Acupuncture at Stanford

[PaulK]

I just learned today that Stanford University Hospital uses acupuncture in its anesthesiology department. If they could prove some efficacy, wouldn't that qualify for the challenge? I see "acupuncture" is listed as a paranormal item but I wonder if anesthesia fits. Has Stanford University every applied for the challenge and should I encourage my "highly-placed source" to do so?
Paul

[Mangel]

I would argue no. The people who do Acupuncture generally don't claim it to be a 'paranormal' nature.
Because there is physical interaction with the body, rather than say simply laying on hands, I think that also muddies the water, as there may well be something that happens, even if it isn't what they exactly believe.
And to test it we'd have to get someone to put needles in random places...urgh.
(1st Post. Yay)

[Mojo]

I would argue no. The people who do Acupuncture generally don't claim it to be a 'paranormal' nature. Homeopathists, in general, don't claim that homeopathy is paranormal either (check out Dr. MAS's "challenge," (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=37744) for example). They claim the effects are real. This doesn't prevent homeopathy being considered for the challenge. Because there is physical interaction with the body, rather than say simply laying on hands, I think that also muddies the water, as there may well be something that happens, even if it isn't what they exactly believe.
And to test it we'd have to get someone to put needles in random places...urgh. Acupuncture does seem to be slightly better supported by the results of studies than many other sorts of CAM, but it is seems that this is at least partly to do with the difficulty of producing a convincing placebo that can be effectively blinded. In fact, in a recent study it was found that sticking the needles into random points worked just as well as using the "proper" acupuncture points. (1st Post. Yay)And welcome to the forum! :)

[ruach1]

Mojo:
Acupuncture does seem to be slightly better supported by the results of studies than many other sorts of CAM, but it is seems that this is at least partly to do with the difficulty of producing a convincing placebo that can be effectively blinded. In fact, in a recent study it was found that sticking the needles into random points worked just as well as using the "proper" acupuncture points.
Mojo,

I would love to get a link for your last statement. I myself have seen evidence for your first two statements but not the last. :)

[Mojo]

I'll have a look for it. I'm sure I've linked to it elsewhere in the forum.

ETA: This (http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/293/17/2118) is it, I think. I think the "sham acupuncture" mentioned in the abstract involved sticking the needles elsewhere than the acupucture points.

[ruach1]

http://jama.ama-assn.org

Yes, this was for reducing migraine headache pain. If JAMA says it, I guess we can believe it. Yet search the JAMA website for other TCM related things, and you'll see other things worth while.

[rwguinn]

I'll have a look for it. I'm sure I've linked to it elsewhere in the forum.

ETA: This (http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/293/17/2118) is it, I think. I think the "sham acupuncture" mentioned in the abstract involved sticking the needles elsewhere than the acupucture points.
I personally think (hypothesize) that accupuncture works on a distraction basis-- If you have a headache, and someone clobers your fingers with a hammer, the headache "goes away"
Reminds me of "Shorty", the ranch hand. Had an injury as a kid that cused him to walk with a limp well into his 40's. One day, however, he was walking normally. When asked why, he replied "I hurt my good knee. ever tried to limp with bothlegs?"

[rjh01]

Shorty would probably be walking very slowly, and painfully.

[rwguinn]

Shorty would probably be walking very slowly, and painfully.
Absolutely right--but not limping...:D

[CFLarsen]

The people who do Acupuncture generally don't claim it to be a 'paranormal' nature.

It doesn't matter what they claim. Is it of a paranormal nature? Yes, it is.

Because there is physical interaction with the body, rather than say simply laying on hands, I think that also muddies the water, as there may well be something that happens, even if it isn't what they exactly believe.
And to test it we'd have to get someone to put needles in random places...urgh.
(1st Post. Yay)

They have, and they got the same result. So, it doesn't matter where you stick'em. No meridians, then.

[Jyera]

Under American Academy of Medical Acupuncture.
http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/findadoc/index.html

I found
>80 members registered as acupuncturist in NY (new york?)
>127 members registered as acupuncturist in CA (california?)
Most of them MD. Which I take to mean medical doctors.

I wonder why acupuncture is still considered paranormal when it is apparently receives support by the medical doctors.

[Mojo]

I wonder why acupuncture is still considered paranormal when it is apparently receives support by the medical doctors.It's not so much whether the acupuncture has an effect, even if just placebo. It's more all the stuff about meridians and so forth: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/293/17/2118 No difference was detected between the acupuncture and the sham acupuncture groups

[Rolfe]

I wonder why acupuncture is still considered paranormal when it is apparently receives support by the medical doctors.I can get you lists of doctors and vets who practise homoeopathy too. Doesn't make it any the less paranormal. If they can prove that shaken-up sugar pills are in any way different from non-shaken-up sugar pills, they'll get the money. Funny how none of them ever seem to want to try for it.

Rolfe.

[Jyera]

It's not so much whether the acupuncture has an effect, even if just placebo. It's more all the stuff about meridians and so forth: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/293/17/2118Agree with your point of view. Effects are just effects. if it is there, it is there.

Do I suppose that if someone proves that Meridians do exist, then
the person can win the JREF million dollar?

[Jyera]

I can get you lists of doctors and vets who practise homoeopathy too. Doesn't make it any the less paranormal. If they can prove that shaken-up sugar pills are in any way different from non-shaken-up sugar pills, they'll get the money. Funny how none of them ever seem to want to try for it.

Rolfe.
I would rather you show me a list of vet practising acupuncture.
Was that you who say you could make a horse fall by inserting a needle on the neck of the horse?

[drkitten]

Do I suppose that if someone proves that Meridians do exist, then the person can win the JREF million dollar?

I suspect that that would depend very strongly on the wording of the claim, and in particular on what the agreed-upon definition and properties of "meridians" are. In principle, the answer should be "yes," but one of the difficulties with studying this stuff seriously is often that by the time one can pin the woos down to a definite description of what they're doing, all the paranormal stuff seems to have leaked away....

[Rolfe]

I would rather you show me a list of vet practising acupuncture.
Was that you who say you could make a horse fall by inserting a needle on the neck of the horse?I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same names on the list, but the RCVS has so far not taken leave of its senses sufficiently to list acupuncturists as well. Though I have to say this is probably just because acupuncture is a johnny-come-lately (veterinary acupuncture was invented in the 1970s) and they haven't yet banded together into a "faculty" to give each other impressive-looking diplomas.

I have three times had horses fall down on me (well, not literally "on", fortunately) as a result of sticking needles into their necks. Out of hundreds and hundreds of times sticking needles into horses' necks (to collect blood samples). I really don't think I could do it to order.

The point is that there are one or two specific instances where sticking needles in a patient can produce quite dramatic effects. However, these effects can be explained in normal physiological terms, and their existence doesn't prove that any of the woo nonsense spouted by the acupuncturists is real.

However, you'd have to be careful how you designed a test of acupuncture. It's not impossible that someone could select out these effects and demonstrate them repeatably enough to make a good shot at the million bucks.

Rolfe.

[Mojo]

Under American Academy of Medical Acupuncture.
http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/findadoc/index.html

I found
>80 members registered as acupuncturist in NY (new york?)
>127 members registered as acupuncturist in CA (california?)
Most of them MD. Which I take to mean medical doctors.

I wonder why acupuncture is still considered paranormal when it is apparently receives support by the medical doctors.Apparently there are over 50,000 medical doctors in the Greater New York Metropolitan Area, so it seems that acupuncture only receives support from a very small percentage of them.

[TheBoyPaj]

I wonder why acupuncture is still considered paranormal when it is apparently receives support by the medical doctors.

Medical doctors sometimes prescribe placebo, too. Those pills don't do anything either.

[Jyera]

It isn't so much about the number of MD supporting acupuncture.
But the fact that there are MD supporting acupuncture.

[Mojo]

It isn't so much about the number of MD supporting acupuncture.
But the fact that there are MD supporting acupuncture.I would imagine that you can find MDs holding pretty much any belief held by the population in general. Doctors are people, after all.

Saying "there are MDs supporting acupuncture", as if this somehow validates it, is an appeal to authority. What is important is not who supports an idea, but what evidence supports it.

[Jyera]

Medical doctors sometimes prescribe placebo, too. Those pills don't do anything either.
I don't quite understand...

Are you implying that since MD prescribe placebo that do nothing...,
it is okay that they use acupuncture that does nothing...
Then perhaps they can also prescribe homeopathy that does nothing ?

And ironically over here, we scream at people speaking out in support of dubious stuff like homeopathy. Saying they perpetual the dangerous idea that homoepathy is effective, and cause people to die.

Shouldn't they(MD association) forbid MD from Practicing (not just saying) "dangerous" stuff?

[Mojo]

I don't quite understand...

Are you implying that since MD prescribe placebo that do nothing...,
it is okay that they use acupuncture that does nothing...
Then perhaps they can also prescribe homeopathy that does nothing ? Placebos don't "do nothing". The placebo effect is well documented. If you give someone a treatment that they think is effective, they will feel better, whether the treatment is genuine or not.

And ironically over here, we scream at people speaking out in support of dubious stuff like homeopathy. Saying they perpetual the dangerous idea that homoepathy is effective, and cause people to die. Well, actually, you were the one who brought up the idea that acupuncture should be considered legitimate because it is supported by MDs: Originally posted by Jyera (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1299694#post1299694)
I wonder why acupuncture is still considered paranormal when it is apparently receives support by the medical doctors.

Shouldn't they(MD association) forbid MD from Practicing (not just saying) "dangerous" stuff?Certainly.

[Jyera]

I would imagine that you can find MDs holding pretty much any belief held by the population in general. Doctors are people, after all.

Saying "there are MDs supporting acupuncture", as if this somehow validates it, is an appeal to authority. What is important is not who supports an idea, but what evidence supports it.
Agree it doesn't validate.
I'm not arguing that it validate acupuncture.
But the facts are there and MD's authority isn't an illusion.

But ironically over here, we scream at people speaking out in support of dubious stuff like homeopathy/acupuncture. Saying they perpetual the dangerous idea that homoepathy/acupuncture is effective, and cause people to die.

Shouldn't they(MD association) forbid MD from Practicing (not just saying) "dangerous" stuff? Why don't they?

Especially when acupuncture has been listed as paranormal in JREF challenge
Which essentially means. "It doesn't exists".

[Mojo]

Agree it doesn't validate.
I'm not arguing that it validate acupuncture.
But the facts are there and MD's authority isn't an illusion. It is if they're wrong.

[Rolfe]

Maybe medical authorities should forbid doctors from practising or promoting non-evidence-based methods. However, the fact is that they don't. Therefore the fact that one or more doctors can be found to support a practice doesn't actually say anything about whether or not it works.

Rolfe.

[TheBoyPaj]

I don't quite understand...

Are you implying that since MD prescribe placebo that do nothing...,
it is okay that they use acupuncture that does nothing...
Then perhaps they can also prescribe homeopathy that does nothing ?


My point was that we already have an example of doctors using a treatment which they know does nothing (placebo pill) because they think that it will be beneficial for their patient. Playing Devil's advocate, what is the difference if they choose acupuncture as their method of placebo?

Personally, I don't like it. I think it is in danger of encouraging a treatment which many other, less scrupulous, practitioners are willing to sell without concerning themselves over whether the patient would be better served by real medicine.

At least if an MD prescribes a placebo that looks like a real drug, you perpetuate the idea that people are best served by real doctors.

[rjh01]

I think there is a difference between having a service that can be used if requested and encouraging people to use this service.

[casebro]

Under American Academy of Medical Acupuncture.
http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/findadoc/index.html

I found
>80 members registered as acupuncturist in NY (new york?)
>127 members registered as acupuncturist in CA (california?)
Most of them MD. Which I take to mean medical doctors.

I wonder why acupuncture is still considered paranormal when it is apparently receives support by the medical doctors.

And some doctors even believe in suicide. Ever heard of Dr. Kevorkian, M.D.?

[TheBoyPaj]

I think there is a difference between having a service that can be used if requested and encouraging people to use this service.

But how many times have you heard the "it must work because doctors use it" argument? Some people feel that, when doctors prescribe a treatment, it becomes validated.

[rjh01]

Not a very good argument. 'Appeal to authority' I believe you call that.

Like what was said above, And some doctors even believe in suicide. Ever heard of Dr. Kevorkian, M.D.? Does this make suicide a valid medical treatment for depression or anything else?