Which craft?

[Charlie in Dayton]

...so it all started with my e-mail...

I was plowing through the inbox, mercilessly consigning helpless electro-missives to their doom in the trash folder, when one of them caught my eye with its plaintive message...

Subject: How To Cast Effective Spells Easily...

Apparently, it was my last chance to buy a book of exactly how to do it. My curiosity whetted (especially whether or not they offered bells and candles), I decided to take the plunge and see what was what... (http://www.witchcraftexposed.com/get2.php)

First of all, apparently there's a differmints between magic and magick...other than the spelling...hmmm...no blood sacrifices...no selling of the soul...money...happpiness...health...love...friend s...revenge...power...well, the offerings seem to be the standard stuff...apparently this stuff is so powerful that a secret talisman is needed to prevent its abuse...they need your email address...and of course, whether you're into black or white magick (what, no technicolor magique?).

So after deciding that I could risk the mysterious attacks that might come my way if I practiced deviousness, I filled in a fake name that sounded suitably mystic, and imagined up an email address...I had to steel myself and hang onto reality tight...this was well and truly a wooicane, Force 12 or better...

I was offered over 127 quick'n'eazy magiq (hey, if they can spell it their way, I can spell it mine) spells and rituals...apparently everyone else's spells'n'rituals are a big farce...the old daggers and bat's blood are apparently out of date. But the new versions? fast Fast FAST magiqual relief...only five minutes and they can teach you how to do it?

There are so many examples cited, it's hard to know where to start...practicing witchcraft in solitary (forget going blind, you'll turn into a troll!)...the multiple planes of existence (paper, glider, prop, jet)...energy for life from the sun (magiqual solar cells!)...personal energy exposed (hey, there's laws against that)...chackras (apparently, there is no magickal spell checker)...oils for promoting wealth (I suggest large quantities of light sweet crude)...protective crystals to repel mental and physical evildoers (do the Yellow Bamboo Boys know about these?)...

Apparently there's so much good mojo out there that one book just won't hold it all! They offer a second book for FREE (even though it's worth over $90...they claim)...rituals for casting money, creating a personal wishing well, attractiveness to the opposite sex ("Yeah, babe, I'm a 'leventeenth-level mage...wanna see my magic wand?")...

And the testimonials...one dude was really sick, with fever and the shakes...but with the help of the healing energy exercises, he felt pretty good the next morning, and a couple of days later he was just fine!!! Could you ask for more positive proof?

...ooooooo...how to make your own voodoo dolls...

And if I go to their secure server (it's the one with the dreamcatchers hanging off the hard drive), for a grand total of $37 they'll send me the first two books AND EVEN A THIRD ONE , detailing the templates for perfect spells (can I save this template in MSWord so my computer won't crash any more?) and instructions on how to design your own spells!

And to top all of this off, if it doesn't work to your satisfaction, there's a 90-day money-back guarantee, and you get to keep the free offers (books 2 and 3)!!!

And all this comes from the Olde Country...namely, Vienna (which they spell Wien) Austria...

So what the heck...go on over, slip in something faked, and check this scheisse out...and tell 'em Garsko sent ya...

[c4ts]

.hmmm...no blood sacrifices...no selling of the soul

Arg! They took all the fun out of it!

[Hawk one]

Personally, I'm in favour of sacrifcing the virginity, not the virgin.

[Belz...]

Personally, I'm in favour of sacrifcing the virginity, not the virgin.

But sacrificing virgins is fun!!

[Dancing David]

But sacrificing virgins is fun!!

Only if you do it by placing the wand in the cup, firmly grasping the pentacle with both hands and howling madly.

[kmortis]

Only if you do it by placing the wand in the cup, firmly grasping the pentacle with both hands and howling madly.

Blessed Be, my brother, Blessed f***ing Be.

[MRC_Hans]

Mmm, I let my old partner Trinity (the shaman) look at it. She wasn't impressed.:rolleyes:

Hans

[kmortis]

Speaking of the spelling of magick/magic. The reason for the final 'k' was so that Uncle Aleister Crowley could have his gematria work out correctly. I forget what he was trying to equate to magic, but he had to add the 'k' to get it to work.

The whole thing about 'magick' be real, or to seperate it from Stage Magic or whatever is all ad hoc.

[Beth]

First of all, apparently there's a differmints between magic and magick...other than the spelling

A friend of mine explained to me that magic refers to what stage magicians and illusionists do and magick with a 'k' refers to casting spells, and other things that believers do. I'll leave it to you to decide if that's a differmints.

[kmortis]

A friend of mine explained to me that magic refers to what stage magicians and illusionists do and magick with a 'k' refers to casting spells, and other things that believers do. I'll leave it to you to decide if that's a differmints.

1) see my post above yours
2) From Here (http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/)
Magic(k)
Charms, curses, necromancy, levitation, etc. Yes, the stuff from fairy tales. In other words, the same definition of "magic" that has been around for centuries before the tree-huggers-with-typewriters got ahold of it. (Aleister Crowley, incidentally, added the "k" to make his gematria fit.)

Some where at home, I think I have Uncle Al's description of his whole gematria thing with 'magic'. I'm not terribly interesting in wading through his Book of Magic to find it, unless there's an uproar over this.

[Trinity]

Mmm, I let my old partner Trinity (the shaman) look at it. She wasn't impressed.:rolleyes:

HansTypical crap page. If they could cast half those spells they would be greatest wizards in all history. I do not think spells work at all. Never met anybody who could make a spell work unless the victim knew about spell. If you think i am a real wizard and i say you will feel sick - you feel sick.

Trinity

[kmortis]

Typical crap page. If they could cast half those spells they would be greatest wizards in all history. I do not think spells work at all. Never met anybody who could make a spell work unless the victim knew about spell. If you think i am a real wizard and i say you will feel sick - you feel sick.

Trinity

There is a reason why, just before I decided to openly declare myself as agnostic/atheistic, when people would ask me what books I would reccommend to them as good beginners guides to MAGE-ick (I'm not making this one up...that's how some are pronouncing it now), I recommend any of the Discworld novels by Terry Prachett, but especially the ones featuring Granny Weatherwax. Headology is the only "magick" I still believe in.

[MRC_Hans]

Discworld is cool, although when you've read a couple, you get sort of fed up, IMHO.

Ok, make that half a dozen ;).

Hans

[kmortis]

Discworld is cool, although when you've read a couple, you get sort of fed up, IMHO.

Ok, make that half a dozen ;).

Hans

I dunno, I'm up over a dozen, and I still find Prachett funny. (I'd use the 'h' word, but I can't spell it)

[steenkh]

I am also a Discworld fan. I constantly wonder how Pratchett can keep going from book to book and still not slip into a habit.

[Pope130]

If we accept this definition, that "Magic" is what stage magicians (like The Amazing Randi) do, and that "Magick" is casting spells and curses and such, then the difference is that "Magic" works, "Magick" does not.

Robert

[LotusMegami]

Alohamora is a good one, very reliable. Sectumsepra is tricky, but highly effective in combat. Expellimarius is a good disarming spell for pacifists.
Do not attempt Crucio unless you are certain of your ability.

Do not read Snape/Lupin fanfiction. By all that is sacred, do not read Snape/Lucius fanfiction.

In all seriousness, I have attempted to cast magical spells. I liked the ritual. I liked the feelings. It filled a need.

But it didn't actually accomplish anything.

[delphi_ote]

If they could cast any of those spells they would be the first wizards in all history.

I fixed your post.

[Soapy Sam]

Mmm, I let my old partner Trinity (the shaman) look at it. She wasn't impressed.:rolleyes:

Hans

Shaperson, shurely?

[LordoftheLeftHand]

LotusMegami Expellimarius is a good disarming spell for pacifists.

I know lots of "spells" that will disarm a pacifist.

LLH

[c4ts]

And if a stranger should attack you with a banana, you take out the gun and shoot him.

[kmortis]

And if a stranger should attack you with a banana, you take out the gun and shoot him.


I ususally pull the lever to release the tiger.

Although, sometimes I favor the "eat the banana" approach.

[Dancing David]

If we accept this definition, that "Magic" is what stage magicians (like The Amazing Randi) do, and that "Magick" is casting spells and curses and such, then the difference is that "Magic" works, "Magick" does not.

Robert


I suggest that you read Magick in Theory and Practise before you make such a bold assertions. If you define 'spell casting' as the only definition then you haven't read the book. According to Crowley the purpose of magick is to discover you 'true will' and live your life as you wish.

He defines 'magick' as being mainly cerimonial invokation of dieties for the purpose of sel fullfillment, spell casting is defined as 'socery' which is causing changes in other people perception.

m(40)+a(1)+g(3)+i(10)+c(3)+k(20)=77

[Pope130]

Dancing David,
If it works, do it. Take the challenge, win the million dollars.

Robert

[delphi_ote]

m(40)+a(1)+g(3)+i(10)+c(3)+k(20)=77

And 77=7*11, which is GK. That stands for "just kidding."

[Dancing David]

Dancing David,
If it works, do it. Take the challenge, win the million dollars.

Robert


Perhaps you should reread the challenge rules or my post,


'cerimonial invokation of dieties for the purpose of sel fullfillment': (which is one of my better typing goofs) : ceremonial invocation of dieties for the purpose of self fullfillment

and

'discover your 'true will' and live your life as you wish.'

Would only be super natural events by a real strech of the imagination.

Perhaps it is you who should do some research and practise and then get back to us about it.

[Dancing David]

And 77=7*11, which is GK. That stands for "just kidding."


Your a lot closer than you think, seven is the number of material mainfestation and eleven is the number of magic.

As a side bar, i am a sceptic, and a nihilist, there are different tools to discuss different aspects of the human perception. Some of them are intuitive, 'magical', and usualy devoid of anything other than emotional expression of mental concepts.

Using the number 77 to denote something is no stranger than using the word 'tree' to denote the object that we refer to as a tree, the tree does however produce more tangible evidence than 77.

[Pope130]

Dancing David,
So are you saying that beleiving in and practicing "Magick" makes you feel good about yourself, but has no measurable objective effect? In what manner does this differ from conventional religion?
If it is just religion then you should be posting in that forum, not the General Skepticism and Paranormal.

Robert

[delphi_ote]

Some of them are intuitive *snip*

Yes. Spelling magic with a 'k' is certainly intuitive.

*snip* emotional expression of mental concepts.
:bs:

[H3LL]

Magic(k) must be real. I know a kleptomaniac who after being given a spell in prison didn't steal for 6 months. I also know a horse that turned into an field.


I'll get my coat....


.

[Dancing David]

Yes. Spelling magic with a 'k' is certainly intuitive.


:bs:


I am so glad that you like to read what ever you want into posts.

I am very sure that I stated spelling magic with a k is intuitive, but if you get off on your midguided interpretation of what I said then more power to you.

And perhaps you should examine your preconceptions about what i said, if you are so gung ho to interpret what I say then perhaps you are the psychic.

[Dancing David]

Magic(k) must be real. I know a kleptomaniac who after being given a spell in prison didn't steal for 6 months. I also know a horse that turned into an field.


I'll get my coat....


.


Just like the Xians , you read what you want into what another person wrote, , does sulf fullfillment mean that a horse turned into a field?

Some people are so uptight, a person merely talks about something that makes you uncomfortable and you think they are a woo.

Did I say that you could turn a prince into a frog? No I did not , but carry on your merry way.

[kmortis]

David,
Putting aside percieved or real attacks for the moment, it still comes down to magic demonstrably works (it decieves its audience into thinking something appears to have happened), MAGE-ik does not. As much as I respect Uncle Al, I also recognize that he was a bit of a charltan. He put the 'k' at the end to fit the gematria. If gematria worked, it would have produced the results that Al wanted without his manipulation.

[delphi_ote]

I am so glad that you like to read what ever you want into posts.

I am very sure that I stated spelling magic with a k is intuitive, but if you get off on your midguided interpretation of what I said then more power to you.

And perhaps you should examine your preconceptions about what i said, if you are so gung ho to interpret what I say then perhaps you are the psychic.

The above quip was meant to be humorous, not an attack.

But maybe if you would explain what you're trying to say in plain English (without resorting to nonsense phrases like "emotional expression of mental concepts") my interpretations wouldn't be so "misguided."

[luchog]

I suggest that you read Magick in Theory and Practise before you make such a bold assertions. If you define 'spell casting' as the only definition then you haven't read the book. According to Crowley the purpose of magick is to discover you 'true will' and live your life as you wish.

He defines 'magick' as being mainly cerimonial invokation of dieties for the purpose of sel fullfillment, spell casting is defined as 'socery' which is causing changes in other people perception.

m(40)+a(1)+g(3)+i(10)+c(3)+k(20)=77
Actually, Crowley created his system of "magick" in order to thumb his nose at the Golden Dawn, sell books, and discover an increase in funding for his drug-and-prostitute habit; and live his life more opulently at the expense of credulous idiots. His "true will" seemed to involve a lot of heroin and venereal disease, as well as dying of complications from his chronic respiratory problems brought on by his diseases and drug use.

[H3LL]

Just like the Xians , you read what you want into what another person wrote, , does sulf fullfillment mean that a horse turned into a field?

Some people are so uptight, a person merely talks about something that makes you uncomfortable and you think they are a woo.

Did I say that you could turn a prince into a frog? No I did not , but carry on your merry way.

Well done. You managed to read such a lot into two very old schoolboy jokes. None of what you say above makes any sense what-so-ever. Did you pick the words at random or did you need help?

I don't think you are woo. I think you need a good carpenter to help you remove that enormous chip on your shoulder.


.

[emperorchaos]

Before I realized I was an atheist I was a middle-school student struggling with faith. I turned to witchcraft or Wicca or the Olde Religion or whatever bogus name they call it. By the time I was in high school, I had realized that I believed in no gods, spirits, et cetera, but I still wanted to cast spells and curse people.

I was never that into it. But interestingly enough, the only time I ever actually did a spell was to curse this older guy who, along with his friends, would beat me up because I was an atheist. I did the curse in the early morning before school, and after school that day I told him that I had cursed him and that all the evil he had wrought upon me would come back on him in some form or another. Fifteen minutes later he discovered that his father had committed suicide. It was pure chance, and ironically it was after this that I really became a skeptic.

Needless to say, for the next few years of my high school career, I was labeled a Satanist; however, I was never really bothered at school by anyone and still had a lot of friends.

That's a long anecdotal story that really has no point to the general discussion going on in this thread... I just thought I'd share.

[Dancing David]

David,
Putting aside percieved or real attacks for the moment, it still comes down to magic demonstrably works (it decieves its audience into thinking something appears to have happened), MAGE-ik does not. As much as I respect Uncle Al, I also recognize that he was a bit of a charltan. He put the 'k' at the end to fit the gematria. If gematria worked, it would have produced the results that Al wanted without his manipulation.


I thought Crowley was much more cynical, like his calling himself 'the evilest man in the world', my assumption was that sometimes he was writing literature where he manipulated the plot to provide the outcome.

He too created an illusion of something having happened. BTW what makes you think that sex magic does not produce the desired outcome?

[Dancing David]

The above quip was meant to be humorous, not an attack.

But maybe if you would explain what you're trying to say in plain English (without resorting to nonsense phrases like "emotional expression of mental concepts") my interpretations wouldn't be so "misguided."

AAAAAAARG!

I am very concrete in my thinking, my humor process was not active, sigh.

BTW that is plain English, it is like discussing why Bifrost is a rainbow or Superman is a virgin.

I often misread humor, esp. A. Camel's and apparently yours.

BTW that is plain english, it is like discussing why Superman is a virgin or if DareDevil is truely anti-social, and about as meanigful.

[Dancing David]

Well done. You managed to read such a lot into two very old schoolboy jokes. None of what you say above makes any sense what-so-ever. Did you pick the words at random or did you need help?

I don't think you are woo. I think you need a good carpenter to help you remove that enormous chip on your shoulder.


.

AAAAAAARG!

I am very concrete in my thinking, my humor process was not active, sigh.

I often misread humor, esp. A. Camel's and apparently yours.

[Dancing David]

Before I realized I was an atheist I was a middle-school student struggling with faith. I turned to witchcraft or Wicca or the Olde Religion or whatever bogus name they call it. By the time I was in high school, I had realized that I believed in no gods, spirits, et cetera, but I still wanted to cast spells and curse people.

I was never that into it. But interestingly enough, the only time I ever actually did a spell was to curse this older guy who, along with his friends, would beat me up because I was an atheist. I did the curse in the early morning before school, and after school that day I told him that I had cursed him and that all the evil he had wrought upon me would come back on him in some form or another. Fifteen minutes later he discovered that his father had committed suicide. It was pure chance, and ironically it was after this that I really became a skeptic.

Needless to say, for the next few years of my high school career, I was labeled a Satanist; however, I was never really bothered at school by anyone and still had a lot of friends.

That's a long anecdotal story that really has no point to the general discussion going on in this thread... I just thought I'd share.

Perhaps you were responding to the lack of balance in that person's life, sure made your reputaion as an atheist.

[kmortis]

I thought Crowley was much more cynical, like his calling himself 'the evilest man in the world', my assumption was that sometimes he was writing literature where he manipulated the plot to provide the outcome.

He too created an illusion of something having happened. BTW what makes you think that sex magic does not produce the desired outcome?


Well, bear in mind, his mother is the one to give him the nickname "the Beast". That's gotta do something to a kid's psyche. I like Al's sense of humor was wonderful, especially for a Victorian era man. I liked his ability to tweak the status quo. Knowing this, I still recognize that, at his base, he was a charlatan.

If by "sex magic working" you mean: "you and your partner get off", I whole heartedly agree. Or that it produces a kid, I agree (if that was the Intent). If you mean "by utilizing sex in the process of a magical spell" then, no, I don't think it works. This being said, I've taken enough pages out of Uncle Al's playbook to think that if you can convince some young lady (or guy, if you swing that way) that the sex is a work of magick, then go for it...even if the Intent isn't fulfilled, it's a lot of fun trying, ;)

[Tricky]

I was never that into it. But interestingly enough, the only time I ever actually did a spell was to curse this older guy who, along with his friends, would beat me up because I was an atheist. I did the curse in the early morning before school, and after school that day I told him that I had cursed him and that all the evil he had wrought upon me would come back on him in some form or another. Fifteen minutes later he discovered that his father had committed suicide. It was pure chance, and ironically it was after this that I really became a skeptic.

Needless to say, for the next few years of my high school career, I was labeled a Satanist; however, I was never really bothered at school by anyone and still had a lot of friends.
Wow, that really was an amazing coincidence. I'm glad it didn't turn you into a woo. Heck, one hit like that and your reputation can be made for life. Jeanne Dixon's only claim to fame was that she "predicted" that JFK would die in office. Although she was wrong in almost all of the particulars, nobody remembers that, only that she made a prediction that sort of came true.

About your tormentor, I can't help but wonder what happened to him after that. Obviously his home life was not a storybook one. Did he love his father? Had his father taught him to be a bully?

Anyway, welcome to the land of the thinking, EC. There are any number of us here who have experience with Wicca (my wife is Wiccan). When she and I were on our honeymoon, we went to the Museum of Witchcraft in Boscastle England. It was an extremely interesting place, with lots of exhibits devoted to Crowley. He was maybe not the evilist man in the world, but certainly one of the most self-indulgent.

As for spells, don't get me started...

[luchog]

If by "sex magic working" you mean: "you and your partner get off", I whole heartedly agree. Or that it produces a kid, I agree (if that was the Intent). If you mean "by utilizing sex in the process of a magical spell" then, no, I don't think it works. This being said, I've taken enough pages out of Uncle Al's playbook to think that if you can convince some young lady (or guy, if you swing that way) that the sex is a work of magick, then go for it...even if the Intent isn't fulfilled, it's a lot of fun trying, ;)
The vast majority of people I know who are into "sex magic" are focussed on the "sex" part, and only add the "magic" because it make it easier to get the "sex", especially unusual "sex" practices.

I do know a few who are all about the "magic", but they're seriously strange, and in one case, a complete fluffbunny. They don't get much in the way of "sex" either.

I do get into some of the "sex magic" stuff. Couldn't give a rat's a$$ about the "magic", but some of the techniques make "sex" a lot more interesting if you can stick with them. :D

[kmortis]

The vast majority of people I know who are into "sex magic" are focussed on the "sex" part, and only add the "magic" because it make it easier to get the "sex", especially unusual "sex" practices.

I do know a few who are all about the "magic", but they're seriously strange, and in one case, a complete fluffbunny. They don't get much in the way of "sex" either.

I do get into some of the "sex magic" stuff. Couldn't give a rat's a$$ about the "magic", but some of the techniques make "sex" a lot more interesting if you can stick with them. :D

Yes they are. I guess in a way it is sex magic.....

[delphi_ote]

Blood sugar crazy. She has it.