Ok Iamme and Iacchus...you win.

[KingMerv00]

There WAS a first cause. Great, whatever. But...

Why must the first cause be intelligent?

Why can only intelligent causes exist outside of time?

[Iacchus]

There WAS a first cause. Great, whatever. But...

Why must the first cause be intelligent?

Why can only intelligent causes exist outside of time?Primarily because the spiritual world (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=45982&page=11) -- of which the material world is a subset of -- exists outside of time and space.

[cyborg]

Prove it. TM

[Betenoire]

Primarily because the spiritual world -- of which the material world is a subset of -- exists outside of time and space.

Why must it be a spiritual world that exists outside of the material world?

[Betenoire]

duplicate

[Nyarlathotep]

Primarily because the spiritual world -- of which the material world is a subset of -- exists outside of time and space.

That assumption is quite a jump. It assumes everal things that you haven't shown.The biggest being that it assumes that that there even IS a spiritual world. Prove that, then we can work on the rest of the assumptions you have made.

[KingMerv00]

Primarily because the spiritual world -- of which the material world is a subset of -- exists outside of time and space.


Maybe Iamme will have something smarter to say.

[kmortis]

Maybe Iamme will have something smarter to say.

:dl:

[Iacchus]

That assumption is quite a jump. It assumes everal things that you haven't shown.The biggest being that it assumes that that there even IS a spiritual world. Prove that, then we can work on the rest of the assumptions you have made.Yes, I agree, some of us would have to assume this was so.

[Mercutio]

Yes, I agree, some of us would have to assume this was so.The rest just make it up, and know it is a fiction.

[KingMerv00]

:dl:
You're right...there is more evidence for the spirit world.

[KingMerv00]

Yes, I agree, some of us would have to assume this was so.


Your beliefs are based on assumptions. You actually said it.

Well I guess that means the skeptics win.

[Nyarlathotep]

Yes, I agree, some of us would have to assume this was so.


Yeah, why bother proving a claim when its so much quicker just to say it.

P.s. You know what they say about the word 'assume'.....

[Iacchus]

Yeah, why bother proving a claim when its so much quicker just to say it.

P.s. You know what they say about the word 'assume'.....Can I prove it to you? I'm not so sure I can. That does not mean, however, that it cannot be proven. ;)

[Iacchus]

Your beliefs are based on assumptions. You actually said it.

Well I guess that means the skeptics win.Yes, my beliefs seemed to be based upon your assumptions.

[Nyarlathotep]

Can I prove it to you? I'm not so sure I can. That does not mean, however, that it cannot be proven. ;)

Yeah, yeah yeah. The same old cry that every other woo in the world uses. "You nasty old skeptics have such closed minds, you won't accept any proof. So I won't bother proving my claims".

Every time I hear any variant of that, I think its a bluff to cover the fact that you don't have anything. Consider your bluff called. Show your cards. Put up or shut up.

[Iacchus]

Primarily because the spiritual world (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=45982&page=11) -- of which the material world is a subset of -- exists outside of time and space.Sorry, am reposting this because I meant to add the previous thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=45982&page=11) when posting initally. It was in the editor box when I was getting ready to post, but the server crapped out. At the moment, I seem a bit unprepared to speak about the spiritual dimension, however, this other thread seems to take a step in the right direction.

[Nyarlathotep]

Sorry, am reposting this because I meant to add the previous thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=45982&page=11) when posting initally. It was in the editor box when I was getting ready to post, but the server crapped out. At the moment, I seem a bit unprepared to speak about the spiritual dimension, however, this other thread seems to take a step in the right direction.

Oooookaaaaay. your proof consists of a link to another thread with nothing but more unsupported assertions on your part. Which by your own admission only "seems to take a step in the right direction". And I wouldn't even agree on that much.

Here you were two posts ago acting like you were holding four aces on the "proof of a spiritual world" thing and it turns out all you have is a pair of threes. How very disapointing.

[kmortis]

Oooookaaaaay. your proof consists of a link to another thread with nothing but more unsupported assertions on your part. Which by your own admission only "seems to take a step in the right direction". And I wouldn't even agree on that much.

Here you were two posts ago acting like you were holding four aces on the "proof of a spiritual world" thing and it turns out all you have is a pair of threes. How very disapointing.

Yet, very much in character

[bagtaggar]

Iacchus, your avatar is gay as hell.

(No offense to anyone with an alternative lifestyle. I have gay friends who use the word the same way. It's just funny.)

[Iacchus]

Every time I hear any variant of that, I think its a bluff to cover the fact that you don't have anything. Consider your bluff called. Show your cards. Put up or shut up.Yes, and this is wholly your assumption. So basically, what this is akin to, is your asking me to prove that my mother is not a whore. Which, is just about the way it is with any so-called bastard (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/text?lookup=eur.+ba.+1) (of a notion) attributable to religion now isn't it? :eye-poppi :eye-poppi :eye-poppi

[Nyarlathotep]

Yes, and this is wholly your assumption. So basically, what this is akin to, is your asking me to prove that my mother is not a whore. Which, is just about the way it is with any so-called bastard (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/text?lookup=eur.+ba.+1) (of a notion) attributable to religion now isn't it? :eye-poppi

Ah, but you have it backwards. If I were to claim your mother is a whore, it wouldn't be your job to prove she isn't, it would be my job to prove she is. And if I failed to do so it would be reasonable to conclude my claim was false.

In this case YOU are the one making the claim, specifically that there exists a "spiritual world" (and with a whole bunch of other calims tacked onto that). Therefor it is incumbent upon you to prove it, not me to disprove it. And you are failing at the job, miserably.

[kmortis]

Yes, and this is wholly your assumption. So basically, what this is akin to, is your asking me to prove that my mother is not a whore. Which, is just about the way it is with any so-called bastard (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/text?lookup=eur.+ba.+1) (of a notion) attributable to religion now isn't it? :eye-poppi


Nice mis-direction, there Iacchus. Again, you get asked to give your proof for something that you CLAIM to KNOW, and yet when asked, you say that you can't be bothered, don't feel like it, get insulted, etc etc etc et al. The act is very tired, really. If you don't want to be tested, then don't come here and say that you "know" something that you aren't willing to demonstrate your knowledge source.

Oooo, you guys might make fun of me...ooo...I'm so a'scared. Little ol' skeptics might poke hole in my pet theory like they do to all the other soft-brained people out there.

Well, no chickens, Iacchus. If the theory is that bad, it deserves to have holes poked in it. Too bad...so sad.

[Iacchus]

The rest just make it up, and know it is a fiction.
What, do you mean like Euripides', The Bacchae? (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/text?lookup=eur.+ba.+1)

[Iacchus]

Nice mis-direction, there Iacchus. Again, you get asked to give your proof for something that you CLAIM to KNOW, and yet when asked, you say that you can't be bothered, don't feel like it, get insulted, etc etc etc et al. The act is very tired, really. If you don't want to be tested, then don't come here and say that you "know" something that you aren't willing to demonstrate your knowledge source.Well, I have to work with whatever means I have available. :con2: Neither can I force myself to say things when it's not there for me to say it.

[kmortis]

What, do you mean like Euripides', The Bacchae? (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/text?lookup=eur.+ba.+1)


Or this. (http://www.dionysus.org/)

[Betenoire]

What, do you mean like Euripides', The Bacchae

Non-sequiwho? Iacchas, can you write a simple sentence saying "We know the spiritual world exists because X" and plug in a single point of evidence for X? If you have more than one point of evidence, write many sentences in that same form. Just give us the positive evidence for your claim. Please.

[Betenoire]

Well, I have to work with whatever means I have available. :con2: Neither can I force myself to say things when it's not there for me to say it.

So the evidence isn't there for you to say it?

[bagtaggar]

Non-sequiwho? Iacchas, can you write a simple sentence saying "We know the spiritual world exists because X" and plug in a single point of evidence for X? If you have more than one point of evidence, write many sentences in that same form. Just give us the positive evidence for your claim. Please.

Seconded.

[Iacchus]

Or this. (http://www.dionysus.org/)Or, what about this? (http://www.dionysus.org/x0501.html) In fact, it has very much to do with Nicodemus when he asks if he should crawl back into his mother's womb in order to be born again.

[Nyarlathotep]

Well, I have to work with whatever means I have available. :con2: Neither can I force myself to say things when it's not there for me to say it.


In other words, despite your claims to the contrary, you CAN'T prove what you say. You are just making this up as you go along.

[Iacchus]

Non-sequiwho? Iacchas, can you write a simple sentence saying "We know the spiritual world exists because X" and plug in a single point of evidence for X? If you have more than one point of evidence, write many sentences in that same form. Just give us the positive evidence for your claim. Please.Yes, I do know that the evidence exists but, the evidence is personal (http://www.dionysus.org/x0501.html).

[Iacchus]

Non-sequiwho? Iacchas, can you write a simple sentence saying "We know the spiritual world exists because X" and plug in a single point of evidence for X? If you have more than one point of evidence, write many sentences in that same form. Just give us the positive evidence for your claim. Please.Oh, and try this one (http://www.dionysus.org/x0901.html) out for size too.

[HeyLeroy]

Yes, I do know that the evidence exists but, the evidence is personal (http://www.dionysus.org/x0501.html).

How homoerotic.

If your evidence is so personal, why not just keep it that way?

[Iacchus]

In other words, despite your claims to the contrary, you CAN'T prove what you say. You are just making this up as you go along.Again, how do you know that this is any more than an assumption on your part? :)

[HeyLeroy]

:yo-yo: Oh, man, this guy is like crack to a crackhead. You just... can't...
GRRR!

[Iacchus]

How homoerotic.

If your evidence is so personal, why not just keep it that way?Because it has everything to do with what is archetypal perhaps?

[bagtaggar]

So, basically some homosexy dreams and hallucinations.

Damn people, maybe he's got something here.

Something big and throbbing and red.

In his hand.

Iacchus, get some freaking medication.

[Nyarlathotep]

Again, how do you know that this is any more than an assumption on your part? :)

Because you just admitted it.

[Betenoire]

Again, how do you know that this is any more than an assumption on your part? :)

Because evidence is true for all observers, not just one.

[Nyarlathotep]

So, basically some homosexy dreams and hallucinations.

Damn people, maybe he's got something here.

Something big and throbbing and red.

In his hand.

Iacchus, get some freaking medication.

For a change, I agree with you completely and unreservedly.

[Iacchus]

So, basically some homosexy dreams and hallucinations.

Damn people, maybe he's got something here.

Something big and throbbing and red.

In his hand.

Iacchus, get some freaking medication.Either that, or you're out of your skull ... :boggled:

[bagtaggar]

He awoke from his mystic experience, and before him was a glorious vision, a vision of hope and truth, a vision of spirituality...

http://home.no.net/renastud/revy/pics/homo.jpg

[Iacchus]

Because you just admitted it.No, I admitted that any ideas you may have about me are wholly your assumption ... not mine. :)

[kmortis]

No, I admitted that any ideas you may have about me are wholly your assumption ... not mine. :)


All around the mullberry bush,
Iacchus chases the idea
Iacchus thought 'twas all assumed
Pop! goes the theory!

[Nyarlathotep]

No, I admitted that any ideas you may have about me are wholly your assumption ... not mine. :)

No, you said

Well, I have to work with whatever means I have available. Neither can I force myself to say things when it's not there for me to say it.

That sounds an awful lot like "I've have no proof to give you", to me. If that's not your meaning, then feel free to elaborate.

By the way, talking obliquely, like in the first quote, doesn't make you sound like a wise Zen riddlemaster, it makes you sound evasive. Perhaps you ought to try speaking plainly. That would make a nice change.

[Iacchus]

That sounds an awful lot like "I've have no proof to give you", to me. If that's not your meaning, then feel free to elaborate.No, if it isn't within me to repond at the time, it isn't within me to respond. These things are not all that easy to talk about, and I rarely respond from the standpoint of being rehearsed.

[Iacchus]

By the way, talking obliquely, like in the first quote, doesn't make you sound like a wise Zen riddlemaster, it makes you sound evasive. Perhaps you ought to try speaking plainly. That would make a nice change.Actually, it's very much like a blank slate when I approach these forums and, in fact it's very much like a riddle to me too. So, guess what all the fun and games are about? :D

[Iacchus]

He awoke from his mystic experience, and before him was a glorious vision, a vision of hope and truth, a vision of spirituality...

http://home.no.net/renastud/revy/pics/homo.jpgWhile I'm sure you've got more where that came from, right? :jaw-dropp

[kmortis]

Actually, it's very much like a blank slate when I approach these forums and, in fact it's very much like a riddle to me too. So, guess what all the fun and games are about? :D

Argument by Tabla Rasa?

[Betenoire]

Argument by Tabla Rasa?

"My mental slate is empty, so I must be right".

[kmortis]

"My mental slate is empty, so I must be right".

I guess it's a variant on Argument from Ignorance?

[PatKelley]

I guess it's a variant on Argument from Ignorance?
More like an argument from Complete Ignorance. Including the subject of the argument.

Ignorance ignores. Absolute Ignorance ignores absolutely.

[Iamme]

There WAS a first cause. Great, whatever. But...

Why must the first cause be intelligent?

Why can only intelligent causes exist outside of time?

See my new thread I started moments ago. It will be an eye opener. This will cause you all to reassess your position on uniteligent design.

To answer your first question: Because. Because I will tell you in my new thread.

About your second question: What? Who said that? Are you getting at the fact that no new creation has occurred since the Big Bang? That everything we have today, going on, is really the 'fallout' from the Big Bang? If that is basically it, without splitting hairs, I see what you are getting at. Yes, God really doesn't seem to be interfering in his original plan once it was set in motion. Or ISN'T he?! How would we know? How would we know if it was just random chance that the dinosauers were eliminated, for example? How do you not know that the shifting of the continents wasn't an after thought?
How do we not know that part of the original creation of the "Let it be!" wasn't in the initial creation but in the 'allowance' of change through evolution, erosion, etc.? In other words, creation could be a rather proactive thing.

[Betenoire]

That thread? Not an eye opener. Not really even relevant to the discussion we were having here.
So, back to the questions you were asked, and which you have yet to answer.

[Iacchus]

"My mental slate is empty, so I must be right".Either that or my mind is clear of excess garbage. You know, there are a lot of things that really aren't worth holding onto.

[DreadNiK]

Either that or my mind is clear of excess garbage. You know, there are a lot of things that really aren't worth holding onto.

See my new thread I started moments ago. It will be an eye opener. This will cause you all to reassess your position on uniteligent design.

This for me is the key piece of evidence that leads me to conclude you Ia bros are full of...it.

You are both the sort of people that are ignorant, and in their ignorance have decided that they are special and know better about these sorts of things, merely by coming up with their own inane thoughts based partly on other people's foolish (and not so foolish in their own time) ideas.

If I thought I had some really important new idea that I wanted to share on here, I would post it in a manner receptive to intelligent discussion and criticism, because I am humble enough to realise a) I can be wrong and b) given that there are many people who know more about many things than I do, it would be a good idea to listen.

But hey, I get the feeling that there are plenty of skeptics (I'm probably one) who enjoy these head-banging-against-wall sessions because it allows them to vent, and also to think "At least I'm not a wack-job like these trolls." (however, then one might sometimes think "maybe it is much less stressful and worrying to be so simple and foolish" and then that leads to voluntary lobotomies...

Voluntary lobotomies...a rather apt image for this thread I feel.

[Iacchus]

Hey, did you read the part about where I died and gave birth to myself? (http://www.dionysus.org/x0501.html)

[Cosmo]

Hey, did you read the part about where I died and gave birth to myself? (http://www.dionysus.org/x0501.html)

How does one respond to something like this?

[Iacchus]

How does one respond to something like this?What, do you need a wheel chair or something? Well, the post (above mine) was addressed to me by the way. :)

But then again, maybe the link doesn't help dispell the notion of my being a "wack-job?" It does give an indication, however, that my claims are not entirely unfounded ... unless of course you believe I'm making that up too.

[c4ts]

There WAS a first cause. Great, whatever. But...

Why must the first cause be intelligent?

Why can only intelligent causes exist outside of time?

AZATHOTH IS THE PRIME MOVER!!

[Iacchus]

AZATHOTH IS THE PRIME MOVER!!Because everything is bound up within the first cause and Universal Seed.

[ahoneycutt]

WTF? anyone else read this? "Passage" 7 on:


Hey, did you read the part about where I died and gave birth to myself? (http://www.dionysus.org/x0501.html)


This is evidence for what exactly?

[ahoneycutt]

It does give an indication, however, that my claims are not entirely unfounded ... unless of course you believe I'm making that up too.

Maybe you didn't mean to make them up, or maybe you did, but I think this detracts from the credibility of your argument rather than supporting it.

I believe you are either having wild hallucinations or you're making it up, unless you have evidence that any of this actually happened.

[Iacchus]

Maybe you didn't mean to make them up, or maybe you did, but I think this detracts from the credibility of your argument rather than supporting it.Not in my eyes.

I believe you are either having wild hallucinations or you're making it up, unless you have evidence that any of this actually happened.It still constitutes evidence, regardless.

[kmortis]

Not in my eyes.

It still constitutes evidence, regardless.

{rolls up newspaper} [WHAP] Bad Iacchus, bad,bad,bad Iacchus.

Dreams, visions, hallucinations, wishes, ancedotes; none of these are evidence. Evidence is somethng that we can frelling TEST. What is so cotton-pickin' difficult for you to understand about this? Jesus-effing-christ-onna-pogostick! We've all been over this with you, so I know that you're not ig'nant. I know that there are some braincells operating in there, cause you can construct a reasonable (in the non-Kilik sense) sentence. What I don't understand is how you can continue to think that we'll accept anything that boils down to "your word" as evidence?

{deep breath}

Ok, I'm feeling MUCH better now.

Iacchus. Please. One piece of TESTABLE evidence. Not dreams. Not visons. Not god-told-me-so's. Testable, tangable evidence.

Or, admit that this spirit realm, and all your associated "theories" are a religious belief that have no correlation in the real world.

[TobiasTheViking]

{deep breath}

Relax, go pop in a Farscape dvd before one of the veines in your brain ruptures.

Please.

Watch a good farscape episode. I suggest "Won't Be Fooled Again" or "Revenging Angel" for something amusing. Though "Unrealized Reality" is a also a very good episode, just not haha amusing.

Sincerely
Tobias

[kmortis]

Relax, go pop in a Farscape dvd before one of the veines in your brain ruptures.

Please.

Watch a good farscape episode. I suggest "Won't Be Fooled Again" or "Revenging Angel" for something amusing. Though "Unrealized Reality" is a also a very good episode, just not haha amusing.

Sincerely
Tobias

Actually, I'm gonna go out and clean up all the frelling leaves in my yard. The only problem that I've found with owning 5 acres is that I have to take care of five acres. :D

[TobiasTheViking]

Then a good lecture on [portable media player of choice] :D

Sincerely
Tobias

[Nyarlathotep]

But then again, maybe the link doesn't help dispell the notion of my being a "wack-job?" It does give an indication, however, that my claims are not entirely unfounded ... unless of course you believe I'm making that up too.

Wrong again. I am completely willing to accept that you are not making up the part about having these dreams. However using dreams as the foundation for the sort of claims you are making is, for all practical purposes, the same as making unfounded claims. The only things dreams mean is that you went to sleep that night, nothing more, nothing less.

[c4ts]

What, do you mean like Euripides', The Bacchae? (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/text?lookup=eur.+ba.+1)

Unless you come bearing a huge bowl of wine, full of song and revelry and dancing girls, shoo. Otherwise stop making the absurd claims and make with the drunken revelry.

[Betenoire]

Unless you come bearing a huge bowl of wine, full of song and revelry and dancing girls, shoo. Otherwise stop making the absurd claims and make with the drunken revelry.

Wouldn't it be nice if all these debates came with wine, women, and song? I'd so let the IDers keep at it, just so I could keep jumping in the debates.

[c4ts]

ID would be so much more palatble with booze.

"Irreducabable what? I'll drink to that!"

[kmortis]

Wouldn't it be nice if all these debates came with wine, women, and song? I'd so let the IDers keep at it, just so I could keep jumping in the debates.

Kind of like those TV drinking games?
Take a shot when Behe says:
"Irreducably complex"
"Second Law of Theromdynamics"
Take two whenever he properly states a scientific thoery in context....

Something like that.

[Betenoire]

And when he offers actual, valid, verifiable positive evidence for a prediction made by ID?
Do the whole fifth.

[c4ts]

Because everything is bound up within the first cause and Universal Seed.

Iacchus, this is Azathoth:
http://www.netherreal.de/library/lex_entry/a1.htm
Azathoth. One of the Outer Gods and considered the center of all the universe. Azathoth is described by Lovecraft as "that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemies and bubbles at the center of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes."
Azathoth is the ruler of all Outer Gods and is considered timeless, having existed since before the creation of all the universe. None have seen Azathoth and told the tale, the mindless fluting of Azathoth's servitors as they orbit the idiot god driving simple man to his death. It is whispered that Nyarlathotep stands at Azathoth's beck and call, though what missions a mass of chaos would desire is beyond comprehension.
Though never directly mentioned, it can be speculated that Azathoth is the center of creation from whence all things come, the ultimate chaos at the center of the universe which gives life and death at its fancy.
Here are some illustrations:
http://rhedman2.home.comcast.net/images/azathoth.jpg
http://www.tentacules.net/toc/toc_/myt/crea_serviteur.jpg

I am glad you have decided to join the cult of blasphemous insanity. Speak to Nyarlathotep, he is the voice of the chaotic void, Azathoth's messenger, who brings us nothing but destruction. Azathoth is oblivious to all, he does not care for his followers. Only the mad would follow him, those who have heard the mindless piping of the death god's attendants!

[Betenoire]

Azathoth is the FSM? *shudder* I was taken in by the cute veneer!

[kmortis]

Azathoth is the FSM? *shudder* I was taken in by the cute veneer!

Would that make Nyarlathotep one of his noodley appendages?

[Nyarlathotep]

Would that make Nyarlathotep one of his noodley appendages?

I'd tell you but then I'd have to drive you insane afterwards.

[kmortis]

I'd tell you but then I'd have to drive you insane afterwards.
Too late. I've been arguing with Iacchus.