Why do I need to believe?

[AnotherSillyAlias]

Maybe one of the religiously inclined can answer this.

Religious fanatics, of all shapes and sizes, seem almost desperate to try and convince me that I should believe in their various fantasies. Why? I don't insist, nor do I have any interest in, trying to convince them of what I believe. I've never had any atheists knock on my door and try to convince me that supernatural powers are a crock. I can't help but get the feeling that, deep down, they are are so very insecure that they need to convince others of their delusions in order to bolster their own beliefs.

If you want to believe the universe is controlled by some variety of god(s), (or mystical green giraffes for that matter), great, good for you, but why so desperate to convince me?

[BJQ87]

mostly the people who are going to knock on your door will be "jahova's witnesses". Quite frankly i'd agree with you a lot of these people are insecure and need to bolster their beliefs to feel superior...because thats what it seems like some of them do, they feel superior because of their belief. There is a huge difference between loving religion and loving Jesus Christ. I think I even heard that part of the "watchtower" set of fundamental beliefs is that if you aren't part of the watchtower then you're going to hell, because it is God's holy establishment or something crazy like that....idk if thats correct i heard it on a christian talk radio station once, they were giving advice on what does a believer in Christ do when a Jahova's witness knocks on your door...mostly you tell them about what Christ means to you personally.

[Iacchus]

Maybe one of the religiously inclined can answer this.

Religious fanatics, of all shapes and sizes, seem almost desperate to try and convince me that I should believe in their various fantasies. Why? I don't insist, nor do I have any interest in, trying to convince them of what I believe. I've never had any atheists knock on my door and try to convince me that supernatural powers are a crock. I can't help but get the feeling that, deep down, they are are so very insecure that they need to convince others of their delusions in order to bolster their own beliefs.

If you want to believe the universe is controlled by some variety of god(s), (or mystical green giraffes for that matter), great, good for you, but why so desperate to convince me?Okay, so you are grouping those who are religiously inclined, with those who are religious fanatics? Is that correct?

[AnotherSillyAlias]

Okay, so you are grouping those who are religiously inclined, with those who are religious fanatics? Is that correct?

I can see how it reads that way, very poorly written, it wasn't my intention.

I was pointing out the actions of some religious fanatics and wondering why they do it. I was hoping the religiously inclined might have a better insight into their actions than I do. I certainly didn't mean to imply that everyone religiously inclined is a fanatic.

Perhaps the word "fanatic" could have been replaced with another less "charged" one.

[Ryokan]

mostly the people who are going to knock on your door will be "jahova's witnesses".

I've had many more Evangelicals than JW's at my door. And believe me, the JW's are a lot more pleasant.

[PatKelley]

I had the members of an apocalyptic cult come by. They were handing out tracts, and darned if I can find it. They have a compound surrounded with earth barriers behind a supermarket nearby.

[Iacchus]

Perhaps the word "fanatic" could have been replaced with another less "charged" one.No, I think your choice of words are fine, just so long as you let it be known there's a difference between the two. :)

[AnotherSillyAlias]

I had the members of an apocalyptic cult come by. They were handing out tracts, and darned if I can find it. They have a compound surrounded with earth barriers behind a supermarket nearby.

I'm not so interested in the really weird sounding ones, well not in this instance, I'm more interested in knowing why SOME people have this serious need to convince me that what they believe is true.

People who feel the need to isolate themselves from everyone else behind physical barriers have other problems IMHO. :)

[Nyarlathotep]

I think I even heard that part of the "watchtower" set of fundamental beliefs is that if you aren't part of the watchtower then you're going to hell, because it is God's holy establishment or something crazy like that....idk if thats correct i heard it on a christian talk radio station once, they were giving advice on what does a believer in Christ do when a Jahova's witness knocks on your door...mostly you tell them about what Christ means to you personally.

You heard incorrectly. I have a good friend who is JW (and surprisingly un-pushya bout it) and she has told me about her beliefs. JW's do not beleive in hell, per se. They simply beleive that if you don't subscribe to their beliefs then when you die, you die. No heaven, no resurrection and no saving throw.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

JW's do not beleive in hell, per se. They simply beleive that if you don't subscribe to their beliefs then when you die, you die. No heaven, no resurrection and no saving throw.

Seems a bit wishy washy, how is that supposed to scare the peasants?

:)

[dann]

(...) Why? (...) but why so desperate to convince me?They need their converts the same way they need their miracles, gurus, and churches.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=46293
You, on the other hand, don't feel the need to meet with others of your 'faith' once a week to confirm your 'belief' that so far no god has appeared to you. And why should you? The need for confirmation only arises when you want to believe in something for which there is no real reason in the world as we know it. Nobody feels the need to go from door to door to tell other people that e.g. Ozzy Osbourne exists! Nor would you feel particularly threatened if somebody insisted that Ozzy isn't real ...

[jjramsey]

Nor would you feel particularly threatened if somebody insisted that Ozzy isn't real ...

No, but you would probably be annoyed at people distorting the facts to make their case that Ozzy didn't exist. :p

Discussion of that issue is best continued at this thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=46853

[logical muse]

I'm no expert on anything, let alone religion, but

Actually, I think I've just disqualified myself from partaking in this discussion.

Hang on, it's religion! I don't need to be an expert! :)

Xians are legitimately concerned for the wellbeing of your soul. Well, legitimately according to their beliefs. You'd try and save someone from a burning house if you could, right? They think they're doing the same.

Whilst we can all agree on whether or not a house is burning, there seems to be some dispute as to the veracity of eternal damnation. Those of us who don't believe in such fantasy have no desire to be saved, but the believers feel it's their duty.

[dann]

No, but you would probably be annoyed at people distorting the facts to make their case that Ozzy didn't exist. :pIn the case of Ozzy? No, not really!

[dann]

Xians are legitimately concerned for the wellbeing of your soul. Well, legitimately according to their beliefs. You'd try and save someone from a burning house if you could, right?If I could and didn't endanger myself too much, yes, I probably would.

They think they're doing the same.No, they don't! If they did, they wouldn't try to save people from burning houses. They would let them die and go to paradise. The sooner the better! As it is, they'd probably behave much the same way I would in an emergency.

Whilst we can all agree on whether or not a house is burning, there seems to be some dispute as to the veracity of eternal damnation. Those of us who don't believe in such fantasy have no desire to be saved, but the believers feel it's their duty.The perfect subterfuge, isn't it? 'I don't do it for me, I am totally unselfish and only doing it for your sake!'

[logical muse]

If I could and didn't endanger myself too much, yes, I probably would.

No, they don't! If they did, they wouldn't try to save people from burning houses. They would let them die and go to paradise. The sooner the better! As it is, they'd probably behave much the same way I would in an emergency.

The perfect subterfuge, isn't it? 'I don't do it for me, I am totally unselfish and only doing it for your sake!'
The thing is, there are religious people in my life who despair for the salvation of my eternal soul. They truly believe that I'm going to hell, or somewhere like that. They love me, and want to prevent that from happening. They'll be spending eternity sobbing into the long hair of Jesus at my fate, apparently.

I'd like to console them, that I'll be OK. It's heartbreaking that they are suffering because of what their beliefs tell them is going to happen to me.

[kmortis]

No, I think your choice of words are fine, just so long as you let it be known there's a difference between the two. :)

Cause a fanatic would only knock on yer door to hand you a tract. A religiously inclined person would stalk you on your internet forum and post incomprehensable posts for days on end...is that it, Iacchus? :p

Edited to make it a question....

[kmortis]

Maybe one of the religiously inclined can answer this.

Religious fanatics, of all shapes and sizes, seem almost desperate to try and convince me that I should believe in their various fantasies. Why? I don't insist, nor do I have any interest in, trying to convince them of what I believe. I've never had any atheists knock on my door and try to convince me that supernatural powers are a crock. I can't help but get the feeling that, deep down, they are are so very insecure that they need to convince others of their delusions in order to bolster their own beliefs.

If you want to believe the universe is controlled by some variety of god(s), (or mystical green giraffes for that matter), great, good for you, but why so desperate to convince me?

The really simple answer, ASA, is that Xians have this thing called the Great Commission. Jebus told them (in a seperate place from the "this generation shall not pass away before i come back" passage) that if his message didn't get to everyone, he wasn't coming back. And also, he gave a general proscription to go an' TESTIFY MY BROTHAH! AMEN!!

<kafkaf>

[Ceritus]

Don't be fooled, not everyone wants to convince you their religion is the correct one and should be obeyed because they are insecure with it. Some genuinely believe their religion is correct and fear for you. To some converting a person to their religion is the same as rescuing a stranger from a fire. Just because they are deluded it does not mean their intentions are not genuinely good.

My little brother has downs syndrome and back when I used to live with my parents and was going to school he took a few of my books and some of my homework and threw it in the fire place. I was so upset and so angry because I had to buy those books and I had spent a lot of time on my homework. When I looked at him and yelled at him asking why he would do something like that he told me. They make you angry and sad and I want to make you happy. I will never forget that, every time some evangelist or JW tries to convert me to their religion I just think back to that day I had with my brother. Some people just do not have the ability to know anything more, but with the knowledge they have they try to do the best they can with it. For those who do have the ability to know and do more they either become scam artist evangelists because of their lack of morals or their abundance of greed but every now and then there are those who still continue to have and display compassion and generosity those people normally become agnostics or atheists.

The next time some evangelical comes to your door, instead of being abrasive with them or down right mean. Try to welcome them in and offer them something to eat or drink if you can. Have them sit down and let them explain to you without interruption or reactions of disgust and when they are finished tell them what you believe and why you believe it as well. Ask them to give you the same consideration you have given them. If they become hostile or upset ask them to leave in a polite manner. If they start screaming you will be going to hell just politely tell them you don't believe in hell and you don't understand. If they try to explain to you what hell is just ask them who has gone to hell and how do they know. If they say they know because the bible says so politely reply just because it is in a book it does not mean its true then go grab some fictional book you own if you want. If they say it is so ancient and it must be true to have survived so many years go grab an old map of the world where the USSR is still labeled and tell them you used to know this map to be true but in these few years it is no longer. Then ask them what makes them believe their book is any more accurate?


I cannot help but feel that it is the abrasive reactions or the hostile behavior being displayed by those who are not of their faith that drives them to proclaim their faith even more. Just be the better man and perhaps in time they can do the same for the Satanists/Islamics who come to their doors.

If you think about it there is very little difference between racism, religion, and the inability to understand whats real and whats not.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

My little brother has downs syndrome and back when I used to live with my parents and was going to school he took a few of my books and some of my homework and threw it in the fire place. I was so upset and so angry because I had to buy those books and I had spent a lot of time on my homework. When I looked at him and yelled at him asking why he would do something like that he told me. They make you angry and sad and I want to make you happy. I will never forget that, every time some evangelist or JW tries to convert me to their religion I just think back to that day I had with my brother. Some people just do not have the ability to know anything more, but with the knowledge they have they try to do the best they can with it.

To some extent I agree with you but the people coming round to my door, (actually, I haven't seen one for quite some time), are not children, (although they occasionally drag the poor little buggers with them), nor are they Downes Syndrome sufferers. They are, supposedly, educated, (and most adults here are educated to at least 4th year high school at minimum), adults and regardless of what they believe, they should have the good manners not to try and convert me. I'm not totally convinced with the fire analogy, I am not obviously in any physical danger. If they can't stop themselves from bothering me then I can only conclude that they have a serious psychological problem.

What would be there reaction if I tried to convince them that they were deluded? I'm not sure I'd receive the kind of treatment you advocate above.

If they feel they have to harrass me to gain their ticket to paradise then I have no qualms about giving them a hard time.

[dann]

Well, ASA, I actually think that you should try Ceritus' strategy the next time these people come to your door: Look at them, yell at them and ask them why the f*ck they do something like that. And when they tell you that they only want to make you happy, be patient, apologize for yelling at them and explain carefully exactly what to do if they serious about wanting to make you happy!

[dann]

If you think about it there is very little difference between racism, religion, and the inability to understand whats real and whats not.Let me see if I've got this right:
So the next time some racists come to your door, instead of being abrasive with them or down right mean, I should try to welcome them in and offer them something to eat or drink, have them sit down and let them explain to me without interruption or reactions of disgust, and when they are finished I should tell them what I believe and why I believe it. Then I ask them to give me the same consideration I have given them. [Does that include something to eat or drink??!] If they become hostile or upset, I ask them to leave in a polite manner, and if they start screaming that my race is the root of all evil and ought to be exterminated, I just politely tell them that I don't believe in racism and don't understand.

[dann]

The thing is, there are religious people in my life who despair for the salvation of my eternal soul. They truly believe that I'm going to hell, or somewhere like that. They love me, and want to prevent that from happening. They'll be spending eternity sobbing into the long hair of Jesus at my fate, apparently.Did you also buy your father's saying, "This hurts me much more than it hurts you."???

I'd like to console them, that I'll be OK. It's heartbreaking that they are suffering because of what their beliefs tell them is going to happen to me. No, it isn't! The cure for that kind of despair and suffering is easily administered and very, very cheap! But do they want it? Do they accept it when you tell them how anguished you are at their suffering? Are they so willing to help you that they'll as much as contemplate accepting the cure you offer them? I mean, they only want what's good for you, don't they?

[Ceritus]

Let me see if I've got this right:
So the next time some racists come to your door, instead of being abrasive with them or down right mean, I should try to welcome them in and offer them something to eat or drink, have them sit down and let them explain to me without interruption or reactions of disgust, and when they are finished I should tell them what I believe and why I believe it. Then I ask them to give me the same consideration I have given them. [Does that include something to eat or drink??!] If they become hostile or upset, I ask them to leave in a polite manner, and if they start screaming that my race is the root of all evil and ought to be exterminated, I just politely tell them that I don't believe in racism and don't understand.

Yes, if they claim your race is the root of all evil try and prove them wrong through your kindness. Racism and Religion are attributes to ignorance or fear of the unknown. Many racists have been changed through constant kindness and then again some have not.

As for telling them that you do not believe in racism that would be an unwise thing to do because there are many real examples of racism throughout the world and history that are well documented. There have been crosses burned on lawns, people hung in trees because of their color and don't get me into the whole segregation thing of the past.

As for offering them food and drink from my point of view I think you should only if you can afford it of course. If they came to your house and you sincerely believe they came to start a physical fight then no do not invite them in. Instead call the cops if you feel threatened and if they break in then defend yourself by all means but don't let their hate become yours.

Religion and Racism are real things like I said before. They are both beliefs that are caused by ignorance. Attributes such as heaven and hell cannot be compaired with racism simply because neither heaven nor hell are true in the realm of reality. But as for heaven and hell being compaired to some beliefs held by racists like "your race is the root of all evil" then yes that is an easy compairison because that is also untrue.

I am not trying to sound like a sappy ignorent hippy from the flower of love hotel. I just think we should be more tolerant. I know it is hard I really do but even if you show tolerance 2billion times in your lifetime and only changed 1 person then it was all worth it in my eyes. But if you prefer beating the ignorance out of someone then so be it because that is your choice. I just don't understand how a racist getting the crap beat out of him by a person of the race he hates helps him become more tolerant of said race.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

We sort of got slightly off track a little, I wasn't really wanting to get into a discussion about what we should do with tedious cretins that knock on your door, (although that can be an entertaining pastime on it's own), I was more hoping that somebody who does this sort of thing might be reading this and offer an explanation of why they do it.

The explanation that, essentially, they are buying their passage to heaven seems a reasonable one so, until a better one is offered, I'll go with that.

[Skeptical Greg]

Here is a strategy to find out if they want to save you, or save themself .. ( Of course they may want to do both; but which is more important ? )

Ask them if they would be interested in your salvation, if by bringing you to God, they would lose their own salvation..

[bluess]

Here is a strategy to find out if they want to save you, or save themself .. ( Of course they may want to do both; but which is more important ? )

Ask them if they would be interested in your salvation, if by bringing you to God, they would lose their own salvation..

Diogenes, you're brilliant.

[billydkid]

Maybe one of the religiously inclined can answer this.

Religious fanatics, of all shapes and sizes, seem almost desperate to try and convince me that I should believe in their various fantasies. Why? I don't insist, nor do I have any interest in, trying to convince them of what I believe. I've never had any atheists knock on my door and try to convince me that supernatural powers are a crock. I can't help but get the feeling that, deep down, they are are so very insecure that they need to convince others of their delusions in order to bolster their own beliefs.

If you want to believe the universe is controlled by some variety of god(s), (or mystical green giraffes for that matter), great, good for you, but why so desperate to convince me?

I think belief systems such as religion give the universe a form and sets out parameters for our lives and I think in that sense it makes life easier to live. It prevents you from having to face the hard questions. If you don't know the answers to the difficult questions, you make them up. All I can say good about religion and other non-rational belief systems is that they help get a lot of people through the night. Me, painful as it is, I am stuck with having believe in the truth of things in as much as that truth is discernable.

[logical muse]

Did you also buy your father's saying, "This hurts me much more than it hurts you."???
Dann, you misunderstood. I never said I bought it, and your analogy makes no sense. I resent your accusation. You know nothing of me and my father, so I'll ask you to kindly refrain from making these kinds of remarks.

No, it isn't! The cure for that kind of despair and suffering is easily administered and very, very cheap! But do they want it? Do they accept it when you tell them how anguished you are at their suffering? Are they so willing to help you that they'll as much as contemplate accepting the cure you offer them? I mean, they only want what's good for you, don't they?
Again, you misunderstand. It's not adversarial.