Magic Audiophile Gear

[kevin]

This person has assembled a listing of the worst 'audiophile' products around, including the GSIC-10 Intelligent Chip recently featured around here.

And a replacement volume knob that will only cost you $485 but make your system sound so, so good. because it's made of wood.

http://www.ilikejam.dsl.pipex.com/audiophile.htm

[c4ts]

It's a witch! Burn it!

[TobiasTheCommie]

It's a witch! Burn it!
How do you know it's a witch?

*visor falls down*

[c4ts]

It turned my subwoofer into a newt!

[TobiasTheCommie]

It turned my subwoofer into a newt!
*kicks subwoofer idly*
Seems fine now.

[kevin]

*kicks subwoofer idly*
Seems fine now.

It got better.

[logical muse]

$30,000 for speaker cables....

Nearly 7 grand for a volume knob that improves with a $485 wooden knob...

Don't these people know that all you need to do is to quantumly activate your DNA's frequencies and you'll then be able to hear the music on your CDs energistically? Geeze, some people....

[c4ts]

Or how about some SPECIAL WIRE to make those sound signals travel better?

[Ducky]

:hb:

[alfaniner]

Don't forget the Magic Coatracks!!!

[Starthinker]

Good freaking lavin! I wonder if I can get their customer lists. I'm almost certain I can sell them even better stuff for even higher prices.

[Metullus]

Ultra Tweeters?

[Metullus]

Maybe trainman can tell us how they all work.

Of course, we'd need to trank fowlsound first.

[bruto]

Good freaking lavin! I wonder if I can get their customer lists. I'm almost certain I can sell them even better stuff for even higher prices.

Wood jacketed speaker cables. A guaranteed hit. Two foot sections with gold plugs and sockets at each end. 1259 dollars a section, cheap at the price. Each angle in the route to your speakers will require an angle adapter, which goes for $765.37 for a right hand one, and $923.76 for a left hand one. They differ because of quantum polarity vortices, you know, and lefts are very difficult to align. Each one must be custom tuned at our factory. Longer sections available on special order. to achieve perfect speaker placement some sections may need to be shortened. This can be done for a modest charge of $93 per inch removed. Will substitute Iroko wood for standard oak for a modest 415% surcharge. Sound quality will achieve unprecedented translucency and freedom from flex-cable induced jutter. Not guaranteed against effects of bad feng shui.

[c4ts]

Plus a $1,000 pair of specially treated nanoglass reverberator plates to place several feet away from the speakers to ensure top quality sound!

[Jeff Corey]

Hah! Dirty ripoff Qi bandit messes with Feng Shui All Angled AudioCables. All know that bad audio devils are unable to travels around corners. Just like feng shui bridges must be built at angles, so must audio cables. Special cables are all teak and bamboozle.

[WildCat]

Holy crap! I can glue up some spruce boards (http://www.mother-of-tone.com/acoustic_panel.htm), finish them and charge 200 Euros for a 80cm x 50cm section! Better yet, that company is no longer taking orders because they can't make them fast enough so this is a license to print money!!! Or Euros...

[logical muse]

Time to fess up... :)

When I was in my teens I was seriously into high-end audio systems. I couldn't afford a Linn Sondek turntable but I got the next best thing, a Rega Planar 3. Belt driven, glass platter, all black, all manual (just a power switch). I loved it.

I built my own amps and preamps. The only controls on the preamp were source selector and volume.

I built my own speaker enclosures using software I wrote myself to calculate box volume and port specifications from the Thiele/Small parameters.

There were people I knew that tried to sell me fancy cables and things all those years ago, but even as a gullible and naive 16 year old I didn't fall for it. Maybe I was sceptical because I had a much greater understanding of what really makes a difference to the quality of sound reproduction.

Nothing beats learning enough about the theory (Thiele/Small, etc), and the engineering (slew rate limiting, negative feedback, long-tailed differential pairs, etc etc) to know that the stupid volume knob is not worth fussing over.

[Ducky]

Time to fess up... :)

When I was in my teens I was seriously into high-end audio systems. I couldn't afford a Linn Sondek turntable but I got the next best thing, a Rega Planar 3. Belt driven, glass platter, all black, all manual (just a power switch). I loved it.

I built my own amps and preamps. The only controls on the preamp were source selector and volume.

I built my own speaker enclosures using software I wrote myself to calculate box volume and port specifications from the Thiele/Small parameters.

There were people I knew that tried to sell me fancy cables and things all those years ago, but even as a gullible and naive 16 year old I didn't fall for it. Maybe I was sceptical because I had a much greater understanding of what really makes a difference to the quality of sound reproduction.

Nothing beats learning enough about the theory (Thiele/Small, etc), and the engineering (slew rate limiting, negative feedback, long-tailed differential pairs, etc etc) to know that the stupid volume knob is not worth fussing over.


I just added you to my buddies list for that post.

Well done.

[logical muse]

I just added you to my buddies list for that post.

Well done.
Thanks!

[bruto]

Time to fess up... :)

When I was in my teens I was seriously into high-end audio systems. I couldn't afford a Linn Sondek turntable but I got the next best thing, a Rega Planar 3. Belt driven, glass platter, all black, all manual (just a power switch). I loved it.

I built my own amps and preamps. The only controls on the preamp were source selector and volume.

I built my own speaker enclosures using software I wrote myself to calculate box volume and port specifications from the Thiele/Small parameters.

There were people I knew that tried to sell me fancy cables and things all those years ago, but even as a gullible and naive 16 year old I didn't fall for it. Maybe I was sceptical because I had a much greater understanding of what really makes a difference to the quality of sound reproduction.

Nothing beats learning enough about the theory (Thiele/Small, etc), and the engineering (slew rate limiting, negative feedback, long-tailed differential pairs, etc etc) to know that the stupid volume knob is not worth fussing over.


I go back a little further, back, in fact, to monaural! Did you know that the KT88 tubes in a Dynaco Mark III can be used not only to listen to music, but to roast chestnuts at the same time?

[logical muse]

I go back a little further, back, in fact, to monaural! Did you know that the KT88 tubes in a Dynaco Mark III can be used not only to listen to music, but to roast chestnuts at the same time?
Ahh that's what I like about guitar amps. :)

[DevilsAdvocate]

[$30,000 for speaker cables....

Nearly 7 grand for a volume knob that improves with a $485 wooden knob...

Don't these people know that all you need to do is to quantumly activate your DNA's frequencies and you'll then be able to hear the music on your CDs energistically? Geeze, some people....Smokin mother lovin dead alien angel psychic frisbees! Ain't nothing like audiophiles. How many "cases" would Carla Barton have to "solve" to bring in that kind of dough? High end ignorance the way to go. Forget about raising the voices of the dead, just raise the voices of the Grateful Dead an indiscernible notch and collect 30 times the cash. :(

[Rolfe]

I couldn't afford a Linn Sondek turntable ....I got one! :) (second-hand, to be honest.)

Rolfe.

[MRC_Hans]

Mmmm, I wonder if I could sell these to one of them tube amplifier buffs:

http://www.hans-egebo.dk/images/cv315.jpg

Direct heated triodes. Good for about 30 Watts. Doesn't get more basic than that :rolleyes:. Unfortunately, I only have two.

Hans

[Yelper]

Something in this thread triggered a memory of a question that bugged me a while ago.

A friend who was working in an audio shop (a respectable one at that) was talking about a stereo system he was going to buy. Since I have almost no knowledge of these things and he worked in an audio shop, I took his word for most of the stuff being up to his high standards until he mentioned buying a power cable for 200 quid.

I thought something was fishy about this and so I asked him about it. He swears blind that he can tell the difference between a stereo with a regular power cable and this super-duper power cable, says it makes the sound cleaner etc. My question is, is this possible, or is it just a big pile of c**p? I am talking about the cable that plugs between the wall socket and the main stereo unit thing.

My knowledge of power cables is based almost entirely on computer cables where one acts much like the next. I googled around, but the only references I could find looked very woo-like.

[Bronze Dog]

My question is, is this possible, or is it just a big pile of c**p? I am talking about the cable that plugs between the wall socket and the main stereo unit thing.

My knowledge of power cables is based almost entirely on computer cables where one acts much like the next. I googled around, but the only references I could find looked very woo-like.
Textbook audio woo.

[MRC_Hans]

Power cables? Total nonsense.

Hans

[jimlintott]

I have this sick fantasy of getting together a bunch of these 'golden eared' audiophiles for some listening tests and then giving them actual hearing tests.

"So you say that your super ultra mega sweeter tweeters with hyper cables make all the difference? Funny because our tests show that you can't hear squat past 8khz."

$30k for speaker wire ... might as well just hire the band!!

[Gr8wight]

Something in this thread triggered a memory of a question that bugged me a while ago.

A friend who was working in an audio shop (a respectable one at that) was talking about a stereo system he was going to buy. Since I have almost no knowledge of these things and he worked in an audio shop, I took his word for most of the stuff being up to his high standards until he mentioned buying a power cable for 200 quid.

I thought something was fishy about this and so I asked him about it. He swears blind that he can tell the difference between a stereo with a regular power cable and this super-duper power cable, says it makes the sound cleaner etc. My question is, is this possible, or is it just a big pile of c**p? I am talking about the cable that plugs between the wall socket and the main stereo unit thing.

My knowledge of power cables is based almost entirely on computer cables where one acts much like the next. I googled around, but the only references I could find looked very woo-like.


You might suggest to your friend that he could make some cash by demonstrating that ability to the JREF.

[logical muse]

I got one! :) (second-hand, to be honest.)

Rolfe.
Respect

[bruto]

Something in this thread triggered a memory of a question that bugged me a while ago.

A friend who was working in an audio shop (a respectable one at that) was talking about a stereo system he was going to buy. Since I have almost no knowledge of these things and he worked in an audio shop, I took his word for most of the stuff being up to his high standards until he mentioned buying a power cable for 200 quid.

I thought something was fishy about this and so I asked him about it. He swears blind that he can tell the difference between a stereo with a regular power cable and this super-duper power cable, says it makes the sound cleaner etc. My question is, is this possible, or is it just a big pile of c**p? I am talking about the cable that plugs between the wall socket and the main stereo unit thing.

My knowledge of power cables is based almost entirely on computer cables where one acts much like the next. I googled around, but the only references I could find looked very woo-like.

If the original cables are, like most power cables, covered by safety standards that ensure that they can handle the current, then there is nothing to be gained by changing them. There is no signal passing through them, and the frequencies involved are entirely within the capability of any kind of wire. In American systems, it is actually remotely possible that there is something to be gained by replacing either the plug or the outlet if there is wear. Most American-made plugs use a folded-over prong that has some spring to it, but Japanese plugs are solid. When outlets wear, the Japanese plugs, especially, can become loose and cause voltage drop or intermittent loss of power, even. But this is a malfunction, and all you need to do is fix the bad outlet, or in the case of an American plug, stick a screwdriver into the prong and expand it a bit.

But it is at least theoretically possible for sound to suffer from inadequate power cables. It's actually a pretty common problem when powerful car audio systems are wired into standard radio harnesses. It's extremely unlikely in a home system, where safety standards ensure adequate current handling capacity.

[DevilsAdvocate]

But it is at least theoretically possible for sound to suffer from inadequate power cables.Can you explain how? In what ways does the sound suffer. The only experience that I've had like this is batteries in a cassette tape walkman. Once the batteries get near to empty, they are giving out some power but not enough to turn the wheels at full speed so the tape slows down and things start sounding funny. I’ve never noticed any difference brand new batteries and batteries that have been used for several hours, and I wouldn’t expect any difference because they both have the power to turn the wheels at the expected rates.

So how would it be ‘theoretically possible’ for sound to suffer from ‘inadequate power cables’? It seems the power cable would have to be so inadequate that they could not fully move the mechanical parts of the sound system. Perhaps I’m missing something? :con2:

[MRC_Hans]

If the power cable is not able to handle the current needed for the equipment, then the supply voltage would be unstable, and the sound quality might suffer (and the cable would get hot). However, unless you are working with kilowatt amplifiers, even the cheapest mains cable can easily carry sufficient current.

As Bruto mentions, the problem can occur wit hsystems that run on low-voltage DC, like car systems, but that is another matter.

[bruto]

Can you explain how? In what ways does the sound suffer. The only experience that I've had like this is batteries in a cassette tape walkman. Once the batteries get near to empty, they are giving out some power but not enough to turn the wheels at full speed so the tape slows down and things start sounding funny. I’ve never noticed any difference brand new batteries and batteries that have been used for several hours, and I wouldn’t expect any difference because they both have the power to turn the wheels at the expected rates.

So how would it be ‘theoretically possible’ for sound to suffer from ‘inadequate power cables’? It seems the power cable would have to be so inadequate that they could not fully move the mechanical parts of the sound system. Perhaps I’m missing something? :con2:

What Hans says, above. There are no moving parts in an audio amplifier but performance depends on cdertain voltage levels being maintained. It's highly unlikely that power cords will be a factor in a 115 or 220 volt audio system unless there's a malfunction such as a defective cord or plug that heats up. Even the most powerful stereo receivers made use less current than a two-slice toaster. On the other hand, I've seen even modestly powered car stereos installed in factory wiring harnesses of cars, whose dial lights dimmed on hard bass notes, owing to voltage drop in the thin wiring. A medium powered car stereo could easily draw more amperes through its supply wires than even the most powerful home receiver.

(Ohm's law: volts times amperes equals watts. So 50 watts at 12 volts requires wiring good for 4.16 amps. 50 watts at 220 volts pulls less than a quarter of an ampere.)

[apesma]

This site did not list the latest product from Machina Dynamica called the Clever Little Clock. Endorsed by none other then M. Anda of Intelligent Chip fame. He'll be back next year to claim the million as apparently this clock improves his system even more than the chip does. Another scientific breakthrough reserved only for the gullable audiophile.

[Peter@Beoworld]

If the power cable is not able to handle the current needed for the equipment, then the supply voltage would be unstable, and the sound quality might suffer (and the cable would get hot). However, unless you are working with kilowatt amplifiers, even the cheapest mains cable can easily carry sufficient current.

As Bruto mentions, the problem can occur wit hsystems that run on low-voltage DC, like car systems, but that is another matter.


I actually posted a thread on a website dedicated to a famous BBC speaker decrying the trend towards very expensive speaker wire and offering to fund a Double Blind Test of wires, stipulating only that wires with broadly similar resistance and capacitance should be used. I also expressed myself reasonably forcefully on the subject of power cables, pointing out the negligible effect such devices could have compared with the many metres installed by the local Bob the Builder. I also suggested that an application to JREF was obviously the next step for the golden eared in the forum.
For this I was declared 'IGNOARANT' (sic) and so abused that I have stopped subscribing to the afore mentioned forum. I think some audiophiles are not willing to listen either to the facts or, indeed, their ears.

[LTC8K6]

On top of all that has been said already about power cables...

Any decent audio equipment is going to have very good voltage regulation, which will compensate for quite a bit of voltage drop from the mains power.

[bruto]

On top of all that has been said already about power cables...

Any decent audio equipment is going to have very good voltage regulation, which will compensate for quite a bit of voltage drop from the mains power.

A good point, in the era of transistorized equipment. Once upon a time, that might not have been true, as few tube sets were actively regulated, but I think now if you look at most equipment you'll see that a rather wide voltage range is specified as normal.

On the subject of speaker wire, the DCM speakers I own, which were once considered pretty exotic (and which sound awfully good, too), came with instructions to use good quality zip cord.

[Robaato]

This site did not list the latest product from Machina Dynamica called the Clever Little Clock. Endorsed by none other then M. Anda of Intelligent Chip fame. He'll be back next year to claim the million as apparently this clock improves his system even more than the chip does. Another scientific breakthrough reserved only for the gullable audiophile.You mean this? (http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina41.htm) Good grief, I can't believe that this isn't satire. Hell, they say in the product description itself that this thing does nothing!The Clever Little Clock does not plug into the wall and has no direct influence on the audio signal -- not on house wiring, audio components, cables, interconnects, power cords or acoustic waves. Yet the Clock has a real and profound affect on the sound.Must be magic, I guess. And only $149 -- but if you buy more, the non-existant effects are cumulative! :oldroll:

[kevin]

I got in an argument with a sales guy at Best Buy. He was trying to get me to go with the $50 monster cable for a digital audio cable. I tried explaining that a cleaner digital signal does nothing to sound quality and you were better off buying good quality speaker cables than an overkill digital audio cable.

Don't think I got through.

[logical muse]

I got in an argument with a sales guy at Best Buy. He was trying to get me to go with the $50 monster cable for a digital audio cable. I tried explaining that a cleaner digital signal does nothing to sound quality and you were better off buying good quality speaker cables than an overkill digital audio cable.

Don't think I got through.
Yeah he probably thinks that the '1' might come through as a '0.94' or something, and the '0' might end up as a '0.03' without the monster cable.

It's funny how people still attribute analogue qualities to digital systems. Like, that craze of putting a magic rubber band around your CDs to increase their mass hance improving rotational stability or something, reducing wow and flutter. I guess it made sense to people because it made sense to them with vinyl records. What they didn't get was that the data read from the CD is buffered then clocked through a crystal controlled D/A converter at a precise clock rate, regardless of any variation in the speed of rotation.

Some (most?) CD players now spin up, read a whole bunch o'data then spin down again anyway.

[vbloke]

How the Intelligent Chip Works - The Definitive Explanation

Or: How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Chip

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina64.htm

Assuming for the time being that the Intelligent Chip is quantum in nature - as the manufacturer (JSMR Science and Technology Co.) states - can it be reverse engineered? What are the characteristics of quantum dots and what in tarnation could quantum dots possibly have to do with improving the sound of a CD? Could the tiny gold disc in the GSIC-10 and the silver discs in the GSIC-30 really contain quantum material?
??

How Light Penetrates the CD Player Case
Back to the enigmatic Mr. Chip. Two coherent light sources - the quantum dot array and CD laser - combine to produce coherent quantum superposition in the CD polycarbonate's atoms and molecules (that are strongly resonant to coherent infrared/red light). But how are the photons from the two light sources able to interact? The case of the CD player is much too thick for quantum tunneling to occur. So we're stuck how to explain how light from the laser reaches the Intelligent Chip to trigger photoluminescence of the quantum material. Nor can we explain how the chips's radiated photons interact with the laser light and the CD inside the chassis.

However, if the CD player chassis is viewed as a "leaky box," with many small openings through which the CD laser light can escape (and enter), then we can explain how the laser light reaches the quantum material in the chip and how the chip's emitted photons are able to reach the interior of the player.
!

[bruto]

Thanks for that, Vbloke. I'm convinced. I'm going right out to the shop to get a drill and fill my CD player with holes, so that the chip will work better. Maybe I'll get a half dozen or so of the chips to take advantage of all the extra quantum laser light that's going to be zooming around now. Of course there will be a lot of quantum laser energy bouncing around the listening room now, so if you come to hear my new improved system, leave your tinfoil hat on.

[Ladewig]

!


"!" indeed. I might even go further and say Interrobang. (http://www.interrobang-mks.com/). Say does anyone know the HTML code for one of these puppies?

[jimlintott]

Yeah he probably thinks that the '1' might come through as a '0.94' or something, and the '0' might end up as a '0.03' without the monster cable.

The problem with really cheap optical digital cables can be that they are poorly made. If one of the ends is bad it can cause problems. Actually this can be the problem with really cheap cables overall. Having said that though, the top of the line, really expensive cables are usually overkill.

The digital myth that I find funny is people who claim that either coax or optical is superior to the other.

[Pope130]

But this is a malfunction, and all you need to do is fix the bad outlet, or in the case of an American plug, stick a screwdriver into the prong and expand it a bit.

Bruto,
You are in serious danger of being sued over this. You did not warn everyone to completely remove the plug from the socket before sticking the screwdriver into the prong. Some Darwin Award nominees' family is going to be coming after you. Better put your attorny on retainer now.

Robert

[c4ts]

That gives me an idea...

Did you know you can improve the acoustic performance of your equipment by boosting your outlet's power output? All you have to do is stick a $2,000 copper fork into the socket and QUANTUM FLAPDOODLE POWER MAKES EVERYTHING SOUND GOOD!! And I'll give you a bargain on the magic fork, it can be yours for only $500, though my wife and chldren will starve because of the outrageously low price.

[logical muse]

Here's another poser for the audiowoos:

All these tweaks, volume knobs, cables, etc make the CD sound better, right?

Is there a theoretical maximum quality of sound (however you want to measure it) encoded on the CD?

If yes, then the theory behind all your doodads must be that without them some of the quality is lost in the process somewhere between reading the information (bits) and converting it to sound pressure waves.

If no, then there will always be another gadget that can improve the sound quality.

Exploring these two options....

If there is a fixed, maximum sound quality that can be extracted from an audio CD, and your $485 wooden volume knob helps get closer to that elusive goal, then of course you'd be pleased to know that the CD was recorded in a studio fitted with all the latest $485 volume knobs. Anything less would compromise the source material. See that mixing desk? See all the faders? That's not cheap plastic. Imagine how bad the sound recording would be if they used plastic faders!

Oh, and the cables! The miles and miles of cabling used in your average recording studio isn't your average run-of-the-mill professional audio cable. Oh no. That's not nearly good enough. It's all Quantum Crystal cable, at $30,000 a metre. Anything less would compromise the artist's integrity by not allowing all the fluxotic nuances to be recorded. And besides, if they didn't use your fancy cables then so much of the quality would be lost that what would be the point of you using these expensive cables? You can't get back what's not there.

But it doesn't stop there, not by a long shot.

I have it on good authority that musicians who care about the quality of their recordings wouldn't dream of using substandard cabling to connect their instruments to their amplifiers. Weakest link in the chain and all that, you know. The patented Guitar Magic cables at only $10,000.00 each allow the guitar amp to receive a greater range of percussive dynamics and string scrapes than your cheap nasty cable.

Have you ever taken a guitar or a microphone apart? You should see the nasty crappy hookup wire used to connect the pickup or condenser to the plug! It might only be a few centimetres in length, but it can make or break the transmission of the ultra-dynamic overtones. Better replace that bit of wire with oxygenated (or is it deoxygenated?) mega carbon conductor strands. Most decent guitar techs will do that for only $5,000.00 plus labour costs.

Looking at the other option, where there is no limit to the improvements, no limit to the quality that is embedded in the CD, please, explain where the extra information is? If it's not just a matter of more efficient/accurate reading/interpretation/conversion/transformation, if your devices can infintely continue to improve the sound, where does the extra quality come from if it's not there in the first place?

I look forward to hearing from you. In the meantime, I'll just continue listening to my CDs through my 20-year-old 25 watt NAD amp and CD player (with a broken display so I don't know which track number I'm up to) and Dynaudio speakers (home built enclosures). With ordinary cables. And no fancy volume knob.

[Ladewig]

I have two questions about all this stuff.

1) is this stuff really for sale or is these spoof links?

2) If it is real, then the people who are buying it must know something about electricity and how cables transmit signals. How does one get from that point to believing that raising the wires off the floor with special non-skid ceramic cable elevators will increase sound quality? (from Kevin's link http://www.amusicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?cat=280&sku=AELEV) There must be something more than the-emporer's-new-clothes going on here. What is it?

[jimlintott]

There must be something more than the-emporer's-new-clothes going on here. What is it?

No. That's pretty much it.

I know that no one will argue that there aren't different grades of audio equipment and that the really good stuff is really good. I think what happens to these people is that they percieve weak links. If you have spent big $$$$ on speakers and amplifiers and source equipment you think you have no weak links in the system. Then you start looking at the wire. Can't have pennies a foot wiring on your big $$$$ system so you buy $$$ wire. Then swear it sounds better. Now you've fallen for audio woo and there is no holding you back. Next thing you know you really believe that the material your volumn knob is made from is effecting the sound.

[Desktop Icon]

"So you say that your super ultra mega sweeter tweeters with hyper cables make all the difference? Funny because our tests show that you can't hear squat past 8khz."


Reminds me of a brief exchange I had with a stereo salesman in the mid-80s when I was shopping for a component CD player. The model he was steering me to was exceptional, he said, because it sampled at 44 kHz, and therefore produced sounds at up to 44 kHz. I said that it didn't really work that way, and even if it did, what good would that do since I've never seen an amp or speaker that output 44 kHz.

Showing great patience with dealing with my ignorance, he simply said that those 44 kHz sounds enhanced the sounds that were within our range of hearing, even before they left the CD player itself.

Whatever. I bought a portable Sony DC5 instead.

[Ladewig]

No. That's pretty much it.

I know that no one will argue that there aren't different grades of audio equipment and that the really good stuff is really good. I think what happens to these people is that they percieve weak links. If you have spent big $$$$ on speakers and amplifiers and source equipment you think you have no weak links in the system. Then you start looking at the wire. Can't have pennies a foot wiring on your big $$$$ system so you buy $$$ wire. Then swear it sounds better. Now you've fallen for audio woo and there is no holding you back. Next thing you know you really believe that the material your volumn knob is made from is effecting the sound.

But that last part of your description sounds so strange to me. I can understand how people fall for marketing puffery related to the wire or the components, but I see going from overpriced wires to wooden knobs as a pretty big leap. Don't these people have friends or relatives who laugh at them when they get to the wooden knobs or magical hat racks to place on the speakers?

[logical muse]

Reminds me of a brief exchange I had with a stereo salesman in the mid-80s when I was shopping for a component CD player. The model he was steering me to was exceptional, he said, because it sampled at 44 kHz, and therefore produced sounds at up to 44 kHz. I said that it didn't really work that way, and even if it did, what good would that do since I've never seen an amp or speaker that output 44 kHz.

Showing great patience with dealing with my ignorance, he simply said that those 44 kHz sounds enhanced the sounds that were within our range of hearing, even before they left the CD player itself.

Whatever. I bought a portable Sony DC5 instead.
Well I guess he was just a salesman and not an engineer. He wasn't aware of Nyquist's theorem. The reason 44.1KHz was chosen as the sample rate for CDs was that according to Nyquist the sample rate needs to be at least twice that of the highest frequency to be sampled. 22KHz as an upper limit seems OK given that most people can barely hear above 10KHz let alone 20KHz.

But really, salespeople are the last people you want technical audio advice from. You did well to ignore him.

[StoatBringer]

The "Intelligent Chip" (complete with little plastic case) looks remarkably like a SmartMedia memory card painted orange. They probably just bought a load of old SmartMedia cards that are too small/slow (like 4Mb cards) for anyone to want anymore.

And sprayed them orange, made up a load of confusing crap about them, and sold them for a MASSIVE profit.

[MRC_Hans]

I really, really wish that CLC was a joke. But I'm afraid it isn't. Oh Ed, why will my conscience not allow me to make a buck on these things? I could easily think up more impressive looking things and write more impressive-sounding pseudo-science blurbs about them.

But, I have to sleep at night.

Hans

[force_redo]

You mean this? (http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina41.htm) Good grief, I can't believe that this isn't satire. Hell, they say in the product description itself that this thing does nothing!Must be magic, I guess. And only $149 -- but if you buy more, the non-existant effects are cumulative! :oldroll:

Wow. I have exactly this alarm clock on my beside table. It didn't come with this red sticker, though, but therefore it was only £3. It improves the sound enourmously, especially when you're listening to recordings of random alarm clock sounds around 7.30am in my flat...

Oh, and by the way, I presume electricity from nuclear power plants sounds a lot better than the usual fossil energy, doesn't it? I think I'll start selling diesel power generators soon that sound even better at only £250.000 each.
(Works only in connection with a £1000 power cord and only with the generator in the same room to keep the cabeling as short as possible. If you could still hear your music whilst it's running you would realise that it sounds a lot better)

FR

[Francois Tremblay]

I saw this great site once, and I can't find it any more, about little stickers that you put on your stereo or at certain places. They sold them really expensive. I completely forgot what it was called, too. But it was so absurd and the pages were so long. It was quite entertaining.

[bruto]

I saw this great site once, and I can't find it any more, about little stickers that you put on your stereo or at certain places. They sold them really expensive. I completely forgot what it was called, too. But it was so absurd and the pages were so long. It was quite entertaining.

I think Randi had those in one of his commentaries sometime in the past year. I'm too lazy to search, but I think you might find it in the archives there.

[MRWiffen]

Oh, and by the way, I presume electricity from nuclear power plants sounds a lot better than the usual fossil energy, doesn't it? I think I'll start selling diesel power generators soon that sound even better at only £250.000 each.
(Works only in connection with a £1000 power cord and only with the generator in the same room to keep the cabeling as short as possible. If you could still hear your music whilst it's running you would realise that it sounds a lot better)

FR
A friend of my dad's makes generators. He told me once about one they made with a double muffler system. You could stand right beside it and have a normal conversation while it was running. However for your generator to stop the quantum interference of using the wrong metal each muffler would be about $75,000 so to get a nice quite system add $150,000 to your price.

[Ladewig]

A friend of my dad's makes generators. He told me once about one they made with a double muffler system. You could stand right beside it and have a normal conversation while it was running. However for your generator to stop the quantum interference of using the wrong metal each muffler would be about $75,000 so to get a nice quite system add $150,000 to your price.

While you and force_redo may find turning to the dark side tempting, let me warn you that there is a special place in hell in for people who turn from skepticism to fleecing the believers. You'll find yourself handcuffed to Sylvia Browne and James VanPraag. There will be great wailing and gnashing of teeth and your unbearable pain will be made worse by people telling you that if you put crystals on your body, the pain will be reduced.

[Francois Tremblay]

I found it by searching through the JREF site.
http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/index.html

It's a real doozy.

[force_redo]

While you and force_redo may find turning to the dark side tempting, let me warn you that there is a special place in hell in for people who turn from skepticism to fleecing the believers. You'll find yourself handcuffed to Sylvia Browne and James VanPraag. There will be great wailing and gnashing of teeth and your unbearable pain will be made worse by people telling you that if you put crystals on your body, the pain will be reduced.

Sorry MRWiffen, I have to axe these business plans, I didn't know it was that risky...

FR

[Freethinker]

Oh, and by the way, I presume electricity from nuclear power plants sounds a lot better than the usual fossil energy, doesn't it? I think I'll start selling diesel power generators soon that sound even better at only £250.000 each.

FR

That's only true if you use the diesel fuel straight out of the pump. If you pour it through my "Quantum Resonance Filter Funnel", the sound you get will be notably more pure and the nonaudible components will be significantly enhanced, while the exhaust fumes will regrow hair. I can let them go for $1200 US, but if you are interested in marketing your generator, I'm sure that we could work out a volume purchase deal that would allow you to include this necessary enhancement.;)

[force_redo]

That's only true if you use the diesel fuel straight out of the pump. If you pour it through my "Quantum Resonance Filter Funnel", the sound you get will be notably more pure and the nonaudible components will be significantly enhanced, while the exhaust fumes will regrow hair. I can let them go for $1200 US, but if you are interested in marketing your generator, I'm sure that we could work out a volume purchase deal that would allow you to include this necessary enhancement.;)

Hmmm, I'm getting tempted again...
must... resist... the dark side.

On a serious note: I think I just experience with myself why there is so much of that audio stuff out there: You're having a laugh with a friend over a drink and the next day you start earning serious money with it... It is just too easy.

FR

P.S.: The good thing about your funnel would be that it's a dual use device:
http://www.rolaa.de/sehensw/radio/pspieler/over/trompete.gif
(The sound is great if you use it this way)

[MRWiffen]

Sorry MRWiffen, I have to axe these business plans, I didn't know it was that risky...

FR
If it works like the Catholic Church used to we could just donate say 50% of the profits to the JREF or other skeptic organizations and get a "get out of Hell" free. And the thought of Van Pragh and Browne chained together makes me wonder which one will call the other a fake first?

[Flange Desire]

What is a bit surprising to me about all this, is that so many people see the BS and comment on it, but seem to avoid using the word FRAUD.
Is it because of fear of litigation in the US, or is it a tact/cultural thing?

Does anyone know if Machina Dynamica or any other Geoff Kait scams are marketing in Australia?

And does anyone know why they have not been taken to task by the appropriate consumer protection agencies in the US?

[force_redo]

What is a bit surprising to me about all this, is that so many people see the BS and comment on it, but seem to avoid using the word FRAUD.
Is it because of fear of litigation in the US, or is it a tact/cultural thing?

Does anyone know if Machina Dynamica or any other Geoff Kait scams are marketing in Australia?

And does anyone know why they have not been taken to task by the appropriate consumer protection agencies in the US?

I personally think (maybe that's just me) as long as people are happy with what they get and believe in it it's not really fraud. (I know by law it is, but from a moral standpoint I'd say that one of the parties have to think that they've been defrauded, too) When seller and buyer are happy with their trade, well... fair enough.

Fortune Tellers are rarely taken to court, or crystal sellers or astrologers or representatives of cults/religions etc.

Again: This is just my opinion, it's not based upon nor backed up by any law in the world

FR

[jimlintott]

And does anyone know why they have not been taken to task by the appropriate consumer protection agencies in the US?

I also have an opinion on this.

The claims that these companies make are often bizzarre and would be difficult to prove or disprove. Opening the soundstage, quantum alignment ( or whatever). If your quantums are unaligned and some magic dot fixes it then I guess you got your moneys worth. It's not like they are claiming to sell a 30 inch TV that only has a 20 inch screen.

The audio world already suffers from a lack of standards. I have two home theatre amps and both claim 100 watts per channel. The detailed specs reveal the differences but to the average consumer they are both the same and one costs four times as much as the other. It sounds ten times better but through mediocre speakers it might be heard to tell. So, it's already a confusing industry.

The agencies that deal with trade probably also have better places to expend their efforts. Some of this stuff is so expensive that you have to be wealthy to buy it. That doesn't make it right but it is often assumed that the very wealthy have brains enough to make good decisions and need less protection. Also, there are probably no complaints to start any investigations.

Any way those are my guesses as to why this will continue.:)

[MRC_Hans]

You are right, there are no complaints. For some of these reasons:

So Joe Audiofool buys a 250£ widget with a fancy name that is supposed to deepen his soundstage and align his overtones.

Chances are, with 250£ on the scale, Joe is going to persuade himself that he can indeed hear a difference.

Even if he realizes he cannot, when his neighboor, Bill Stereoaddict comes by, is Joe going to tell him "I just blew 250 bucks"? Nah, that is admitting he's a sucker. Instead he'll say "Well it's pretty stiff, but just hear how deep my soundstage got, and listen to those overtones line up" ... And Bill is not about to sound dumb, so he'll go "Mmmm, cool"

AND even if Joe decides to complain, he'll contact some complaint organization and say "I bought this widget, but my soundstage hasn't deepened" and they'll say "your WHAT??"

AND even if Joe gets his complaint to bear, the company that sold the widget will just claim that it is because Joe has neglected to adjust his quantum streams, so of course the widget can't operate properly.

Hans

[roger]

I personally think (maybe that's just me) as long as people are happy with what they get and believe in it it's not really fraud. (I know by law it is, but from a moral standpoint I'd say that one of the parties have to think that they've been defrauded, too) When seller and buyer are happy with their trade, well... fair enough.Really?? So, if I am your car mechanic, you bring in your car with a problem that turns out to be a blocked fuel filter, and I lie to you and tell you the engine needs to be replaced, and you say "okay, go to it", you are okay with that? Just because you didn't know I lied to you makes it morally okay for me to lie to you?

In that case, let me tell you I'm a financial advisor. Send me all your money and I'll invest it. I promise you that someone will walk out of this deal with a profit equal to 100% of your investment. PM me for details.

[force_redo]

Really?? So, if I am your car mechanic, you bring in your car with a problem that turns out to be a blocked fuel filter, and I lie to you and tell you the engine needs to be replaced, and you say "okay, go to it", you are okay with that? Just because you didn't know I lied to you makes it morally okay for me to lie to you?


Well, not exactly. Your example applies if I would come to you being absolutely convinced I needed a new engine. And not because someone talked me into it, but because I consider myself a car mechanic, too and think this is the only good way to deal with a blocked fuel filter.

This is what advertising tries to do, too: To make you believe that product A is far superior to product B, even if it's not. So in their best case scenario you go out and buy it and will be still convinced it's better than B, although it might be even more expensive.

(But I do see your point and that's why I tried to keep my last post as subjective as possible.)

FR

[MRC_Hans]

And would you think that a car mechanic who said "OK, Mister, I'll chage your engine", knowing that a 1$ fuel filter would do the job, an honest fella? I wouldn't. There is such a thing as professinal pride and integrety.

So if somebody parks his car and leaves the key in and the door open, it is OK to steal it? Just because you steal from an idiot, you're still a thief. Even if you steal from a rich idiot who practically begs you to rob him, you remain a thief.

IMHO.

Hans

[force_redo]

And would you think that a car mechanic who said "OK, Mister, I'll chage your engine", knowing that a 1$ fuel filter would do the job, an honest fella? I wouldn't. There is such a thing as professinal pride and integrety.


Oh, I totally agree and I'm not saying that people selling this stuff are "honest fellas".
And that's why we're here to tell those poor, lost souls they shouldn't pay money for this crap. But however hard we try, they still do. (see "trainman") So, all I'm saying is that if they're convinced buying it and even a bunch of people tell them it's nonsense and why, there will always be somebody selling it to them and I don't blame them for doing so.
We can't ban them from buying these things, can we?


So if somebody parks his car and leaves the key in and the door open, it is OK to steal it? Just because you steal from an idiot, you're still a thief. Even if you steal from a rich idiot who practically begs you to rob him, you remain a thief.
Hans

I hope you agree that theft is something different from trading (albeit useless) things.

If a rich idiot says "here, have my car, I give it to you as a present. just like that." he might be still an idiot, but it doesn't make you a thief.

FR


ETA:
P.S.: If you want to flush ten grand down the drain, I won't be (legally) able to stop you. But don't blame the guy who installed the drain nor the guy in the sewers who picks them up...

[bruto]

Of course I think it's fraud plain and simple, at least in the moral or ethical sense, but it could be hard to enforce legally. Taking the automotive example again, what if I'm already a woo-woo type, and I take my car not to the mechanic down the street, but to my favorite car psychic? The car psychic says "well, those corporate-funded allopathic mechanics would probably say it only needs a fuel filter, and I can get it going for 24 bucks if you don't mind the bad karma, but if you really want it to run in harmony with the universe, I think it would benefit from one of these specially prepared engines I have been buying from the Krishna Manitou Piston Blessing Company. They use quantum crystal technology to realign the DNA in the cork gaskets." I say, OH yeah, that' sounds good. I buy the engine. I'd swear that the car runs better than it ever did.

Now of course that's crazy, and fraudulent, but legally, if the car psychic swears he believed the claims, and if I believed the car psychic, whom can we sue? It's not really all that different from more minor automotive woo, like the "precombustion catalyst" they were touting back in the 70's, or the electronic rust preventers, etc. etc., nor from the claims of pet psychics, homeopaths, palm readers, astrologers and on and on. Unless you can find a smoking gun, all they really need to do is to claim they really believe their own nonsense, and they can pass the buck on the fraud.

[vbloke]

We need something analogous to Godwin's Law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)
as applied to quantum physics

"If you quote something works by quantum means and you are not a quantum physicist, your claims can be summarily dismissed as crank"

[Reeco]

Hmm... tricky one.

Clearly the companies who market and sell these products have no integrity, however it can't be denied that what they do gives their customers enjoyment - no matter how much that enjoyment is a result of delusion.

Yes, these do-nothing products shouldn't be available, but the fact is a lot of people want them to be. It seems that the pursuit of audio perfection is never-ending for some people. Once they have their basic kit, they'd be at a dead end without the stickers, the cable-rings and all the other junk.

So you could argue that the audiophile companies are providing a service. I wouldn't, but you could. It's BS, but it makes people happy.

I'm new here, by the way. Just de-lurked myself.

:)

[force_redo]

Hmm... tricky one.

Clearly the companies who market and sell these products have no integrity, however it can't be denied that what they do gives their customers enjoyment - no matter how much that enjoyment is a result of delusion.

Yes, these do-nothing products shouldn't be available, but the fact is a lot of people want them to be. It seems that the pursuit of audio perfection is never-ending for some people. Once they have their basic kit, they'd be at a dead end without the stickers, the cable-rings and all the other junk.

So you could argue that the audiophile companies are providing a service. I wouldn't, but you could. It's BS, but it makes people happy.

I'm new here, by the way. Just de-lurked myself.

:)

Hello Reeco and welcome.

I just want to stress the point again, that I'm not arguing on legal grounds. I think from a legal perspective it might be fraud. That might also depend on the laws of the country they're operating from.
But I "feel" that as long as no harm is done, there's no fraud. These guys know that the effect they're investing money in is not scientifically proven. Yet they choose to believe in it. And as long as they're happy with what they got, it's their free choice.

FR

[Ladewig]

The auto analogy is not useful here because government licensing and regulatory agencies could take a car with no problems, remove the working fuel whatsit, replace it with a faulty one and take it to mechanics in their jurisdiction to see if they recommend replacing the fuel thingy or replacing the engine. They can do that because every well-trained auto mechanic can use diagnostic tools to determine that a specific part is not working properly.

The audio folks make up words and then say things like:

,the Ultra Clarifier's DUAL BEAM configuration further enhances the treatment process of the compact disc. Nothing can prepare you for the absolute impact on your senses when your discs have been treated with the new DUALBEAM Ultra Clarifier.

"You need a new engine" is a claim that can easily proven to be false and thus can be classified as fraud. "This configuration further enhances the treatment process of the CD" cannot easily be proven to be false. The audio-conmen are careful to never make a claim that can be measured by equiptment; they don't say the volume of sounds between 10,000 and 11,000 Hz will be increased by at least 4 dB. Instead they say, "the listening experience will be improved," or "the multi-dimensional vibration flutter will be reduced."

Fraud is less about what is true or not and more about what can be proved to be true and proved to be false in court.

[bruto]

The auto analogy is not useful here because government licensing and regulatory agencies could take a car with no problems, remove the working fuel whatsit, replace it with a faulty one and take it to mechanics in their jurisdiction to see if they recommend replacing the fuel thingy or replacing the engine. They can do that because every well-trained auto mechanic can use diagnostic tools to determine that a specific part is not working properly.

"You need a new engine" is a claim that can easily proven to be false and thus can be classified as fraud. "This configuration further enhances the treatment process of the CD" cannot easily be proven to be false. The audio-conmen are careful to never make a claim that can be measured by equiptment; they don't say the volume of sounds between 10,000 and 11,000 Hz will be increased by at least 4 dB. Instead they say, "the listening experience will be improved," or "the multi-dimensional vibration flutter will be reduced."

In my "new engine" scenario, though, having my car psychic acknowledge that "technically," all you need is a fuel filter, but that the overall spiritual experience of driving the car, etc. would be enhanced by the special new engine, you can sidestep the obvious diagnostic issues.

Fraud is less about what is true or not and more about what can be proved to be true and proved to be false in court.


I think it's all still fraud ethically, no matter what harm is or is not done, and no matter how satisfied the customer is, if the person perpetrating it knows it's untrue. That's an abuse of trust and exploitation of others' foolishness. I find it nearly impossible to believe that someone who takes a piece of surplus electronic junk, or a sticky label, or a cheap chinese clock, and resells it as a magic device for audio, actually believes what he says. If he did, and he were honest, he'd acknowledge that you can buy the same clock somewhere else, and have it perform the same miracles. For something this silly and unlikely, I think there's sufficient presumption of guilt on ethical grounds to accuse these people of it, even if one cannot make a case in court.

[Ladewig]

I think it's all still fraud ethically, no matter what harm is or is not done, and no matter how satisfied the customer is, if the person perpetrating it knows it's untrue.

Oh, I'll agree with that. These shysters are as crooked as they come. I was commenting on whether or not it was fraud in a legal sense.

[force_redo]

I think it's all still fraud ethically, no matter what harm is or is not done, and no matter how satisfied the customer is, if the person perpetrating it knows it's untrue. That's an abuse of trust and exploitation of others' foolishness. I find it nearly impossible to believe that someone who takes a piece of surplus electronic junk, or a sticky label, or a cheap chinese clock, and resells it as a magic device for audio, actually believes what he says. If he did, and he were honest, he'd acknowledge that you can buy the same clock somewhere else, and have it perform the same miracles. For something this silly and unlikely, I think there's sufficient presumption of guilt on ethical grounds to accuse these people of it, even if one cannot make a case in court.

Ok, I admit you have a point here. And I guess it's actually the reason why most of us (not here on this forum, I mean "out there") don't do these things.
ETA: (Except from the prospect of "Ladewig's hell") ;)
I was carried away by my future business plans, I guess... ;-)

However, I still have problems calling it fraud, I find this a bit harsh. Can somebody help me out with a better word? For me it's like selling a horoscope or a lucky charm or go to an "alternative doctor" or fortune teller. All these people know what they're selling, but people who buy it should be well aware of what they're getting. Most of them are old enough...

I would still like to know how you see people who advertise their washing soap to be much better in washing your clothes than the competitive brand?
Or, to put it more generally: What is your opinion of advertisments as such?

FR

[Flange Desire]

I am not at all shy about using the word FRAUD for ads that lie about the operation and performance of a product.

It is a very bad thing when such frauds are accepted by the general population as 'normal'. Along with the current widespread acceptance of wooism, this is another symptom of 'the big dumb-down'.

If enough complaints are made to the appropriate consumer protection agencies then these fraudulent advertisers will eventually be bought to task.
Unfortunately these agencies seem to be quite inefficient at detecting such scams for themselves, so it is up to us (as potential consumers), to bring them to the notice of the agencies.

Excuse me for re-asking the question -
Has anyone seen Geoff Kait's products marketed down here in oz?
My googling has not turned up much of interest so far.

[LTC8K6]

That $10 dollar fuel filter can't possibly have fixed my engine trouble! It still seems to be running rough to me. I think I really need a new engine.....

But sir, I test drove it and it ran like a champ...

Bah! I'm going to a real mechanic to get a compression test....

Sometimes people just think that expensive = better. The more you charge for something, the more enthusiastic they are about it. The very fact that a piece of wire costs 20X as much as zip cord makes these folks act as if it's automatically better. Their stereo suddenly sounds better and they tell everyone they can to buy the special wire. No amount of explanation will ever get them to believe that lamp cord does the job just as well.

After a while, they are so deep into the special wire story or whatever, that they can't back off the claims because they will look like a fool. They've told all their friends, argued at length, lost a few friends, spent a lot of money, etc...

They now have a stereo system that costs 10 or 20 times as much as their neighbor's, and their neighbor still can't hear the difference. :boxedin:

[LTC8K6]

Why don't most folks do anything about these frauds? Yes, they are absolutely frauds, and nothing like soap commercials, imo.

Just look at TV. When you see Kevin Trudeau back on the air, you tend to give up hope, I think. I know I do. Then you see his totally useless book on the bestseller list..... arrrrrghhhhhh!!!!!!!

I just try to tell those around me about these types of frauds.

As far as hoping the FCC or FTC will do anything........I hold little hope at all.

[Ladewig]

Why don't most folks do anything about these frauds?


Ah, but that is a different question. All law enforcement agencies and regulatory agencies have limited resources. Every day they must make decisions about how to allocate these resources. I agree with their decisions that the people selling Quatro trackers are much more dangerous and harmful to society than the people selling speaker cable elevators. Determining how cheated the victims feel is irrelevant to whether or not the sellers are committing fraud, but that question is very relevant to determing who should be prosecuted.

[LTC8K6]

I meant the general rabble, not the government agencies.

I suppose if enough people hollered about Trudeau, and made a big enough stink, he'd be put out of business by the powers that be.....and lack of business.....

[Reeco]

That $10 dollar fuel filter can't possibly have fixed my engine trouble! It still seems to be running rough to me. I think I really need a new engine.....

But sir, I test drove it and it ran like a champ...

Bah! I'm going to a real mechanic to get a compression test....

Sometimes people just think that expensive = better. The more you charge for something, the more enthusiastic they are about it. The very fact that a piece of wire costs 20X as much as zip cord makes these folks act as if it's automatically better. Their stereo suddenly sounds better and they tell everyone they can to buy the special wire. No amount of explanation will ever get them to believe that lamp cord does the job just as well.

After a while, they are so deep into the special wire story or whatever, that they can't back off the claims because they will look like a fool. They've told all their friends, argued at length, lost a few friends, spent a lot of money, etc...

They now have a stereo system that costs 10 or 20 times as much as their neighbor's, and their neighbor still can't hear the difference. :boxedin:


Some business expert here in the UK (can't remember his name) visited a company who sold a bottled milkshake drink. They really believed they had a good product, but it just wasn't selling. His advice? Put a gold band around the bottle and triple the price. It worked - the company's sales rocketed.

[MRC_Hans]

Just bought a new set of headphones, because my trusty old set finally went south :(.

On the back of the package, they inform me that the cord is made of oxygen-free copper. Now, I tried to find a set that did not spout this nonsense, but it was on every set in that shop. Actually it figures; after all, I have never seen a wire made of copper oxyde :rolleyes:.

This was not audiophile gear, it was just a plain vanilla 40$ set of headphones :nope:

I think this migration of the nonsense to mainstream equipment is a very good reason to fight it.

Hans

[force_redo]

I think this migration of the nonsense to mainstream equipment is a very good reason to fight it.
Hans

Yeah, I know. When I bought my stereo (the speakers actually support bi-wiring since "some customers are requesting this", as the manual states) I specifically asked for the thinnest speaker cables they had. Those were apparently out of stock and I got the second thinnest ones.
Now I have these two garden hose thick copper pipelines in my flat and all my friends laugh at me and I have to explain over and over again that I didn't deliberately buy these.

Later, for my rear speakers I got the thinner model but even that one is still approx 4mm in diameter.

*sigh*

FR

P.S.: Now with my alarm clock in my bedromm all this stuff could start making a difference, of course...
P.P.S.: No, I don't buy at woo-woo hifi, but rather at a normal UK hifi chain that offers good value for money, I think. Maybe you know it in the US, too. It's called "Richer Sounds"

[Freethinker]

Yeah, I know. When I bought my stereo (the speakers actually support bi-wiring since "some customers are requesting this", as the manual states) I specifically asked for the thinnest speaker cables they had. Those were apparently out of stock and I got the second thinnest ones.


A friend has a lakefront home with a deck and gazebo near the water. A few years ago he hosted his sister's small wedding, and wanted to have music at the gazebo, which is a couple of hundred feet from his high-end audio system in the house. He asked me to take care of it (I'm an electrical engineer) as he was swamped with other stuff. I unhooked a 220V power line that we had run down to the dock a few years earlier for a pressure washer, and connected the system to the power cable with zip cord. At the dock end, I used a 220 connector and two pieces of zip cord to connect the speakers. Numerous compliments that evening about the sound.:blush:

[Freethinker]

Sometimes people just think that expensive = better.

Very true. When I was a teenager, I made a fair bit of spending money fixing TVs and other small appliances for neighbors. Most of what I did was fixing bad solder or replacing a tube or cleaning a tuner or volume control. If I gave it a shot of tuner cleaner or something else very simple and it fixed it, if I didn't charge them at least $20, they acted like I hadn't really done anything. Many would buy another TV thinking I had only hidden the problem.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I'm a member of some audiophile forums, and the saddest thing about all this nonsense is that, it doesnt matter how well you argue, or how the others end without rational arguments... They will continue to ask about "the better cable" at the next opportunity.

How some beliefs perpetuate is strange (for me).