Here's your chance Kilik

[bagtaggar]

Present an argument here. Go ahead.

We've given you countless suggestions on how you can improve your argumentation, how you can make a stronger case, how you can present your information for critique.

So, I ask everyone to help Kilik out here, we'll try to keep this formal and civil of course, and let him make a clear, stated argument.

Kilik, this is the format:

Make a statement you believe is true.

Present an argument, in your own words, that defends that statement.

Provide evidence for your argument.

Explain carefully how each element of evidence relates to specific points in your argument.



The rest of us will help guide you along. I ask that no one even argue with what he's presenting until due time. Let's just try to get him to present it in the right way.

Ok?

Should be interesting.

[bob_kark]

*Waiting on the edge of my seat*

[Kilik]

Chinese character for Qi
http://www.buqi.net/gb/1/pics-1/qi.gif

Here is post I found, quoted from another discussion board,

" Qi has been subjected to this kind of cross cultural parsing error to the point of obscurity. No-one who understood what is implied by Qi would say they don't beleive in it. Saying you don't beleive in Qi is like saying you don't beleive in 'relationship' or "influence".

Qi is an old idea. The model I will try to explain is at least 2300 years old as it is clearly laid out in the Huangdi Neijing, the seminal work of chinese medicine. While essentially a medical text it also lays out a metaphysical model that is basic to chinese philosophy. The oldest character for Qi represented vapours rising. In time the radical for grain was placed below to show the steam that rises from cooking millet. What happens when you smell food cooking? Your body responds; stomach gurgles, mouth waters, etc. So something about cooking food exerted influence on you. Qi.

What is the nature of this influence? It requires that we introduce two other philosophical concepts that have been subject to ideational mutilation, Yin and Yang. We often see the simplistic folk models of Yin and Yang that are lists of things associated with the two concepts. ( Yin is feminine, cool, dark, receptive/ Yang is masculine, warm, light, creative). These lists are not strictly wrong, yet they obscure the reason the lists were made in the first place.

' Between heaven and earth are qi and it's laws' ; between Yin and Yang are Qi and it's laws'. This classic statement points to the most important aspect of Qi, it's context. So qi is the interplay of Yin and Yang. This brings us back to the nature of Yin and Yang.

Yin is the tendency of things in the universe to coalesce and slow down. Yin is the tendency to crystalization and struction. Yin is the tendacy of matter to fall down and shadows to form in opposition to light.

Yang is the tendency for things to change and become other things. The tendency to dissolve and tendency to grow. The tendency for clouds to boil and skin to tan.

All objects of sense experience are an interplay of Yin and Yang. This includes individual things as well as systems. This is why the concept of Taiji is the great terminus or the grand ultimate, because it includes all things in the universe. Yin and Yang are linked and one cannot be discussed without invoking the other. Structure cannot be divorced from function.

They stand in mutual opposition.
They are rooted in each other.
They define each others limit.
They transform into one another.

When we discuss the balance of Yin and Yang at any given moment or in any given state we are talking about Qi. It is important to understand that Yin and Yang are not absolute states of being, rather they are part of a moving frame that can applied in a variety of ways to any situation. There are many situations where the place of Yin and Yang is considered to be understood and relatively predictable so they are left out of the discussion. One of these places is in the context of the relationship between body and mind.

When we look at the basic idea of body and mind in Chinese philosophy we are talking about Jing(essense), and Shen( spirit, or summation of mental-emotional aspects of the individual). The relative interaction of Jing and Shen is the normal context for the discussion of Qi in martial arts. When someone says 'lead qi to your fingertips" the implication is to focus the mind on the fingertips to perceive the interaction between Jing and Shen at that point, hence qi. However, you could also say, ' absorb the opponents force to use their strength against them.' In this case Yin is found in the reception and relaxed connection of the defender ( song) , and the Yang is found in the aggresor's force( Li). The resulting Qi is how the interaction plays out. If the defender is subtle and skilled the qi will be the qi of a throw perhaps. If the aggressor is more subtle or skilled the result may be the qi of a successful hit.. If the aggressor is very subtle they may be able to become more Yin that the defender and so invert the frame of Yin and Yang."

Martial Arts videos. In the past it was necessary to combine Ki and spiritual training with martial arts, and even healing and medicine.

Connection to the earth. Center of gravity. For sweeping the sweep digs a trench into the earth. The hips are like pendulums, connected to the ground

http://www.brainsalad.com/mov/clip06.mov

Various videos around the net
http://www.chentaichi.org/hunyuan/Videos/PosturalAdvantageWeb.mov
http://www.chentaichi.org/hunyuan/Videos/How3JointsWorkWeb.mov
http://www.chentaichi.org/hunyuan/Videos/StretchHeel1.mov

http://www.taiji.de/taiji/head5e_17/chensi-2.ram

Sledge hammer! Ugh
http://www.hsing-I.com/pics/index.html

Some videos at these sites
http://www.blacktaoist.com

Taiji
http://www.taijigongfu.com/gallery.html

Incredible vitalisation, vital energy, and health
http://mindboxing.com/

cellular joy
http://www.taijigongfu.com/healthmartial.html



Anyways, that's one post I found interesting. So it sounds like one of the first classifications of Yin and Yang, supposedly had to do with sunlight vs. a shadow, or light vs, dark. This is because through history, teachers would teach mankind through oracles such as the I ching, and possibly used prisms to teach about oneness. Such as how everything is vibration , and octaves. Galaxies, stars, planets, moons, humans, light, matter, vapour, sound. The emperors had no problem with this as long as they could become immortal, lead be turned to gold, or if their futures could be predicted.

Info on the I Ching
http://www.69yinyang.com/index2.html
http://www.69yinyang.com/ICscience/digital11.html
http://www.69yinyang.com/ICscience/ic-frc5.html
http://www.69yinyang.com/ICscience/scientists.html
http://www.gwizdala.art.pl/a3/rgb/hexagramms.php


I think the Taoist cultivation is quite concerned with pre natal qi-
http://www.kheper.net/topics/I_Ching/IChing_and_dna.htm

http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/ichgene6.html
http://www.kheper.net/topics/I_Ching/ehichgen.gif


Wu Ji, Tai Ji, Yin Yang, 8 trigrams, and Color
http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/trigrams/archetypes.htm

http://www.biosonic.org/ManualEng/circles.JPG
http://www.biosonic.org/ManualEng/Rgb-cym.jpg
http://www.biosonic.org/ManualEng/COLORS.html
http://www.msnucleus.org/membership/html/k-6/as/physics/5/asp5_4a.html


IMO and as I understand-


There are laws of the absolute, and laws of the relative.

Absolute laws. The same law governs everything from biggest to smallest, beginning and end. Truthfulness, Compassion, Forbearance is all, the base of a pyrymid with spirit at the tip as one. All is vibration.


There is also the law of evolution, like 10 steps forwrd 9.9 steps back, SORT OF, and law of love.

There is a so called principle of inter- generation, inter-inhibition. And creation, stasis, degeneration, destruction.

Ultimately ki is related to the principle of the oldest name of God. Yod He Vau He. It is know in many cultures, Yawheh, jehova, and Ya Ho Wa Ho are afew. The interplay father, mother, son, and universal holy spirit reborn. All is vibration, and octaves of it.

http://www.webcom.com/mhc/archaeology/decalogue-tetragrammaton.html
http://www.prs.org/gallery-kabblh.htm



http://www.yoga-tibet.com/starexercise1.htm


The perfect condition is inflowing and outflowing cultivation at the same time. Some qigong starts by connecting to the universe, through the palms, feet, bai hui, or even fingers in mudra positions( fingers are like antennas). Some qigong is very concerned with inward cultivation and sealing the senses, cultivating lotus position and pointing fingers inwards towards the wrists like a hollow fist or hands at dantien. But I think perhaps cultivating lotus position, with energy flowing out the hands is a more advanced posture.

Qi practices also circulate energy and connect flows and acupoints, this is why if you bend forward you will next bend back, if you open you will next close.

The way the Earth's magnetic field is drawn now in modern times, looks almost exactly like how the energy of the human body was pictured and trained in ancient times. Ancient practices face south often too. Also ancient burials in different cultures are along north/South axis. It goes in through the center and out around both sides at different distances and cycles

http://www.windows.ucar.edu/physical_science/images/dipole_small.gif

http://members.fortunecity.com/anemaw/biomagnetism.htm
That article also talks about how animals sense the earth's magnetic field, such as how birds sense the field with the Pineal body, to navigate flight.

The heart's electromagnetic field for that matter
http://www.heartmath.org/research/science-of-the-heart/soh-images/soh_20_pic.gif

Pineal
http://www.crystalinks.com/thirdeyepineal.html
http://www.crystalinks.com/pinealcolors.gif

[Kilik]

Qigong is cultivation of the mind's place in the universe, to be open to all power all creation, flowing. Buddhas, and cultivators of buddhahood do a meditation posture in which the first finger bends down to connect to the thumb, symbolising the ego's will bowing to the will of heaven. The Tao has the way of wu wei, action through non action, doing things in accordance with the eternal Tao and nature, and not through self, or the human mind's will. Jesus said you reap what you sow, but that it would be full, pressed down and overflowing. In a Path that became religous over time, there was a saying( in reference to the universal spirit), " your will be done, not mine, in me and through me", and goes on to say, " show me what I must do this day to be a channel of your blessing to all." The more consciouss of the eternal manifestiation of the great priciple, that which creates, consitutes, governs, sustains and contains all, the more in accordance to it's way and flow someone can be, in my understanding. Which can use both physical and mental activities.

http://www.eclecticenergies.com/mudras/images/4mudra1.jpg

http://www.eclecticenergies.com/mudras/images/4mudra2.jpg

http://www.eclecticenergies.com/mudras/images/4mudra3.jpg

http://www.eclecticenergies.com/mudras/images/4mudra4.jpg

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/artimages/bf77.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/4886/faxiang2.jpg

http://www.buddhanet.net/mudras.htm

http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/mudras.html

"Another interesting meaning is given to the idea of the mudra. It reveals the secret imbibed in the five fingers. In such an interpretation, each of the fingers, starting with the thumb, is identified with one of the five elements, namely the sky, wind, fire, water, and the earth. Their contact with each other symbolizes the synthesis of these elements, significant because every form in this universe is said to be composed of a unique combination of these elements. "

"In the Benediction or blessing mudra the first two fingers and thumb are used--these represents the etheric, air and fire elements of which the formal ritual of the baptism of "fire" is facilitated and enacted."

[Kilik]

http://www.indotalisman.com/christmudra1.JPG

http://www.indotalisman.com/christmudra5.jpg

http://www.indotalisman.com/christmudra7.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/johnaugus/heart-icon.jpg

http://www.falundafa.org/book/flgfig/5-12.gif

http://www.indotalisman.com/christmudra2.JPG

http://www.falundafa.org/book/flgfig/4-2.gif

http://www.indotalisman.com/christmudra6.jpg

http://www.indotalisman.com/christmudra4.jpg

Taoist mudra
http://dayan.oompa.net/images/qigong-right-3.jpg


Some Psychic phenomena has been shown to exist-
http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html
http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/psi/delanoy/delanoy.html

An actual explanation of exactly how humans evolved and were created in all aspects. On the internet

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce03.html

http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/juliet.htm

http://www.shellac.org/slu/scayce01.html

Interesting ancient finds from around the world

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/992589/posts
http://www.cuba.cu/ciencia/citma/ama/museo/exmar5i.htm
http://www.cuba.cu/ciencia/citma/ama/museo/exmar6i.htm
http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html
http://www.crystalinks.com/pyramidchina.html
http://www.grahamhancock.com/gallery/underwater/yonaguni.htm
http://eaglesdisobey.org/UnderwaterRuins.htm
http://www.tmeg.com/artifacts/elect/a_elect.htm
http://www.medioambiente.cu/museo/imagen/cruz2.gif

Even National Geographic admits prehistoric civilization are submerged under the sea
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/05/0528_020528_sunkencities.html

Atlantis
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4011545.stm

Info
http://www.nii.net/~obie/historygold.htm

High level, perhaps dangerous level power, terra forming?
http://www.s8int.com/water1.html
http://www.ambergriscaye.com/pages/town/greatbluehole.html
http://www.pureinsight.org/pi/articles/2003/4/28/1582.html
http://www.s8int.com/atomic1.html
http://www.s8int.com/atomic2.html
http://ufoevidence.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=MYTH&action=display&num=1057134096
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/galleries/belize/photo2.html
http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue18/18bermuda.html

The past goes back along ways, Columbus was not the first here
http://www.grahamhancock.com/gallery/mexico/2.htm

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0923/p13s01-stgn.html


Underground tunnels are mentioned in many supposed unrelated teachings. Such as the DSS and Hopi prophecy
http://www.marsearthconnection.com/etot3.html
http://www.crystalinks.com/pyramidchina.html

Redating the sphinx-
http://members.aol.com/davidpb4/sphinx1.html
http://www.lyghtforce.com/Giza/

Underground pictures. Under every layer is a deeper level, Hall of Records, Perhaps Thoths Chamber or SHip-
http://phoenix.akasha.de/~aton/HO-OSIRIS.html

[Kilik]

Magaliths submerged under the sea off of Cuba
http://www.earthfiles.com/Images/news/C/CubaSideScanSonars.jpg
Internal Cross
http://www.cuba.cu/ciencia/citma/ama/museo/imagen/cruz2.gif
http://www.medioambiente.cu/museo/imagen/cruz2.gif
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/11/17/photos/wire-habit.jpg
24 miles across terra forming
http://www.s8int.com/images/bahamas2.jpg
up close, unidentified line
http://www.earthfiles.com/Images/news/C/CubaStoneLine5.jpg
Squared off large block of granite-like stone amid megalithic structures
a half mile deep covering an estimated 10 square kilometers
http://www.earthfiles.com/Images/news/C/CubaStoneSquared6.jpg
http://www.earthfiles.com/Images/news/C/CubaBestPyramid8.jpg
http://www.earthfiles.com/Images/news/C/CubaRockTriangle9.jpg
Belize
http://www.belizenews.com/files/pages/town/artpark/blueholemed.jpg

[Kilik]

Map
http://www.caribbeanmag.com/maps/CentralAmericaMap.jpg


CHinese and Tibetan Pyramid. Kunlun mountains area, between China and Tibet
http://www.crystalinks.com/tibetpyr.gif

I remeber seeing on a show something about the layout of the places where the pyramids were built on different continents, Egypt and mexico ,being 1 100,000th of the earths suface, perhaps using earth meridians, no one knew for sure
http://www.world-mysteries.com/gp_ps.jpg
Egypt
http://www.crystalinks.com/hieroplanes.gif

Global Mythology
http://www.grahamhancock.com/images/hm/c8/p136.jpg
http://www.grahamhancock.com/gallery/cambodia/1.htm
http://www.feedback.nildram.co.uk/richardebbs/essays/angels.htm
http://www.crystalinks.com/emerald.html
http://www.geocities.com/medea19777/minotaur.html

Thoth was the top Egyptian God, but actually an Atlantean. He was Hermes, Jesus Christ, Adam in other lives. After the destruction of Atlantis he and his soul mate Atlanteans went around the world, to Egypt, Pyranees, the Yucutan, and finally Tibet. He and Atlanteans set up proper monastaries for cultivation, and helped raise all kindred human spirits trapped in this plane, to at least the current human body level and the current human body was established I beleive. He put the knowledge and mysteries of enlightenment into secret oracles such as the Tarot card, making it hard to understand by many people, and only the most sinscere would find the way. In this way the skills, methods, and teachings of Atlantis could be preserved until today.
http://www.crystalinks.com/emerald14bw.html

"Preserve them and guard them,
hide them in symbols,
so the profane will laugh and renounce.
In every land, form ye the mysteries.
Make the way hard for the seeker to tread.

Thus will the weak and the wavering be rejected.
Thus will the secrets be hidden and guarded,

held till the time when the wheel shall be turned."

http://www.crystalinks.com/emerald.html

"Now give I the Key to Shamballa,
the place where my Brothers live in the darkness:
Darkness but filled with Light of the Sun
ODarkness of Earth, but Light of the Spirit,
guides for ye when my day is done."
http://www.crystalinks.com/emerald15bw.html

many ki practices originate from Tibetan and chinese mountains
http://www.railriders.com/store/article/18?&archive_link=yes
http://www.hiddenfalls.org/photo/index.html

http://www.hiddenfalls.org/images/scan8aM.jpg
http://www.railriders.com/images/shangri-la3.jpg
http://www.hiddenfalls.org/images/scan04M.jpg
http://www.hiddenfalls.org/images/scan16aM.jpg

[Kilik]

http://www.hiddenfalls.org/images/scan03M.jpg
http://www.hiddenfalls.org/images/scan15aM.jpg
http://www.hiddenfalls.org/images/scan17aM.jpg
http://www.hiddenfalls.org/images/scan11M.jpg
http://www.hiddenfalls.org/images/scan21M.jpg
http://www.hiddenfalls.org/images/scan20aM.jpg
http://www.hiddenfalls.org/images/scan07M.jpg
http://www.hiddenfalls.org/images/scan26M.jpg
http://www.hiddenfalls.org/images/scan29M.jpg
http://www.hiddenfalls.org/images/scan31M.jpg

[Kilik]

So atlantis and ancient civilisations were destroyed, but some remnants of the culture remained. The knowledge had to be kept hidden to kings and emperors while the people with the knowledge could still work in society, either teaching about spirituality, or working to improve the world in other ways. "Gypsies" had the tarot card, which start and end with the fool card, a fool for the universal will. The Kaballah is also related as well as the I ching.
http://www.prs.org/gallery-kabblh.htm
http://www.prs.org/images/linart/m72god.jpg
"This rare cut shows the name of God in seventy-two languages inscribed upon the petals of a symbolic sunflower. Above the circle are the seventy-two powers of God according to the Hebrew Kabbalah. Below are two trees, that on the left bearing the symbols of the planets and that on the right the signs of the zodiac and the names of the tribes of Israel. The esoteric doctrines of the Kabbalah are in alignment with the secret teachings of all the schools of philosophy, but the method by which its secrets are revealed to the wise and concealed from the ignorant is most unusual."

http://chikungintl.com/+-trigramcl.jpg
http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/LoPan.html
http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/LoPan.gif

The Math of the the Egyptian God THoth. It is similar to Chinese philosophy. Thoth was an Atlantean.
http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/240EgMay.gif
http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/eghier.html


Math and structure of the microcosm of the sub atomic realm
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_science/lectures/lec16.html
http://faculty.clintoncc.suny.edu/faculty/Michael.Gregory/files/Bio%20101/Bio%20101%20Lectures/Chemistry/chemistr.htm
http://chikungintl.com/+-trigramcl.jpg

A page with info about the Tarot- http://www.crystalinks.com/tarot.html


Ancient spiritual groups in the past
http://essenes.net/lifein.html
http://www.crystalinks.com/dss.html

http://www.edgarcayce.org/ancient_mysteries/ancient_index.html
Essenes
http://essenes.net/ng.jpg
http://essenes.net/carmelcell.jpg
http://www.crystalinks.com/dsscavefour.jpg
http://www.crystalinks.com/dsscave.gif
http://essenes.net/2cave.jpg
http://essenes.net/siahcells.jpg
http://essenes.net/steps.jpg

[Kilik]

http://essenes.net/ppp.jpg
http://essenes.net/eee.jpg
http://essenes.net/Church%20ship%20toward%20east%20west%20seen..jpg

http://essenes.net/Into%20the%20southern%20slope%20dug%20cave%20above %20the%20cell%20of%20the%20Priors..jpg
http://essenes.net/carmelchurchfront.jpg
http://essenes.net/elijahspring.jpg
http://essenes.net/wadi.jpg
http://essenes.net/vad_arch4.jpg
http://essenes.net/vad_arch16.jpg

[Kilik]

http://essenes.net/vad_arch14.jpg
http://essenes.net/vad_arch25.jpg
http://essenes.net/vad_arch26.jpg
http://essenes.net/vad_arch20.jpg
http://essenes.net/vad_arch13.jpg
http://essenes.net/vad_arch22.jpg
http://essenes.net/aaasssaa.jpg
http://essenes.net/vad_arch15.jpg
http://essenes.net/Monastere_Source.jpg
http://essenes.net/2.gif
http://essenes.net/prostrations.html

Actual historical acount by a scholar from the time of the Essenes. Doesn't mean everything is exactly accurate, but these historians lived in the same time period
http://members.aol.com/Wisdomway/deadseascrolls.htm
http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/DSSEssay.htm

[Kilik]

Some cool video clips here of 1700 year old qigong school from China and Tibet. It contains 72 sets in total.
http://www.threegeese.com/qipage3.html
http://www.possiblesociety.org/dayanqi.htm
http://www.qimagazine.com/qigong.htm
http://www.qiqigong.com/NewFiles/yanmejunsitting.jpg


ki practice is ancient and prehistoric culture.

Check out how similar the Dayan qigong posture at the very bottom of this page, is to Yoga
http://dayan.oompa.net/qigong-syllabus.html
http://dayan.oompa.net/images/qigongs-middle-2.jpg

And 18 Lohan hands are similar to Yoga
http://wongkk.com/chikung/lohan.html

Saluting the Sun, Chinese style
http://wongkk.com/images/chikung/lohan01.jpg

Yoga
http://www.yoga-videos.net/
http://www.yoga-tibet.com/index.html
http://www.yoga-videos.net/images/benyogasmallanimopt.gif
http://www.yoga-tibet.com/yogaanimopt.gif


Qigong
http://dayan.oompa.net/qigong-syllabus.html
http://dayan.oompa.net/qigong.html

http://www.qinway.org/founder.htm
http://www.qinway.org/au1.html
http://www.qinway.org/kwanyin2.jpg
http://www.falundafa.org/eng/media.htm
http://www.randi.org/images/101703-Li.jpg
http://www.falundafa.org/images/falun_m.gif

Hopi prophecy
http://www.crystalinks.com/hopi2.html
http://www.clearwisdom.net/eng/2000/nov/20/scf112000_1.html

http://www.clearwisdom.net/eng/2000/nov/20/Image77.gif
http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2000/11/21/6096.html
http://www.rexresearch.com/usa/usaproph.htm#us7
http://www.think-aboutit.com/Misc/Grandcanyon.html

Interesting article http://www.think-aboutit.com/Misc/Grandcanyon.html

Different cultural practices more related than thought? Throughout history?

http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/illnesswellness/a/YogaPrayer.htm

more "Modern" history
http://www.fsmitha.com/timeline2.html

[RebeccaBradley]

Present an argument here. Go ahead.
Kilik, this is the format:

Make a statement you believe is true.

Present an argument, in your own words, that defends that statement.

Provide evidence for your argument.

Explain carefully how each element of evidence relates to specific points in your argument.


Uh...I don't think Kilik got the point, exactly. Perhaps if you gave him a word limit? One hundred words, one link, and a maximum of two pictures?

[Kilik]

Painting qigong?
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=588&art_id=vn20050112065132853C559183
http://www.buddhanet.net/budart.htm
http://www.buddhanet.net/images/bdiagram.jpg
http://www.twingroves.district96.k12.il.us/Renaissance/University/LeonardodaVinci/StudyMan.html
http://www.twingroves.district96.k12.il.us/Renaissance/University/LeonardodaVinci/LeonardoGifs/StudyOfManLarge.jpg
http://www.artunframed.com/images/artmis69/vincie.jpg
http://www.artunframed.com/images/artmis69/vincie.jpg


Meditation
http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Reln471/ai-lien.htm
http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Reln471/Images471/ai-lien-lg.JPG
http://www.paralumun.com/mirror.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s43993.htm
http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa062998.htm

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/misc/nostradamus/magic-scrying.jpg
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/misc/nostradamus/nostradamus-icon.jpg

[sf108]

umm...can we ban this dude?

Waste of bandwidth.

[Cleon]

In short, no, Kilik is incapable of presenting a coherent argument.

[Alkatran]

Good God, make it stop! AAAAAAAAAUUUUUUGHHHHHHHH!!!!

[c4ts]

That's great, but now explain it in your own words, without pictures, without links, without citations, etc... and DEFEND YOUR OWN ARGUMENTS for a change!

[AnotherSillyAlias]

This is all Bagtaggar's fault. Let's lock him in an elevator with kilik for two hours.

[c4ts]

He called down the s**tstorm...

[GzuzKryzt]

Kilik, if you wanted to prove your "opponents" critism as justified, you have succeeded in a spectacular way.

[GzuzKryzt]

This is all Bagtaggar's fault. Let's lock him in an elevator with kilik for two hours.

Second.

[GzuzKryzt]

This is all Bagtaggar's fault. Let's lock him in an elevator with kilik for two hours.

"Love in an elevator, livin' it up but I'm going down. Love in an elevator..." (Aerosmith)

[bruto]

He called down the s**tstorm...

Jeezum Crow, Kilik! Talk about "unclear on the concept!"

If you're not a bot you must spend hours putting that stuff together. Don't you ever get out?

[Patricio Elicer]

Kilik: You are flooding this thread with images. Be advised that "Flooding" is against the rules. Please stop.

[TheFeds]

The following is, I believe, a particularly well-executed argument on his part:
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/misc/nostradamus/magic-scrying.jpg

I, however, have a rebuttal close at hand:
http://www.magiclibrary.net/rarities/summer-disenchant.jpg

;)


Now, would someone explain to me the significance of posting a Magic card? How dense does one have to be, to try to use a Magic card as proof of anything?

Kilik is a waste of bandwidth all right.

[c4ts]

Damn your Instants, I was going to cast Shatter!

[Nyarlathotep]

This is all Bagtaggar's fault. Let's lock him in an elevator with kilik for two hours.

Hey, give Bagtaggar a break he's a newbie. Anyone with more 'woo experince' could have told him that all him that all he would do is create the 'Kilik Clearinghouse thread', but Bagtaggars a newbie.

But now I bet he has learned.

[Yeah_Right]

Perhaps I shouldn't have been surprised, but Killiks arguments about, well, whatever the heck he was talking about, took forever to download. Even on a DSL line. Needless to say, it's the same tripe he posted in other threads, and thus, so unworthy of examination. Just my opinion of course.

[c4ts]

Trying to change a troll's behavior pattern, or prove one wrong, is a rite of passage. Let no one be protected from the consequences.

[RebeccaBradley]

Reminds me of when my printer went nuts and went on spewing out page after page of gibberish, unstoppably, until I finally pulled the plug. Maybe Kilik could be unplugged?

[Jeff Corey]

Kilik: You are flooding this thread with images. Be advised that "Flooding" is against the rules. Please stop.
That's not just flooding, it's a fonsoon.

[RayG]

Holy sheep-dip Batman, is there anything you don't believe in?

After seeing numerous threads that ramble on about nothing, I suggest Kilik is a variation of one of the following:

Kilik = Qi Lick (a suckup to Qi)

Kilik = Click (as in click on this link)

Take yer pick.

Am I psychic or what...

RayG

[LTC8K6]

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=591954#post591954

Kilik got nowhere here, which is how far he should have gotten at JREF.

[c4ts]

It's from a video game.

[Metullus]

Asking Kilik to post something is about as useful as leaving sugar out for cockroaches.

[bagtaggar]

What Kilik seems to be saying is complicated yet incomplete. He is seeking to understand the deeper nature of things, the essence beyond the visible, the very nature of, well, nature. We start with a notion of Qi, which is by definition, undefinable. Qi is that very “thing” just beyond our understanding, that “thing” that makes things work, the so-called “Invisible Hand”, but not Adam Smith’s version. In short, Qi is the wonder we all find in our little world and the universe beyond as far as we can “see” it.

To place this wonder of ours into perspective, Kilik introduces Yin and Yang; notions which start to widen our horizons beyond just our existence and the things we notice in our daily lives, but to an aggregate experience, one that includes how the whole world comes together. For this Kilik defines laws for us:

“There are laws of the absolute, and laws of the relative. Absolute laws. The same law governs everything from biggest to smallest, beginning and end. Truthfulness, Compassion, Forbearance is all, the base of a pyrymid with spirit at the tip as one. All is vibration. There is also the law of evolution, like 10 steps forwrd 9.9 steps back, SORT OF, and law of love. There is a so called principle of inter- generation, inter-inhibition. And creation, stasis, degeneration, destruction.” …etc

Kilik also mentions other concepts that describe smaller, but equally important aspects of life: God or, “Yod He Vau He”, “Tao”, “wu”, the “mudra” which gives meaning to different hand motions and each finger. However this is all directed to one goal, the goal of making us understand that there is more to life than atoms, and chemical reactions, and pure naturalistic causality.

How can we not see this, Kilik wonders, how can we not understand the depth and meaning in something that has been passed down generation after generation? How can we ignore the fundamental wisdom and truth that the ancients have bestowed upon us? How can we not be moved by the clear and obvious signs of the people before us that build temples and testaments to the forces that made signs and predictions? They have given us so many tools, taught us meditation, yoga, martial arts, all towards one singular goal: to understand that all life is vibrations and movements and forces of something larger than we can understand.

But Kilik has a major flaw in his argument and in his thinking. There is a difference between giving convoluted definitions of concepts that he himself does not understand, nor does anyone else, because frankly they are not meant to be understood. They are meant to be a guide for life in particular societies. They are philosophies; they are teachings of right and wrong; they are mythologies of groups of people. They do not define specific laws of the universe or of nature because they don’t need to, and because they cannot. Qi, Yin, Yang, whatever other Chinese words there are out there, or Hebrew, or Brazilian or Russian, Greek, Latin, none of those words or concepts can give a reason or explanation for hydrostatic equilibrium, speciation within populations, or even how a snowflake forms.

What spirituality does is give us a personal sense of belonging and understanding. It makes us feel as if we are intrinsically connected to everything. But there comes a point in life when you have to separate the things you want to feel from the things that are. When you feel Qi, you have to wonder, what am I feeling? Is this really a fundamental spiritual force? Or is this something that exists only in the mind, a tool to help focus ones thoughts.

When someone says 'lead qi to your fingertips" the implication is to focus the mind on the fingertips to perceive the interaction between Jing and Shen at that point, hence qi.

The purpose is to focus and to understand what you’re doing. The purpose is to feel the subtle nuances of movement necessary to become a successful practitioner of a martial art or related school of thought. You aren’t creating a new force. You aren’t even moving anything. You are simply focusing your mind. You are taking yourself to a place in your mind where you are at peace and at one with your motion.

You cannot measure Qi, much like you cannot measure love. It is an abstract concept. It is not a tangible thing, any more than love is. Life is beautiful, nature is beautiful, the universe, and everything within it is beautiful. Science and logical thinking do not make any of these things any less beautiful, nor do they detract from meaning. Rather, science brings us a more complete, honest picture of this marvel we call reality.

Science teaches us just how connected to this universe we really are. Science shows us that we are of the Earth, that every element that makes our bodies comes from the ground we stand on. It shows us that the Earth was born from a star, that in fact all matter was born within the stars. We are literally star dust. Science measures things that are real. Science looks at what is with objective eyes and attempts to describe the world around us as accurately as possible. The fruits of these efforts can be seen all around us in every day marvels that keep us safe, healthy, informed, get us places on time, entertain us, inspire us, and allow us to practice our Yoga in a peaceful setting surrounded by spiritually tranquil music pouring out of our iPods.

Science takes us places the ancients never dreamed of.

[Ducky]

I'm sorry, I had something pithy to say, but I am still laughing my ass off at Kilik posting a MAGIC CARD AS EVIDENCE!!!!

BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!!!!


Ok, since I got the poll in flame wars about Iamme out of the way, I gotta start a poll about Kilik.

[delphi_ote]

"Love in an elevator, livin' it up but I'm going down. Love in an elevator..." (Aerosmith)

You keep singing Aerosmith and I'm going to lock YOU in a room with Kilik and throw away the key.

[Jeff Corey]

Bagtaggar,
That's just so cosmic or cosmetic or something, I could just plotz!

[delphi_ote]

*cough*

I ask that no one even argue with what he's presenting until due time. Let's just try to get him to present it in the right way.

Is anyone going to try? I don't even know where to start. I guess one place is as good as another. Maybe we could try this sentence:

The more consciouss of the eternal manifestiation of the great priciple, that which creates, consitutes, governs, sustains and contains all, the more in accordance to it's way and flow someone can be, in my understanding.

I have no idea if this is true or not, but we've got to follow through on the ULTIMATE SKEPTIC CHALLENGE of 2005!


Make a statement you believe is true. (Check... ish?)

Present an argument, in your own words, that defends that statement.

Provide evidence for your argument.

Explain carefully how each element of evidence relates to specific points in your argument.

I will be the official judge. Whoever is the most convincing wins. Ready... go!

[clarsct]

Damn. All the good Magic-card jokes are taken...*sigh*

OH! WAIT!

I'll Detonate the thing and do damage to him with it!!!

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


That'll teach him.

[DevilsAdvocate]

What Kilik seems to be saying is complicated yet incomplete. He is seeking to understand the deeper nature of things, the essence beyond the visible, the very nature of, well, nature.Thanks for posting what I did not take the time to post while I was posting rational arguments and kittens.

Although Kilik seems to be able to simply post his general thought, I think it beneficial to try to understand where Kilik is coming from rather than just yelling "troll". It seems that what Kilik is trying to demonstrate is there are similarities between ancient thoughts that add up to more than the sum of their parts. People have done strange and mysterious things--particularly in ancient times. There must be SOME reason for these mysterious things. And when we look at them, we see similarities. Which means there must be some underlying truth or meaning behind the reasons that people, all over the world and in independent cultures, have done similar strange things.

Science can’t explain love or give purpose of life in a meaningful way, although science can’t make these things irrelevant. So science has gaps and holes. Ancients did weird mysterious things, apparently to express ineffable ideas like love and the meaning of life. If we look at these and find similarities, then those similarities MUST be pointing to some underlying truth of these mysteries! Which is very exciting and compelling. And is probably the reason that many of the cites Kilik links to exist.

Putting together similarities to search for a universal cause is fine academic work. But at some point you must define what you are looking for, where the paths you are following lead to, and what conclusions you can find and their significance.

I don’t meant to attempt to make Kilik’s arguments, or even hypotheses, for him, but I would like to actually hear what he has to say in these more significant questions, and perhaps my guessing of his intention will allow him to put his thought together into some coherence that we can understand.

[c4ts]

Damn. All the good Magic-card jokes are taken...*sigh*

OH! WAIT!

I'll Detonate the thing and do damage to him with it!!!

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


That'll teach him.

As long as you're playing Red, you could use Aladdin to steal it from him instead.

[Odin]

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
I thought maybe this might work, maybe kilik would respond positively, but somewhere in the back of my mind I knew this would be what happened.

[Odin]

OK, I'll carry on as if Kilik is serious, despite the fact that he's just unloaded all his stock posts from around the internet and demonstrated his trollness.

Kilik-
TOO MUTCH INFORMATION, TOO MANY PICTURES. YOUR POSTS WOULD TAKE AGES TO FULLY READ- EDIT THEM!

[clarsct]

As long as you're playing Red, you could use Aladdin to steal it from him instead.

continuing the derail..

One could play blue, then you could steal it from in in several different ways, and animate artifact...then have it smack him to death.

Just the mental image of a scrying mirror smacking the crap outta some guy is worthwhile....

[Kiless]

The only reason I'm posting here is in the hope of bumping this to two pages to read some of the amusing posts that remain...and by doing so, have no need to visit this particular image-filled page again.

I don't really find it amusing to urge someone to flood and run the risk of getting them outright banned, however.

[Ducky]

The only reason I'm posting here is in the hope of bumping this to two pages to read some of the amusing posts that remain...and by doing so, have no need to visit this particular image-filled page again.

I don't really find it amusing to urge someone to flood and run the risk of getting them outright banned, however.


To be fair, the OP spells out a format that wouldn't have been flooding, however the poster should have known better than to give an open fora to Kilik to run amok in.


Oh and *bump.*

Just for you Kiless ;)

[Ducky]

One more...

[kmortis]

Fowlsound,
What is this "bump" thing anyway?

[MRC_Hans]

Bump is to add a post to a thread to keep it high on the list. When you view forums, threads are ordered per latest post. Thus, a thread that has had no recent traffic sinks down into oblivion, and people who want to keep it alive may bump it.

Hans

[Belz...]

Chinese character for Qi

[snip]

" Qi has been subjected to this kind of cross cultural parsing error to the point of obscurity. No-one who understood what is implied by Qi would say they don't beleive in it. Saying you don't beleive in Qi is like saying you don't beleive in 'relationship' or "influence".

Qi is an old idea.[...]

Why am I not surprised ?

[sphenisc]

[QUOTE=delphi_ote;1263617]*cough*
Is anyone going to try? I don't even know where to start. I guess one place is as good as another. Maybe we could try this sentence:

[QUOTE
The more consciouss of the eternal manifestiation of the great priciple, that which creates, consitutes, governs, sustains and contains all, the more in accordance to it's way and flow someone can be, in my understanding.
/QUOTE]

I have no idea if this is true or not, but we've got to follow through on the ULTIMATE SKEPTIC CHALLENGE of 2005! /QUOTE]

Okay, I'm game...

Firstly, I'll attempt to rewrite the sentence in phrases, to which we can then ascribe meaning.

'
It is my understanding that:
The more conscious (someone is) of the eternal manifestation of the great principle, the more in accordance to its way and flow someone can be.
The great principle is defined as that which creates, constitutes, governs, sustains and contains all.
The word 'its' refers to the great principle and it (the great principle) therefore also has properties of 'way' and 'flow'.

'

I'll ignore the 'It is my understanding' bit as Kilik's understanding is not a place I would ever want to go - I'll take the rest of the statements as a starting point.

The 'great principle' is apparently not a principle in the normal sense of the word - principles generally don't 'create', 'govern' or 'sustain'. It may be equivalent to the 'universe' if you accept that the universe

a) creates all - all observed 'creative' events appear to be the result of universe-based causes. If we accept that, then all created things are created by the universe, assuming that if a thing is created by a part(s) of the universe then it can be said to be created by the universe. The only exception may be the universe itself. If the universe has a separate creation then the great principle may include 'the universe and that which created it.'

b) constitutes all - this appears compatible with the definition of the universe.

c) governs all - given that there appear to be universal 'laws', and these laws are applied to all parts of the universe, we can loosely say that the universe 'governs' all.

d) sustains all - there are various definitions of the word 'sustain', I'll guess we're using 'To keep in existence; maintain'. It is apparent that, in general, things that exist tend to keep existing, at least in the sense that although a discrete entity may disappear, it components parts can theoretically be located elsewhere. This seems to refer to the conservation law(s), though I'm not sure if this applies to virtual particles disappearing into the quantum foam, can anyone clarify? Anyway, the fact that conservation laws are observed in the universe means that we can loosely say the universe sustains all things.

e) contains all - this seems self-contradictory, in that a container is normally regarded as distinct from the the thing it contains. If it contains all, then that leaves nothing left to do the containing. Some kind of recursive definition may get round this problem for the 'great principle', but I'm not sure how it could be applied to the universe, can the universe be said to 'contain all'?
Given that the universe changes with time, it may be said to have a 'flow'. If you wish to insist that flow requires a consistent (directional) change in state with time then I suppose that increasing entropy may be regarded as a 'flow'.

As to 'way', well the endpoint of the universe is [probably] heatdeath, so the 'route' to that endpoint may be regarded as the 'way' of the universe. You can regard the way of the universe as the sequence of actual events in the universe and the flow as the increasing entropy associated with those events.

If we accept that the 'great principle' is equivalent to the universe, then the 'eternal manifestion' of the 'great principle', is presumably equivalent to the aspects of the universe which can (potentially) be observed, i.e the observable universe.


So to interpret my original rephrasing we have:

The more conscious someone is of the observable universe,the more in accordance to its journey of increasing entropy and eventual heatdeath someone can be.

To interpret my interpetation:

'It's easier to destroy things if you're not in a coma.'

So Kilik, was that what you were getting at?

[kmortis]

Bump is to add a post to a thread to keep it high on the list. When you view forums, threads are ordered per latest post. Thus, a thread that has had no recent traffic sinks down into oblivion, and people who want to keep it alive may bump it.

Hans

So...this would be considered a "bump"?

[LTC8K6]

Bump
Bumpage
Bumpnage
Bumpity-bump
Bump-ditty-bump-bump
TTT (to the top)
BTTT (back to the top)

[moopet]

Possibly this thread should be ranamed to "kilik's holiday snaps"?
I'd like to say something critical or constructive of this "argument" as per the original post, but I can't see the wood for the trees in the way.
I - and I guess I'm not alone - have NO IDEA what you're trying to say.

[Metullus]

More like "Kilik's Greatest Hits". Or "Misses". Whatever.

I'm fairly certain that at least 90% of what he posted in the GREAT FLOOD OF YESTERDAY he has posted before in his various threads about Mu, Atlantis, submerged civilizations, Nostradamus, and the Prognostications of Fudd. Little is new, no context provided, no position articulated. Classic Kilik.

[bagtaggar]

Come on Kilik! I believe in you! You can do it!

[moopet]

More like "Kilik's Greatest Hits". Or "Misses". Whatever.

I'm fairly certain that at least 90% of what he posted in the GREAT FLOOD OF YESTERDAY he has posted before in his various threads about Mu, Atlantis, submerged civilizations, Nostradamus, and the Prognostications of Fudd. Little is new, no context provided, no position articulated. Classic Kilik.
I'm pretty sure these: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1263317&postcount=10 are holiday snaps. Though they'd be cooler if we could see him actually skiing in Atlantis.

[BillC]

Nah, they come from these people: http://essenes.net/

[Kilik]

Yes, I think the universe consists of the Great Principle, but I think the universe consists of dimensions not, well normally anyways, veiwable

[Bronze Dog]

Yes, I think the universe consists of the Great Principle, but I think the universe consists of dimensions not, well normally anyways, veiwable
So, how do you know these not-normally-viewable dimensions exist?

[delphi_ote]

It's easier to destroy things if you're not in a coma.
At some level, he seems to agree with your interpretation, so now for the rest of it:


Provide evidence for your argument

Explain carefully how each element of evidence relates to specific points in your argument.


That should be pretty easy to follow through on. Let's see if he can do it!

[bagtaggar]

Yes, let's structure that for him, help him out:

Yes, I think the universe consists of the Great Principle, but I think the universe consists of dimensions not, well normally anyways, veiwable

-Now, present an argument
(No links or quotes)

-Provide evidence for your argument
(No links, only argument. You may use some quotes.)

-Explain carefully how each element of evidence relates to specific points in your argument.
(quote your elements of evidence, but specific, strong elements. Try to keep it down to three strong elements. Then, present an argument for each piece of evidence. Again, no links, and only quote if absolutely necessary.)

Ok? Sounds good. I believe you can do this Kilik, I'm counting on it.

Make us proud.

[delphi_ote]

We'll get a semi-coherent argument in this thread or die trying!!!

I think there is a high probability it really will kill us.

[skepHick]

We'll get a semi-coherent argument in this thread or die trying!!!


Can I have your liver? Thanks.

[c4ts]

Yes, let's structure that for him, help him out:



-Now, present an argument
(No links or quotes)

-Provide evidence for your argument
(No links, only argument. You may use some quotes.)

-Explain carefully how each element of evidence relates to specific points in your argument.
(quote your elements of evidence, but specific, strong elements. Try to keep it down to three strong elements. Then, present an argument for each piece of evidence. Again, no links, and only quote if absolutely necessary.)

Ok? Sounds good. I believe you can do this Kilik, I'm counting on it.

Make us proud.

You fool! If he sees that he'll ignore every step and spam all over again because he's not even self-aware!

[PatKelley]

I think it would be more fruitful to make Kilik mad-libs...

1. (A field of parapsychological study)
2. (A medium, or short if no medium is found)
3. (a proper noun or place-name)
4. (a verb)
5. (A number)
6. (A period of time)
7. (A random website)
8. (A random webiste)
9. (A supernatural claim)
10.(Random savior figure)
11. (pronoun)
12. (Proper place name)











I think that _____1____ is true
because ____2_____
said ___3___
would ___4___
on the ___5___ of ____6____
Look! Here is evidence on ____7_____ (A random website)
supported by _______8______ (A random website)

Now how can you deny _____9_____?
Obviously ____10____ knew this when ___11___
came to ____12____ (Proper place name).

This way we have the short form, and Kilik only has to keep posting keys for these numbers.

[c4ts]

1. (A field of parapsychological study)
Necromancy.

2. (A medium, or short if no medium is found)
That guy on "The Dead Zone."

3. (a proper noun or place-name)

Uranus.

4. (a verb)
Suck.

5. (A number)
666.

6. (A period of time)
Seconds.

7. (A random website)
http://www.superdickery.com/dick/1.html

8. (A random webiste)
http://www.angelfire.com/alt/c4ts2101/tract.html

9. (A supernatural claim)
Ectoplasm tastes like Krazy Glue.

10.(Random savior figure)
Captain Lou Albano.

11. (pronoun)
She.

12. (Proper place name)
Segovia.


I think that necromancy is true because that guy on "The Dead Zone" said Uranus would suck on the 666 of seconds. Look! Here is evidence on http://www.superdickery.com/dick/1.html supported by http://www.angelfire.com/alt/c4ts2101/tract.html !

Now how can you deny ectoplasm tastes like Krazy Glue? Obviously Captain Lou Albano knew this when she came to Segovia.

[petre]

Chinese character for Qi
http://www.buqi.net/gb/1/pics-1/qi.gif

(VERY BIG *SNIP*)


Wow, that is a lot of data posted, and all of it failed to prove your initial assertion that this is the chinese character for Qi. If it actually is, someone probably could have found a pretty well respected source to cite and been done with it in a fraction of the time.

All the same, given your first post's title, I had been kind of hoping for a more interesting assertion than identifying the chinese character for a concept.

[Ducky]

Wow, that is a lot of data posted, and all of it failed to prove your initial assertion that this is the chinese character for Qi. If it actually is, someone probably could have found a pretty well respected source to cite and been done with it in a fraction of the time.

All the same, given your first post's title, I had been kind of hoping for a more interesting assertion than identifying the chinese character for a concept.


Well let's see:

there's This (http://www.mytattooink.com/tattoo-pics/chinese-symbols-words.htm) and this (http://www.logoi.com/notes/symbols.html) and this (http://www.all-about-feng-shui.co.uk/symbols/feng-shui-symbols.html) and this. (http://www.buqi.net/gb/1/chi.html)

The last one seems to have the symbol Kilik is referring to. It also states that it is a Japanese character, and it appears Kilik's picture is missing some parts of the calligraphy. Of course, none of those links have the same symbol for qi, so the question remains.

Since we have different websites with different symbols, I thought I would get to the heart of the matter and ask the guy I work with who's from Beijing. He states the one listed at the second link is correct for "Qi" which means "Chess." The link I provided says it means "banner." I defer to my coworker, who is actually from China on this one.

Due to a language barrier, I couldn't ascertain if that word also means "Chi" or life force.


ETA: I just pwned Kilik.

ETA2: I take back my statement about the japanese character. While the character on the link I provided says it is Japanese, now that I've spent 5 minutes with Sheng-Lu, I have a better understanding. The form Kilik presented is actually the SIMPLIFIED version of Qi Gong. The complicated version is just that, much more intricate. It would seem that Kilik is correct in his statement that that is the symbol for Qi Gong.

[Azrael 5]

Can someone get in touch with Jambo372,I thought he was nuts 'til I read Kilik.
Im on Dungeons and Dragons and second Boss..can you tell me should I use the amulet or pick up potion,Kilik?"!:p

[petre]

Well let's see:

there's This (http://www.mytattooink.com/tattoo-pics/chinese-symbols-words.htm) and this (http://www.logoi.com/notes/symbols.html) and this (http://www.all-about-feng-shui.co.uk/symbols/feng-shui-symbols.html) and this. (http://www.buqi.net/gb/1/chi.html)

The last one seems to have the symbol Kilik is referring to. It also states that it is a Japanese character, and it appears Kilik's picture is missing some parts of the calligraphy. Of course, none of those links have the same symbol for qi, so the question remains.

Since we have different websites with different symbols, I thought I would get to the heart of the matter and ask the guy I work with who's from Beijing. He states the one listed at the second link is correct for "Qi" which means "Chess."

Due to a language barrier, I couldn't ascertain if that word also means "Chi" or life force.


ETA: I just pwned Kilik.

Since no article preceeded the affirmation, it could have meant "[Here is a] Chinese character for Qi". The caption of that picture supports that assertion, though note that the rest of the page provides an argument against claiming it is THE (one and only) Chinese character for Qi.

And, the cite seems fairly respectable. A published account would have been a closed case, but I think I would count this as a successful argument.

[Ducky]

Since no article preceeded the affirmation, it could have meant "[Here is a] Chinese character for Qi". The caption of that picture supports that assertion, though note that the rest of the page provides an argument against claiming it is THE (one and only) Chinese character for Qi.

And, the cite seems fairly respectable. A published account would have been a closed case, but I think I would count this as a successful argument.


Go back up and read my second edit. I went back to my Chinese friend and hashed it out. It seems I was mistaken on one point.

And you are correct, it is not the ONLY character for Qi. Or Qi Gong for that matter.


ETA: It also took me less than 10 minutes to get that. Kilik could certainly have provided something reputable in that time.

[ruach1]

Wow, that is a lot of data posted, and all of it failed to prove your initial assertion that this is the chinese character for Qi. If it actually is, someone probably could have found a pretty well respected source to cite and been done with it in a fraction of the time.
It is the character for "qi" but it is either antiquated or incomplete. I have seen it before, but the upstroke on the bottom downstroke is usually bigger, and there is much 'more' on the top middle. The pictogram character is supposed to represent something like a teapot such that when you place it on a heat source, it heats the water and makes it active. The idea here is that when one cultivates qi, then it will become active and usable like hot water for tea and so on. You can kinda' see the picture in the 'this, this, this, and this,' links by petre.

[kalen]

Jackie Chan: chinese and quite a character!

[Flatworm]

many ki practices originate from Tibetan and chinese mountains...


,,,Followed by not less than 14 pictures of mountains, presumably from China and Tibet...

Kilik, try to understand: It is very unlikely that anyone in this forum is going to demand photographic evidence for the existence of China, Tibet, or the mountains therein.

[Kilik]

WTF are you talking about now? Pictures added in?

I got that "qi" image off of this site and this forum

[Ducky]

WTF are you talking about now? Pictures added in?

I got that "qi" image off of this site and this forum


And you didn't show your source.

I think the big question is:

WTF are YOU talking about?

[Odin]

Kilik, which ONE paranormal view do you think has the most evidence for it?

[Kilik]

I take images that have been used in a negative way, and use them in a positive way, see post 6 on this thread, that is where I got the image. It was being attempted to be used negatively, so now I use ut in a positive way
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=37447

[Ducky]

I take images that have been used in a negative way, and use them in a positive way, see post 6 on this thread, that is where I got the image. It was being attempted to be used negatively, so now I use ut in a positive way
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=37447


And how exactly does that support anything you say?

[Kilik]

What do you mean?

It is an image of what is being discussed if it is acurate, and even if it's not, it still gives an idea. You want both words and images.

[Ducky]

What do you mean?

It is an image of what is being discussed if it is acurate, and even if it's not, it still gives an idea. You want both words and images.


Do you understand what providing a source link to support your ideas actually means?

[Kilik]

I put links and images

[Metullus]

Kilik, try to understand: It is very unlikely that anyone in this forum is going to demand photographic evidence for the existence of China, Tibet, or the mountains therein.
On the other hand, I would like to see photographic evidence of Delaware, if he has it.

[Kilik]

http://www.all-about-feng-shui.co.uk/prodimages/symbol-qi.gif

there's another one.

How the hell did you ever pwn me because I posted images of characters for "qi"?

[Ducky]

http://www.all-about-feng-shui.co.uk/prodimages/symbol-qi.gif

there's another one.

How the hell did you ever pwn me because I posted images of characters for "qi"?


Lose your sense of humor?

Yes that's nice, that one of the symbols for Qi.

You post links and images. In abundance. Yet you never seem to actually SUPPORT what you say.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

I put links and images

Kilik, do you really not understand why everyone thinks you're a little loose up top? Can you not grasp the points people have been making?

If you wish people here to take any serious notice of what you're saying you are going to have to present your evidence the way you have been asked. Flooding the forum with nonsense links and pictures of anonymous mountains simply isn't going to work.

A number of people have told you how you can present your ideas, all you have to do is follow those directions. If you don't it can only mean that either you are a troll or you are simply not right in the head.

[Odin]

Kilik, can you complete this sentence-

I am posting on the JREF forum because...

Here are some example endings-

...I want to troll.
...I want to promote Graham Hancocks new book.
...I want to share my profound thoughts with the world.
...the world would be better If people thought like me.
...I want to virtually beat up the sceptics with my killer arguments.

[bagtaggar]

Kilik, please just use the format provided. It's all that we ask.

[Kilik]

I put stuff out there , out on the internet, that is good to know and understand

I'll clear up the Qi confusion-

The first character shown, without "rice" added, was the old traditional way of writing qi, steam, or vapour. The second image I showed, was the modern character for qi, steam and rice

What was the exact format to use, and what is wrong with what has been done already?

[bagtaggar]

No, Kilik, please, just use the format we asked. It's not that hard. You'll get so much further if you just use the suggested format.

-Statement
-Argument for statement
-Evidence for statement
-Reasons evidence matters regarding argument

And please, NO LINKS.

[bagtaggar]

Take your time if you have to. Please. Just say "ok you guys, I'm going to put together my argument for you and return when I'm ready."

We would all respect you so much more if you were capable of that.

[Kilik]

If I never used links or images?

I always found my threads to be more boring and tedious if you can't see at all what might be on the links

[bagtaggar]

Kilik, the rest of us here have stated we don't need links or images. It doesn't mean anything to us.

We want to know what you have to argue. That's it. Please, just use the format suggested.

[burrahobbit]

I dont know why you spend so much time arguing past kilik. Either youse are masochists or just have too much time on your hands. It is evident even to a total newbie like me that the probability of anyone getting even an iota of sense out of Kilik and the likes is slightly lower than that of the Discovery Institute accepting evolution.

I strongly recommend ignoring the posts of the trolls. Atleast where we are discussing the Holocaust or Homeopathy where there is a point to be made there is an argument for countering the argument. With Qi and Sumerian artificts etc it is a sheer waste of bandwith

And me with a dial up connection :sour:

[Metullus]

Masochists. Its a club. The real pros are Rolfe and Badly Shaved Monkey over in the Homeopathy threads. Fowlsound, on the other hand, while demonstrably a masochist, is not what a rational mind would call patient.

[delphi_ote]

Kilik, the rest of us here have stated we don't need links or images. It doesn't mean anything to us.

We want to know what you have to argue. That's it. Please, just use the format suggested.

*grits teeth* We will do it, bagtagger. I've got your back. Should we stick to the original assertion or should we go with the Qi symbol assertion?

[Ducky]

Masochists. Its a club. The real pros are Rolfe and Badly Shaved Monkey over in the Homeopathy threads. Fowlsound, on the other hand, while demonstrably a masochist, is not what a rational mind would call patient.


But I'm cute and cuddly.


OK point taken, I will endeavor to be more patient.

[c4ts]

Careful, people. Troll baiting is seriously addictive.

[bagtaggar]

*grits teeth* We will do it, bagtagger. I've got your back. Should we stick to the original assertion or should we go with the Qi symbol assertion?

You and me, delphi_ote. I say we stick with the Qi thing. It's simpler and more tangible.

[Taffer]

Nice post, Bagtag. I'll just mention a few things, though.

Kilik seems unable to distinguish between 'internal' and 'external' Qi, which are two different concepts. Also, as you note, he ascribes a generic "qi" to anything spiritual in Daoist tradition, which is simply wrong. He also fails to understand the meaning behind the word "Dao" (not that I claim to, either, but at least I have studied its meanings). He links unrelated things because they have a similar outcome, not because they have a similar workings. He links Qi Gong with Yoga because both involve breathing and slow movements, but fails to realise that they do not both deal with Qi. He also fails to realise that, as I've said time and time again, Qi and Qi Gong are different things. He keeps calling Qi practices Qi Gong, and using practices from Qi Gong as evidence of similar Qi practices in other cultures, but fails to realise that Qi Gong uses Qi, just as Shaolin Gong Fu uses Qi.

As to your note of Qi being an 'educational aid' (as it were), this may be true now, but I fully believe that when these ideas were being developed, Qi (and other things, like Dao) were thought of as real things.

ETA: Opps...didn't realise this thread went into the 3rd page. The Post I am refering to in this reply is here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1263576#post1263576).

[Taffer]

ETA2: I take back my statement about the japanese character. While the character on the link I provided says it is Japanese, now that I've spent 5 minutes with Sheng-Lu, I have a better understanding. The form Kilik presented is actually the SIMPLIFIED version of Qi Gong. The complicated version is just that, much more intricate. It would seem that Kilik is correct in his statement that that is the symbol for Qi Gong.

Is it the character for Qi or Qi Gong?

ETA: Never mind, after 2 seconds research I discovered that the simplified Chinese character for "Qi" is the one which Kilik posted. It is also a 'side' (a character that can make up a more complex character) that means roughly "gas". The traditional Chinese character is http://www.buqi.net/gb/1/pics-1/zhengkai.gif

[DevilsAdvocate]

You and me, delphi_ote. I say we stick with the Qi thing. It's simpler and more tangible.Sounds good. I like the presented format

-Statement
-Argument for statement
-Evidence for statement
-Reasons evidence matters regarding argument

Can we get the 'Statement' that will be discussed? I'm still not sure what it is. It would be a good start. :)

[Sherman Bay]

What is this "bump" thing anyway?Bump is the prime force in the universe. It is both positive and negative. Simultaneously vibrating in the cockpits of multiple planes, it is both internal and external. Scientists are baffled as to why it works, but it does. Long thought lost, it has been revived thru the power of prayer and intensive thought processes using secret chants known only to ancient seers, modern trolls and tootsie rolls.

Bump is the source of all wisdom and the light of the world. It is cross-cultural parsing error to the point of obscurity, a metaphysical model that is basic to Chinese and Tibetan philosophy. Bump is the cottage in your cheese, the lump in your throat, the hump in your week. The vital energy, the connection to mother earth and father time. The Qi, the P, the T, and the A. It is the Fu, the Mu and the Ju, light and dark, high and low, up and down. It is the in-between (but only on alternate Wednesdays).

Bump is the magnetic field of your memory and the tesla coil of your esophagus aligned on the north and south axis of the terminator perambulator. Bump is the cultivation of the mind's place in the universe, open to the eternal power of all creation, flowing, never ceasing, til the rivers run dry and the champagne goes flat. It is the ebb and flow, the tide and tow, the hub and spoke of all being. It is fire, water, earth, air and phlegm, flim and flam, frick and frack, jack and off.

Bump is the pyramid of razors, the bane of wolves, the teeth mark in time. It is the name of God, the reverse of Dog, and the nemesis of Cat. It is always true, except when false.

It is the Internet.

(Sorry, no links available.)

[delphi_ote]

The OFFICIAL statement:

Chinese character for Qi
http://www.buqi.net/gb/1/pics-1/qi.gif

Kilik's first in this thread. It makes as much sense to start at the beginning as it does anywhere else.

Let's get some evidence that that is in fact the character for Qi. Maybe a quote an authority or some histrory from a legitimate source...

[Taffer]

The OFFICIAL statement:



Kilik's first in this thread. It makes as much sense to start at the beginning as it does anywhere else.

Let's get some evidence that that is in fact the character for Qi. Maybe a quote an authority or some histrory from a legitimate source...

As I said this is the simplified Chinese character for Qi. It also has the meaning of "gas", when part of a more complex character.

[UrsulaV]

I dont know why you spend so much time arguing past kilik. Either youse are masochists or just have too much time on your hands. It is evident even to a total newbie like me that the probability of anyone getting even an iota of sense out of Kilik and the likes is slightly lower than that of the Discovery Institute accepting evolution.


I've said it before, I'll say it again--Kilik is EXACTLY like a sore tooth.

You poke it. You shouldn't. You know it hurts. You know poking it will only make it hurt worse. But nevertheless, you poke it AGAIN. Because maybe it'll hurt less this time. Because it can't possibly hurt as bad as you remember, can it? Crap, it can. *wait approximately three seconds* *poke* Bugger! Still hurts. Well, maybe three seconds from now...

It's not logical, it's not pretty, but it's just one of those human behaviors...

[uruk]

I really like the video of the fat guy pushing the skinny guy around via a stick tied to his belly. What was that supposed to show?

[delphi_ote]

As I said this is the simplified Chinese character for Qi. It also has the meaning of "gas", when part of a more complex character.

Alright. Now can we get some authoritative sources for that? I found a couple links. So here's what we have so far:

-Statement
This is the Chinese symbol for Qi:
http://www.buqi.net/gb/1/pics-1/qi.gif
-Argument for statement
Qi is usually translated "air" or "breath." This character means "gas", when part of a more complex character. Apparently it can also mean "steam," "vapor," or "air" as well.
-Evidence for statement
The following links contain relevant information about Qi:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%B0%94#Noun
http://www.csicop.org/si/9509/chi.html
-Reasons evidence matters regarding argument

One more section to go!

[Taffer]

Alright. Now can we get some authoritative sources for that?

I don't know if I would count this as authoritiative, but I simply asked my girlfriend. How would she know? She's Chinese.

[David Swidler]

Bump is the prime force in the universe. It is both positive and negative. Simultaneously vibrating in the cockpits of multiple planes, it is both internal and external. Scientists are baffled as to why it works, but it does. Long thought lost, it has been revived thru the power of prayer and intensive thought processes using secret chants known only to ancient seers, modern trolls and tootsie rolls.

Bump is the source of all wisdom and the light of the world. It is cross-cultural parsing error to the point of obscurity, a metaphysical model that is basic to Chinese and Tibetan philosophy. Bump is the cottage in your cheese, the lump in your throat, the hump in your week. The vital energy, the connection to mother earth and father time. The Qi, the P, the T, and the A. It is the Fu, the Mu and the Ju, light and dark, high and low, up and down. It is the in-between (but only on alternate Wednesdays).

Bump is the magnetic field of your memory and the tesla coil of your esophagus aligned on the north and south axis of the terminator perambulator. Bump is the cultivation of the mind's place in the universe, open to the eternal power of all creation, flowing, never ceasing, til the rivers run dry and the champagne goes flat. It is the ebb and flow, the tide and tow, the hub and spoke of all being. It is fire, water, earth, air and phlegm, flim and flam, frick and frack, jack and off.

Bump is the pyramid of razors, the bane of wolves, the teeth mark in time. It is the name of God, the reverse of Dog, and the nemesis of Cat. It is always true, except when false.

It is the Internet.

(Sorry, no links available.)

My hat goes off to you, sir.

Now I must explain to my puzzled coworkers why I howled as tears streamed down my cheeks. All in a day's surfing.

[bagtaggar]

Yes, that was rediculously funny. Bravisimo.

As for Kilik, what do you guys think, is he taking our advice and working something out, has he tucked tail and ran, or, more likely, he only has access to a computer when he goes to work at the dry cleaners?

[vbloke]

http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showthread.php?t=44416

[Cleon]

http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showthread.php?t=44416

That was back in September. (And hardly surprising.)

[vbloke]

must be something to do with Kilik warping my ability to read things

[Cleon]

must be something to do with Kilik warping my ability to read things

Nah, it's the Atlanteans.

[vbloke]

Nah, it's the Atlanteans.

or a lost tribe of astronomer priests

[Belz...]

I put links and images

That is the best description that ANYONE could ever have thought of to sum you up. Good work!

[Belz...]

If I never used links or images?

I always found my threads to be more boring and tedious if you can't see at all what might be on the links

That's because you don't have any arguments, to start with.

[Kilik]

http://www.hdmartialart.com/wushuvid/100yrsabre.wmv

the site the clip was on said this about it


This is late master Liu Zhiqing, often called "the Father of Moving Dragon". Liu Zhiqing was from Gu'an County in Hebei and studied Bagua with Liu Baozhen (Dong Haichuan's disciple); later on he also learnt Tongbei and went to Wutai Mountains in Shanxi where he studied Three Palms of Moving Dragon from Fengqing, an old buddhist monk. On the basis of his MA experience Liu Zhiqing created Moving Dragon style which included both empty hand as well as weapon methods, with big saber being most well known.

[petre]

http://www.hdmartialart.com/wushuvid/100yrsabre.wmv

the site the clip was on said this about it

Does that support your declaration of what the symbol for Qi looks like?

[Kilik]

The symbol for qi has already been shown in it's original form, and it's modern form

You don't believe me? I have to find a site to prove it?

[richardm]

If I never used links or images?

I always found my threads to be more boring and tedious if you can't see at all what might be on the links

More boring and tedious? Wow.

[delphi_ote]

The symbol for qi has already been shown in it's original form, and it's modern form

You don't believe me? I have to find a site to prove it?

We are trying to show you how you can present the things you believe in a way we will understand and you can defend. The symbol for Qi is just an example.

[delphi_ote]

-Statement
This is the Chinese symbol for Qi:
http://www.buqi.net/gb/1/pics-1/qi.gif
-Argument for statement
Qi is usually translated "air" or "breath." This character means "gas", when part of a more complex character. Apparently it can also mean "steam," "vapor," or "air" as well.
-Evidence for statement
The following links contain relevant information about Qi:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%B0%94#Noun
http://www.csicop.org/si/9509/chi.html
And someone fluent in Chinese also confirmed that our assertion is correct.
-Reasons evidence matters regarding argument


See? We've already done most of the work. Even if you disagree with that argument up there, it's clear what it is we're trying to say and what evidence there is backing it up. You could attack the logic or the evidence, but it's at least all there clear as day.

[Odin]

Just noticed that there does appear to be a unifying background to kiliks posts (thoth from ATLANTIS, started LANGUAGE, TAROT, QI GONG and built PYRAMIDS) maybe we should focus on that first.

[petre]

The symbol for qi has already been shown in it's original form, and it's modern form

You don't believe me? I have to find a site to prove it?

If your link isn't related to your initial declaration, then posting it was a waste of time.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

Just noticed that there does appear to be a unifying background to kiliks posts (thoth from ATLANTIS, started LANGUAGE, TAROT, QI GONG and built PYRAMIDS) maybe we should focus on that first.

This thoth must have been a seriously busy guy!

[Taffer]

Why does Kilik believe an Egyptian god was a real person?

[AnotherSillyAlias]

Why does Kilik believe an Egyptian god was a real person?

Doesn't sound any crazier than some of the other stuff he believes!

[Odin]

Why does Kilik believe an Egyptian god was a real person?

The emerald tablets said so. (http://www.crystalinks.com/emerald.html)

I think this is the "unifying woo" behind kilik's threads.

[delphi_ote]

Gold Leader: It's no good down here, I can't maneuver!
Gold Five: Stay on target.
Gold Leader: We're too close!
Gold Five: Stay on target!

http://guidesmedia.ign.com/guides/617662/images/Porkins.jpg

-Reasons evidence matters regarding argument

[c4ts]

Why does Kilik believe an Egyptian god was a real person?

Because Graham Hancock spews volumes about Thoth.

http://www.grahamhancock.com/library/hm/c4-1.htm

[Belz...]

Why does Kilik believe an Egyptian god was a real person?

Doesn't he believe in everything ?

[Correa Neto]

Nope.

Just in the things he knows are true...

[Kilik]

http://members.tripod.com/~arescott/pathways/pyrofchi.html

[delphi_ote]

http://members.tripod.com/~arescott/pathways/pyrofchi.html

Reasons evidence matters regarding argument

[AnotherSillyAlias]

http://members.tripod.com/~arescott/pathways/pyrofchi.html (http://members.tripod.com/%7Earescott/pathways/pyrofchi.html)

You don't give up easily do you kilik. Another link to yet another site full of nonsense with absolutely no credible evidence to support their "theories".

I like your consistency.

[RebeccaBradley]

From Kilik's latest link: In China, as in Egypt and Mexico, archaeologists present us with a time line that tells us that relatively unsophisticated, unorganized people suddenly came together and created the greatest monuments of the ancient world. In Egypt, we are told that within the span of a few generations they went directly from cave dwelling to pyramid building. In China we’re told that there were just small villages, and then, after a couple centuries of nearly continuous warfare, suddenly there appeared an empire which built one of the greatest monuments of the world: the Great Wall of China.

Kilik, this is NOT what archaeologists say. This is a pile of crap.

Archaeologists have traced rich processes of increasing complexity through thousands of years in all those areas, and many others. Each stage of complexity has had its achievements, and left its traces. There's no "suddenly" about it. Rubbish like this not only insults and misrepresents archaeologists, it insults and demeans the peoples of the past.

Go read a book about real archaeology, Kilik - find out what archaeologists are really saying. You might even find it more interesting than your current diet of ignorance and lies.

[delphi_ote]

*sigh* And we were so close to a coherent argument in this thread.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

*sigh* And we were so close to a coherent argument in this thread.

I think you'll be waiting for a very long time if you expect coherent argument and kilik to exist in the same thread.


(An ancient Atlantean living down the road told me this.)

[c4ts]

If you really miss him, go bother him on the Graham Hancock forums.

[Odin]

If you really miss him, go bother him on the Graham Hancock forums.
He seems to have redirected all of his spamming energy over to here. (http://friends.portalofevil.com/sfs.php?si=3&fi=U10717)

[c4ts]

I can't imagine why. All they ever do is make fun of him. He must be some kind of a masochist.

[delphi_ote]

I think you'll be waiting for a very long time if you expect coherent argument and kilik to exist in the same thread.


(An ancient Atlantean living down the road told me this.)

I'm practicing my concentration so I can join the Yellow Bamboo guys. If I keep this thread on subject, I should be able to launch the Mars mission with my mind soon.

[vbloke]

http://friends.portalofevil.com/sp.php?si=3&fi=U10717&ti=1000653883&pi=1000653883

http://friends.portalofevil.com/sp.php?si=3&fi=U10717&ti=1000653883&pi=1000656180


http://friends.portalofevil.com/sp.php?si=3&fi=U10717&ti=1000653883&pi=1000656293

[c4ts]

So which one of you is "Kilik?"

[vbloke]

I am the anti-Kilik