Teflon pans

[joesixpack]

For years and years, I have had the worst luck with non-stick cookware. The teflon coating would always chip off in spite of the fact that I never used metal spoons or spatulas, and always used a sponge to clean them. A few years ago, My dad told me that the propellent used in Pam and other spray oils (I think it's butane, but I'm not sure) destroys the teflon. Well, I stopped using the spray oil about four years back and lo, I have four year old teflon frying pans that look new.

My queation is, is it really the spray oil propellent that damages the coating? Or is it just coincidence, i.e., maybe there's some other factor I'm not taking into consideration?

Any chemists here in a position to know?

[billydkid]

For years and years, I have had the worst luck with non-stick cookware. The teflon coating would always chip off in spite of the fact that I never used metal spoons or spatulas, and always used a sponge to clean them. A few years ago, My dad told me that the propellent used in Pam and other spray oils (I think it's butane, but I'm not sure) destroys the teflon. Well, I stopped using the spray oil about four years back and lo, I have four year old teflon frying pans that look new.

My queation is, is it really the spray oil propellent that damages the coating? Or is it just coincidence, i.e., maybe there's some other factor I'm not taking into consideration?

Any chemists here in a position to know?
I find it hard to believe that Pam or its propellant harms the surface. I am kind of surprised you have so much trouble these days. Teflon coating are vastly more rugged than they used to be. We have a set of pans that you couldn't scrape the stuff off with a steel spatula if you tried. We do also have some more cheaply made pans on which the coating seems to just fall off, but you shouldn't have too much trouble with decent quality stuff.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

For years and years, I have had the worst luck with non-stick cookware. The teflon coating would always chip off in spite of the fact that I never used metal spoons or spatulas, and always used a sponge to clean them. A few years ago, My dad told me that the propellent used in Pam and other spray oils (I think it's butane, but I'm not sure) destroys the teflon. Well, I stopped using the spray oil about four years back and lo, I have four year old teflon frying pans that look new.

My queation is, is it really the spray oil propellent that damages the coating? Or is it just coincidence, i.e., maybe there's some other factor I'm not taking into consideration?

Any chemists here in a position to know?

Why were you using PAM in a non-stick skillet? :confused:

[Soapy Sam]

Never used PAM. Olive oil mostly.
Now I think about it, my pans are all cast iron, enamelled.
So what the blazes am I drivelling about, I hear you ask.

Good question.

[alfaniner]

A few years ago I bought a set of cast-iron skillets. It took a while to get them seasoned properly, but now they are practically as non-stick as any Teflon pan.

[Lisa Simpson]

It may be that you are buying a "better" brand of Teflon. DuPont (http://www.teflon.com/NASApp/Teflon/TeflonPageServlet?GXHC_gx_session_id_=GXLiteSessio nID-3417787891549223569&pageId=/consumer/na/eng/housewares/cookware/cookware/nonStick/brands/teflon_brands_home.html) has several levels.

[richardm]

The instructions for my non-stick pans expressly tell you not to use spray-on oil, presumably for exactly this reason. What the underlying cause of the problem is, I have no idea, though.

[Lisa Simpson]

Near as I can find, non-stick sprays can leave a gummy residue, but a quick Google couldn't find anything saying PAM destoys the teflon.

[Beerina]

Or you could buy a new set for $20 at K-Mart every year or two.

[bluess]

The instructions with my latest set advised against the use of non-stick sprays and also against using high heat. After my first comment (What the ?#$*(#W$ good is a fry pan you can't fry in?) I found that this particular set seems to distribute heat very nicely - so you heat up a little longer and then life is good.

[Goshawk]

The reason that you use non-stick spray on a supposedly non-stick pan is that no non-stick pan, even fresh from the factory, is ever quite as slippery as your omelet-making requires it to be. So, you use a tiny squirt of Pam, which improves the performance 100%.

A tiny squirt of Pam is also how you get your fat-free fried potatoes and fat-free flattened boneless skinless chicken breast to brown a bit.

[Lisa Simpson]

The instructions with my latest set advised against the use of non-stick sprays and also against using high heat. After my first comment (What the ?#$*(#W$ good is a fry pan you can't fry in?) I found that this particular set seems to distribute heat very nicely - so you heat up a little longer and then life is good.

There are some reports that heating a teflon pan--empty--over high heat can cause a chemical to be released into the air. Other studies say that isn't true. Regardless, most pans are not used over high heat because the pan itself will warp.

[Metullus]

How exactly do you get Pam to squirt, at what does she have to say about it?

Actually, I think there is another thread on just this subject. I just don't remember what its called...

[jj]

Never used PAM. Olive oil mostly.
Now I think about it, my pans are all cast iron, enamelled.
So what the blazes am I drivelling about, I hear you ask.

Good question.

That's funny, I was about to say "Two words: Cast Iron".

Le Crusett or imatators work great. Just a bit harder to pick up and hold on to than the light stuff.

[Iamme]

Why were you using PAM in a non-stick skillet? :confused:

Ha. That's a good one. Ha.

Maybe it be akin to if you are on an ice rink and someone didn't think that was slippery enough, so he decided to pour oil on the ice.

[Iamme]

The instructions for my non-stick pans expressly tell you not to use spray-on oil, presumably for exactly this reason. What the underlying cause of the problem is, I have no idea, though.

Well, I had put either oven cleaner or an acid based bathroom cleaner in a teflon pan for days, and I looked down in the forgotten pan one day and saw blisters. The teflon blisted off the pan, in areas! So, it must be possible that with certain products, there can be a reaction.

It wasn't a new pan though, and maybe, in theory, the cleaning product wicked into the exposed scratches and made the metal oily so that the teflon could no longer stick.

[Iamme]

How exactly do you get Pam to squirt, at what does she have to say about it?

Actually, I think there is another thread on just this subject. I just don't remember what its called...

Pam

squirts?

(Sounds 'dirty'). Maybe its on that *for over 18* thread.

[a_unique_person]

I have already been prozlotysing on this subject, if people would care to listen.

ANALON. It is the one true non-stick surface out there. Buy, and be truly happy.

My ANALON wok has not required the use of anything stronger than a sponge wipe yet, after two months of use.

[Hawk one]

Why were you using PAM in a non-stick skillet?

I don't know about joesixpack, but I don't care whether the pan is sticky or non-sticky. I always use some margarine to whatever I fry in a teflon pan, because of the improved taste this will give.

[clarsct]

Margarine? Improving the taste? of anything? What the HELL do you cook in Norway?

Anyway, Teflon is a mishmosh of CholorFluoroCarbons, actually. At temperatures over 400 degrees F, the Teflon becomes unstable and 'sticky'. I may be mistaken, but I believe the actual temperature is about 426. Anyway, once solidified, it forms a stable chemical structure that resists adhension. As for the PAM, the truth is that you may be adding a solvent that can dissolve nonpolar molecules, so you may be, indeed, be degrading the pans over time.

Personally, I use Royal Prestige skillets. Yes, they were expensive ($1400), but the titanium steel hardly ever has a problem with things sticking to it.

And it comes with a 50 yr warranty. I'm never buying pans again, unless I simply want a different skillet size or whatnot.

[Iamme]

How many skillets were included, for the $1400?

And what did you pay for your vacuum might I ask?

And your underwear. What about your underwear?

[Hawk one]

Margarine? Improving the taste? of anything? What the HELL do you cook in Norway?

Unlike you fellows, we have some good margarine over here. And I think most cooking oils are utter crap for frying, especially olive oil. Well, sunflower oil passes, but only barely.

[clarsct]

How many skillets were included, for the $1400?

And what did you pay for your vacuum might I ask?

And your underwear. What about your underwear?

4 actually.

As for the rest, well, I might have had the same reaction at one point. I certainly did when we walked in. Was I the victim of a good salesman? Oh, probably, to a degree. But, the pans and skillets go from the sink, to the drainer, to the stove. They never get put away, really. And they do what is claimed. I was skeptical, but they actually do what they claim.

That, and I hate teflon...HATE HATE HATE! It flakes into your food and you buy a new $20 pan every stinking year. The Cast Iron stuff is expensive, too, if you want the thick, heavy stuff that works well. *shrug*

Besides...they threw in a trip to Cancun on the deal, all inclusive. For someone who likes to cook, these things are pretty good. For someone who is frying up chicken nuggets..eh...well....maybe you might not want them.

BTW: I also sold Cutco knives...;)

[delphi_ote]

http://www.scottevest.com/v3_glossary/images_photos/teflon_pants.jpg

Sometimes I'm not very good at reading.

[David Swidler]

Are those trousers non-stick? I could use some.

[monoman]

Never used PAM. Olive oil mostly.
Now I think about it, my pans are all cast iron, enamelled.
So what the blazes am I drivelling about, I hear you ask.

Good question.

Olive oil shouldn't be used for all frying as it has a lower burning temperature than some other oils, such as sunflower. (You did say mostly though).

What is PAM?

[Darat]

I have already been prozlotysing on this subject, if people would care to listen.

ANALON. It is the one true non-stick surface out there. Buy, and be truly happy.

My ANALON wok has not required the use of anything stronger than a sponge wipe yet, after two months of use.

Seconded - analon pans over 5 years old and nary a scratch on them despite the occasional abuse with a metal fork and spoon.

[Darat]

See: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:jwTSpmH368sJ:www.dgfett.de/material/abstracts/hagen2000.pdfient=opera

[LTC8K6]

I have one that is around 10 years old and still works like new. At the time I got it, it was the top of the line and claimed you could go ahead and use metal utensils in it all you wanted. I think it was called "wearever". I do indeed use metal utensils in it, so I guess their claims weren't far off. It is just now beginning to show it's age with a few scratches here and there, but it is as non-stick as it ever was.

[Dave_46]

Olive oil shouldn't be used for all frying as it has a lower burning temperature than some other oils, such as sunflower. (You did say mostly though).


I use arachide (peanut ?) oil bought in France for frying. The label on the current bottle gives a max temperature of 210 deg C, although the next in line is only 180. I also sometimes use sunflower. Olive oil should be used for dressings.

Dave

[Darat]

I use arachide (peanut ?) oil bought in France for frying. The label on the current bottle gives a max temperature of 210 deg C, although the next in line is only 180. I also sometimes use sunflower. Olive oil should be used for dressings.

Dave

Olive oil is fine for frying, it just depends on the temperature you wish to fry at. If you wish to gentle saute say, onions and garlic, olive oil is fine. But if you wish to stir-fry it's no good, then you do need to use something like a groundnut oil.

[delphi_ote]

Are those trousers non-stick? I could use some.

Read the name of the image.

[roger]

Royal Prestige:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/royal_prestige.html
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/royal_prestige.html
http://www.oag.state.tx.us/newspubs/newsarchive/2001/20010913royal.htm
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/royal_prestige_bridal.html
http://boards.brides.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/7051083/m/77010346/r/538109801
http://www.partypop.com/Forums/General/m22720.htm


Even their own website states that they are nothing more than layers of aluminum, stainless steel, and copper. You can get a truly industrible pan of this construction from Mauviel or other commercial quality pans for under $100. I can't say I'm a fan of the pan shapes either, but that is a whole 'nother issue. I have 20 year old mauvel 2.5mm copper pans still going very, very strong that I didn't spend much money on, certainly far less than the quoted price. There is no way they will fail in 50 years, and even if they did, I could replace them several times before reaching the price of the Royal Prestige set. So what use a 50 year warranty? Riveted steel and copper just doesn't fail.

There's nothing magical about stainless steel not sticking.

I'm not trying to get all "show your evidence" on you clarset, but I am worried about other posters pursuing this brand. Besides the very dishonest business practices, these pans exhibit none of the qualites a professional chef looks for, or a home cook needs. Sorry.

[popsy]

There are some reports that heating a teflon pan--empty--over high heat can cause a chemical to be released into the air. Other studies say that isn't true.
_____________

It appears to be true. My neighbors in-house birds were all killed when a teflon coated griddle was over-heated.

[Dave_46]

Olive oil is fine for frying, it just depends on the temperature you wish to fry at. If you wish to gentle saute say, onions and garlic, olive oil is fine. But if you wish to stir-fry it's no good, then you do need to use something like a groundnut oil.

Trouble is, I get carried away and overheat olive oil a bit, thats why I tend to keep it for dressings.

Sauted onions and garlic sounds like a good start. Whats for dinner ?

Dave

[luchog]

I use arachide (peanut ?) oil bought in France for frying. The label on the current bottle gives a max temperature of 210 deg C, although the next in line is only 180. I also sometimes use sunflower. Olive oil should be used for dressings.

Dave
I generally use grapeseed oil for high-temp frying, since it has a smoke point slightly higher than peanut oil, but doesn't impart a strong flavour like peanut oil does. I do use peanut for most of my Asian cooking; though. Almond oil is also good, but considerably more expensive.

[Schneibster]

Olive oil hydrogenates too easily; dressings is right, and in the pasta water to keep it from sticking. I favor peanut and safflower oil. I try not to heat it more than absolutely necessary, to avoid hydrogenating it and making my heart problems worse.

I use not-too-expensive teflon pans for some things, well-seasoned Calphalon (many people aren't taught any more how to season a pan; a lost art?) for others; I never use Pam, and if I can keep my mother-in-law and wife from putting metal objects in them, the teflon pans last a long time; 6 years for the current longest-lived. Now I opened my fool mouth one of them will forget and use a fork to stir the eggs in the pan, or dump a bunch of silverware in one in the sink.

Heating a teflon-coated pan beyond about 400 degrees is reputed to remove the coating (and deposit it on the food :P ) but I have not witnessed the phenomenon; I heard it from a fellow cook who said he had, when I was a cook.

My guess is that the propellents in Pam dissolve the teflon, but I don't know it for certain; I do, however, know that teflon is a flourocarbon, and suspect that it might be vulnerable to certain sorts of propellents as solvents. Given I don't use it, I've never had the gumption to find out.

[Roboramma]

There are some reports that heating a teflon pan--empty--over high heat can cause a chemical to be released into the air. Other studies say that isn't true.
_____________

It appears to be true. My neighbors in-house birds were all killed when a teflon coated griddle was over-heated.
I've destroyed two teflon pans by burning them. One was when I turned on a burner thinking I'd turned on the kettle, and left the room. A half hour later, I thought, hey, wasn't I making tea?
I went into the kitchen, smelt a horrible smell, and saw a cloud of smoke. I put on an oven mit to take the pan off the stove and the handle came off. Just glad I didn't burn the house down.
The second one... actually I think my sister did that. It wasn't quite as bad, but the teflon burnt off completely. And the same horrible smell. Both times it took a little while to air out the place completely.

So teflon can burn right off at the right heat.

[ysabella]

Olive oil has a low smoke point, making it less good for frying. However, you can get a slightly higher smoke point if you purchase "extra light" olive oil - the only difference is, it's been filtered more thoroughly, so there aren't little olive particles in there to get all burny.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

I slapped down a few hundred dollars and went totally cast iron last year. Works like a champ. Why did people ever leave cast iron anyway?

LLH

[PatKelley]

I slapped down a few hundred dollars and went totally cast iron last year. Works like a champ. Why did people ever leave cast iron anyway?

LLH
I'm sorry, was that really a question, because it looks like you answered your post in the first part of the first sentence...

[JPK]

Good morning LordoftheLeftHand.

I slapped down a few hundred dollars and went totally cast iron last year. Works like a champ. Why did people ever leave cast iron anyway?

LLH

Agreed. I only have cast iron and stainless in my kitchen. (OK, a few copper) Not a non-stick to be found.
I would assume people avoid cast iron in general because of the weight. Perhaps because they think it's "old fashion". Who knows. They will of course be suffering from iron defficiancies.
JPK

[roger]

I slapped down a few hundred dollars and went totally cast iron last year. Works like a champ. Why did people ever leave cast iron anyway?

LLHHeat control. Cast iron is a terrible heat conductor. Which is a great thing when you want to sear a steak. Slap a steak on it and it barely changes temperature, continuing to pump out even heat. Whereas an aluminum pan, a great conductor, will cool down rapidly and the 'sizzle' stops in just a few seconds.

OTOH, if you are trying to make a sauce, you WANT that pan to react quickly, if the sauce requires different temperature profiles while performing different actions. A typical dish, say a simple chicken dish with a sauce you create from the pan drippings, can require several temperature changes (low to sweat the onions, high to sear the chicken, medium to cook the chicken, low/medium to create the sause, medium high to reduce it). I'd hate to wait around for cast iron to react to all of that.

[jj]

Heat control. Cast iron is a terrible heat conductor. Which is a great thing when you want to sear a steak. Slap a steak on it and it barely changes temperature, continuing to pump out even heat. Whereas an aluminum pan, a great conductor, will cool down rapidly and the 'sizzle' stops in just a few seconds.


No.

Cast Iron has a HIGH heat CAPACITY. That's why it stays hot. If it was solely an issue of low conductance, your steak would stop sizzling immediately.

[CBL4]

I think Lisa Simpson is correct. Canola oil leaves a nasty gummy residue and one point PAM had it in it.

You should use olive oil only if you want to get olive oil flavor. First cold pressed extra virgin olive oil makes a wonderful pasta sauce with a sauteed onions, garlic and whatever vegetables you want. Throw in some capers, sun-dried tomatos, balsamic vinegar or fresh basil for extra flavor. The secret is lots and lots of really good olive oil.

CBL

[kittynh]

so I thought this was a thread about how teflon coating are supposed to cause cancer. I thought there was some study into having a warning added.

Aluminium is supposed to cause Alzhiemers....

Cast iron is always good though!

[Schneibster]

Aluminium is supposed to cause Alzhiemers....I think someone disproved that; my understanding was that the latest findings were that it was a problem with the circulation of the CSF fluid, and toxins building up or something.

Cast iron has its advantages- I think it's seasoning it that gets everyone all flustered, or perhaps it IS the price. I like it.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

Unlike you fellows, we have some good margarine over here. And I think most cooking oils are utter crap for frying, especially olive oil. Well, sunflower oil passes, but only barely.

:p Gah! For basic pan frying it is butter (sometimes with a little olive oil). I spent a week with my hubby's grandparent's in The Netherlands (actually in the province of Holland) and they literally cooked in a pool of butter. We actually had steak braised (not fried) in a couple of centimeters (half a kilogram) of butter!

For Chinese cooking it is peanut oil and a well seasoned wok.

This weekend I plan to make Rosettes, which I will deep fry in corn oil (I've given up on making fatigman buckles, sp? which are also deep fried).

[PatKelley]

I think someone disproved that; my understanding was that the latest findings were that it was a problem with the circulation of the CSF fluid, and toxins building up or something.

Cast iron has its advantages- I think it's seasoning it that gets everyone all flustered, or perhaps it IS the price. I like it.
Oh, I love it! I have exactly one pan, and it's the only one that will make a perfect grilled cheese. Consistently nice even low heat, with no rises and dips to scorch or leave uncooked.

But I'd be hard pressed to buy one myself; the one I got is a hand-me-down - a "Griswold" out of Erie, Pennsylvania without the top. Lots of text etched in the bottom underneath, including patent numbers and the like.
(We're in Texas, just for reference)

[Kopji]

At about 680F (315C) Teflon releases phosgene gas, among a few other things. Thank you. Most Teflon cookware I've seen has a work rating of up to 400F (204C).
I have some interesting cookware that is flexible like rubber, but makes great muffins. Don't know if it is teflon, but imagine muffins delightfully crispy all around and not just on top...

I have a non stick waffle iron that says to always give it a short spray of oil to 'condition' it, whatever that means. The waffle iron is temperature controlled though.

'Pam' is a popular spray oil. These are usually used in low calorie or 'light' cooking.

[luchog]

For Chinese cooking it is peanut oil and a well seasoned wok.
Out of all my pans, my favorite is my hand-beaten carbon-steel wok. Great little thing, and definitely well-seasoned.. Unfortunately, it's a b1tch to cook with on an electric stove, so it doesn't get much use anymore. I miss having a gas stove.


We actually had steak braised (not fried) in a couple of centimeters (half a kilogram) of butter!

Zarquon. I think I just felt my arteries implode.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

...Zarquon. I think I just felt my arteries implode.
The really unfair part is that we both had our cholestoral tested. Mine was high... and dear hubby (grandson of the Dutch family whose recipes all seem to start with "melt a half kilo of butter in a pan") has extremely LOW cholestoral.I get back at him by forcing him to eat fish every couple of months or so (he does not like eating anything that once breathed water).

[luchog]

The really unfair part is that we both had our cholestoral tested. Mine was high... and dear hubby (grandson of the Dutch family whose recipes all seem to start with "melt a half kilo of butter in a pan") has extremely LOW cholestoral.I get back at him by forcing him to eat fish every couple of months or so (he does not like eating anything that once breathed water).
My SO's ex-husband is like that. Big fat Dutch boy, his idea of a sandwich includes a half-pound of cheese, his ideal of a television snack is a jar of mayonnaise and a big spoon. And the boy has a cholesterol count that would make Jack LaLanne envious.

I think it's something in the Dutch genome.

[roger]

No.

Cast Iron has a HIGH heat CAPACITY. That's why it stays hot. If it was solely an issue of low conductance, your steak would stop sizzling immediately.Of course, you're right. My physics was wrong, but the reason (for using or not using cast iron) was right.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I don't know about joesixpack, but I don't care whether the pan is sticky or non-sticky. I always use some margarine to whatever I fry in a teflon pan, because of the improved taste this will give.

In the history of cooking, margarine has never improved the taste of anything.

[kmortis]

In the history of cooking, margarine has never improved the taste of anything.


:clap::clap::clap:

Butter is the only way to go.


Well, butter and olive oil.


Well, ok, for certain Asian dishes I'll add some seasame oil for flavor, but that's an odd occasion.


And peanut oil is excellent for immersion frying.

[Hawk one]

In the history of cooking, margarine has never improved the taste of anything.

In the history of this forum, TCS has never been right about anything. :p

You come over to my house one day, and I'll fry you the best burger you've ever tasted. In margarine. And you will bow down before and call me your Supreme Master, and you will make me your holy icon of the FSMism.

:D

[casebro]

I've got to dive in here. Cast Iron is GREAT. Just don't boil anything in it, or steam clean it. Or soak in strong detergent, all of which wash out the 'seasoning' of oil. And it is probably better to use lard in it, or something else that has lots of the more stable saturated fats. But the protein in butter burns. I tried Gee once, but that jar was rancid. Besides, lard has 40% mono-unsaturated fat, more than anything else. And the Pork peole claim that it's Stearic (saturated fat) doesn't cause heart disease.....

One of my problems with teflon is that it won't hold enough oil to make a crisp, fried surface. Oil just beads up and runs off of my pancake griddle, so no crisp crust, what a disapointment.

The worst pan I ever had was a porcelin coated cast iron pot. It NEVER transmitted heat. I don't think it would boil water.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

...You come over to my house one day, and I'll fry you the best burger you've ever tasted. In margarine. And you will bow down before and call me your Supreme Master, and you will make me your holy icon of the FSMism.

:D

Actually, the absolutely best burger I ever had was grilled over a fire made with only mesquite wood! We had run out of the charcoal briquets, but had a stash of mesquite from my father's backyard (that we boxed up and checked as luggage on the airplane). :duck:

[Hawk one]

Actually, the absolutely best burger I ever had was grilled over a fire made with only mesquite wood! We had run out of the charcoal briquets, but had a stash of mesquite from my father's backyard (that we boxed up and checked as luggage on the airplane). :duck:
Hmm, sounds interesting. Invite me for a barbeque come summer?

[CurtC]

Read the name of the image.You might want to tell people how to view the image file name, since your post included only the photo itself.

[Melendwyr]

Why did people ever leave cast iron anyway?I slapped down a few hundred dollars Answered your own question, LotLH.

[Melendwyr]

You might want to tell people how to view the image file name, since your post included only the photo itself. Just quote his message without posting a response.

[BillHoyt]

I slapped down a few hundred dollars and went totally cast iron last year. Works like a champ. Why did people ever leave cast iron anyway?

LLH
Dude,

Cast Iron is the only way to go. We should probably also advise people to use gas, though.