Questions about Chemical Bondings?

[Kumar]

Hello,

Let me change the subject & see the result.:)

1. In molecular bonding of atoms of same molecules, whether all atoms bind at same site/point of itself & other atom/s or can these sites be different in every bonding?

2. If not at same site, will/can it effect quality, property or structure of different molecule with same chemical composition?

3. If yes, can bonding sites on atoms be altered by any mean?

Best wishes.

[steenkh]

I do not believe atoms have any features that makes it sensible to talk about bonding points. They have no north, south, or any kind of coordinate system. When they bond with other atoms these bondings relate to each others in specific angles depending on how all the atoms repel or attract each other.

[Kumar]

I do not believe atoms have any features that makes it sensible to talk about bonding points. They have no north, south, or any kind of coordinate system. When they bond with other atoms these bondings relate to each others in specific angles depending on how all the atoms repel or attract each other.

Hello steenkh,

But still directions/form of atoms should be there, and on electron spins, can't their be different bonding sites?

Can different molecules of same substance be different in any way? Whether molecular arreangements can be different in one lattice making it different than others?

[Wudang]

First, find out
what an atom is as your question says you don't know
what a molecule is, and the difference between it and atom and between both and an element.
For your further questions, the term is "chemical isomers". To change one into another requires basically taking the whole thing apart and putting it back together.

[Kumar]

First, find out
what an atom is as your question says you don't know
what a molecule is, and the difference between it and atom and between both and an element.
For your further questions, the term is "chemical isomers". To change one into another requires basically taking the whole thing apart and putting it back together.

These can be just one & many.:)

Anyway thanks.

In chemistry, isomers are molecules with the same chemical formula and often with the same kinds of bonds between atoms, but in which the atoms are arranged differently. Many isomers share similar if not identical properties in most chemical contexts.

A simple example of isomerism is given by propanol: it has the formula C3H8O (or C3H7OH) and the isomers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isomer

Let me ask directly about my thought, if you don't mind.

Can there be any isomeric change in carriers(water, alcohol or lactose) molecules due to homeopathic potentization process?

[burrahobbit]

Kumar

Molecules are not actually like those nice three dimensional models that are printed in books. And electrons do not spin like a top

The truth is much more complicated.

Read a good physics book.

BTW Water does not have any isomers. And succussing cannot change one isomer to another. Also the properties of the different isomers are quite well known and are non homeopathic

[MRC_Hans]

Let me ask directly about my thought, if you don't mind.Yes, that would be a good idea if you did that. Would save a lot of trouble.

Can there be any isomeric change in carriers(water, alcohol or lactose) molecules due to homeopathic potentization process?

Because then we could go straight to the answer:

:notm:

None whatsoever.

Hans

[clarsct]

Ummmmmmm..

Wow.


Kumar.

There are these great things at Amazon.com called CHEMISTRY TEXTBOOKS. Read one. Read many. Even a basic High School chemistry text should disabuse you of any such notion.

[MRWiffen]

Kumar

Molecules are not actually like those nice three dimensional models that are printed in books. And electrons do not spin like a top

The truth is much more complicated.

Read a good physics book.

BTW Water does not have any isomers. And succussing cannot change one isomer to another. Also the properties of the different isomers are quite well known and are non homeopathic
I'd recomend a good physchem book where it explains atomic and molecular orbitals and how they interact. Or to simplify it take a rubber ball and make a mark on it. Throw it high in the air and see if when it lands the spot is in the same orientation as before (roughly an s-orbital bonding site i.e. hydrogen) Oxygen is more complex, it has p-orbitals whcih has three sets of crossing lines (think of a three dimensional graph). These orbitals are all the same, there is nothing special about any of them to give a person the ability to orient them in space. The earth (which people seem to use as a reference) has an up and down associated because of the magnetic field, atoms and molecules do not.

[MRC_Hans]

*snip*The earth (which people seem to use as a reference) has an up and down associated because of the magnetic field, atoms and molecules do not.Pssst! Gravity. Gravity is the word. Magnetism has little to do with our sense of up and down (not that it matters to Kumar, who hasn't a clue in the first place).

Hans

[Kumar]

Kumar

Molecules are not actually like those nice three dimensional models that are printed in books. And electrons do not spin like a top

The truth is much more complicated.

Read a good physics book.

BTW Water does not have any isomers. And succussing cannot change one isomer to another. Also the properties of the different isomers are quite well known and are non homeopathic

Btw, Do you find any difference (even minor) betwwen distilled water in different bottles or in other substances? If no figure/dimentions are there how isomers can be there?

[Kumar]

Ummmmmmm..

Wow.


Kumar.

There are these great things at Amazon.com called CHEMISTRY TEXTBOOKS. Read one. Read many. Even a basic High School chemistry text should disabuse you of any such notion.

Sorry, but whatever for, I am trying to add to science dynamically, may not be available in routines? :) Can it be?

[Kumar]

Yes, that would be a good idea if you did that. Would save a lot of trouble.



Because then we could go straight to the answer:

:notm:

None whatsoever.

Hans

Yes.

Slightest change in structure?Think dynamically.:D

[Kumar]

Pssst! Gravity. Gravity is the word. Magnetism has little to do with our sense of up and down (not that it matters to Kumar, who hasn't a clue in the first place).

Hans

During potentization, how gravity can effect disassociated particles or molecules? How MF/aura(name it scientifically) of disassociated particles/molecules can be effected on potentization?

[MRC_Hans]

Sorry, but whatever for, I am trying to add to science dynamically, may not be available in routines? :) Can it be?Translation: Nooo I don't want to learn something real! All I want is to entertain my own ideas.

(in Kumarese, "dynamic" = "anyhing that pops into Kumar's mind")

Hans

[Kumar]

Translation: Nooo I don't want to learn something real! All I want is to entertain my own ideas.

Hans

Then we may not add but just can read/repeat.:rolls:

I may also like/want to entertain my ideas.

[MRC_Hans]

During potentization, how gravity can effect disassociated particles or molecules? How MF/aura(name it scientifically) of disassociated particles/molecules can be effected on potentization?Nonsense. MF/aura? Do you mean shedded skin particles? (that was IIRR your last bid for what aura is :rolleyes:.

Slightest change in structure?Think dynamically.
"Think dynamically" means: Be wrong.

Kumar, there is no measuarable change in structure in water before and after shaking it. Once the agitation stops and any temperature rise dissipates, there is no difference. None. Nada. Zilch. There may be some little water cluster at the surface tension zone that has changed, but water clusters are notoriously unstable and change all the time. Kumar, there is nothing there.

Hans

[Kumar]

Nonsense. MF/aura? Do you mean shedded skin particles? (that was IIRR your last bid for what aura is :rolleyes:.


"Think dynamically" means: Be wrong.

Kumar, there is no measuarable change in structure in water before and after shaking it. Once the agitation stops and any temperature rise dissipates, there is no difference. None. Nada. Zilch. There may be some little water cluster at the surface tension zone that has changed, but water clusters are notoriously unstable and change all the time. Kumar, there is nothing there.

Hans

What about by mixing other substance initially, potentise & dilute it out later?

[Wudang]

Sorry, but whatever for, I am trying to add to science dynamically, may not be available in routines? :) Can it be?

How can you add to something when you willfully remain ignorant of it? Why anyone chooses to remain ignorant when knowledge is available always baffles me.

[MRC_Hans]

What about it? Kumar, "potentize" means shake. What do you think happens when something is shaken? It gets mixed, if there is anything to mix. Physical agitation is used ALL the time in laboratories and factories. It mixes things, period.

Hans

[Mojo]

Btw, Do you find any difference (even minor) betwwen distilled water in different bottles or in other substances? No. Water is water. If no figure/dimentions are there how isomers can be there?Water doesn't have any isomers.

[Mojo]

Can different molecules of same substance be different in any way? No. All molecules of a particular substance are identical. If they were different they would be molecules of a different substance.

[Rolfe]

What about by mixing other substance initially, potentise & dilute it out later?It's deja vu all over again.

I think I'll put Kumar back on ignore....

Rolfe.

[Donks]

It's deja vu all over again.

I think I'll put Kumar back on ignore....

Rolfe.
I can't wait for H-H-O H-O-H and O-H-H to make a comeback.

[MRC_Hans]

The HO HO HO HO is already here.

Hans

[Donks]

The HO HO HO HO is already here.

Hans
And just who are you calling a ho, mister?

[anor277]

The HO HO HO HO is already here.

Hans


PSST, don't tell Kumar about hydrogen bonding.

[MRC_Hans]

And just who are you calling a ho, mister?Chi Minh.

Hans

[flume]

Because then we could go straight to the answer:
None whatsoever.
HansWell, not quite correct.
I'm posting without having read all of this engaging thread, but I believe you are incorrect about lactose having isomers and also about the effect of potentizing.
In the past I believe I quoted from a paper from pubmed where they found a percentage change in two isomers of lactose after grinding it in a ball mill. Note that at least one homeopathic company in the US uses a ball mill for trituration.
Now, does it matter at all if there is a slight difference in percent between alpha lactose and beta lactose? Hard to imagine.
If it were to matter you'd have to give a real explanation, Kumar, not just something like "but still, there may be something ..."

(I'm going by memory here, and as I said, my memory is not all that trustworthy.)

[Rolfe]

Never heard of that one. I don't suppose you have a link? However, the vast majority of homoeopathic remedies actually used only incorporate lactose (or other sugar - the one I got was mostly sucrose) at the end point, when a drop of the liquid potency is introduced to the unpotentised sugar pill.

I think Kumar knows about hydrogen bonding. I'm sure it's been explained to him several times why that explanation won't fly either.

Rolfe.

[luchog]

http://www.speakeasy.org/~hardrock/pictures/wombat7ttissp.jpg

[flume]

Never heard of that one. I don't suppose you have a link? However, the vast majority of homoeopathic remedies actually used only incorporate lactose (or other sugar - the one I got was mostly sucrose) at the end point, when a drop of the liquid potency is introduced to the unpotentised sugar pill.Yes, I meant to add that it wouldn't apply to the homeopathic remedies dropped onto sugar pills. (It may apply to Kumar's favorite TRS though.)

Isomerization of lactose in solid-state by mechanical stress during grinding.

(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1675269&query_hl=1)

[burrahobbit]

Guess we have said all that there is to say.

Incidentally Kumar did not change the subject (as his thread start promised) Same old Homeopathy bunkum.

[Kumar]

What about it? Kumar, "potentize" means shake. What do you think happens when something is shaken? It gets mixed, if there is anything to mix. Physical agitation is used ALL the time in laboratories and factories. It mixes things, period.

Hans

I may get/give some knowledge by potentising/shaking? You know that for potentization of any new remedy, we have to start from the start/raw/previous?

[Kumar]

How can you add to something when you willfully remain ignorant of it? Why anyone chooses to remain ignorant when knowledge is available always baffles me.

I may get/give some knowledge by potentising/shaking? You know that for potentization of any new remedy, we have to start from the class I/raw/previous? :D Moreover, due to much over-load, i may have to refresh/update everytime. Still moreover, I have clarified my position in my signatures, so pls don't mind & try to contribute? Others feel bit different as misunderstood.

Anyway, can there be any difference in a sucstance/lattice due to difference in inter/molecular arrangements/forces

[Kumar]

Well, not quite correct.
I'm posting without having read all of this engaging thread, but I believe you are incorrect about lactose having isomers and also about the effect of potentizing.
In the past I believe I quoted from a paper from pubmed where they found a percentage change in two isomers of lactose after grinding it in a ball mill. Note that at least one homeopathic company in the US uses a ball mill for trituration.
Now, does it matter at all if there is a slight difference in percent between alpha lactose and beta lactose? Hard to imagine.
If it were to matter you'd have to give a real explanation, Kumar, not just something like "but still, there may be something ..."

(I'm going by memory here, and as I said, my memory is not all that trustworthy.)

flume, thaks. That is the way to add knowledges, in true/justified sense. e should be bit informal alike you posted as knowledge/logics can be personal also.

You know GOD/Nature has not made all humans similar/alike inspite of the fact all are one kind of animal--somewhat alike molecular differences as I am trying to understand dynamically..:)

I think I read this aspect previously, I think you or some other indicated. But It was there.

[MRWiffen]

I may get/give some knowledge by potentising/shaking? You know that for potentization of any new remedy, we have to start from the start/raw/previous?
If I pick you up and shake you hard enough will you get some knowledge, or will you remain the same as? My money would be on remain the same.

[clarsct]

Oh man, would I be willing to try, though!!!

(Although I feel I should give the first honors to Rolfe or MRC_Hans, who have dealt with him longer....)

[MRWiffen]

It may take a few of us to "potentise" him hard enough though.

[Rolfe]

.... or will you remain the same as? ....I think you missed out an "s" there....

Rolfe.

[MRC_Hans]

I may get/give some knowledge by potentising/shaking? You know that for potentization of any new remedy, we have to start from the start/raw/previous?How? There are, currently, about 4500 homeopathic remedies (I am ignoring the more exotic ones, like moonbeams :rolleyes: ), many of them based on highly complex organic mother tinctures. Can you point to any, even putative, mechanism that could store, permanently and reliably, unique information about 4500 complex compounds? A mechanism that works in water, and alcohol, AND lactose? And the effects they are supposed to have on the organism run into hundreds, for each remedy.

Kumar, you are talking about a few isomers, and some homeopaths talk about water clusters (there are 48 known types of water clusters, all highly unstable). But you are in need of a mechanism that reliably and permanently stores MEGABITS of information, and can transfer them between media. And one that can subsequently be decoded by the body by simply putting the remedy in your mouth :rolleyes:.

Maybe the folly of this is not clear to you, but it certainly is to the rest of us.

Hans

[KingMerv00]

Kumar,

I dilute solutions and test them for a living. I get results that differ.

What am I doing wrong?

When I get the time, I will start a separate thread so we can chat about this.

[Rolfe]

Kumar,

I dilute solutions and test them for a living. I get results that differ.

What am I doing wrong?

When I get the time, I will start a separate thread so we can chat about this.I also dilute substances and test them for a living. I have previously tried to engage Kumar on this matter, to no effect. If you ever get such a dialogue going, I will be glad to participate.

Rolfe.

[geni]

You know GOD/Nature has not made all humans similar/alike inspite of the fact all are one kind of animal--somewhat alike molecular differences as I am trying to understand dynamically..:)



An electron is an electron is an electron.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I post this (http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showthread.php?p=1037007&highlight=isomerism#post1037007) as a warning to the unwary. Kumar is doing this to annoy!

[Mojo]

I post this (http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showthread.php?p=1037007&highlight=isomerism#post1037007) as a warning to the unwary. Kumar is doing this to annoy!I was looking for that only this morning. I knew it was in one of MAS's threads, but I looked in the wrong ones. I did find several very amusing kumarisms, but not the one I was after.

[Kumar]

This discovery, which is called Potential Mass Theory, is essential to the understanding and accurate measurement of electromagnetic fields, and thus all paranormal phenomena...Conversely, every measurable field of electromagnetic energy is capable of manifesting as a certain amount of mass, m, as determined by the Einstein equation.The reality of manifestation, however, is that some energies remain electromagnetic, and do not manifest as mass, and some energies that do manifest retain large amounts of uninanifested energy as mental or life force energy.

http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=6363

It looks quite interesting, but can you comment on ot?

[Mojo]

It looks quite interesting, but can you comment on ot?http://www.beercoastguard.org/_borders/Alert2.gif

Oh look: my woowoo detector's gone off.

[Donks]

It looks quite interesting, but can you comment on ot?
Sure, I'll comment. Somebody who doesn't understand physics heard some buzzwords and concepts and made a mishmash of new age bullcrap and said buzzwords. I mean, "The reality of manifestation, however, is that some energies remain electromagnetic, and do not manifest as mass, and some energies that do manifest retain large amounts of uninanifested energy as mental or life force energy." that right there is pure unadulterated bull****.

[Mojo]

It looks quite interesting, but can you comment on ot?Incidentally, why did you feel the need to snip parts of the quotation after you posted it? Were they too far out even for you?

[Kumar]

Kumar,

I dilute solutions and test them for a living. I get results that differ.

What am I doing wrong?

When I get the time, I will start a separate thread so we can chat about this.

I shall be happy to chat and will wait. Pls post at some free time. Bye.:)

[Kumar]

Incidentally, why did you feel the need to snip parts of the quotation after you posted it? Were they too far out even for you?

Prevailing Modern atmosphere here & there.

It may make you to loose & gain both so....

[Mojo]

Sure, I'll comment. Somebody who doesn't understand physics heard some buzzwords and concepts and made a mishmash of new age bullcrap and said buzzwords. I mean, "The reality of manifestation, however, is that some energies remain electromagnetic, and do not manifest as mass, and some energies that do manifest retain large amounts of uninanifested energy as mental or life force energy." that right there is pure unadulterated bull****.Have you seen the rest of the post he snipped it from (it's not actually on the page Kumar linked to, BTW; it's on page 2 of the thread)? That looks like this week's "Woo of the Week" winner right there.

[MRC_Hans]

It looks quite interesting, but can you comment on ot?Yes:

It is pure and unadulterated technobabble. There is not even ONE sentence in it that makes sense.

ETA: Note btw that "cellsalts" who posted the diatribe above has said this, earlier in the thread:

The rationale of Urinetherapy is based on these transmutated trace minerals besides enzymes and hormones. I drink a morning mid-stream sample of my urine daily.

We are dealing with somebody who drinks his own urine, regularly :rolleyes:.



Hans

[Kumar]

How? There are, currently, about 4500 homeopathic remedies (I am ignoring the more exotic ones, like moonbeams :rolleyes: ), many of them based on highly complex organic mother tinctures. Can you point to any, even putative, mechanism that could store, permanently and reliably, unique information about 4500 complex compounds? A mechanism that works in water, and alcohol, AND lactose? And the effects they are supposed to have on the organism run into hundreds, for each remedy.

Kumar, you are talking about a few isomers, and some homeopaths talk about water clusters (there are 48 known types of water clusters, all highly unstable). But you are in need of a mechanism that reliably and permanently stores MEGABITS of information, and can transfer them between media. And one that can subsequently be decoded by the body by simply putting the remedy in your mouth :rolleyes:.

Maybe the folly of this is not clear to you, but it certainly is to the rest of us.

Hans

There can be some "somewhat resembling groups" or combinations of similar constituents, working somewhat similarily as you people also work in cordination for example. Moreover, as they talk about "vital force", it can be alike "prime force?" with some "Omni....properties". It is bit complexed/yet unclear but when clear, everything can be clear. So pls pursue to clear it(may not be possible for most as indicated in spritual sayings as Omni...still indescribable & infinite).

Btw, what about possibilty of "inter molecular changes in structure, form or foeces"? Can it cause something in carriers?

[Donks]

Have you seen the rest of the post he snipped it from (it's not actually on the page Kumar linked to, BTW; it's on page 2 of the thread)? That looks like this week's "Woo of the Week" winner right there.
Lots of font sizes! 2 different colors! Now I'm convinced! Can you argue with "Light is liquified Gas?" No, I had not seen it , and it is magnificent, thanks :)
BTW, the original source may be a 250 pages, $250 "book" sold here. (http://www.item-bioenergy.com/bookstore/index.aspx) "Potential Mass Theory" is on page 93. And they sell the Brain Optimization & Synchronization System™ (http://www.item-bioenergy.com/boss/index.html) so you know the site is pure science.

[Donks]

It is bit complexed/yet unclear but when clear, everything can be clear.
Pure gold.
Btw, what about possibilty of "inter molecular changes in structure, form or foeces"? Can it cause something in carriers?
You misspelled feces.

[MRC_Hans]

There can be some "somewhat resembling groups" or combinations of similar constituents, working somewhat similarily as you people also work in cordination for example.
No. They are different compounds. Of course they have similar constituents, there are only so many elements to form them, but they are still DIFFERENT substances with DIFFERENT properties, just like two houses can be built from the same materials, but be different.

Moreover, as they talk about "vital force", it can be alike "prime force?" with some "Omni....properties".Nonsense.

It is bit complexed/yet unclear but when clear, everything can be clear. So pls pursue to clear it(may not be possible for most as indicated in spritual sayings as Omni...still indescribable & infinite).It's quite clear, Kumar: You don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

Btw, what about possibilty of "inter molecular changes in structure, form or foeces"? Can it cause something in carriers?Like part exitations, you mean? I think we did cover that territory in some detail :nope:.

Better go back to exploring itches, Kumar. You are on more familiar ground there.

Hans

[Mojo]

We are dealing with somebody who drinks his own urine, regularly :rolleyes:. Perhaps he's taking the p...











I'll get my coat.

[Mojo]

BTW, the original source may be a 250 pages, $250 "book" sold here. (http://www.item-bioenergy.com/bookstore/index.aspx)Nice to see the woos ripping each other off.

[Kumar]

Yes:

It is pure and unadulterated technobabble. There is not even ONE sentence in it that makes sense.

ETA: Note btw that "cellsalts" who posted the diatribe above has said this, earlier in the thread:



We are dealing with somebody who drinks his own urine, regularly :rolleyes:.



Hans

Yes, that also made me bit surprised in consideration of our previous discussions. I just thought to check with you as it was quite technical and something new also. I also feel that it should not be possible. Thanks. An addition.:)

[Kumar]

No. They are different compounds. Of course they have similar constituents, there are only so many elements to form them, but they are still DIFFERENT substances with DIFFERENT properties, just like two houses can be built from the same materials, but be different. you mean somewhat isomer.:D

It is ok that they were different houses.

Nonsense.

Yes, whose sense couldn't be yet known can be taken alike it. Let us wait.

It's quite clear, Kumar: You don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

If "prime one force" of all forces is clear, pls post into Religion forum immediately.. as they are fighting it sice long in mass.:)

Like part exitations, you mean? I think we did cover that territory in some detail :nope:.

We may have to look it more deeply--- differences in building material vs. houses AND/OR different houses with same materials.

Better go back to exploring itches, Kumar. You are on more familiar ground there.