is meant by 'fear the worst' is that the majority of progress the human race has made in the last 500 years has been in spite of religion, rather than because of it.

Any religion based on holy books written thousands of years ago will have trouble 'moving with the times' and will, while trying to maintain power, attempt to supress any thinking that directly contradicts the religigions doctrine.

Organised religion has a versted interest in maintaining the 'status quo', they recieve tax exempt status and have power granted to their priests and representatives not through a democratic process, but through an autocratic processs. We suffer the interference of religious bodies in state affairs for no other reason than (and this is admitted by those concerned) 'faith'

I appreciate that some have 'faith' in god. Other people also have 'faith' that 'the devil made them do it' or that they were abducted by aliens or that the small green gerbils are going to get them. I don't deny them this faith, but I do object to it intruding on the way I live my life or the way my country is democratically run. Religion is a drag on progress, not an incentive. I admit it may not always have been this way, but it is now, and that's why (I believe) 'fear the worst' is an appropriate phrase. (I didn't relaise I rambled so much!)

[logical muse]

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said 'Stop! don't do it!' 'Why shouldn't I?' he said. I said, 'Well, there's so much to live for!' He said, 'Like what?' I said, 'Well...are you religious or atheist?' He said, 'Religious.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?' He said, 'Christian.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?' He said, 'Protestant.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?' He said, 'Baptist!' I said, 'Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist church of god or Baptist church of the lord?' He said, 'Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you original Baptist church of god, or are you reformed Baptist church of god?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!' I said, 'Die, heretic scum,' and pushed him off. ~Emo Phillips
haha That's hilarious!

[logical muse]

"willingness to accomodate them"....yea because they're always wrong and they're trying to hurt people....trying to hurt people by making abortions illegal, and trying to hurt people by allowing prayer and the teaching of intelligent design as well as evolution in schools, and ten commandments in courthouses. Yea we're all gonna die.
Believe it or not, there are secular arguments against abortion. And, they generally make more sense than religious ones. You certainly don't have the monopoly on that. Google it if you like.

Prayer in school? You mean, brainwashing children into believing in appeals to a deity?

Teaching of ID? You mean, brainwashing children into abandoning trust in thought and logic?

Commandments in courthouses? Why stop there? Let's ban menstruating women from appearing in court too. (Leviticus 15)

[Iamme]

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said 'Stop! don't do it!' 'Why shouldn't I?' he said. I said, 'Well, there's so much to live for!' He said, 'Like what?' I said, 'Well...are you religious or atheist?' He said, 'Religious.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?' He said, 'Christian.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?' He said, 'Protestant.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?' He said, 'Baptist!' I said, 'Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist church of god or Baptist church of the lord?' He said, 'Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you original Baptist church of god, or are you reformed Baptist church of god?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!' I said, 'Die, heretic scum,' and pushed him off. ~Emo Phillips

Here's MY shortened version in a few words: The Irish Catholics and Protestants.

[BJQ87]

Abortions illegal – forcing people to adhere to beliefs that aren’t their own, deliberately placing people in harm
Prayer in school – harmful to the mental well being of students both from the perspective of other Christian groups as well as non-Christians
Teaching ID (ignorance deified) – teaching lies and religious belief as science, harmful to every person being taught, undermines the basis of all technology and knowledge,
Ten commandments in the courthouse – violates the bill of rights, promotes bad history


Prayer in school? You mean, brainwashing children into believing in appeals to a deity?

Teaching of ID? You mean, brainwashing children into abandoning trust in thought and logic?

Commandments in courthouses? Why stop there? Let's ban menstruating women from appearing in court too. (Leviticus 15)


Abortions- So if I want to kill someone and you tell me I can't then surely I'm the sane one for complaining about not being able to.

Prayer in schools- not a topic i've researched much.

(hey that looks like fun let me try)
Evolution (evilution) - teaching lies and belief that contradicts many religions as science, harmful to every person being taught, undermines the basis of all technology and knowledge.
Of course if I can't evidentially conclude that evolution is false then why should I take it out of the education system.

Lets ban menstruating women from court houses too? Hey lets not, being as the Israelites were restricted to strict laws such as these to maintain purity in a holy society.

[logical muse]

Evolution (evilution) - teaching lies and belief that contradicts many religions as science, harmful to every person being taught, undermines the basis of all technology and knowledge.
Of course if I can't evidentially conclude that evolution is false then why should I take it out of the education system.

Your statement above is a bit rambling, but I think you mean to say that you object to the teaching of lies. Good! We agree! Let's keep ID out of schools as it's a big lie and make sure that our children are taught what science has discovered to the best of our knowledge.

[rjh01]

Religion is slowly decreasing in power. In the 1950s abortion was illegal. Now it is mostly legal. Lots of shops are now open on a Sunday. Lots more examples of the decrease of the power of religion.

[bruto]

Abortions- So if I want to kill someone and you tell me I can't then surely I'm the sane one for complaining about not being able to.

Prayer in schools- not a topic i've researched much.

(hey that looks like fun let me try)
Evolution (evilution) - teaching lies and belief that contradicts many religions as science, harmful to every person being taught, undermines the basis of all technology and knowledge.
Of course if I can't evidentially conclude that evolution is false then why should I take it out of the education system.

Lets ban menstruating women from court houses too? Hey lets not, being as the Israelites were restricted to strict laws such as these to maintain purity in a holy society.

Why stop at evolution? Astronomy, physics, they're all contrary to biblical teaching.

So what majority religion do you think should be making the rules? "Religion" isn't abstract, you know. Ever thought what would happen if the Muslims become the majority religion? The Catholics are gaining too. Stock up on condoms now.

How about Divorce? Ready to go back to the old New York law? How about sodomy? There are still some places where oral sex between married partners is illegal. How about the requirement that women submit to their husbands? That's the doctrine of the Southern Baptists these days. Will religion in politics make that better, do you think? How about "artificial" birth control? Research the legal history of that.

[Ducky]

Abortions- So if I want to kill someone and you tell me I can't then surely I'm the sane one for complaining about not being able to.

strawman.



Prayer in schools- not a topic i've researched much.

(hey that looks like fun let me try)
Evolution (evilution) - teaching lies and belief that contradicts many religions as science, harmful to every person being taught, undermines the basis of all technology and knowledge.
Of course if I can't evidentially conclude that evolution is false then why should I take it out of the education system.

A complete falsehood wrapped up in another strawman, an appeal to authority, and a non-sequiter.



Lets ban menstruating women from court houses too? Hey lets not, being as the Israelites were restricted to strict laws such as these to maintain purity in a holy society.

Non-sequiter, and an asinine statement to boot.

Congrats BJQ, you've turned 3point14's first post into a steaming pile. Way to show your trollish colors early.


3point14 - welcome. We're not all as trollish as the above example. Hope to see your thoughts and wisdom in many more posts.

[Taffer]

Abortions- So if I want to kill someone and you tell me I can't then surely I'm the sane one for complaining about not being able to.

I tend to ignore the opinions of people without a uterus, when claiming we should not allow abortion.

Prayer in schools- not a topic i've researched much.

Perhaps you should before making a baseless statement, then.

(hey that looks like fun let me try)
Evolution (evilution) - teaching lies and belief that contradicts many religions as science, harmful to every person being taught, undermines the basis of all technology and knowledge.
Of course if I can't evidentially conclude that evolution is false then why should I take it out of the education system.

So evolution is bad because it contradicts the Bible? Please... :rolleyes:

Also, please show why evolution is false.

Lets ban menstruating women from court houses too? Hey lets not, being as the Israelites were restricted to strict laws such as these to maintain purity in a holy society.

So your rules are right, and all others are wrong? Please... :rolleyes:

[Roboramma]

Abortions- So if I want to kill someone and you tell me I can't then surely I'm the sane one for complaining about not being able to. For your statement to make sense you first have to show that "kill someone" actually carries the same meaning in this context as you seem to assume it does. I don't feel like arguing abortion right now, but at least realise that an argument can be made that a clump of cells and a thinking person don't carry the same moral value.

Evolution (evilution) - teaching lies and belief that contradicts many religions as science, harmful to every person being taught, undermines the basis of all technology and knowledge. Evolution isn't about religion, no matter how much the fundamentalists may treat it as such. Neither is heliocentrism. Any way in which they are is because there are some people who don't see their religion as being able to accomodate a world that has those properties.

Some people can reconcile their faith to the way the world actually is. Others close their eyes and hum.

But just because someone believes that God cooks all his meals for him, doesn't mean that it's not really the cook at the mental hospital doing it. Or that we should teach our children that maybe it is God after all.

Also, lies are deliberate mis-truths. Please show how evolution is a lie.

Of course if I can't evidentially conclude that evolution is false then why should I take it out of the education system.
We don't teach it because it hasn't been proved false. We teach it because it's the most useful approximation of how the world works that we have. There may be some minor errors in it - hopefully time will continue to bring us an even greater understanding of the world - but its the best tool we have for understanding life on this planet. And it almost certainly coresponds in basic form to the way things actually happened.

Lets ban menstruating women from court houses too? Hey lets not, being as the Israelites were restricted to strict laws such as these to maintain purity in a holy society. That's weird, I'd have thought you'd be the first person to want us to have a pure and holy society.

But whether or not you think we should do it, you seem to think that keeping menstuating women out of courthouses helps to promote that("purity in a hold society") somehow. I'd love an explanation.
"Eww" doesn't cut it, by the way.

[clarsct]

For those of you who haven't had the joy of listening to Emo Phillips...DO SO..the guy is hilarious!

Now,


About this evolution being a lie business....

Evidence?

Oh, and still waiting on ANY evidence of an intelligent designer..


Welcome 3point14. I'm figuring it is an approximation of pi? Please, join in. Any rational voice is welcomed.

[3point14]

Yeah, Pi is my nickname.

I'd write it down accurately, but I think maybe the board might not have room.

(and I do so try and be rational - sometimes I even succeed!!)

(edited)

[clarsct]

yeah...I think he's a keeper...