According to Torah : Jews don't deserve a homeland !!

[AN@S]

Jews have no right to have a state.
I am not saying that because I am an Arab, there are alot of Jews says that Jews don't deserve a homeland according to their holy book (Torah)!!!

First, let me talk about the difference between JUDAISM and ZIONISM:

JUDAISM VERSUS ZIONISM
Judaism believes in One G-d who revealed the Torah. It affirms Divine Providence and, accordingly, views Jewish exile as a punishment for sin. Redemption may be achieved solely through prayer and penance. Judaism calls upon all Jews to obey the Torah in its entirety including the commandment to be patriotic citizens.

Zionism
rejects the Creator, His Revelation and reward and punishment. Among its fruits are the persecution of the Palestinian people and the spiritual and physical endangering of the Jewish people. It encourages treasonous, dual loyalty among unsuspecting Jews throughout the world. At its root Zionism sees reality as barren and desacralized. It is the antithesis of Torah Judaism.

There is a vile lie, which stalks the Jewish people across the globe. It is a lie so heinous, so far from the truth, that it can only gain popularity due to the complicity of powerful forces in the "mainstream" media and educational establishment.

The so-called "State of Israel" stands rejected on religious grounds by the Torah. Its monstrous insensitivity to the laws of basic decency and fairness appall all men be they Jewish or not.

www.nkusa.org

This is the website of Neturei Karta, which is Jewish organization that understands the Torah, they says in their website :"Our quarrel with Zionism exists on many levels. First, by establishing a state in Palestine which is forbidden according to Jewish law, it denies the Divine punishment inherent in the Jewish people's exile and seeks to remedy what is essentially a spiritual state by this worldly means. Second, it has devoted much of its energy to the uprooting of traditional Torah faith. Third, it has committed a grievous moral evil in its treatment of the Palestinian people. "

And they says also :"Torah faithful Jew in the 1900 years of our people's exile believed that we should seek to reclaim the land by military means. Instead, they believed that at the end of days, when the Creator chooses to redeem all mankind then all peoples will join in the worship of Him. This will not require the subjugation or dispossession of peoples. It will be a time of universal brotherhood with its spiritual in the Holy Land. Until then the Jewish people have a particular task in exile."

Please log on to their website to read more proofs FROM TORAH that Jews don't have the right to have a state in Palestine or in any spot on the earth ...

Please read these carefully:
http://www.nkusa.org/books/pamphlets/pamphlet3.cfm

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Palestine/support.cfm

I say that every zionist in palestine has to go back to the country he came from or his father came from 55 years ago:Russia, Poland, .... etc

[Victor Danilchenko]

Don't feed the trolls, people.

[ZeeGerman]

Uff, I'm gonna pass on this one. Anybody else...?

Zee

[Cleopatra]

First of all I will ask you to remove this silly image that has to do with the flag of my country. I am sure you will understand.If you don't do it by yourslef I will ask a moderator to do so.

Second. I will share with you one of my favourite stories of Herodotus but you will need sometime to think about it.

Once upon a time, a rhetor went to Sparta to show off his skills in debating.
Spartans were gathered in the Agora ( Forum) to listen to the foreigner.

The rhetor thought that it would be a good idea to start flattering Sparta's favorite rhetor, Hercules ( did you know that Hercules was Sparta's local hero, BTW? )

He started saying how brave Hercules was and how important.

Spartans, left him talking for a while but after 30 minutes an elder Spartan told him.: "Excuse me for interrupting you but did you hear in this city someone talking badly of Hercules"?


So, relax.

[renata]

An@S came on this forum a little while ago promising to show evidence for his claims. I do hope one website of a radical group does not qualify as evidence. We could probably find dozens of Jewish groups that disagree with this one's interpretation of the Tora- if we did, would you revoke your claim? Or do you only link to it because it supports your preconceived notions, and would disgard all other interpretations?

So- would you like to try again? I bumped the other thread for you, the one in which you promised lots of evidence for Zionist control of worldwide media. Go for it. If you continue to post things like this, which is pure ideology and emotion, I doubt anyone here will be interested in discussing anything with you.

And sorry all, if he is indeed a troll and I just fed him. I guess I have a stupid hope that dialogue can change even the most radical of viewpoints. I keep beeing shown wrong, though.

[Diezel]

AN@S:

Could you please edit your post to be more clear about your quotes. You have quoted some things from those websites verbatim, but it appears as if it your own work. The content is small enough that you are not breaking copyright rules, but the way you have wrote it may be construed as a misrepresentation of the content.

[Cleopatra]

And the flag. I am an Israeli citizen and I feel insulted. I want the Israeli flag to be removed by his post.

Thank you

[hal bidlack]

I understand that such things are touchy, but I will not require that the flag be removed. I feel it is clearly a political statement, and as such is allowed.

When I teach my students about burning the US flag, I remind them of the words of a NYC rabbi, who said, "the best reason not to burn a flag is because you could, if you wanted to."

And I don't think the first post in this thread is from a troll. I find this issue very likely to be very energetic, but it is politics, it's philosophy, human nature, theology, and many other important subjects. I urge folks to discuss honestly, and with energy, but always with civility.

[AN@S]

I am thinking seriously to left this forum because that I discovered that a lot of the members here are not open minded and they even don’t want to think and to discuss !!!
I posted this post about 12:00 , Then when I checked the post at 12:15 I found renata says that I depend on radical groups to give my evidences !!!!
That means that renata don’t even want to take a look at the links I just provided ...
I don’t believe that she read the whole website in 15 minutes !!!!!

If I provided an evidences you’ll say that I depends on radical websites !!!
So what may I do???!!!!!!

Cleopatra I removed the image because I really want a smooth discussions and I don’t want anyone to hate me ...
You said:” First of all I will ask you to remove this silly image that has to do with the flag of my country”
There’s no country called Israel there’s a Zionist being in Palestine...

Renata what kind of evidences do u want? every evidence I’ll provide you’ll say that it is from a radical group’s website!!!!!!
I hope you’ll read the whole website and try to think ...
And I’ll say the same thing you said : I hope that dialogue can change even the most radical of viewpoints ...

Renata and Cleopatra .... please try not to be radicals

The sad AN@S

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by AN@S
Jews have no right to have a state.
I am not saying that because I am an Arab, there are alot of Jews says that Jews don't deserve a homeland according to their holy book (Torah)!!!
AN@S,

I'm pleased to have someone from Syria in this forum, even if I don't agree with everything you say.

Most of the Israelis I've met have been atheists who would not have been affected by an argument from the Torah.

Israeli citizens include orthodox Jews, conservative Jews, reformed Jews, agnostics, atheists, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. It's a country, like a lot of other countries.

I think governments ought to take care of practical problems, like building schools, roads, hospitals, things like that. I don't think it's important for governments to represent particular racial, religious, or cultural ideas. So long as a government is fairly effective at taking care of business, and so long as citizens have basic freedoms, I'm reasonably happy with a government, regardless of whether Jews, Arabs, Asians, blacks or whites, are in positions of authority within that government.

[Cleopatra]

I don't know if ridiculing national symbols can be considered a way of promoting political ideas, at all.

I think it's a kick below the belt.

That's why in my first reply I asked our friend to remove the flag by himself.

I count on his national pride and I expect him to do so.

Otherwise, I will take this refusal as an invitation to my experimenting with his methods in discussing politics.

[Cleopatra]

AN@S thank you for removing the flag, glad I won't have to display what can I do when I get paid...

You must have read what Polybius has written about Cleopatra ;)

Glad I had some problems with my connection and I didn't post another reply...

This must have been a "Divine Intervention"

As for my being radical, my friend, I have a passport with nice golden letters on it " State of Israel" , I have an interesting family story ( all I need to tell you is that my mom's last name has been the same since 16th century) and I have a passionate mediterranean heart.

That's why I am doing my best that my Palestinian fellow citizens have their palestinian passports as soon as possible, something that you, their brothers, have denied to them.

But it's ok we will do it for them. I swear we will.

[Segnosaur]

Frankly, even if the Torah says that there shouldn't be a homeland, it makes me want to support Israel more.

Lets face it, if they followed exactly what was in the Torah, they would be no better than fundamentalist christians who want Creationism taught in schools, or fundamentalist muslims who base their islamic law based on the Koran.

The Jews (and Christians, and Muslims, and all other residents of Israel) have managed to build a successful secular society, based on the principles of democracy and freedom. And they did this without blindly following a book (which contradicts itself regularly, as all religions books tend to do)written by anonymous authors many centuries ago.

[renata]

Originally posted by AN@S
I am thinking seriously to left this forum because that I discovered that a lot of the members here are not open minded and they even don’t want to think and to discuss !!!
I posted this post about 12:00 , Then when I checked the post at 12:15 I found renata says that I depend on radical groups to give my evidences !!!!
That means that renata don’t even want to take a look at the links I just provided ...
I don’t believe that she read the whole website in 15 minutes !!!!!

If I provided an evidences you’ll say that I depends on radical websites !!!
So what may I do???!!!!!!

Cleopatra I removed the image because I really want a smooth discussions and I don’t want anyone to hate me ...
You said:” First of all I will ask you to remove this silly image that has to do with the flag of my country”
There’s no country called Israel there’s a Zionist being in Palestine...

Renata what kind of evidences do u want? every evidence I’ll provide you’ll say that it is from a radical group’s website!!!!!!
I hope you’ll read the whole website and try to think ...
And I’ll say the same thing you said : I hope that dialogue can change even the most radical of viewpoints ...

Renata and Cleopatra .... please try not to be radicals

The sad AN@S

AN@S

Don't leave this forum because people challenge you- this is the nature of the forum. You previously posted you liked it here. Stick around.

Perhaps we can start by defining acceptable evidence. What do you think acceptable historic evidence is? If I posted several sites that would say Tora does not prohibit Jews living in Israel, how would you know which site to trust?

I am glad we agree that dialogue can change people's minds. I do not consider myself a radical, and I suspect you don't either. I believe the website you reference is not representative of Jewish scholarly tradition as it comes to Tora and State of Israel, and thus is radical, or (as defined by Websters) "Departing markedly from the usual or customary;"

There is a country called Israel. It is part of UN, and is reckognized by most of the world. However, I appreciate that you removed the anti-Israeli symbol.

[Tricky]

I don't think that the Jews deserve or don't deserve a homeland because of anything written in any ancient books. We simply cannot go back and redraw the borders of all the countries of the world because someone claims it is their "God-given land". (This applies to Palestinians too). The borders, and even the existence of a country depends on wars, politics geography and other factors, but ancient, probably fictional writings are not one of them.

Israel exists because it was able to convince enough countries to agree to let them take the land, and they were able to forge the right kinds of alliances to develop the land and they are now strong enough to be able to hold the land. From what I hear, they have done an excellent job too, literally "making the desert bloom".

Many countries (my own, for example) have come to exist as a result of far more violent and unfair acts against the previous inhabitants. That is history now. We must go forward instead of dwelling in the past. I think that those who live their whole lives for revenge will wind up hollow and miserable. I don't subscribe to the policy of "an eye for an eye until everyone is blind."

This being said, I believe that Israel should not try to take (by force) any more land than they already have, and that the US should withdraw their support for Israel if they do. If they try to do so anyway, the people being shoved out have every right to resist by legitimate means, which, in my opinion, does not include terrorism.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Tricky
I don't think that the Jews deserve or don't deserve a homeland because of anything written in any ancient books. We simply cannot go back and redraw the borders of all the countries of the world because someone claims it is their "God-given land".

Tricky,
I agree with you when you said that , but I want to clarify that a leading Israeli archaeologist Professor Zeev Herzog from the Tel Aviv University, published an article in the Israeli daily "Ha'aretz" saying There was no exodus from Egypt, Joshua didn't bring down the walls of Jericho, and Solomon's kingdom was a small, tribal dynasty, you can get more info here:
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0100Scriptures.html

[renata]

Originally posted by hisham


Tricky,
I agree with you when you said that , but I want to clarify that a leading Israeli archaeologist Professor Zeev Herzog from the Tel Aviv University, published an article in the Israeli daily "Ha'aretz" saying There was no exodus from Egypt, Joshua didn't bring down the walls of Jericho, and Solomon's kingdom was a small, tribal dynasty, you can get more info here:
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0100Scriptures.html

This webpage says
These pages (3 MB) explain how Judaism was created by the Persians in the fifth century. Colonists were deported into Yehud. Their reward was to have control of a temple state which collected taxes for Persia. Only priests of the temple state were Jews—a nation of priests. The history of the Jews was invented from Assyrian records and imagination, to show the native people as apostates who had to obey God diligently to atone for their past failings.

Interesting

Here is a website for you. http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

[Wasim]

Originally posted by renata

Interesting

Here is a website for you. http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

You gave hisham a website .. and I have a website to you ...
"Jewish Voices Against the Occupation" ...

There is no party or official organization behind this ad. We are just four Jewish residents of California who feel that something needs to be done in the face of the rapidly deteriorating situation.

We are two women and two men. Two of us are American born, the third is an Israeli who fought in two wars (including the '67 war), the fourth is a French Jew who survived the Nazi genocide.

Although we represent no one but ourselves, all of us have been active on peace and justice issues. Among the organizations with which we have worked are Friends of Yesh Gvul, the International Jewish Peace Union, Coalition of Jews for Justice in Israel and Palestine and Jewish Voice for Peace.


It's more interesting !!! .. :rolleyes:
I think so ...
"JVAO" = Jewish Voices Against the Occupation
OK .. Here is the website ...
http://www.jvao.org

[hisham]

Originally posted by renata


This webpage says


Interesting

Here is a website for you. http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

Maybe this can help you:
http://www.nkusa.org/aboutus/index.cfm

[renata]

Originally posted by Wasim


You gave hisham a website .. and I have a website to you ...
"Jewish Voices Against the Occupation" ...



It's more interesting !!! .. :rolleyes:
I think so ...
"JVAO" = Jewish Voices Against the Occupation
OK .. Here is the website ...
http://www.jvao.org

It does not surprise me that there are many Jews who wish Israel would withdraw from the territories. There are even some Jews who were against the establishment of Israel. Jews have many opinions, and they tend to diverge. Interestingly, in the US and in Israel, citizens can freely publicize their criticism of the government. I am not sure where you are from- AN@S is from Syria. How many candidates were on the ballot which elected Bashar Assad? How many opposition newspapers, websites, and radio stations are there in Syria?

[renata]

Originally posted by hisham


Maybe this can help you:
http://www.nkusa.org/aboutus/index.cfm

I have seen this website- you can see my earlier posts to the thread. I will once again ask hisham, Wasim and AN@S: what is acceptable historic evidence? What are the standards you use? if I linked to many website showing Jewish groups that disagree with this one's interpretation of the Tora, would you change your mind?

Still waiting for the evidence showing Zionist control of US media

By the way, do hisham, Wasim & AN@S believe that Protocols of the Elders of Zion are real or a forgery? Do you think that Jews use blood in their rituals, particularly during Passover?

[hisham]

Originally posted by renata


It does not surprise me that there are many Jews who wish Israel would withdraw from the territories. There are even some Jews who were against the establishment of Israel. Jews have many opinions, and they tend to diverge. Interestingly, in the US and in Israel, citizens can freely publicize their criticism of the government. I am not sure where you are from- AN@S is from Syria. How many candidates were on the ballot which elected Bashar Assad? How many opposition newspapers, websites, and radio stations are there in Syria?

Who told you that all people in Syria accept the policy of the government :D ? but the only common case that unit the people with this government is what we are discussing now

[hisham]

Originally posted by renata


I have seen this website- you can see my earlier posts to the thread. I will once again ask hisham, Wasim and AN@S: what is acceptable historic evidence? What are the standards you use? if I linked to many website showing Jewish groups that disagree with this one's interpretation of the Tora, would you change your mind?

Still waiting for the evidence showing Zionist control of US media

By the way, do hisham, Wasim & AN@S believe that Protocols of the Elders of Zion are real or a forgery? Do you think that Jews use blood in their rituals, particularly during Passover?

Am sure you know many things about the Talmud

[renata]

Originally posted by hisham


Who told you that all people in Syria accept the policy of the government :D ? but the only common case that unit the people with this government is what we are discussing now

I am curious to see how much dissent is tolerated in Syria. It is silly to bring up splinter Jewish groups as proof of anti-israeli policies- dissent is common and tolerated here.

If you disagree with Syrian policies on ( for example) economy, education and foreign policy then why are you all united when it comes to Israel? Do you think your government may misinform you when it comes to some topics tells 100% truth when it comes to another topic?

In another thread, http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17711&pagenumber=4 davefoc had an excellent post , a portion of which I will quote below

I was disapointed that you didn't respond to my comment about how middle east leaders use their anti-Israeli propaganda as a means of covering up their own incompetence and corruption. Do you think the main problem facing the Iraqi's was Israel or do you think that the fact that Hussein was torturing them, looting their national treasury to build his palaces and fortune, suppressing their free speech and leading them into disastrous wars were more important problems for the average Iraqi? Do you see why Hussein would, like all dictators, attempt to distract the people from the true source of their problems, his incompetence and his corruption, by spreading propaganda about a foreign threat?

[Baker]

Originally posted by renata


Still waiting for the evidence showing Zionist control of US media


These guys would be right home over in Storm Front they see Jewish conspiracy’s around every corner.

[renata]

Originally posted by hisham


Am sure you know many things about the Talmud

I know some things about the Talmud- I studied it for a little bit a few years ago. I am not sure how that answers my post, though. Can you explain?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by hisham


Tricky,
I agree with you when you said that , but I want to clarify that a leading Israeli archaeologist Professor Zeev Herzog from the Tel Aviv University, published an article in the Israeli daily "Ha'aretz" saying There was no exodus from Egypt, Joshua didn't bring down the walls of Jericho, and Solomon's kingdom was a small, tribal dynasty, you can get more info here:
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0100Scriptures.html

Shalom hisham.

There is no such a thing as Israeli archaeology... It sounds like a joke to educated people.
I belong to those Israelis that they want Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.

So what?What does this prove to you?

I think that you haven't just visited Sparta to talk about Hercules but you have come to Athens to bring the owl...

Welcome by the way! I hope you enjoy your staying.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Shalom hisham.

There is no such a thing as Israeli archaeology... It sounds like a joke to educated people.
I belong to those Israelis that they want Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.

So what?What does this prove to you?

I think that you haven't just visited Sparta to talk about Hercules but you have come to Athens to bring the owl...

Welcome by the way! I hope you enjoy your staying.

Salam,
this proves there is no "God-given land".

and thank you for your "welcome"

[Wasim]

Originally posted by renata


I am curious to see how much dissent is tolerated in Syria. It is silly to bring up splinter Jewish groups as proof of anti-israeli policies- dissent is common and tolerated here.

If you disagree with Syrian policies on ( for example) economy, education and foreign policy then why are you all united when it comes to Israel? Do you think your government may misinform you when it comes to some topics tells 100% truth when it comes to another topic?

In another thread, http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17711&pagenumber=4 davefoc had an excellent post


Maybe you should read this book "ISRAEL'S SACRED TERRORISM " ... by Livia Rokach...

"CHAPTER 4 "A Historical Opportunity to Occupy Southern Syria

At the above cited meeting on January 31, 1954 Moshe Dayan went on to outline his war plans. Sharett's note for that day continues:

The second plan-action against the interference of the Syrians with our fishing in the Lake of Tiberias. . . .The third-if, due to internal problems in Syria, Iraq invades that country we should advance [militarily, into Syria] and realize a series of "faits accomplis." . . . The interesting conclusion to be drawn from all this regards the direction in which the new Chief of Staff is thinking. I am extremely worried. (31 January 1954, 332)

On February 25, 1954, Syrian troops stationed in Aleppo revolted against Adib Shishakly's regime.

After lunch Lavon took me aside and started trying to persuade me: This is the right moment to act this is the time to move forward and occupy the Syrian border positions beyond the Demilitarized Zone. Syria is disintegrating. A State with whom we signed an armistice agreement exists no more. Its government is about to fall and there is no other power in view. Moreover, Iraq has practically moved into Syria. This is an historical opportunity, we shouldn't miss it.

I was reluctant to approve such a blitz-plan and saw ourselves on the verge of an abyss of disastrous adventure. I asked if he suggests to act immediately and I was shocked when I realized that he does. I said that if indeed Iraq will move into Syria with its army it will be a revolutionary turn which will ... justify far reaching conclusions, but for the time being this is only a danger, not a fact. It is not even clear if Shishakly will fall: he may survive. We ought to wait before making any decision. He repeated that time was precious and we must act so as not to miss an opportunity which otherwise might be lost forever. Again I answered that under the circumstances right now I cannot approve any such action. Finally I said that next Saturday we would be meeting with Ben Gurion ... and we could consult him then on the matter. I saw that he was extremely displeased by the delay. However, he had no choice but to agree. (25 February 1954, 374)

The next day the Shishakly regime actually fell. The following day, February 27, Sharett was present at a meeting where Lavon and Dayan reported to Ben Gurion that what happened in Syria was - "a typical Iraqi action." The two proposed again that the Israeli army be put on the march. Ben Gurion, "electrified," agreed. Sharett reiterated his opposition, pointing to the certainty of a Security Council condemnation, the possibility of the use against Israel of the Tripartite Declaration of 1950, hence the probability of a "shameful failure" The three objected that "our entrance [into Syria] is justified in view of the situation in Syria. This is an act of defense of our border area." Sharett closed the discussion by insisting on the need for further discussion in the cabinet meeting, scheduled for the next morning:

Lavon's face wore a depressed expression. He understood this to be the end of the matter. (27 February 1954, 377)

On Sunday, February 28, the press reported that no Iraqi troops had entered Syria. The situation in Damascus was under the complete control of President Hashem Al Atassi. The cabinet approved Sharett's position and rejected Lavon's vehement appeal not to miss a historical opportunity. Lavon said "The U.S. is about to betray us and ally itself with the Arab world." We should "demonstrate our strength and indicate to the U.S. that our life depends on this so that they will not dare do anything against us." The premier's victory, however, was to be short-lived.

Until that time the Syrian-Israeli border presented no particular problems to the Israelis. When tensions developed, it was almost invariably due to Israeli provocations, such as the irrigation work on lands belonging to Arab farmers, which was condemned by the UN; or the use of military patrol boats against Syrian fishermen fishing in the Lake of Tiberias. No Syrian regime could afford to refrain from offering some minimum protection to its border citizens against Israeli attacks or the taking away of their livelihoods, but neither did the rulers of Damascus feel stable enough to wish to be dragged into a major conflict with their southern neighbor. Clashes were therefore minor, and essentially seasonal. No security arguments could be credibly invoked to justify an expansionist program, or any other aggression against Syria.

On December 12, 1954, however, a Syrian civilian plane was hijacked by Israeli war planes shortly after its takeoff, and forced to land at Lydda airport. Passengers and crew were detained and interrogated for two days, until stormy international protests forced the Israelis to release them. Furious, Sharett wrote to Lavon on December 22:

It must be clear to you that we had no justification whatsoever to seize the plane, and that once forced down we should have immediately released it and not held the passengers under interrogation for 48 hours. I have no reason to doubt the truth of the factual affirmation of the U.S. State Department that our action was without precedent in the history of international practice. ..... What shocks and worries me is the narrow-mindedness and the shortsightedness of our military leaders. They seem to presume that the State of Israel may or even must-behave in the realm of international relations according to the laws of the jungle. (22 December 1954, 607)

Sharett also protested to Lavon against the scandalous press campaign, which he suspected was inspired by the security establishment and which was aimed at convincing public opinion that the Syrian plane was stopped and forced down because it violated Israeli sovereignty and perhaps endangered its security. "As a result, the public does not understand why such a plane was released and naturally it concludes that we have here an unjustified concession on the part of the government" - (ibid.)

On December 11, the day before Israel set this world precedent for air piracy, five Israeli soldiers were captured inside Syrian territory while mounting wiretapping installations on the Syrian telephone network. A month later, on January 13, 1955, one of them committed suicide in prison. The official Israeli version is, once again, that the five had been abducted in Israeli territory, taken to Syria, and tortured. The result was a violent emotional upsurge in Israel, all the more so as this news arrived shortly after the condemnation in Cairo of members of an Israeli terrorist ring which had been described to public opinion as an anti-Jewish frame-up. The prime minister confided to his personal diary:

A young boy has been sacrificed for nothing.... Now they will say that his blood is on my hands. If I hadn't ordered the release of the Syrian plane [we would have had our hostages and] the Syrians could have been forced to free the five. The boy . . . would have been alive ... our soldiers have not been kidnapped in Israeli territory by Syrian invaders as the army spokesman announced .... They penetrated into Syria and not accidentally but in order to take care of a wiretapping installation, connected to a Syrian telephone line ... the young men were sent without any experienced person, they were not instructed what to do in case of failure and the result was that in the first interrogation they broke down and told the whole truth. . . . I have no doubt that the press and the Knesset will cry about torture. On the other hand, it is possible that the boy committed suicide because he broke down during the interrogation and only later he understood what a disaster he has brought upon his comrades and what he did to the state. Possibly his comrades tormented him afterwards. Anyway, his conscience probably caused him to take this terrible step. (3 January 1955, 649)

Isser [Harel, then Shin Bet chief] warned me of what may happen to me personally as a result of the suicide. A poisonous attack is being organized against me.... it is particularly necessary to take care of what is happening in the army and to prevent lawless riots. (14 January 1955, 653). It is clear that Dayan's intention ... is to get [Syrian] hostages in order to obtain the release of our prisoners in Damascus. He put it into his head that it is necessary to take hostages, and would not let go. (10 February 1955, 714)

Nineteen years later, Dayan, then minister of defense in Golda Meir's government, ordered his troops to move into a school, regardless of the danger to Israeli civilians including children, in Ma'alot, with the sole aim of preventing Palestinian guerrillas from obtaining, through the taking of hostages, the release of their Palestinian comrades jailed and tortured under the military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. On that, as on other similar occasions, a virulent and poisonous Zionist campaign, widely echoed in the Western media, declared the Palestinian liberation movement's attempt to free prisoners by taking hostages as intolerable, barbaric, savage, murderous, and terrorist. When did these same media call Moshe Dayan a terrorist?

Israeli plots against Syria in the fifties were not only limited to expansionist and terrorist projects. On July 31, 1955, a senior foreign ministry aide, Gideon Raphael, reported to Sharett on a couple of "interesting meetings" he had held with Arab exiles in Europe. One of these was with ex-Syrian Premier Hosni Barazi:

Hosni wants to get back in power, and is ready to accept help from anyone: from Turkey, in exchange for Syria's future entrance into the Ankara-Baghdad pact; from the U. S., in exchange for Syria's future alliance with the West, with Israel, in exchange for a peace agreement. (31 July 1955, 1099)

Peace, however, was the last thing Israel was interested in. lsrael's support would require another price:

Meanwhile he says to us give-give: money for newspapers, money to buy off personalities, money to buy off political parties. Gideon [suggested to him that] . . . he himself is a big land owner, and why won't he get together a group of land owners, initiate a big plan of settling refugees.... Hosni listened, said it was a wonderful idea ... but only after he regains power, and until he regains power he needs a payment in advance. (31 July 1955, 1100)

A year later, a week before his final fall from the government, Sharett got a last report on Israel's subversive activities in Syria from his advisor on Arab affairs, "Josh" Palmon:

Our contacts with [Adib] Shishakly [the exiled Syrian dictator overthrown in 1954] have been strengthened. The guidelines for common action after his return to power (if he returns!) have been established. We have decided on guidelines to contact the U.S. in regard to this issue. (12 June 1956, 1430)

None of these "historical opportunities" regarding Syria actually materialized at that time, nor, however, did Israel ever abandon its plans to install a puppet regime in Damascus. But in Lebanon as well, the precise operational blueprints elaborated in 1954 waited two decades before being put into action.



http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/rokach.html

[renata]

Originally posted by Wasim


Maybe you should read this book "ISRAEL'S SACRED TERRORISM " ... by Livia Rokach...

"CHAPTER 4 "A Historical Opportunity to Occupy Southern Syria



http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/rokach.html

It is entirely possible that I should read this book. I still don't see how your post addresses my questions.

[renata]

Originally posted by hisham


Salam,
this proves there is no "God-given land".

and thank you for your "welcome"

1. Your sources are not historic evidence
2. Assuming you are right, and Jews were a creation of the Persions in the fifth century ( all archaelogical and literal evidence to to contrary), and Israel is not a God given land, why do you think that counters Israel's legitimacy as it exists today?

In other words, even if it is not a "God given land", so what? Most people on this board are atheists, by the way. There are many atheists who support Israel even while they do not believe in God.

[hisham]

Originally posted by renata


I know some things about the Talmud- I studied it for a little bit a few years ago. I am not sure how that answers my post, though. Can you explain?
you said: By the way, do hisham, Wasim & AN@S believe that Protocols of the Elders of Zion are real or a forgery? Do you think that Jews use blood in their rituals, particularly during Passover?
---------------------
Now the talmod is The most racist book in the history, and mach more, ok I am not sure of the existence of Protocols of the Elders of Zion , now I ask you, do you believe in this book as a sacred book of religious laws and regulations governing the life of Jews worldwide?

[hisham]

Originally posted by renata


1. Your sources are not historic evidence
2. Assuming you are right, and Jews were a creation of the Persions in the fifth century ( all archaelogical and literal evidence to to contrary), and Israel is not a God given land, why do you think that counters Israel's legitimacy as it exists today?

In other words, even if it is not a "God given land", so what? Most people on this board are atheists, by the way. There are many atheists who support Israel even while they do not believe in God.
Thank you for your answer,
If Israel is not a "God given land", how people must believe in the existence of this state?

[renata]

Originally posted by hisham

you said: By the way, do hisham, Wasim & AN@S believe that Protocols of the Elders of Zion are real or a forgery? Do you think that Jews use blood in their rituals, particularly during Passover?
---------------------
Now the talmod is The most racist book in the history, and mach more, ok I am not sure of the existence of Protocols of the Elders of Zion , now I ask you, do you believe in this book as a sacred book of religious laws and regulations governing the life of Jews worldwide?
'
Unless you are asserting that blood rituals are in the Talmud, as well as Protocols of the Elders of Zion, I am not sure how bringing it up answers my very simple yes or no questions. Please do answer them, I really would like to know.

As far as Talmud is concerned, I wonder how much of it you have read or studied. I studied some of it a few years ago, in original Aramaic/Hebrew mixture. Talmud is really a law codex, and interpretation of the Torah. It is the collection of the oral tradition of Judaism as well as various interpretions of the same. It was completed over several centuries, and commented on as late as 13th century, and I believe later as well. Some orthodox Jews live by principles and laws set out in it, not all Jews do. I am not religious, so I do not. I would say a majority of Jews are not Orthodox, so most Jews do not live by principles set out in Talmud.

Why do you call it the most racist book in history?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by hisham


Salam,
this proves there is no "God-given land".

and thank you for your "welcome"

Of course not. My ancestors have fought for this land in the every war that took place after the establishment of our country. None has given us the land as a gift and ... especially God...

No, it was my grandmothers blood!! She was of divine beauty but she was not God, I assure you!

Looking forward to many of your posts in the various forums. I think that you people, who decided to join the forum must participate in various discussions,to let people know what Arabs are like :)

[renata]

Originally posted by hisham

Thank you for your answer,
If Israel is not a "God given land", how people must believe in the existence of this state?

I don't think US is a God Given land either, but I accept it as a state. I do not see how believing in God is a prerequisite for acceptance of any country.


Side note- I am glad we are having this conversation, I would ask you to come back to my earlier question on what you accept as evidence. I fear we may end up talking past each other, due to our mutual preconceived beliefs. I think we should agree to set some basic rules as to what is acceptable as proof and what is not.

[hisham]

Originally posted by renata


I don't think US is a God Given land either, but I accept it as a state. I do not see how believing in God is a prerequisite for acceptance of any country.


Side note- I am glad we are having this conversation, I would ask you to come back to my earlier question on what you accept as evidence. I fear we may end up talking past each other, due to our mutual preconceived beliefs. I think we should agree to set some basic rules as to what is acceptable as proof and what is not.
Done, I agree with you about setting some basic rules as to what is acceptable as proof.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Of course not. My ancestors have fought for this land in the every war that took place after the establishment of our country. None has given us the land as a gift and ... especially God...

No, it was my grandmothers blood!! She was of divine beauty but she was not God, I assure you!

Looking forward to many of your posts in the various forums. I think that you people, who decided to join the forum must participate in various discussions,to let people know what Arabs are like :)
Sure are not like you, they are not racists ;)

[Cleopatra]

Yeah...I have seen this film before. When people have nothing to reply they call me many things. Jew, woman, racist ...

You have the faintest idea of what I am , my friend. :) So, do me the honour to reply to my ideas , talk with me, and find out what I really am :)

[renata]

Originally posted by hisham

Done, I agree with you about setting some basic rules as to what is acceptable as proof.

Good. As a first item, I propose starting a new thread. This one started in a fairly inflammatory manner, and may repel some posters. We can call it something like "An Invitation to a Dialogue on Israel/Arab relations" and list some ground rules in the very beginning.
I also suggest no flaming or baiting
No posting if inflammatory images ( israeli flag image, pictures of victims)
Honest answer to questions, even if answers are difficult.
Willingness to examine other party's sources.
As to evidence- can we agree that writings on a website without references are not strong evidence? Furthermore, writings by a splinter group should not be shown as evidence of a major point. So, for example, since majority of religious Jews would disagree with the statements by the group referenced in the first post, all their writings prove is that a minority of Jews disagree on a subject, not that Jews don't have a right to Israel


I echo Cleopatra's post and say it is very good to have Arabs on this board- I am genuinely curious to learn about Arab opinions on many subjects. I assume you guys are here to talk about the subject and learn as well. I believe there are several Israelis on this board, and several Jews, so the conversation should be lively.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Yeah...I have seen this film before. When people have nothing to reply they call me many things. Jew, woman, racist ...

You have the faintest idea of what I am , my friend. :) So, do me the honour to reply to my ideas , talk with me, and find out what I really am :)
You're NOT a woman? :(
I am totally bummed. (But I still like you).

[Baker]

Originally posted by Tricky

You're NOT a woman? :(
I am totally bummed. (But I still like you).

So am I just how long where you planning to keep this little secret Cleopatra?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko
Don't feed the trolls, people.

Not a Troll, I think. A lot of passion and anger, perhaps, but not, I believe a Troll.

There has been much debate about the creation of Israel among Jews. This post puts one of them up for debate.

The people who founded Israel were not, I believe, deeply religious, they saw the creation of the state as a purely political act. The majority extremists have been along for the ride, except for the small minority of the deeply religous who did see the creation of Israel as a political act that did contravene the will of god.

For the majority of Zionists, however, this is irrelevant. They are Jewish in culture or race more than faith, and were driven by the desire to create a state where they were not treated as second class citizens.

[Clancie]

Interestingly, evangelical Christians (like President Bush) often support Israel for biblical reasons.

from the Christian Science Monitor

And more are beginning to question how the evangelicalism of Bush, key aides such as Condoleezza Rice, and his political constituency might play a role in Middle East policy.

According to evangelicals, the vast majority of them are very supportive of Israel for religious reasons. "The president certainly knows that and may be influenced by the same things," Mouw says.

But the reasons aren't those usually portrayed by the media. "The idea that evangelicals support Israel because they want to hasten the Second Coming is absolute nonsense," says Dr. Land. "No human being can do anything to hasten or retard that."

Evangelical support rests, Land explains, on God's biblical promise to give the land of Israel to the Jews forever, and on God's statement that he will "bless those who bless the Jews and curse those who curse the Jews."

That statement holds considerable power among some evangelicals. "There's a strong tendency toward uncritical support of Israel and that verse gets thrown at us whenever we are critical of some policy," says Mouw, one of the leaders to sign the letter to Bush.

...Dr. Seiple is disappointed, too, in Bush's failure to see the moral ambiguity and complexity in the Palestinian-Israeli question. "We went from an honest broker to one-sided emphasis," he says. "It may play well with his base politically, and he might believe it theologically ... but it's not where I would give him high marks for moral leadership."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0317/p01s01-uspo.html

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Tricky

You're NOT a woman? :(
I am totally bummed. (But I still like you).


LOL Tricky.... You showed disbelief my child... My Royal memory won't forget this...

Of course I am a woman!!! I think it's obvious!!! But in my life, I have met people that when they wanted to insult me, they used the obvious...In Mediterranean women weren't always equal to men.

Now. I am not sure I want to participate in any "official" arab/israeli dialogue. I feel that such a dialogue however open might be, will frame my freedom of thinking and speech. I explain what I mean, I have said it before.

However moderate our new friends might be, they will start using terms as " Thieves"," Racists" etc etc etc.
Although I find Israel's policy to some points questionnable, there is not way for me to start discussing when I feel that the discussion isn't just political...

In political discussions I behave like a citizen but in discussions where my national pride is involved... then... the citizen gives its place to the patriot.To tell you the truth I am more comfortable with citizens... It's the 2003 for God's sake!

Also, I dissaprove of the extensive use of Internet meterial. You keep asking for links. Many people I know, including myself, are trained to compose different texts saying exactly the opposite things the one from another... So what?

If you want to debate the way ancient atheneans did in the Agora, using their logic and having good faith in the words of the opposite side, then... ok...I will be honored to join you :)

[Wasim]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Now. I am not sure I want to participate in any "official" arab/israeli dialogue. I feel that such a dialogue however open might be, will frame my freedom of thinking and speech. I explain what I mean, I have said it before.

However moderate our new friends might be, they will start using terms as " Thieves"," Racists" etc etc etc.
Although I find Israel's policy to some points questionnable, there is not way for me to start discussing when I feel that the discussion isn't just political...



As the periodic bloodshed continues in the Middle East, the search for
an equitable solution must come to grips with the root cause of the
conflict. The conventional wisdom is that, even if both sides are at
fault, the Palestinians are irrational "terrorists" who have no point
of view worth listening to. Our position, however, is that the
Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand
years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the
creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes - on both
sides - inevitably follow from this original injustice.


And it's the reason why we came here .. we came here because we want to discuss with you .. JREF Forums is a great place to exchange ideas and comments .. We encourage all JREF Forums members to take an active role in keeping this discussions lively and more interesting ..

And I want to thank all who share us this discussion..

[blackpriester]

Originally posted by Tricky
I don't think that the Jews deserve or don't deserve a homeland because of anything written in any ancient books. We simply cannot go back and redraw the borders of all the countries of the world because someone claims it is their "God-given land". (This applies to Palestinians too). The borders, and even the existence of a country depends on wars, politics geography and other factors, but ancient, probably fictional writings are not one of them.

Israel exists because it was able to convince enough countries to agree to let them take the land, and they were able to forge the right kinds of alliances to develop the land and they are now strong enough to be able to hold the land. From what I hear, they have done an excellent job too, literally "making the desert bloom".

Many countries (my own, for example) have come to exist as a result of far more violent and unfair acts against the previous inhabitants. That is history now. We must go forward instead of dwelling in the past. I think that those who live their whole lives for revenge will wind up hollow and miserable. I don't subscribe to the policy of "an eye for an eye until everyone is blind."

This being said, I believe that Israel should not try to take (by force) any more land than they already have, and that the US should withdraw their support for Israel if they do. If they try to do so anyway, the people being shoved out have every right to resist by legitimate means, which, in my opinion, does not include terrorism.

Tricky, i agree wholheartedly.
This was one of the best and balanced posts I have read on this topic so far. Carry on...

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Wasim





And it's the reason why we came here .. we came here because we want to discuss with you ..

Why you use plural? Who are you? Do you participate here as a group or as individuals?

Also, Renata proposed to you to start a new thread, I already wrote what I think but I couldn't help noticing that you included the url of this thread with its full inflamatory title to your signature.As if you want this title to follow you in every future post in this forum.

I am afraid that you must try harder than that to persuade me that you want a civilized discussion.

[renata]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Now. I am not sure I want to participate in any "official" arab/israeli dialogue. I feel that such a dialogue however open might be, will frame my freedom of thinking and speech. I explain what I mean, I have said it before.

However moderate our new friends might be, they will start using terms as " Thieves"," Racists" etc etc etc.
Although I find Israel's policy to some points questionnable, there is not way for me to start discussing when I feel that the discussion isn't just political...

In political discussions I behave like a citizen but in discussions where my national pride is involved... then... the citizen gives its place to the patriot.To tell you the truth I am more comfortable with citizens... It's the 2003 for God's sake!


I am sorry you think my proposal would hinder debate. i just wanted to turn down the volume and talk about the issues. I agree that it may prove impossible, but it is a rare opportunity. People keep saying Israel and Arabs should just come to peaceful terms. I would like to know what the other side thinks, and see why. If this thing never gets off the ground, so be it.


Also, I dissaprove of the extensive use of Internet meterial. You keep asking for links. Many people I know, including myself, are trained to compose different texts saying exactly the opposite things the one from another... So what?

I think if someone makes a claim ( such as the recent Talmud is the most racist book in history) I can bring up sites about Talmud, and they can bring up sites where they got that info, and we can decide which source is trustworthy. Otherwise, I fear the discussion may turn into- is-is not- is- is not, etc.



If you want to debate the way ancient atheneans did in the Agora, using their logic and having good faith in the words of the opposite side, then... ok...I will be honored to join you :)

Sounds good. I was trying for a rational and logical conversation supported by evidence. Perhaps you can contribute some guidelines? If this thing will ever work, your contribution will be invaluable. :)

[Cleopatra]

Renata, I wasn't referening personally to you, these were just my inputs regarding the idea.

I wrote this by the moment I arrived at my office. Now I am off to home and I have just read to another thread what was the " proof" that they have provided to you that the USA Media are pro-Israeli...

I felt a bit desperate, to tell you the truth... Not because the source is ridiculous( because it is) but however harsh I might sound, if this is the best the Arab side can do... well... it makes somebody wonder...

Also, as I mentioned to Wasim, I can't discuss having the title of this thread appearing in every post. No! I don't want him to remove it but to me it says a lot about the style of discussions this "we came here to discuss" group is used to...

But let me stop here for now... I don't want my post to be more inflamatory than the title...

[renata]

I agree with you. The start is inauspicious at best. ( Hey, in another thread AN@S said he would not regret my death via suicide bomber- nothing personal, of course)

This is why I want to start over with some ground rules on behavior and evidence. These people are not born with these beliefs, they are taught them. I want to know how much is ingrained, and how much can be challenged. I want to see if they can be fair in examining their assumptions. If we can't talk peacefully with 3 Arabs from Syria, how can we expect peace on a global scale?

Perhaps I am hopelessly naive ( I have been called worse) but I hope conversation can clear a lot of the misconceptions each side has about the other.

And I agree that in any conversations, civility is the key. So of Wasim removes the thread name from his sig, and we can start with a clean slate, it is worth a try.

[Cleopatra]

Oh of course I can talk peacefully even if they call me a racist, I can do it with no problem.

Peacefully is not enough I am afraid. Both sides must have good faith. I am not interested in discussions that will lack good faith.

But it's ok if you will decide to start another thread. I have some questions myself like" Why Arabs didn't aknowledged the Palestinian nation before 1967"
"Why Syria has played this questionnable role in the Palestinian issue" and many many more of this kind...
" Why Jordan hasn't given Palestinians the West Bank to establish a State before 1967"?

"Why the Arab League hasn't stop producing oil even for one day in order to pressure the International Community for the Palestinian cause. Is money more important to them ?"
" Is it my idea or the King of Jordan admires too much G.W.Bush?"
" Is it my idea, or the Queen of Jordan spends too much on dresses when her people are starving?"

We are people too... We have questions too...

[renata]

Questions are great! I already have a half dozen questions from their claims alone- such as Talmud, etc. I will start a thread now.