Question about dogs for veterinarians or...

[popsy]

...anyone else. I've always had my pets spayed or neutered as soon as they were deemed old enough. I'm now reading on dog-boards that females shouldn't be spayed until they've had their first season and that males should be cocking a leg to pee before they're neutered. Reasoning appears to be that waiting to spay would cut down on incidence of spay-incontinence,and waiting to neuter helps the dog be less likely to be the victim of dog aggression by other males.

As far as the situation for males, I've had little experience so can't comment. I've had many spayed bitches, all spayed at about 6 months. One had trouble with bladder incontinence in her later years.

Is this the latest scientific thinking or is it "dog woo-woo"? The general source for these ideas came from someone that I did not 'distrust' until I read that he recommends Rescue Remedy for some problem dogs.

[Lisa Simpson]

I've heard the 'females shouldn't be spayed until they've had their first season" thing for cats, too. From about.com (http://cats.about.com/cs/spayneuter/a/earlyneuter.htm):

Although the concept of early spaying and neutering of both cats and dogs is not new, its use by veterinarians in the mid-20th century was limited because of a number of misconceptions:

* That for some reason, it was better to let a female cat give birth to one litter of kittens before spaying.
* That a female cat should not be neutered until after her first oestrus period.
* That growth metabolism might be stunted as a result.
* That the eventual urethral diameter might be constricted, particularly in male cats, causing eventual urinary problems.
* That female cats in particular, might later develop incontinence as a result.
* That certain behavioral problems might result.

A number of shelters decided to stop relying on the adoptive "parents" and to guarantee spay/neutering of kittens by having it performed prior to adoption, either with veterinary staff or by cooperating veterinarians. In the twenty or so years of research that followed, in both the U.S. and Canada, shelter operators and veterinarians were able to dismiss the previous misconceptions one by one. It was found that in cats altered as early as six to twelve weeks, compared to cats neutered at six to twelve months, there was the:

* Same metabolic rate
* Same type of growth
* Same urethral diameter at adulthood
* Same behavioral patterns.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

With respect to U incontinence it remains controversial. Unfortunately this is a reflection of the small size of our profession and the difficulty of organising large enough surveys for problems that only affect a minority of the population.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9888109&query_hl=9

My practice policy is to spay between first and second seasons, but charity clinics seem increasingly to recommend early spaying.

I think a downside of early spaying is that an infantile vulva can cause cotinuing problems and is hard to correct surgically. Although this is an infrequent problem it is much harder to manage than U incont. We also see recurrent urogenital infections in puppies that usually just disappear after their first season, but you're a bit stuck if you've already spayed them.

Spaying protects against mammary tumours if they are spayed before 2nd season (10% vs 25% in unspayed), but the incidence after prepubertal spaying is only 0.1%.

Accidental pregnancy in young bitches is also risky and is undesirable.

Combine all these factors and discuss it with a vet.

I'm open to new ideas and new data, but it is frustrating how little hard data we vets have on which to base common decisions compared with the medics.

For males I don't have any clear answers and I don't think any of the various guidelines have any real data to support them.

For cats we do everything at 5-6mths and regard it as a really bad thing to let females reach puberty- the uterus is horrible to handle at surgery and a lot of them get pregnant as soon as they get the chance because they are irresponsible sluts who never listen to safe sex advice.

The 5-6mth age-limit allows them to be a decent size for the procedure. They get less cold under GA and their cardiovascular systems are mature. Having said that I just pulled my own kitten's nuts off at 3 months. It was a fiddle, but he bounced back very quickly. but the male porcedure is very quick and we just give them a short-acting I/V GA. It's different for females, they get a gas-maintained GA and this is a less smooth and stable process than with older kittens.

I wouldn't mind neutering younger dogs if opinion heads that way because they are intrinsically easier under GA than similarly aged cats and spaying really little bitches is easier than older bitches. Their abdomens are easier to work in because they lack the strong muscle tone of an adult dog.

[popsy]

With respect to U incontinence it remains controversial. Unfortunately this is a reflection of the small size of our profession and the difficulty of organising large enough surveys for problems that only affect a minority of the population.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9888109&query_hl=9

My practice policy is to spay between first and second seasons, but charity clinics seem increasingly to recommend early spaying.

I think a downside of early spaying is that an infantile vulva can cause cotinuing problems and is hard to correct surgically. Although this is an infrequent problem it is much harder to manage than U incont. We also see recurrent urogenital infections in puppies that usually just disappear after their first season, but you're a bit stuck if you've already spayed them.

Spaying protects against mammary tumours if they are spayed before 2nd season (10% vs 25% in unspayed), but the incidence after prepubertal spaying is only 0.1%.

Accidental pregnancy in young bitches is also risky and is undesirable.

Combine all these factors and discuss it with a vet.

I'm open to new ideas and new data, but it is frustrating how little hard data we vets have on which to base common decisions compared with the medics.

For males I don't have any clear answers and I don't think any of the various guidelines have any real data to support them.

For cats we do everything at 5-6mths and regard it as a really bad thing to let females reach puberty- the uterus is horrible to handle at surgery and a lot of them get pregnant as soon as they get the chance because they are irresponsible sluts who never listen to safe sex advice.


We have one female feline we got as a 'discard' when she was a few months old. She came into her first season before we could get her spayed. I will never let any female cat I may have get that old without spaying again. :-( I have never had to listen to such volubility at such decibels inside my house ever before. Not just sluts, but NOISY sluts!

I'm open to new ideas and new data, but it is frustrating how little hard data we vets have on which to base common decisions compared with the medics.

Is that why homeopathy seems to have a stronger foot hold in animal health?

[John Bentley]

...anyone else. I've always had my pets spayed or neutered as soon as they were deemed old enough. I'm now reading on dog-boards that females shouldn't be spayed until they've had their first season and that males should be cocking a leg to pee before they're neutered. Reasoning appears to be that waiting to spay would cut down on incidence of spay-incontinence,and waiting to neuter helps the dog be less likely to be the victim of dog aggression by other males.

As far as the situation for males, I've had little experience so can't comment. I've had many spayed bitches, all spayed at about 6 months. One had trouble with bladder incontinence in her later years.

Is this the latest scientific thinking or is it "dog woo-woo"? The general source for these ideas came from someone that I did not 'distrust' until I read that he recommends Rescue Remedy for some problem dogs.

Lisa Simpson is correct. This is not exactly dog woo, but it is pure speculation, perpetuating a "medical myth" so to speak.

In females, no matter when you spay them, some are going to get inctontinent. No studies I know of to show that time of spaying correlates to increased incidence.

What is known is that spaying before the 1st heat cycle practically eliminates the chance of the dog developing mammary cancer later on. Statistically, less than 25% of dogs spayed before their first heat develop cancer.

I'm not a big proponent in early neutering of male dogs unless:
1. They roam
2. fight a lot
3. mark furniture

Neutering later in life is good because it practically eliminates a host of medical problems such as:
1. several types of prostatic disease, including cancer
2. At least 2 other types of cancer (testicular, and perinal adenocarcinoma)
3. At least 2 types of hernias (perineal and circumanal).
However, as long as the dog is neutered in late middle age, you can still have the benefits.
Early neutering makes the dog less likely to object to its place in the pecking order, not more, so that part is pure bunk.

[popsy]

Lisa Simpson is correct.

Neutering later in life is good because it practically eliminates a host of medical problems such as:
1. several types of prostatic disease, including cancer
2. At least 2 other types of cancer (testicular, and perinal adenocarcinoma)
3. At least 2 types of hernias (perineal and circumanal).
However, as long as the dog is neutered in late middle age, you can still have the benefits.
Early neutering makes the dog less likely to object to its place in the pecking order, not more, so that part is pure bunk.

I didn't make clear about the early neutering. My understanding of the argument is that if a dog is neutered too early he will not develop adult hormones and *other* dogs may tend to pick on him more. The aggression would come from other dogs, not the dog in question.

[Rolfe]

What is known is that spaying before the 1st heat cycle practically eliminates the chance of the dog developing mammary cancer later on. Statistically, less than 25% of dogs spayed before their first heat develop cancer.Something about that doesn't compute. Slip of the finger?

Department of "do as I say, not as I do". Rolfe was entire when I adopted him, when he was allegedly around three. (That didn't last long, I can tell you.) Later, when he started winning everything in sight at cat shows, George expressed the opinion that later neutering (and so a more adult physique) had a lot to do with it. He always left his own cats a couple of years or more before neutering. But at the same time, he cheerfully castrated all the staff's kittens at 4-5 months. Well, when I got Caramel I left him until the cattery owner started complaining of the smell in the litter tray - he was a year and 10 months at the time. He's also a nice-looking cat with a good-sized head. And I certainly don't think age of neutering affected temperament. Rolfe was a true gentleman all his life, while Caramel was always a bit handy with his claws, even at 3 months. I suppose the possible appearance of many-toed kittens around the environment might be a possible downside, but heck, it's the female's responsibility anyway! :D

I know, I'm a bad influence.

Rolfe.

[flume]

I'll admit that my 8 year old male dog is intact, and I hesitate to have him neutered. I think I have read on dog lists that the most recent information is that intact males have less (or maybe no greater) incidence of malignant prostate cancer than neutered males - or something like that - I am fuzzy on the details and I'm having trouble finding a source.

Well, maybe it's this article: I don't have access to the whole thing.
Canine prostate carcinoma: epidemiological evidence of an increased risk in
castrated dogs.
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12431819&query_hl=3)

[popsy]

Rolfe. What is Caramel? Other than a sweet, that is? ;-)

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Something about that doesn't compute. Slip of the finger?

Department of "do as I say, not as I do". Rolfe was entire when I adopted him, when he was allegedly around three. (That didn't last long, I can tell you.) Later, when he started winning everything in sight at cat shows, George expressed the opinion that later neutering (and so a more adult physique) had a lot to do with it. He always left his own cats a couple of years or more before neutering. But at the same time, he cheerfully castrated all the staff's kittens at 4-5 months. Well, when I got Caramel I left him until the cattery owner started complaining of the smell in the litter tray - he was a year and 10 months at the time. He's also a nice-looking cat with a good-sized head. And I certainly don't think age of neutering affected temperament. Rolfe was a true gentleman all his life, while Caramel was always a bit handy with his claws, even at 3 months. I suppose the possible appearance of many-toed kittens around the environment might be a possible downside, but heck, it's the female's responsibility anyway! :D

I know, I'm a bad influence.

Rolfe.

My 17yr old cat died in the summer (FIV+ve for many years, but that's another story) and the new kitte is his successor. Old cat was very long and rangy, which I ascribed to his early castration and it will be intersting to see how early-castrated kitten turns out. So far he is a short butter-ball.

My theory is that early castration may interfere with growth plate closure- puberty closes your growth plates, human castrati were suppsoedly very tall.

Conversely late-castrated cats definitely continue to look like tom-cats and I can see that as being preferable to some owners. but, I don't want a smelly cat, I don't want a fertile cat, I don't want a territorially aggressive cat, I don't think I want an FIV+ve cat- old cat seems not have have had his lifespan shortened but he did have a nasty ocular complication of FIV.

[Rolfe]

Rolfe was also FIV +ve for pretty much all his life, though that was a retrospective diagnosis, made when he was 16. He was also (at least) 17 when he died. The only sign he showed was a chronically bad mouth, kept under control by regular dentals and courses of metronidazole.

He was by no means long and rangy, but he was definitely the large economy size. 6.5kg at one point when he was a little on the tubby side, 6kg was his optimum weight. And (stuck record time) he was best non-pedigree in Britain in 1989.

Before Caramel was castrated, he didn't seem either smelly or territorially aggressive to me. Or else I'd have done him on the spot. (I'm a bad person, I didn't care if he was fertile!) It was only when he was confined to the cattery and had to use a litter tray that the smell became noticeable, and I thought, it's about time. I honestly didn't notice any change in him from before to after.

But the question was about dogs. I've read quite a lot of stuff suggestiong that the alleged adverse consequences of early spaying in bitches are myth, and it actually works very well. I have no personal experience. What do you think?

I wouldn't neuter a male dog except for a specific reason.

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

But the question was about dogs. I've read quite a lot of stuff suggestiong that the alleged adverse consequences of early spaying in bitches are myth, and it actually works very well. I have no personal experience. What do you think?

I'd like to see one of those charity clinics report several hundred sequential cases. Even without a control group, there's enough data out there that if they got either a tiny or a huge incidence of U incont it would be interesting. The trouble is that a middling result would be uninterpretable in the absence of a comparator and other studies suggest a middling result is the most likely.

I'm not sure I fancy recommending spaying just after 2nd vacc. The problems I alluded to earlier may not be common but they'd be a bugger to sort out if they turn up after you've spayed a little puppy.

(p.s. how come "bugger" isn't regarded as a warnable rude word around here?)

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Rolfe was also FIV +ve for pretty much all his life, though that was a retrospective diagnosis, made when he was 16. He was also (at least) 17 when he died. The only sign he showed was a chronically bad mouth, kept under control by regular dentals and courses of metronidazole.

Sam, my cat, had it for at least 5 years. His mouth was perfect apart from slight tartar, but he had intermediate uveitis, which David Williams tells me is unique to cats with FIV.

[Rolfe]

Rolfe had beautiful eyes, and there's a centrefold in Cat World to prove it....

I thought the GDBA had some good data on early spays?

Rolfe.

[Lisa Simpson]

(p.s. how come "bugger" isn't regarded as a warnable rude word around here?)

Because our swear words here are America-centric.

[John Bentley]

Something about that doesn't compute. Slip of the finger?

Rolfe.


No, just posted what I though I knew without checking the facts first. Post in haste, regret at leisure.

BSM, where did you get your stats? I pulled mine out of my education by the head surgeon at Auburn University. I don't know if he was just wrong, or if the stats I have are just old.

[Rolfe]

What is known is that spaying before the 1st heat cycle practically eliminates the chance of the dog developing mammary cancer later on. Statistically, less than 25% of dogs spayed before their first heat develop cancer.I just thought that "practicially eliminates mammary cancer" and "less than 25% get cancer" didn't entirely gel.

Rolfe.

[John Bentley]

I didn't make clear about the early neutering. My understanding of the argument is that if a dog is neutered too early he will not develop adult hormones and *other* dogs may tend to pick on him more. The aggression would come from other dogs, not the dog in question.

Again, I have no stats, but just knowing dog pack dynamics would lead me to believe that early neutering would simply keep that dog near the bottom of the pecking order. In that sense, any other dog would be allowed to treat him like dirt, I suppose.

Pure speculation, but I wonder if eliminting the post-pubertal male smell through early castration would prolong the dog's status as "puppy" to other dogs, and thus keep it from being considered threatening?

Anyway, I still don't recommend early neutering in male dogs unless you have the problems I already listed.

Flume,
Very interesting abstract. I would love to see those results repeated in another study. All the articles I read as a surgery resident stated that the incidence of prostatic cancer in un-neutered males was far higher than neutered males. Can't remember any distinction in malignancy rates, but I do remember that malignancy was pretty high in dogs. I suspect that the stats I learned about that may be skewed, as the only dogs that were biopsied were the ones having problems. I can't remember any studies based on random prostatic samples.

Of course, cats don't have prostates, just for the record.

[John Bentley]

I just thought that "practicially eliminates mammary cancer" and "less than 25% get cancer" didn't entirely gel.

Rolfe.

Yeah, that does sound pretty high, but those were the numbers I was given. The incidence of mammary cancer (at least over here) is very high in dogs. We used to call it the 50/50 disease when I was a resident. In unspayed females, 50% would get mammary cancer. 50% of those would be malignant. 50% of those would spread to the lungs before the owners decided to get anything done. Maybe it's just a Southeastern America thing. Maybe my surgery professor was full of hot air. Maybe I took whatever he fed me without adding any salt.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

John

My alternative interpretation would be to say that prostatic Ca that manages to develop in the absence of androgen support would, by definition, be nastier disease because the cells are proliferating without one of their major controls on development. So I would suspect that a referral centre receiving nastier cases would be likely to have castrates over-represented in that cohort.

The same is true of perianal masses in the castrate and the bitch- more uncommon than in entire males but nasty when it occurs.

To answer the question you would need a better study of the true incidences in the general population not a referral cohort already showing bad disease before you could say that the casrtates actually get more Ca per 100,000 dogs.

[John Bentley]

John

My alternative interpretation would be to say that prostatic Ca that manages to develop in the absence of androgen support would, by definition, be nastier disease because the cells are proliferating without one of their major controls on development. So I would suspect that a referral centre receiving nastier cases would be likely to have castrates over-represented in that cohort.

The same is true of perianal masses in the castrate and the bitch- more uncommon than in entire males but nasty when it occurs.

To answer the question you would need a better study of the true incidences in the general population not a referral cohort already showing bad disease before you could say that the casrtates actually get more Ca per 100,000 dogs.

Yes, I have that same interpretation. As I remember it, prostatic cancer was much more common in the un-neutered male, but when it did occur in the neutered male, it was much more likely to be malignant. However, at our referral center at Auburn University, we saw many more un-neutered males than otherwise. Most of the prostatic biopsies I performed in those dogs showed cancer, but I never worked up any statistics myself.

Thanks for prodding my recalcitrant engrams, they are starting to calcify I think.

[Debaroo]

A compilation of articles on early S/N can be found here:

http://www.spayusa.org/main_directory/04-sterilization_methods/sn_articles/


D

[Debaroo]

Yes, I have that same interpretation. As I remember it, prostatic cancer was much more common in the un-neutered male, but when it did occur in the neutered male, it was much more likely to be malignant. However, at our referral center at Auburn University, we saw many more un-neutered males than otherwise. Most of the prostatic biopsies I performed in those dogs showed cancer, but I never worked up any statistics myself.

Thanks for prodding my recalcitrant engrams, they are starting to calcify I think.

John:

One of my pups was early S/N at 12 weeks (the owner being a vet student). He developed malignant prostatic cancer and died at 4 years of age. He also had UAP of one elbow - don't know if that is significant.

Deb

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

John:

One of my pups was early S/N at 12 weeks (the owner being a vet student). He developed malignant prostatic cancer and died at 4 years of age. He also had UAP of one elbow - don't know if that is significant.

Deb

As we have been discussing, what would be required is a controlled set of observations not individual cases. So, it is a sad story but no conclusion can be drawn from it.

[John Bentley]

John:

One of my pups was early S/N at 12 weeks (the owner being a vet student). He developed malignant prostatic cancer and died at 4 years of age. He also had UAP of one elbow - don't know if that is significant.

Deb

The UAP would not be correlated with the prostatic cancer, if that's what you are asking. I doubt seriously that the early neuter induced prostatic disease. As BSM says, you can't draw any conclusions from 1 case.

Of the abstracts you provided links for (thanks for that), the best one appears to have been done recently (2004). Decent numbers and long term follow up. However, without the entire study, it is kind of hard to interpret. No mention of specific problems except urinary incontinence and cystitis in females. I'll have to dig out a copy of JAVMA and read it. See what diseases were or weren't correlated and at what age.

I've been disappointed in JAVMA the last few years, as it has turned into a way for residents to meet their publishing requirements without much real content. It has even allowed homeopathy articles to slip in every now and then. I stopped reading it consistently because of these problems, and I tend to look at some of the articles closely if they go against what I think I know already.

[Debaroo]

The UAP would not be correlated with the prostatic cancer, if that's what you are asking. I doubt seriously that the early neuter induced prostatic disease. As BSM says, you can't draw any conclusions from 1 case.

Of the abstracts you provided links for (thanks for that), the best one appears to have been done recently (2004). Decent numbers and long term follow up. However, without the entire study, it is kind of hard to interpret. No mention of specific problems except urinary incontinence and cystitis in females. I'll have to dig out a copy of JAVMA and read it. See what diseases were or weren't correlated and at what age.

I've been disappointed in JAVMA the last few years, as it has turned into a way for residents to meet their publishing requirements without much real content. It has even allowed homeopathy articles to slip in every now and then. I stopped reading it consistently because of these problems, and I tend to look at some of the articles closely if they go against what I think I know already.


I realize one cannot draw conclusions based on one dog - I was just giving an example of an early neutered dog that did develop malignant prostatic cancer. As for the UAP - I was just wondering if delay of closure of growth plates has any correlation to deformities of the elbow. Also, one of the studies on early S/N with relationship to Rotties demonstrated an increase in osteosarcoma...(presently, I cannot find the link).

Deb

[Ohmer]

For cats we do everything at 5-6mths and regard it as a really bad thing to let females reach puberty- the uterus is horrible to handle at surgery and a lot of them get pregnant as soon as they get the chance because they are irresponsible sluts who never listen to safe sex advice.


Can't resist...

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=cat-sex

[John Bentley]

I realize one cannot draw conclusions based on one dog - I was just giving an example of an early neutered dog that did develop malignant prostatic cancer. As for the UAP - I was just wondering if delay of closure of growth plates has any correlation to deformities of the elbow. Also, one of the studies on early S/N with relationship to Rotties demonstrated an increase in osteosarcoma...(presently, I cannot find the link).

Deb

Sorry, didn't mean to patronize. Comes from having lots of kids and not enough adult conversation.

Don't know if there is any correlation between UAP and delayed closure. Wouldn't be surprised if that were true, but it might be kind of hard to pin down. Wow, all kinds of research opportunities here. The problem, at least in veterinary medicine, is that most of the research I see is very short term stuff because of the need to "publish or perish", or is very superficial drek because it is simply done to meet the requirements for a residency.

My research project for my master's took 2 years to complete, and I was considered "daring" because it was such a "long term" project.

[John Bentley]

Can't resist...

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=cat-sex


That is truly sicko. Peta never disappoints for weirdness.