The Great Commission

[kmortis]

So, I was out doing some yard work (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1260337#post1260337), when the thought occued to me...where from did the concept of the Great Commission come from? I mean, I can't think of another religion that has an evangilstic zeal quite like Christianity (and it's resultant flavors, so Mormons and JWs fall under the general Christian label for the purposes of this discussion).

Ok, ok, there are some that "evangalize by force". Islam is a good examle of this, but they don't, as a general rule, come a'knocking.

So, how'd this get into the mindset of Christians? I know that Jesus was the one who told his followers to go forth and spread the word...but where'd he get the idea?

The one tought that came to mind was Pax Romana. IOW, the imperalist notion that Roman = right. Could not Jesus have picked up this concept, and either consciously or unconsciously decided that that's the right form for a religion as well?

[Iacchus]

It was the House of Israel, and their God.

[kmortis]

It was the House of Israel, and their God.

>Blink< What? No, seriously, what?

Do you even TRY to make sense anymore?

[Iacchus]

You know what the good shepherd does don't you?

[Ryokan]

Ok, ok, there are some that "evangalize by force". Islam is a good examle of this, but they don't, as a general rule, come a'knocking.

Believe me, when my country was brought into Christendom, it was not by doorknockers, but by swordsmen.

[Amapola]

You know what the good shepherd does don't you?

Well, in this part of the world anyway, good shepherds don't go around trying to steal other people's sheep behind their backs. If they were to be so foolish as to try that, the Brand Inspector would be on their doorstep.

[Iacchus]

Well, in this part of the world anyway, good shepherds don't go around trying to steal other people's sheep behind their backs. If they were to be so foolish as to try that, the Brand Inspector would be on their doorstep.Yes, but He was wondering where Jesus got the idea from. And I was merely suggesting that it seemed to coincide with their history ... of the good shepherd gathering up His flocks.

[Tricky]

You know what the good shepherd does don't you?
He controlls, fleeces, then eventually kills and eats his flock.

[kmortis]

Yes, but He was wondering where Jesus got the idea from. And I was merely suggesting that it seemed to coincide with their history ... of the good shepherd gathering up His flocks.

Except, that's the ananlogy that JC was using to describe the GC. I don't think it's where he got the idea from.

Believe me, when my country was brought into Christendom, it was not by doorknockers, but by swordsmen.

You're from Scandinavia, yes? What happened a lot of times in the hinterlands (ie outside the Roman Empire) was that the loact tribes would take slaves from the areas that they battled. Some of these slaves were Christians. Theses slaves would be allowed to keep practicing their religion (usually) and a small Christian communty would form. After the conversion of Constantine, bishops would be sent out to minister to these small (and sometimes not so small) Christain communities.

Now, this is not to say that "evangalism by force" never happened; I'd be a fool to argue that, it's just that it wasn't the only way.

But this is all off the main question. Where'd JC (or his handlers, for the more cynical amongst us) get the idea from?

[Iacchus]

Except, that's the ananlogy that JC was using to describe the GC. I don't think it's where he got the idea from.And are you not referring to the part in the Bible where He tells his followers to go out and gather the lost sheep?

[kmortis]

And are you not referring to the part in the Bible where He tells his followers to go out and gather the lost sheep?

Well, that's one of the places where he talks about the GC.

The Great Commission
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

From here (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=matthew%2028;&version=31;)

But that's the main place. No shepherd. No flock. Just go and convert.

[Ryokan]

You're from Scandinavia, yes? What happened a lot of times in the hinterlands (ie outside the Roman Empire) was that the loact tribes would take slaves from the areas that they battled. Some of these slaves were Christians. Theses slaves would be allowed to keep practicing their religion (usually) and a small Christian communty would form. After the conversion of Constantine, bishops would be sent out to minister to these small (and sometimes not so small) Christain communities.

Not quite.

There was a king, King Olav, at around year 1000 who decided that Norway should become a Christian nation (he had converted to Christianity in England). The Norwegians, however, didn't really want to convert to Christianity and lose their native religion, so a bloody civil war ensued, where the population was given the choice of converting or die.

King Olav was later canonized, and is now known as Saint Olav. His royal nickname was King Olav the Holy.

[kmortis]

Not quite.

There was a king, King Olav, at around year 1000 who decided that Norway should become a Christian nation (he had converted to Christianity in England). The Norwegians, however, didn't really want to convert to Christianity and lose their native religion, so a bloody civil war ensued, where the population was given the choice of converting or die.

King Olav was later canonized, and is now known as Saint Olav. His royal nickname was King Olav the Holy.


Sound's a touch like Iceland. Something about that Odin that's hard to give up, eh?

[Iacchus]

Well, that's one of the places where he talks about the GC.

From here (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=matthew%2028;&version=31;)

But that's the main place. No shepherd. No flock. Just go and convert.Well this is the part that I'm most familiar with ...

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.

12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.

13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. ~ Matthew 10:5-14 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=9)

[kmortis]

Well this is the part that I'm most familiar with ...


5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.

12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.

13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. ~ Matthew 10:5-14

There's the other one. Ok, yesh, that does fit in as well. You can still see that he's using the shepherd as a metaphore, right?

Where did he get the idea from to begin with?

[Ryokan]

Sound's a touch like Iceland. Something about that Odin that's hard to give up, eh?

Actually, a lot of Norwegians fled to Iceland to escape from Christianity. Iceland wasn't forced into Christendom until some time later, but in many ways managed to keep the old traditions alive.

Odin wasn't worshipped that much, really. The two most commonly worshipped Norse gods were Freya, goddess of fertility and agriculture and Thor, god of strength and war. Odin was the god of chieftains and skalds/bards.

[Iacchus]

Where did he get the idea from to begin with?What, about gathering the lost sheep of Israel? I know there's a lot of reference to King David being a shepherd. This may or may not have been where it began. I don't know?

[kmortis]

Actually, a lot of Norwegians fled to Iceland to escape from Christianity. Iceland wasn't forced into Christendom until some time later, but in many ways managed to keep the old traditions alive.

Odin wasn't worshipped that much, really. The two most commonly worshipped Norse gods were Freya, goddess of fertility and agriculture and Thor, god of strength and war. Odin was the god of chieftains and skalds/bards.

(psst...I know that. But to my knowledge, we don't have anyone on this forum named either Thor or Freya. See the third entry in my sig)

[Ryokan]

(psst...I know that. But to my knowledge, we don't have anyone on this forum named either Thor or Freya. See the third entry in my sig)

Well, you've spelt it wrong. It's Havamal ;)

(Or, to be more precise, Håvamål.)

[drkitten]

Well, you've spelt it wrong. It's Havamal ;)

(Or, to be more precise, Håvamål.)


All right, I'll bite. Who was this Håvamål character, and what else did he write besides those four lines? He sounds like he's worth reading in full....

[Ryokan]

All right, I'll bite. Who was this Håvamål character, and what else did he write besides those four lines? He sounds like he's worth reading in full....

Håvamål means Words from the High One, and it's Odin's speach to mankind.

Final Edit :

There was an error on the link I first supplied, so you couldn't read the entire thing. I found a better link :

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/havamal.html

And here's the Wikipeda article on it :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havamal

[Skeptical Greg]

What, about gathering the lost sheep of Israel? I know there's a lot of reference to King David being a shepherd. This may or may not have been where it began. I don't know?
A lot of people forget ( or ignore ) that Jesus did not intend to save anyone but Jews.. He ( or his followers ) decided to go with the gentiles when the Jew thing didn't work..

[kmortis]

Well, you've spelt it wrong. It's Havamal ;)

(Or, to be more precise, Håvamål.)

Psst...don't tell anyone, it's my canary trap.

[kmortis]

A lot of people forget ( or ignore ) that Jesus did not intend to save anyone but Jews.. He ( or his followers ) decided to go with the gentiles when the Jew thing didn't work..


Ok...now we're getting somewhere.

Couldn't he just have decided that if the Jews (aka God's Special Chosen Few) didn't wanna believe, then ta'hell wif 'em? I mean, he didn't have to infect go and have Peter & Co. spread the word.

Was it just ego, or was he inspired from somewhere?

[Iacchus]

A lot of people forget ( or ignore ) that Jesus did not intend to save anyone but Jews.. He ( or his followers ) decided to go with the gentiles when the Jew thing didn't work..And by "Jews," are you sure you don't mean Zoroastrians? (http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0200PersiaJudaism.html) Because if you look at it in that sense, I'm not sure it would make any difference. What of the three wisemen, who broke the news to Herod, regarding the birth of the son of Ahura Mazda? (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/ahura_mazda.html) Weren't they in fact from the east, or Persia?

[kmortis]

And by "Jews," are you sure you don't mean Zoroastrians? (http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0200PersiaJudaism.html) Because if you look at it in that sense, I'm not sure it would make any difference. What of the three wisemen, who broke the news to Herod, regarding the birth of the son of Ahura Mazda? (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/ahura_mazda.html) Weren't they in fact from the east, or Persia?

Yesh...cause Jews = Zoroastrians/Persians.

:blink::blink:

[Iacchus]

Yesh...cause Jews = Zoroastrians/Persians.

:blink::blink:I didn't say they were Persians, although I believe Zoroastrianism originated in Persia.

[kmortis]

I didn't say they were Persians, although I believe Zoroastrianism originated in Persia.

Not only did it start in Persia, it was the state religion of Persia. Most of the modern-day Zoroastrians are of Persian descent.

Granted, it was more wide spread at one point, but then again, so was the Persian Empire (500 - 400 BC).

However, none of this really has to do with the GC of the Christians, does it?

[Skeptical Greg]

What of the three wisemen.... Where does it say there were three ?

[Iacchus]

Not only did it start in Persia, it was the state religion of Persia. Most of the modern-day Zoroastrians are of Persian descent.

Granted, it was more wide spread at one point, but then again, so was the Persian Empire (500 - 400 BC).

However, none of this really has to do with the GC of the Christians, does it?I'm saying, that as a "Jew," He belonged to a very similar if, not the same religion.

[Iacchus]

Where does it say there were three ?I don't know, guess I'll have to look it up. I believe this is how it's commonly portrayed during Christmas though. If I didn't read it somewhere, this is probably where I got the idea.

[kmortis]

I'm saying, that as a "Jew," He belonged to a very similar if, not the same religion.

In the sense that both Persians and Jews are Semitic people, yesh. But Judiasiam and Zoroastrainism are different enough to not be easily confuzed.

[kmortis]

I don't know, guess I'll have to look it up. I believe this is how it's commonly portrayed during Christmas though. If I didn't read it somewhere, this is probably where I got the idea.

This is understandable, it's a common misconception. No huhu. Only three gifts are ever mentioned, so naturally it is always assumed that only three Magi were there.

[Max560]

He controlls, fleeces, then eventually kills and eats his flock.

Don't forget molests.

[David Swidler]

Persians are Aryan, not Semitic. </another derail>

I once encountered a theory (bandied about in some medieval Jewish sources, I think, but dunno if taken seriously even there) that Paul was actually acting on the orders of the Jewish Sanhedrin the whole time - they perceived the nascent sect as a threat and sent Paul to deflect them, thus the eventual focus on gentiles.

I admit my knowledge of early Christianity is thin, so I'm in no position to judge that assertion. I appeal to the more learned for input.

[kmortis]

Persians are Aryan, not Semitic. </another derail>

I once encountered a theory (bandied about in some medieval Jewish sources, I think, but dunno if taken seriously even there) that Paul was actually acting on the orders of the Jewish Sanhedrin the whole time - they perceived the nascent sect as a threat and sent Paul to deflect them, thus the eventual focus on gentiles.

I admit my knowledge of early Christianity is thin, so I'm in no position to judge that assertion. I appeal to the more learned for input.

They are? Um...ok, that just makes Jew=Zoroastrians even more implausable.

Interesting theory.

[Leif Roar]

Not quite.

There was a king, King Olav, at around year 1000 who decided that Norway should become a Christian nation (he had converted to Christianity in England). The Norwegians, however, didn't really want to convert to Christianity and lose their native religion, so a bloody civil war ensued, where the population was given the choice of converting or die.

King Olav was later canonized, and is now known as Saint Olav. His royal nickname was King Olav the Holy.

That's awfully oversimplified, though. Large sections of the Norwegian population, particularly on the west coast, had converted to Christianity long before this. Olav the Holy was far from the first King who attempted to replace the old Åsa cult with Christianity, and the two sides in the battle at Stiklestad was defined as much by politics and clan as by religion.

Actually, a lot of Norwegians fled to Iceland to escape from Christianity. Iceland wasn't forced into Christendom until some time later, but in many ways managed to keep the old traditions alive.

While it's true that Iceland was colonised by Norwegians who fled Norway, they didn't flee to escape Christianity, but to escape the reach of the Norwegian kings. The population of Iceland occured from around ca 800 to around 950; before there were any attempts in Norway to convert by the sword.

Iceland actually converted to Christianity as the offical religion before Norway did. In the year 1000 the Allting (the Icelandic "parliament") decided by popular vote (despite a heathen majority) that Iceland should be Christian, and blot or other worship of the old gods were forbidden... in public. (Admittedly, there was some sabre-rattling going on from a Norwegian king at the time; but one can question how much force he would actually have been able to bring to bear on Iceland.)

[kmortis]

That's awfully oversimplified, though. Large sections of the Norwegian population, particularly on the west coast, had converted to Christianity long before this. Olav the Holy was far from the first King who attempted to replace the old Åsa cult with Christianity, and the two sides in the battle at Stiklestad was defined as much by politics and clan as by religion.



While it's true that Iceland was colonised by Norwegians who fled Norway, they didn't flee to escape Christianity, but to escape the reach of the Norwegian kings. The population of Iceland occured from around ca 800 to around 950; before there were any attempts in Norway to convert by the sword.

Iceland actually converted to Christianity as the offical religion before Norway did. In the year 1000 the Allting (the Icelandic "parliament") decided by popular vote (despite a heathen majority) that Iceland should be Christian, and blot or other worship of the old gods were forbidden... in public. (Admittedly, there was some sabre-rattling going on from a Norwegian king at the time; but one can question how much force he would actually have been able to bring to bear on Iceland.)

[derail...HEY, I started the thread, I can derail it if I want to, derail it if I want to, derail it if I want to]
I read in The Galdenbok by Stephen Flowers (aka Eldred Thorroson, aka Eldred Flowers aka Rune Woo) that when missionaries first started to try to convert the Icelanders, that the Icelanders decided that they liked the description of Satan better than God, and almost adopted Ol' Nick instead? Any evidence to this? Or just a wandering phantasy from a mystic?[/derail..etc, etc, etc.]