Just when you thought someone was reasonable...

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I've been having a long email exchange with a woman who got in contact with me because of my work on the Evj evolution simulator (http://www.lecb.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/papers/ev/evj/). She had some objections to the model, but we never managed to home in on what they were, other than the standard objection of not enough time for natural evolution to occur. She was a fairly reasonable person and even resulted in our adding two new features to the Evj to-do list.

So today I received this message:

Just to end this long discussion (sorry, but you
failed to be any convincing, and I am left with the
impression that you have rather faith in evolution):

I don’t remember well, but Criss Angel once explained
to some audience how he was doing the demonstrations.
He said something like this: You heard that there is
an energy surrounding and filling everything. Well,
some people (like him) have a special ability to tap
into this energy and do things that normally cannot be
done. Anyway, when I heard that explanation, I
immediately thought about the Star Wars movies, since
that was the idea he was conveying. Perhaps you know
that the philosophy of Star Wars (about the Jedi
Knights around whom the rest of the futuristic high
tech SF themes gravitate) is that of witchcraft.
(Witches greet each other with: The Force be with
you!) Witchcraft is on the rise in our modern society,
and you can see that the young are especially targeted
(noticed what an impact the Harry Potter series is
having worldwide?). Real magic is witchcraft, and not
everybody is involved with it, whereas tricks are
available just about to anyone who wants to learn how
to do them. You should see how Criss was looking
before he started his public shows -- like a member of
a satanic group. Even now he uses plenty of occult
symbols, along with a cross (!). These people avoid to
be seen as being involved with the supernatural, and
that’s why they mix regular tricks with real magic and
offer a mixed message. If they admitted that they were
in fact witches, that could make people wake up and
reject them, and so their plan to bring witchcraft
(back) into our culture could be hindered. That’s the
reason why magicians involved with real magic don’t
tell... But if you want to ignore the biblical
warnings about these and other occult demonic
manifestations, and believe magicians’ lies because
they allow you and the rest of the scientific
community some (false, since you can’t explain real
magic) peace of mind -- because all is just natural --
feel free to do so.

Otherwise, I think you believe that the Apollo
missions landed men on the Moon. I strongly believe
the opposite.

I wish you all the best!
I guess sometimes there are deeper beliefs than what the conversation brings to light at first.

~~ Paul

[Matilda]

Wow.

Was she really saying that magicians are witches?

[TobiasTheViking]

I guess sometimes there are deeper beliefs than what the conversation brings to light at first.

*holds Paul C*

There there.

*comforts Paul C*

Sincerely
Tobias.

[kmortis]

Paul,
Is that one of those exchanges that left you feeling stupider than when you started? The last letter, that is...

witches..greet with "Let the Force be with you"??? WHat happend to Blessed Be?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Actually, that message aleviated some of my frustration at the conversation. I now understand that there was no way she was going to express any comfort with the Evj model. It just isn't going to be okay with her no matter what.

I pointed her at badastronomy.com for the moon hoax thing. I wonder what she'll say about that?

~~ Paul

[Kiless]

I pointed her at badastronomy.com for the moon hoax thing. I wonder what she'll say about that?

Probably implode. See if she posts on their bulletin board about Jedis.... at least you were polite to her and she in return. :)

[Z]

OMFG

As a Witch myself, I guarantee you that, AFAIK, no serious coven greets each other with 'May the Force Be With You'. Some non-serious covens might, though.

They say 'it takes one to know one' - that girl is one Frito short of a chili pie...

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Zaay, I'll tell her that I consulted with a witch and he doesn't think that greeting is used.

~~ Paul

Edited to add: Of course, she may ask for your name so she can have you eliminated.

[Hutch]

I pointed her at badastronomy.com for the moon hoax thing. I wonder what she'll say about that?

~~ Paul

Let her post at the BAUT Bulletin Board...they'll diabuse her of the Moon Hoax nothions fast enough..or at least until she starts the witches and Jedi stuff, in which case the BA will show her the door..

Oops, Kiless beat me to it...nevermind (trying to make it to 2000 posts before TAM4)

[LibraryLady]

Just when you thought someone was reasonable...

Oh, gosh, this happens to me all the time. Patron walks up to the reference desk (also the start of innumerable librarian jokes) and begins to ask a question that seems fairly sane and on target, then as the transaction continues I begin to realize that this person is totally insane.

My favorite was when I was in the Fine Arts department. A nicely dressed woman asked an interesting question about architecture, which we proceded to research. After we exhausted the book resources, I suggested we turn to the Internet, upon which she explained gently that she could not use because of the evil spirits that inhabit our computers.

This actually explains a lot about our computer system. :rolleyes:

[Soapy Sam]

Zaayrdragon- clear something up for me, will you.

If you are male (which I've always supposed, though it can be hard to know on the Internet), then why do you call yourself a witch and not a wizard?

(The only witches / wizards I'm familiar with are Terry Pratchett's. Is there a difference of method like in Discworld, rather than just a gender difference?)

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Today I received this:
God is our only hope, and each rational person should
strive to understand God’s purpose with us. If you
truly desire to know the truth about our existence
from all your heart, God will help you to find him.
Otherwise, you might never have any personal
experience to convince you that God exists, before it
will be too late, because there can be no constraint
love. You have only this life to choose what you truly
want.
If only I'd known, I could have avoided wasting so much time ...

~~ Paul

[Ceritus]

Zaayrdragon- clear something up for me, will you.

If you are male (which I've always supposed, though it can be hard to know on the Internet), then why do you call yourself a witch and not a wizard?

(The only witches / wizards I'm familiar with are Terry Pratchett's. Is there a difference of method like in Discworld, rather than just a gender difference?)


Why wizard and not warlock?

[Ladewig]

OMFG

As a Witch myself, I guarantee you that, AFAIK, no serious coven greets each other with 'May the Force Be With You'. Some non-serious covens might, though.

They say 'it takes one to know one' - that girl is one Frito short of a chili pie...


She believes professional illusionists use occult forces in their performances and that mankind never went to the moon. It would take more than a single Frito to complete her chili pie. She is a good 2 1/2 cups of Fritos (and a chopped onion and probably a cup or two of chili) short of a chili pie.

[Z]

Zaayrdragon- clear something up for me, will you.

If you are male (which I've always supposed, though it can be hard to know on the Internet), then why do you call yourself a witch and not a wizard?

(The only witches / wizards I'm familiar with are Terry Pratchett's. Is there a difference of method like in Discworld, rather than just a gender difference?)

lol

I hear that all the time, actually.

There is no hard and fast rule for self-designation in Wicca. Accurately speaking, I am a Wiccan Priest, First Degree. By common parlance, Wiccans are referred to as Witches, probably deriving from the earlier term Wicce (which is pronounced like witch).

Male witches are just that - male witches.

The title of 'wizard' is generally one used by Ceremonial Mages - those strange folks who seem to be a cross between Wiccans and Masons. They rely heavily on symbology, exact ritual structure, precise education, etc. They make wild claims about summoning ancient spirits, making deals with devils, and the like. And while 'wizard' might just as well be a good term as 'witch', the connotations it carries (of long beards and magic wands and turning people into amphibians) is too much baggage for me.

Granted, 'witch' carries baggage all its own - including the gender issue - but among Wiccans, 'witch' tends to mean, simply, a 'follower of Wicca' - much as 'Christian' means 'follower of Christ'.

'Warlock' is an altogether unacceptable term, as it means 'Oathbreaker', and is one of the worst things you can call a Wiccan.

I like to use 'shaman' because of the specifics of my ancestry, training, and beliefs; but as I have never been formally initiated as a Shaman, I don't make that claim when it might carry any weight.

Hope that clears things up a bit!

[Z]

Why wizard and not warlock?

'Warlock' means 'Oathbreaker' and is insulting and offensive to Wiccans.

[Cleon]

'Warlock' means 'Oathbreaker' and is insulting and offensive to Wiccans.

Really? Didn't know that. Why does "warlock" mean "oathbreaker?" In what language?

[Z]

Really? Didn't know that. Why does "warlock" mean "oathbreaker?" In what language?

In Old English, actually... though there is much discussion over whether Wiccans should be offended by the term.

Here's a link: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=define%3Awarlock

You can browse a bit for yourself. It seems the term may have originally referred to a warrior of some sort, one who led a short and violent life; but sometime during the Middle Ages the term was re-defined into the form of 'traitor' and 'oathbreaker' - presumably, to devil the term and steer Christians away from such people.

That has been and still is the in-use definition for Warlock, save among those unfamiliar with the term, who only hear terms like 'wizard' and 'warlock' tossed about in fantasy books or in cartoons. However, a few male witches still insist on it being a valid term - I suppose, so that they don't have to use their Sister's term, and so they don't have to resort to 'wizard'.

[kmortis]

The title of 'wizard' is generally one used by Ceremonial Mages - those strange folks who seem to be a cross between Wiccans and Masons. They rely heavily on symbology, exact ritual structure, precise education, etc. They make wild claims about summoning ancient spirits, making deals with devils, and the like. And while 'wizard' might just as well be a good term as 'witch', the connotations it carries (of long beards and magic wands and turning people into amphibians) is too much baggage for me.


To be fair tho, Zaay, Ceremonial Mages pre-existed Gerald Gardner. In fact our dear ol' pervert borrowed quite a bit from the OTO, the A*A* and the Golden Dawn, all CM groups.

Other than that, quite a nice summary.

[Belz...]

OMFG

As a Witch myself, I guarantee you that, AFAIK, no serious coven greets each other with 'May the Force Be With You'. Some non-serious covens might, though.

They say 'it takes one to know one' - that girl is one Frito short of a chili pie...

Can you cast fireballs ?

[Z]

To be fair tho, Zaay, Ceremonial Mages pre-existed Gerald Gardner. In fact our dear ol' pervert borrowed quite a bit from the OTO, the A*A* and the Golden Dawn, all CM groups.

Other than that, quite a nice summary.

Well, yes... Gardnerian Wicca is a descendent of such groups... but Wicca predated Gardner (though not the most popularly known forms - only family traditions).

[Z]

Can you cast fireballs ?

Actually, I'm rather gifted with fireballs, breathing flame, fire eating, turning bonfires blue or green or even purple (rather tricky, purple).

Then again, I could do all that before I started learning about Wicca. Fireballs have a lot less to do with magic than they do with Bicardi 151. :p

[LW]

It seems the term may have originally referred to a warrior of some sort, one who led a short and violent life; but sometime during the Middle Ages the term was re-defined into the form of 'traitor' and 'oathbreaker' - presumably, to devil the term and steer Christians away from such people.

According to OED:


[Oathbreaker] seems to have been the original sense of the present word, but the special application to the Devil (either as a rebel, or a deceiver) was already in OE. the leading sense. The applications to sorcerers, with especial reference to the power of assuming inhuman shapes, and to monsters (esp. serpents), appear to be developments, partly due to Scriptural language, of the sense ‘devil’.


It derives the etymology from words 'vaer' (covenant), 'wara' (truth), and 'varar' (vow).

[Ossai]

Belz...
Can you cast fireballs ?
No, witches select their spells from the cleric list, concentrating mainly on plant, animal, healing, sun and weather. :wink:

Psst. :) I don’t think he’s made it to 5th level yet either, but it may be bad form to bring up. :duck:

[kmortis]

Well, yes... Gardnerian Wicca is a descendent of such groups... but Wicca predated Gardner (though not the most popularly known forms - only family traditions).

Personally, I like Janet Farrar (formerly Stewart and Janet Farrar). She's just a neat person. I have the only (that I know of) Special Discordian version of the Witches Bible Compleat. :D

In her honor, I started the Farrarian version of Wicca. All the priests wear red robes, talk REALLY fast and are obviously "compensating" for something. ;)

[Belz...]

No, witches select their spells from the cleric list, concentrating mainly on plant, animal, healing, sun and weather.

I was under the impression that witches were primarily using the WOO domain.

[Z]

Personally, I like Janet Farrar (formerly Stewart and Janet Farrar). She's just a neat person. I have the only (that I know of) Special Discordian version of the Witches Bible Compleat. :D

In her honor, I started the Farrarian version of Wicca. All the priests wear red robes, talk REALLY fast and are obviously "compensating" for something. ;)

Man, I'd love to see that. My wife can't stand Discordians, but that's just because she used to eat hot dog buns fairly regularly. Oh, and she has some lingering respect for order and reason. Pheh.

[Belz...]

Man, I'd love to see that. My wife can't stand Discordians, but that's just because she used to eat hot dog buns fairly regularly. Oh, and she has some lingering respect for order and reason. Pheh.

Doesn't your signature say "nothing unreal exists", or are you just kidding ?

[Z]

Doesn't your signature say "nothing unreal exists", or are you just kidding ?

Trekkie.... hel-LO!

Good god, what did you people watch growing up?

Fine - do you want me to change my sig to 'wherever you go, there you are'?

[Belz...]

Trekkie.... hel-LO!

Good god, what did you people watch growing up?

Fine - do you want me to change my sig to 'wherever you go, there you are'?

That was not the nature of my question. I know whence the quote came.

[Piscivore]

My wife can't stand Discordians, but that's just because she used to eat hot dog buns fairly regularly. Oh, and she has some lingering respect for order and reason. Pheh.

Oh, she'll like me, I'm even mostly housebroken. Mostly.

Tell her I also have a lingering respect for order and reason. The former is how anchovy pizzas are made to be delivered and the latter, in conjunction with "I'm always hungry for anchovy pizza" is why they are delivered.

If I ever leave, I'll even buy her one of those little air freshener cone thingees to help clear out the lingering odour of anchovy. Although I can't imagine why one would want to do so, it seems to be a recurring request amongst my various hosts.

[kmortis]

Oh, she'll like me, I'm even mostly housebroken. Mostly.

Tell her I also have a lingering respect for order and reason. The former is how anchovy pizzas are made to be delivered and the latter, in conjunction with "I'm always hungry for anchovy pizza" is why they are delivered.

If I ever leave, I'll even buy her one of those little air freshener cone thingees to help clear out the lingering odour of anchovy. Although I can't imagine why one would want to do so, it seems to be a recurring request amongst my various hosts.

GAMN YOU Piscivore!!! We can't be agreeing, what would St. Mung say? :sigh:

[Z]

That was not the nature of my question. I know whence the quote came.

Then I confess I am misunderstanding the nature of your question... Are you suggesting that, being Wiccan, I violate the principle of my signature? That I believe in things which are unreal and therefore non-existant?

If you want to get right down to the core of my beliefs, I don't believe that Divinity is unreal, nor do I disbelieve in the psychological and social properties of ritualism and ceremony. I remain skeptical of many aspects of the Pagan faiths, but still find I can comfortably practice my faith without violating those principles of skepticism which I choose to employ.

That being said, I tend toward the pseudo-sceptic nature of believing in things UNTIL they are disproven, as opposed to skepticism's not believing in things UNTIL they are proven. Perhaps it is just that I enjoy having something to believe in, or perhaps it's entertaining - like LARPing - but there it is.

As such, I stand by my sig - Nothing unreal exists. But let me add - much of what exists may not be understood, in full, by we mere humans.

[Z]

Oh, she'll like me, I'm even mostly housebroken. Mostly.

Tell her I also have a lingering respect for order and reason. The former is how anchovy pizzas are made to be delivered and the latter, in conjunction with "I'm always hungry for anchovy pizza" is why they are delivered.

If I ever leave, I'll even buy her one of those little air freshener cone thingees to help clear out the lingering odour of anchovy. Although I can't imagine why one would want to do so, it seems to be a recurring request amongst my various hosts.

I am not among those offended at the odor of anchovies, nor for that matter of the odor of tobacco smoke. I dislike the lingering odor of unbroken housepets, mainly because I haven't had one in about a decade. The odor of pickled herring must go, though... no offense to those who enjoy such a delicacy.

The odors that most offend me, though, are the perfumes and scented candles and colognes and eux de toilets and such - these artificial scents laden with Bob-knows-what... they make me itch inside. I'd rather be trapped in an elevator with the entire Mod staff, minus deodorant, on a hot July day in Buenos Aires with no A.C., with Darat's armpits at nose level - after a long diet of Kimchee, Garlic Bagels, and Sauerkraut - than spend a moment in the Perfumes department of the local Mall department stores.

[luchog]

'Warlock' means 'Oathbreaker' and is insulting and offensive to Wiccans.
However, many of the Satanists (non-LaVeyan) of my aquaintances do use that term to describe themselves; but they're mostly a bunch of immature a$$h0les with serious emotional problems.

I have friends and aquaintances from all over the neo-pagan, ceremonial magic (I refuse to use that retarded Crowley affectation), LaVeyan satanism, chaos magic, Wicca/witchcraft, etc., spectrum.

I tend to lean toward Discordian myself, mostly because it's funnier than most religions; but partly because, no matter how much order I try to create order in my life, the chaos always seems to have the upper hand so I might as well go with the flow.

[Z]

However, many of the Satanists (non-LaVeyan) of my aquaintances do use that term to describe themselves; but they're mostly a bunch of immature a$$h0les with serious emotional problems.

I have friends and aquaintances from all over the neo-pagan, ceremonial magic (I refuse to use that retarded Crowley affectation), LaVeyan satanism, chaos magic, Wicca/witchcraft, etc., spectrum.

I tend to lean toward Discordian myself, mostly because it's funnier than most religions; but partly because, no matter how much order I try to create order in my life, the chaos always seems to have the upper hand so I might as well go with the flow.

Oh, what, you mean 'magick' as opposed to stage magic? Yeah, that one bugs the fire out of me, too. Though I do catch myself using it sometimes.

I've even caught some feminist groups referring to 'wytches'... like the letter 'I' has some masculine meaning to it...

Ah well - s'pose it can't be helped.

I love the whole Discordian principle, and revel in reading the endless works of Discordians everywhere. On a related note, I keep wondering when we'll get another Emperor of America... I missed out on the Edward Norton I phenomenon.

fnord

The funny thing is, I've had Wiccans near me bothered that I pronounce Samhain as 'Sow-when', rather than 'Sam-hane' - though I've read that the former is closer to its proper pronunciation than the latter. Well - language is always evolving, or so they say...

[Piscivore]

I am not among those offended at the odor of anchovies, nor for that matter of the odor of tobacco smoke. I dislike the lingering odor of unbroken housepets, mainly because I haven't had one in about a decade. The odor of pickled herring must go, though... no offense to those who enjoy such a delicacy.

The odors that most offend me, though, are the perfumes and scented candles and colognes and eux de toilets and such - these artificial scents laden with Bob-knows-what... they make me itch inside. I'd rather be trapped in an elevator with the entire Mod staff, minus deodorant, on a hot July day in Buenos Aires with no A.C., with Darat's armpits at nose level - after a long diet of Kimchee, Garlic Bagels, and Sauerkraut - than spend a moment in the Perfumes department of the local Mall department stores.

Great! Me too! I'll be over say... sixish? :D

[Belz...]

As such, I stand by my sig - Nothing unreal exists. But let me add - much of what exists may not be understood, in full, by we mere humans.

I see.

However, "nothing unreal exists" is somewhat misleading, because its self-evident. Anyone will agree to that, and then claim that their particular set of beliefs are not unreal, and therefore exist.

And, might I add, even if it clearly wasn't your intention, that I'm slightly insulted by the phrase "mere humans", as though we're weak-minded and incapable of understanding the "true" nature of the universe. I think we've demonstrated quite clearly, so far, that we are QUITE capable of understanding pretty much everything.

As it stands, however, I don't believe in anything that would violate the laws of physics as we understand them, until such time as someone can show me that that understanding is false. This includes magic, gods, spirits, etc.

[Z]

I see.

However, "nothing unreal exists" is somewhat misleading, because its self-evident. Anyone will agree to that, and then claim that their particular set of beliefs are not unreal, and therefore exist.

And it is their job, therefore, to prove the existence thereof, if they want to make a solid claim of it. Since I prefer to say that I believe something exists, I reduce the responsibility of proof and instead rest on my laurels until someone DISproves my beliefs - which I am always open for.

And, might I add, even if it clearly wasn't your intention, that I'm slightly insulted by the phrase "mere humans", as though we're weak-minded and incapable of understanding the "true" nature of the universe. I think we've demonstrated quite clearly, so far, that we are QUITE capable of understanding pretty much everything.

As compared to the rest of the known animal kingdom, sure, we're pretty much top dog; however, there's a chance - however slight - that we're not the top dogs of the universe, and there might be a hell of a lot we don't understand. Heck, show me that Jane Doe has half a chance of understanding what QM is all about, or that John Smith can define exactly what 'consciousness' really is, and then we'll talk. The existence of a few exceptional beings does not elevate the human race to the level of genius, I'm afraid.

As it stands, however, I don't believe in anything that would violate the laws of physics as we understand them, until such time as someone can show me that that understanding is false. This includes magic, gods, spirits, etc.

And, I suppose, when new information is brought in, you simply update your understanding of those laws to encompass the new-found knowledge, correct? That would make sense, after all.. and demonstrates that such knowledge is not final, and can be improved at any time.

As for 'magic', I think that's a lovely word that covers far too much ground. For example, even as a Wiccan Priest, I don't believe that I can conjure things out of thin air, cast fire from my fingertips (without some preparation), ride on broomsticks, or make small blue imps dance the Can-Can. That's the magic of fairy stories and myths. But there's a lot that people call 'magic' that works out to folk psychology - in fact, when you get right down to it, most of the practices within Wicca aren't about casting spells on other people, places, or things, but on changing your own modes of thought. Like a big visualization exercise, of sorts. Nothing violating the LoP there.

As for 'spirits', I remain open-minded on the subject. I've seen a few manifestations I have no plausible explanation for, but I'm not saying what these things actually were, because I don't know. But I'm sure that, whatever it was, didn't violate the LoP.

As for 'gods', IMHO, there is one Divinity with many forms. But my exact belief in such Divinity renders such Divinity as being the creator of, and therefore beyond the bounds of, the LoP. Perhaps such Divinity cannot exist, in purely divine form, within THIS universe; perhaps not. We can only speculate. But one thing is certain, to me: MOST gods, as described, cannot exist; but that doesn't apply to ALL gods. Especially of the Deist variety.

Otherwise, I'm happy to believe in things that don't outright violate known science. And I'm happy there are plenty of you who don't believe in anything, without sufficient evidence. It's nice to be here with you guys.

[Belz...]

And it is their job, therefore, to prove the existence thereof, if they want to make a solid claim of it. Since I prefer to say that I believe something exists, I reduce the responsibility of proof and instead rest on my laurels until someone DISproves my beliefs - which I am always open for.

Wouldn't that amount to shifting the burden of proof ?

As compared to the rest of the known animal kingdom, sure, we're pretty much top dog; however, there's a chance - however slight - that we're not the top dogs of the universe, and there might be a hell of a lot we don't understand.

May. However, "we, mere humans" pretty much assumes that we don't know anything.

Heck, show me that Jane Doe has half a chance of understanding what QM is all about, or that John Smith can define exactly what 'consciousness' really is, and then we'll talk. The existence of a few exceptional beings does not elevate the human race to the level of genius, I'm afraid.

That's unfair. As a whole, our species has progressed tremendously.

[...] most of the practices within Wicca aren't about casting spells on other people, places, or things, but on changing your own modes of thought. Like a big visualization exercise, of sorts. Nothing violating the LoP there.

No, but by that definition Wiccan doesn't do anything at all. It's like a tea party.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I believe our conversaton is over:

Paul, you are hopeless, and so is this discussion.
Adieu!

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Belz...

No, witches select their spells from the cleric list, concentrating mainly on plant, animal, healing, sun and weather. :wink:

Psst. :) I don’t think he’s made it to 5th level yet either, but it may be bad form to bring up. :duck:

Yeah if you want to cast fireballs with your witch, your gonna need to "multi-class". Assuming you are human this is going to be difficult.

LLH

[Belz...]

Yeah if you want to cast fireballs with your witch, your gonna need to "multi-class". Assuming you are human this is going to be difficult.

LLH

Not difficult, but not particularily powerful, just diverse.

[delphi_ote]

Clearly someone is hopeless here...

[Z]

Sorry for not getting back sooner, but this server move seems to have bumped me out of the fora for a while... it's still pretty buggy.

Wouldn't that amount to shifting the burden of proof ?

Yes, perhaps it is. What I'm saying, to clarify, is that I'm not claiming these things are true, only that I believe in them. If there's no fact to counter that belief, I'll keep on believing; if a counterfactual is offered, I'll accept that, drop that belief, and move on.

May. However, "we, mere humans" pretty much assumes that we don't know anything.

Only if you want to make that assumption.

That's unfair. As a whole, our species has progressed tremendously.

And I agree. But that doesn't change what I said, or the point I was making.

No, but by that definition Wiccan doesn't do anything at all. It's like a tea party.

Or like a religion - which is all it really is. 'Magic' works about as well as 'prayer', really - in fact, in many traditions, the two words are synonymous.

[Belz...]

Clearly someone is hopeless here...

You wouldn't by any chance be referring to me, would you ?

[Belz...]

Sorry for not getting back sooner, but this server move seems to have bumped me out of the fora for a while... it's still pretty buggy.

No excuses, mortal! Now you must sacrifice at least... er... 17 virgins women to me (preferably between 18 and 25. And ... come to think of it. Don't kill them. Just ship them to me. I'll do the killing... yes!)

Yes, perhaps it is. What I'm saying, to clarify, is that I'm not claiming these things are true, only that I believe in them. If there's no fact to counter that belief, I'll keep on believing; if a counterfactual is offered, I'll accept that, drop that belief, and move on.

Good, good. I respect that. And may I ask what manner of evidence would convince you ?

Only if you want to make that assumption.

Then what did you mean by "mere" humans ?

Or like a religion - which is all it really is. 'Magic' works about as well as 'prayer', really - in fact, in many traditions, the two words are synonymous.

And we all know how well prayer works. Isn't there a trial on this, right now ?

[delphi_ote]

You wouldn't by any chance be referring to me, would you ?

Sorry, no. I was talking about Paul's correspondent. She is most certainly hopeless!

(That's the second time today that I've confused a poster I like into thinking I was insulting them. What's my deal?)

[Belz...]

(That's the second time today that I've confused a poster I like into thinking I was insulting them. What's my deal?)

I think it's that angry look your avatar has :)

[delphi_ote]

I think it's that angry look your avatar has :)

MY avatar looks angry? ;)

[bob_kark]

MY avatar looks angry? ;)

Somewhere between angry and impatient. It looks like you're talking to a woo salesman.

[delphi_ote]

Somewhere between angry and impatient. It looks like you're talking to a woo salesman.

Yes, but I hardly look angry when compare to a demon with horns and a gaping maw!

[Z]

No excuses, mortal! Now you must sacrifice at least... er... 17 virgins women to me (preferably between 18 and 25. And ... come to think of it. Don't kill them. Just ship them to me. I'll do the killing... yes!)

Are there that many virgins of that age group left in the English-speaking world???

Good, good. I respect that. And may I ask what manner of evidence would convince you ?

That depends on the claim being made, right?

For example, I believe in a Divine essence - which created the Universe within itself. However, given the absolute lack of any interpersonal interaction, I have to maintain a Deist stance - that this 'deity' is of the completely non-personal, non-interactive sort.

I also believe in dreamwalking - the ability to move from one person's dream to another. When science comes up with a reasonable explanation that explains both MY experience and the other dreamer's experience, aside from coincidence, I'll accept that explanation.

A number of the things I believe in are essentially non-falsifiable - a safe if somewhat cowardly position to hold. For example, I believe in powerful spirits that can only interact with the 'real' world via imagination, intuition, and spiritual connection (why powerful, then?). Until science can move boldly into such realms, I feel that such beliefs are essentially unfalsifiable.

On the other hand, I don't believe in the power of homeopathy as a medicine, though I do have faith in the practice IF the practicioner is making a claim that this is a faith-based practice (which most do not). I don't have faith in most self-proclaimed psychics, considering their hit-to-miss ratio is no better than a cold reading, they are so often outright wrong, and not one of them has ever called me first. I don't believe in most forms of astronomy for a number of reasons, though for my own part, I usually fit the Taurus mode perfectly.

Then what did you mean by "mere" humans ?

I mean the semi-evolved apes who have invented technology and are pretty certainly doomed to be replaced by a more fully evolved species who will improve our technology a thousandfold.

And we all know how well prayer works. Isn't there a trial on this, right now ?

Bingo.

Prayer and spells work on a folk-psychological, personal level. The only real difference between these and a strong self-affirmation is that there's less chance of distrust, as most people distrust themselves to some degree, but are willing (for whatever reason) to trust in gods and magic. The faith portion translates to a small measure of assurance, I suppose.

[Cleon]

I don't believe in most forms of astronomy for a number of reasons, though for my own part, I usually fit the Taurus mode perfectly.


Um...Could you perhaps be meaning astroloy?

[Z]

Um...Could you perhaps be meaning astroloy?

Um... yes, I could, in fact, perhaps be meaning astroloy. Or perhaps astrology. It's hard for me to tell which.

:blush:

But there it is, for all to see:

"Pluto doesn't really exist! Stars are just pinpoints of light, stuck in a black velvet covering! It's true, I tell you!"

Guffaw.

OK, allow me to correctify meself:

"I don't believe in most forms of astrology for a number of reasons, though for my own part, I usually fit the Taurus mode perfectly."

I believe in astronomy. I am a moron, however... :D

[Cleon]

Um... yes, I could, in fact, perhaps be meaning astroloy. Or perhaps astrology. It's hard for me to tell which.

:blush:


OK, I think that's a big fat D'OH for both of us. :D

[Z]

Is there such a thing as a 'small, skinny D'OH?'

[Nex]

Is there such a thing as a 'small, skinny D'OH?'Yeah -- that's what they make pasta out of.




*ba-dum CHING!*

[Beerina]

'Warlock' is an altogether unacceptable term, as it means 'Oathbreaker', and is one of the worst things you can call a Wiccan.


From an old Emo Phillips routine:

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. I immediately ran over and said "Stop! Don't do it!"

"Why shouldn't I?" he said.

I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"

"Like what?"

"Well ... are you religious or atheist?"

"Religious."

"Me too! Are you Christian or Jewish?"

"Christian."

"Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

"Protestant."

"Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

"Baptist."

"Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

"Baptist Church of God."

"Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"

"Reformed Baptist Church of God."

"Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?"

"Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!"

To which I said, "Die, you heretic scumbag!" and pushed him off.