Buddhism and compassion

[Vitnir]

I recently read that Dalai Lama had said in an interview that the reason the people in Tibet was suffering was because of (their?) bad karma. My question if anyone knows is, how do buddhist combine the feeling of compassion to people who suffer while also having the opinion that they had it coming? Just blank denial that there is a problem like all fundies?

[drkitten]

My question if anyone knows is, how do buddhist combine the feeling of compassion to people who suffer while also having the opinion that they had it coming? Just blank denial that there is a problem like all fundies?

I don't think the two feelings/opinions are incompatible, so no denial is necessary.

"Compassion" is just "fellow-feeling," yes? I don't think any parent likes spanking their child. I've never met a cat owner who enjoyed having to give their cat medicine (and Rolfe, if you're reading -- why the (rule 8) must all veterinary suspensions taste like bubble gum? Cats, in case this comes as a surprise to you, eat meat. Last time I checked, very few brands of bubble gum qualify as "meat.") For myself alone -- I'm a teacher, and I hate failing students. But I recognize when it needs to be done, and I recognize that the students "had it coming."

If you're worried about failing my final exam, and you come talk to me the week before, I'll move heaven and earth to explain the material to you. I'll give you copies of last year's exam to work on if they're available. I'll work through those questions in front of you so that you know exactly what's expected and can answer them yourself.

But if after all that, you still fail the test, I will -- reluctantly, and with a heavy heart -- record the failure that you earned. I will even acknowledge that at least part of the blame is no doubt my own for failure to find the one magic explanation that would have made everything clear to you. But when it comes down to it, it's hard to overlook the fact that you failed to master the material, and that you're not qualified to take courses at the next level.

[Lisa Simpson]

I would like to see the Dalai Lama's statement before I comment.

[Ryokan]

If the Dalai Lama said that, I'd be very surprised.

You see, in Buddhism there's no such thing as 'bad' or 'good' karma. There is just karma, the universal law of cause and effect.

But even if he said it, please note that the Dalai Lama represents a very unique and very small Buddhist group. Tibetan Buddhism is very different from Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism, the two main denominations.

[Ryokan]

My question if anyone knows is, how do buddhist combine the feeling of compassion to people who suffer while also having the opinion that they had it coming? Just blank denial that there is a problem like all fundies?

I should know. I am, after all, a Buddhist.

What I say is, you have totally misunderstood the Buddhist concept of Karma. It's true, in Hinduism they view Karma in a similar way you describe, and it has been used to justify the status quo of the Hindu castes.

However, one of the things that made Gautama Buddha known in his time was the opposition to this system. You could say that Buddhism was a reaction to the unjust ways of the Hindu caste systems and the Brahmins that were on the top of it.

But while Hinduism looks back, Buddhism looks forward. When the Hindu says that all those who suffer got what they deserved because of transgressions in a former life, Buddhism teaches that all of us are interconnected and depend upon one another for our existence.

I've never met or heard of a Buddhist fundamentalist, but I'm sure it's possible. Buddhism is not a faith religion or a dogma religion. There has never been a Buddhist holy war of any kind, and there has never been serious fighting amongst the different denominations.

If you consider the Dalai Lama a fundamentalist, I'd love to hear your reasoning behind that claim.

[Marquis de Carabas]

This might be the relevant interview...


And sometimes as you say and as is believed in your faith, it may take many lives; the karma of one life may not be enough.

True. And like Tibet, other events like the tsunami or the recent earthquake, these are not due to individual karma but come from the common karma of the community.

But that's odd. Isn't it why should God punish so many for the karma of some? Why this mass punishment?

I think there is a different answer for that, according to different concepts. There are the theistic traditions, whose central faith is in a creator or God. Then there is Buddhism, there is Jainism and the other ancient Indian traditions which see everything as happening according to karma , the law of causality.

But still, Your Holiness, something like the tsunami or the earthquake or the flooding in New Orleans, you say that it comes from the karma of a community, but a lot of innocents get punished. Is that fair?

Well, you see, again according to ancient Indian thought, we have the concept of rebirth, several lives. So, an event we face can come from karma not necessarily created in this life, but in a previous one. A person can look innocent, but he suffers due to his past karma . That, you see, is the Buddhist explanation, and is so in Jainism as well.

Source (http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?c=5&t=1&id=11057&article='I+am+probably+going+to+meet+Bush+in+Novem ber%2C+I+may+use+that+with+him%E2%80%94Buddhism+an d+Bushism')

drkitten's answer seems good to me, though I'll let the Buddhists sort it out for themselves.

[Ryokan]

One thing a Buddhist must deal with oh so many times, is the misunderstood concepts of Karma and Reincarnation.


There are some who criticise thus: "So, you Buddhists, too, administer capitalistic opium to the people, saying: "You are born poor in this life on account of your past evil karma. He is born rich on account of his good Karma. So, be satisfied with your humble lot; but do good to be rich in your next life. You are being oppressed now because of your past evil Karma. There is your destiny. Be humble and bear your sufferings patiently. Do good now. You can be certain of a better and happier life after death."

The Buddhist doctrine of Karma does not expound such ridiculous fatalistic views. Nor does it vindicate a postmortem justice. The All-Merciful Buddha, who had no ulterior selfish motives, did not teach this law of Karma to protect the rich and comfort the poor by promising illusory happiness in an after-life.

While we are born to a state created by ourselves, yet by our own self-directed efforts there is every possibility for us to create new, favourable environments even here and now. Not only individually, but also, collectively, we are at liberty to create fresh Karma that leads either towards our progress or downfall in this very life.

According to the Buddhist doctrine of Karma, one is not always compelled by an ‘iron necessity’, for Karma is neither fate, nor predestination imposed upon us by some mysterious unknown power to which we must helplessly submit ourselves. It is one’s own doing reacting on oneself, and so one has the possibility to divert the course of one’s Karma to some extent. How far one diverts it depends on oneself.

Is one bound to reap all that one has sown in just proportion?

The Buddha provides an answer:

"If anyone says that a man or woman must reap in this life according to his present deeds, in that case there is no religious life, nor is an opportunity afforded for the entire extinction of sorrow. But if anyone says that what a man or woman reaps in this and future lives accords with his or her deeds present and past, in that case there is a religious life, and an opportunity is afforded for the entire extinction of a sorrow." (Anguttara Nikaya)



Source (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm)

My interpretation, and a very common interpretation, is that Karma isn't working on individual basis, but on large groups. If this generation does bad deeds, the next generation will suffer for it. Vice versa for good deeds.

[Melendwyr]

If one generation doesn't properly reinforce levees, the next generation might suffer if the levees break.

Is that 'fair' or 'just'? It's causality. Human justice has nothing to do with it.

[hodgy]

I should know. I am, after all, a Buddhist.
I've never met or heard of a Buddhist fundamentalist, but I'm sure it's possible. Buddhism is not a faith religion or a dogma religion. There has never been a Buddhist holy war of any kind, and there has never been serious fighting amongst the different denominations.

Whilst being fairly typical of the modern Western perception of Buddhism, that statement is, of course, completely untrue. Buddhism is a religion and has its share of atrocities and wars. Here's an example:

http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/dalitism/dal000/budsinbk.html

Also consider the role of established Buddhism in the Japanese Empire. There are other examples from history but since you are the Buddhist I think the onus is upon you to do the research before you join the moral gloating that is typical of the blinkered western intellectual view of Buddhism (and other Eastern religions, come to that).

[Ryokan]

I found no confirmation of the events described in the first link on the net. It may be due to poor Google skills, or something else. If there's something out there, I'm sure someone here will be able to find it. However, the text does mix myth with history (Like saying the genocidal invasions started on the same day that Gautama Buddha attained enlightenment, and quoting a book written 600 years after the fact.).

It also quotes from a book by a man called S.J.Gunasegaram, which they say prove what they claim. The only reference to this person on the internet is on a site called tamilnation.org (where there are som articles by him, including the 'book' mention in your link). Three of five references to the article in your link is from tamilnation.org.

As a generalization, Tamils are very biased towards Buddhism.

From the article you linked to :

The oppression of Dravidian Shaivites by Aryan Buddhist Sinhalese continues to this day. The enslaved black Dravidians are now, thanks to the Global Black Nationalist movement, receiving substanital help from Blacks in South Africa and America in their struggle against White Aryan Buddhist tyranny in Sri Lanka.

I have no idea who the Dravidian Shaivites are, so I asked Google. I got around 15 hits, none of them explaining very well who they are, except that they are a Hindu sect. None of them mentions Sri Lanka.

Trying the two words seperatly, Wikipeda tells me this :

Dravidian may refer to:

A group of people who came through Arabia to settle on the Asian mainland at the Strait of Hormuz and on the Indus river in what is now Afghanistan. These people were driven southward into India. Some scholars attribute this to a later 'Aryan invasion.'

Dravidian languages, including the Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam, and Kannada languages spoken especially in southern India and northern Sri Lanka.

Southern Dravidian languages, a major grouping of the languages

Dravidian race, a member of any of the peoples that speak one of the
Dravidian languages , especially a member of one of the pre-Indo-European peoples of India

A political movement encompassing a number of different parties that appeal to speakers of the Tamil language

Shaivism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaivites

Śaivism, also transliterated Shaivism and Saivism, is a branch of Hinduism that worships Siva as the Supreme God. Followers of Śaivism are called Śaivas or Śaivites.

Originated in India, Śaivism has appeal all over India and is particularly strong among the Tamils of Southern India and Sri Lanka. Some traditions credit the spreading of Śaivism into southern India by the great sage, Agastya, who is said to brought Vedic traditions as well as the Tamil language.

To conclude this, I believe we are looking at Tamil propoganda, used to create animosity between Tamils and Buddhists. If I am wrong, it shouldn't be too difficult to prove me wrong.

As for the role of Buddhism in the Japanese Empire pre- and during WW2, I think you'll find that Shinto and the Confucianist inspired Bushido ideal had much more to do with how things turned out. Although it's a shame how the Japanese Buddhists kept their mouths shut about what was going on, many Buddhists were also imprisoned by the government because they spoke out against the war.

How do you know I'm a westerner, anyway?

[Vitnir]

Well as you can tell from my post I didnt read the original interview so my source is shaky plus I dont remember all that much from religion class at high school/gymnasium 15 years ago so its pretty much a blank page for me.
I dont think this can be compared to relatively trivial things such as flunking a lazy student, its disasters on a large scale with many people dead. To just explain it with karma is a tad too much for me. The unconfirmed quote is from a newspaper which in turn was noted by the Swedish skeptic society and it ran:
Dalai: If you realize that you were struck by the disaster due to you karma, it can make you feel less angry and frustrated.
Reporter: Did the people who die in the tsunami realy have bad karma?
Dalai: Yes, of cause, just like my generation in Tibet ... There is much suffering, but it is due to our own missdeeds and mistakes, not just in this life but in previous life.
My interpretation of this is that when bad things happen to people, they had it coming. How can you feel for these people at the same time?

[Marquis de Carabas]

My interpretation of this is that when bad things happen to people, they had it coming. How can you feel for these people at the same time?
By recognising that it's not "these people" but all people, oneself included. We are comrades in misfortune, as we are in the misdeeds which brought it.

[Ryokan]

Vitnir, your first mistake is believeing Dalai Lama represents Buddhism. He only represents a very small denomination of it. Also, if you read my replies to you, you'd understand the Buddhist concept of Karma much better. It's not 'accept what you've got, because you deserve it' at all.

[Meadmaker]

Just in case you think Ryokan is blowing smoke, I am also a Buddhist, but not very much of one. Sometimes I don't call myself a Buddhist. At any rate, I was very surprised to read the Dalai Lama saying those things about Karma. It's very difficult to reconcile that discussion with what I was taught about Buddhism in the brief exposure I had to it attending various temples or meditation centers.

One thing from Buddhism that might make sense out of the Lama's talk would be to note that Buddhism teaches that all people suffer, until they find the way to the exctinction of suffering. Obviously, the people still here on the Earth have not found that way, and so they are fated to suffer. It is their Karma to suffer, and only by breaking free of the cycle of death and rebirth can they end the suffering.

So, it isn't really "punishment" that tsunamis happen. It's just Karma. It happens. It happens because you are still present, because with all your past lives, you still haven't found a way out.

Or, it's possible that the Lama is just way outside of mainstream Buddhism.

[Vitnir]

Quote: What I say is, you have totally misunderstood the Buddhist concept of Karma.

Yes, I have no problem admitting that I know little about other religions than Christianity and I'l take Ryokans and Meadmakers word for that Dalai Lama doesnt represent all Buddhists. I'm not an expert on Dalai anyway so I have no way of knowing if he usually say these things or if the quote was mangled in all the translations. I guess I got myself a new subject to read about now, you never realize you know nothing about a subject until you start asking about it.
Good or bad the Dalai was the personification of Buddhism to me until now and I was probably not alone.

[Ryokan]

Yes, the Dalai Lama is often seen as 'The Pope of Buddhism'. But the truth is, Tibetan Buddhism is wastly different from, hmm, shall we say mainstream Buddhism?

Some differences :

- Tibetan Buddhism has a pantheon of gods, while Buddhism is agnostic (Some Chinese denominations also have gods or heavenly beings).

- Buddhism teaches that the way to enlightenment is meditation and/or study of the teachings of the Buddha, while Tibetan Buddhism teaches that there are shortcuts through the use of 'magic'.

- Tibetan Buddhism believes in 'true' reincarnation of the self, while Buddhism teaches that there is no self to reincarnate.

The Dalai Lama has also revealed that he supports the 'theory' of Intelligent Design! (Source) (http://www.pfm.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=BreakPoint1&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=17039)

[fruit_loup]

It may need to be noted that even within Tibetan Buddhism the Dalai Lama is still far from a final say on the matter. He has spoken on several occasions about how a person is free to accept or reject any opinion he holds, any aspect of Tibetan Buddhism, and any aspect of Buddhism in general. The deities are a cultural carryover which I see simply as being an effect generated by Buddhisms stance of finding out for oneself, "I like all this Buddhist stuff but I believe in these deities. What, you say that is ok with Buddhism? Well then that is the way to go." Take the Chinese Buddhist deities Ryokan mentioned, the same deities can be found in much of China's Taoist beliefs as well. Taoism is like Buddhism in that at the core of it is a philosophy, a certain ideal for living, but can be built and expanded upon by personal or cultural systems. So if we see a people with a strong deity belief before either philosophy is introduced into the region it is expected aspects of that deity belief will remain. This is seen in the deities of Bon becoming part of Tibetan tradition and within Chinese, Thai, and Korean deities working their way into some of the various forms of Buddhism each respective group practices.

[Vitnir]

One thing a Buddhist must deal with oh so many times, is the misunderstood concepts of Karma and Reincarnation.



Source (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm)

My interpretation, and a very common interpretation, is that Karma isn't working on individual basis, but on large groups. If this generation does bad deeds, the next generation will suffer for it. Vice versa for good deeds.

That was a good link, too much condensed information to process in one go but I get the impression that Karma is only one of 5 process that influence us and that Karma deals with our mental state rather than physical things.

[Dancing David]

I recently read that Dalai Lama had said in an interview that the reason the people in Tibet was suffering was because of (their?) bad karma. My question if anyone knows is, how do buddhist combine the feeling of compassion to people who suffer while also having the opinion that they had it coming? Just blank denial that there is a problem like all fundies?


Do you have a citation of this quote. I am curious about his actual words, he was very misquoted after hurrican e Katrina.

[fruit_loup]

I listened to an interesting Dhama talk online last night. It was given by the Tibetan nun Robina Courtin and she was discussing karma. She said she got into a discussion on karma with a kabbalist rabbi (which amused me as Tibetan Buddhism does a good bit for Buddhism that Kabbala does for Judaism) on misunderstandings of the role of Karma. Her talk boiled down to how karma works on the small scale and on the large scale. I am horrible at quoting and would not be able to get it close if I tried(one of my failings is the mangling of quotes). Essentially what I took from it, when applied to the plight of Tibet, is that karma does not boild down to the actions of a single person, or single nation as karma is cause and effect. So the karma involved in the Chinese "liberation" of Tibet would not belong simply to the Tibetans or to the Chinese but to a host of factors of cause and effect. Tibetans asked the U.N. for help, for example. Thus the karma of the U.N. would play a role. That is just an off-the-top-of-my-head example but it works methinks. I shall attempt to find a transcript of the talk if any would like. While not the Dalai Lama, it does give an example of a Tibetan Buddhist approach to karma.

[Meadmaker]

I mentioned the cycle of birth and death and the end of suffering, and how it was the karma of all people to suffer unitl they break the cycle. However, don't take that explanation as a very good explanation. The whole idea of reincarnation in Buddhism is very different from our popular conception of reincarnation.

More importantly, it should also be noted that in Buddhist thought, it isn't tsunamis or communist invasions that cause suffering. Suffering arises from the mind itself. We are all going to die. What is it about dying suddenly in a tsunami that creates more suffering?

I am reminded of one of my favorite Buddhist stories, that I heard in a Unitarian sermon.

A monk was meditating sitting on a path in the jungle, when he saw a tiger coming down the path. He didn't know what was in the other direction, but he ran that way, away from the tiger. The path ended in a high cliff, and the tiger was catching him, so he jumped. Fortunately, just underneath the cliff, there was a branch growing out the side, which he caught and hung onto. Unfortunately, the tiger was still there at the top of the cliff, and the monk's weight was pulling the branch out of the cliff. If it fell, he would surely be dashed on the rocks hundreds of feet below. Just as the branch was about to pull out from the cliff, the monk noticed a strawberry growing out of a vine right next to the branch. He reached up, plucked it, ate it, and thought, "Ahh.. Delicious."

[Vitnir]

Do you have a citation of this quote. I am curious about his actual words, he was very misquoted after hurrican e Katrina.
The interview was obviously in english, it was then translated into swedish, then I translated it to english again so it may well be a bit mangled. After reading a bit of the theory of Karma in the link above I'm still a bit confused, the text is a bit illiterate and hard to understand. Almost as if it has been translated into english by someone not very good at english. Buddhism deny that your past actions can come back to haunt you in the form of disease, tsunamis, hurricanes etc but then still say its connected to Karma in a way I dont get. At least its not readily explained how disasters are connected with Karma since they happen to a lot of people at the same time.

[Vitnir]

...
More importantly, it should also be noted that in Buddhist thought, it isn't tsunamis or communist invasions that cause suffering. Suffering arises from the mind itself. We are all going to die. What is it about dying suddenly in a tsunami that creates more suffering?
...
In a strickt sense it is true that suffering is created by the mind but I still think the tsunami/invasion plays a vital role. I think I won't buy into Buddhism myself but its interesting to see how others think.

[Dancing David]

I remeber that when hurricane Katrina occured the DL made a comment about how karma impacted the situations that occur in natural disasters. In the strict buddhist sense I believe that karma is merely the consequences of thoughts and actions.

a. global warming: some believe that this is making huricanes worse.
b. the destruction of coastal wetlands through various means:some believe that this made the storm surge worse.
c. the construction of levees: then the lack of maintainence.
d. a socio-economic system that subsidises the rich and powerful and abandons the poor
e. an evacuation plan that did not provide for people that don't have cars
f. people blaming the porr and refusing them to walk across bridges to safety for a wide variety of ignorant reasons
g. building a large city in a coastal flood plain
h. abandoning the pumping stations
i. many governments being more concerned about looking good rather than being good

These are all human choices that may have impacted the hurricaner Katrina disaster. Much less the many thought which have added to the problems.

[Dancing David]

In a strickt sense it is true that suffering is created by the mind but I still think the tsunami/invasion plays a vital role. I think I won't buy into Buddhism myself but its interesting to see how others think.
It is important to understand that the stance of the buddha was explanatory and non-judgemental. The oral tradition states that the buddha often spoke in medical terms.

1. There are causes of suffering.
2. Through gentle understanding suffering can be reduced.

this is the a simplification of the formula, but basicaly the principles.

Attachment to non-imporatant things leads to suffering, fear of non-imporatant things leads to suffering. The human condition creates suffering which we can always make worse by our reactions to it. This does not mean that human attachment and fear are the only causes of suffering, just that we make choices that can increase or decrease suffering.