Couple sues operators of evolution site

[Temporal Renegade]

Just when you thought you'd heard it all....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051126/ap_on_sc/evolution_lawsuit

[Dancing David]

Not suprising, but there are many lawsuits without merit, hey where is the republican gang of thugs calling for tort reform?

[Pyrrho]

Lovely. We can expect a lot more barratry as this continues. I won't be surprised when someone starts a website posting names, addresses, and phone numbers of "evolutionists".

[Iacchus]

Just when you thought you'd heard it all....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051126/ap_on_sc/evolution_lawsuitOh well. What's good for the goose ...

[Mercutio]

Oh well. What's good for the goose ...
Could you explain your twisted logic here? I know I am asking for a genuine first here, but I'd love to see it.

Or did you just like the sound the words make?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Well Pyrrho, no addresses, but:

http://www.cornellevolutionproject.org/evolutionists.html

~~ Paul

[Iacchus]

Could you explain your twisted logic here? I know I am asking for a genuine first here, but I'd love to see it.

Or did you just like the sound the words make?Do I think someone should be sued over this? No. Either way, however, depending on whether it's God or, evilution, it's a bunch of petty nonsense. ;)

[Kopji]

The Berkley site is cool, they probably just want to shut it up.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

[Iacchus]

The Berkley site is cool, they probably just want to shut it up.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/I don't know, how cool is it, cool enough to promote atheism perhaps? If so, then it has definite religious slant.

[Mercutio]

I don't know, how cool is it, cool enough to promote atheism perhaps? If so, then it has definite religious slant.
Promote atheism? Did you even look at the site?

[Iacchus]

Promote atheism? Did you even look at the site?No. And I was just merely posing the question. If the site is not used as a means to promote any type of ideology, then they should have nothing to worry about.

[Iacchus]

No. And I was just merely posing the question. If the site is not used as a means to promote any type of ideology, then they should have nothing to worry about.Oh, and by the way, if someone fesses up and says something is "cool," that's an emotional reaction, and has nothing to do with rationalism. Isn't that the same category that most of "you" folks apply to religion?

[Diamond]

Oh, and by the way, if someone fesses up and says something is "cool," that's an emotional reaction, and has nothing to do with rationalism. Isn't that the same category that most of "you" folks apply to religion?

You mean that happiness is not a rational response or that rationalists should never be happy?

[Mercutio]

You mean that happiness is not a rational response or that rationalists should never be happy?
I think he means "I don't want to justify my earlier statement, so I'll say something to start the discussion in a different direction."

[Dr Adequate]

In the lawsuit filed last month, the Caldwells contend the site is an effort "to modify the beliefs of public school science students so they will be more willing to accept evolutionary theory as true." And, y'know, Evilution Is A Religion.

BWAHAHAHA.

This is going to be such fun. Can we call it the California Dingbats Trial?

* mental note: buy popcorn *

I love the way they deny being ID proponents. No, you're not, my loves, but then nor is anyone else. You're freakin' Creationists, aren't you?

[RandFan]

Odd don't you think for the National Science Foundation (http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=National+Science+Foundation) to support a theory that is investigated and studied using the scientific method. Maybe the point should be whether or not the National Science Foundation (http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=National+Science+Foundation) is a religious organization and therefore it should not receive public funds. Hmmm.....

[Iacchus]

I think he means "I don't want to justify my earlier statement, so I'll say something to start the discussion in a different direction."Actually that was the first thing that crossed my mind, that led me to say the other. It had everything to do with being "cool," you see. ;)

[Mercutio]

Actually that was the first thing that crossed my mind, that led me to say the other. It had everything to do with being "cool," you see. ;)
Well, then, let's give you another chance:
Oh well. What's good for the goose ...
Could you explain your logic here?

[Iacchus]

You mean that happiness is not a rational response or that rationalists should never be happy?So long as they don't do it in public places ... I guess. :D

[ceo_esq]

Not suprising, but there are many lawsuits without merit, hey where is the republican gang of thugs calling for tort reform?

This lawsuit may well be without merit, but it doesn't appear to be a conventional tort case. If Congress or state legislatures passed reforms limiting the ability of courts to redress alleged constitutional grievances, the reforms themselves would probably be struck down.

[Iacchus]

Well, then, let's give you another chance:

Could you explain your logic here?Yes, I agree, it was a bit of a flip-flop, but I also said it was a bunch of petty nonsense either way. In which case this "cool" thingee was all that was necessary to demonstrate that. I couldn't resist in other words.

[Mercutio]

Yes, I agree, it was a bit of a flip-flop, but I also said it was a bunch of petty nonsense either way. In which case this "cool" thingee was all that was necessary to demonstrate that. I couldn't resist in other words.
You equate this with establishment of religion? And support it with an evaluation of a website you did not even look at?

I think you should have resisted.

[Iacchus]

You equate this with establishment of religion? And support it with an evaluation of a website you did not even look at?

I think you should have resisted.Or, maybe he shouldn't be "tagging" his emotional baggage to the whole thing?

[Ryan O'Dine]

I just had a psychic flash, saw the whole thing:

Picture a dank church basement, moldy Bibles gathering dust in a corner, the sound of dripping water...

Zealot #1: They got us good in Dover, boy. We were fine till we had to face that darned impartial judge. But we’ll get ‘em. We’ll get ‘em good for making us look like a bunch of ignorant buffoons.

Zealot #2: What to do... what to do...

Zealot #1: Hey -- let’s take a page from their own playbook. Sue evolution for being religious.

Zealot #2: You can’t just sue evolution.

Zealot #1: Then we’ll go on the internet, find some website. There’s got to be something --

Zealot #2: Sure, that’s the thing! ‘These people are teaching evolution -- separation of church and state! Illegal! It goes against... er, which amendment was that?

Zealot #1: Heck if I know. But, boy, I’m telling you -- we’ll show them a thing or two what it means to be an idiot.

Zealot #2: Praise Google! I mean Jesus!

[Mojo]

I don't know, how cool is it, cool enough to promote atheism perhaps? If so, then it has definite religious slant.Well, if you think asking awkward questions like What is the evidence for evolution? (http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_id=46) is promoting atheism; I know these religious types aren't big on evidence...

[PatKelley]

Oh well. What's good for the goose ...
...is good for the fruit nut cluster?
...is handled with mint jelly?
...is garbled beyond recognition?

I really can't see where you were going with this... comparing apples and left handed Japanese-baseball-league catchers.

[PatKelley]

Oh, and by the way, if someone fesses up and says something is "cool," that's an emotional reaction, and has nothing to do with rationalism. Isn't that the same category that most of "you" folks apply to religion?
Oh. Discrimination now! It is "us" and "you!" FUN FUN FUN! Such an aligned absolute position to take, Iachhus. So not like you.

I declare the Hate Fest to be officially.... ON! I'm first on the Discriminator!

[Ryokan]

I declare the Hate Fest to be officially.... ON! I'm first on the Discriminator!

No, you're not. Idiot.

[Zep]

Bugger off the pair of you. Morans...

[Mercutio]

Come on people. Don't make it personal.





Not when it is so easy to cite examples...

[Dr Adequate]

The website is indeed cool. I would go further. It is chilled to the max, well wicked, bodacious, most worthy, swinging, groovy, far out, and bad to the bone.

And perhaps I should explain, for the benefit of granddaddy squares like Iacchus, who just don't "get it", and aren't "with the groove", that when we funky hipsters describe a science website as "cool", this, in our laid-back beatnik argot, means that we think that it communicates science clearly and effectively; and not that it has a merely visceral effect on us such as we obtain by smoking marijuana and "bopping" to that exciting new "rock'n'roll" sound.

[Iacchus]

Sex drugs and rock-and-roll huh? ;) Sounds very much like a "cult thing" to me.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

One of the things I really like about this forum is that you can read contributions from from people at both ends of the intellectual scale all in one place.

[Mercutio]

The website is indeed cool. I would go further. It is chilled to the max, well wicked, bodacious, most worthy, swinging, groovy, far out, and bad to the bone.

And perhaps I should explain, for the benefit of granddaddy squares like Iacchus, who just don't "get it", and aren't "with the groove", that when we funky hipsters describe a science website as "cool", this, in our laid-back beatnik argot, means that we think that it communicates science clearly and effectively; and not that it has a merely visceral effect on us such as we obtain by smoking marijuana and "bopping" to that exciting new "rock'n'roll" sound.
Sorry, Dr. A. You did not make it quite clear enough.
Sex drugs and rock-and-roll huh? ;) Sounds very much like a "cult thing" to me.
Iacchus, please go to a local school and ask if you could borrow a high-powered telescope. Point it directly skyward, and if you keep your eyes open and get really lucky, you might see Dr. A's point sailing over your head.

[Kopji]

I don't know, how cool is it, cool enough to promote atheism perhaps? If so, then it has definite religious slant.
I actually read through much of the site. The approach seems to take a unique tack of showing how various people use evolutionary ideas and why the theory matters. It seems to be consistently called a theory throughout.

This is probably a conscious nod to the religious world because gravity is a theory too yet we do not usually bother to talk about it - we just say "gravity" as if it was not a theory but established fact.

[Filip Sandor]

Just when you thought you'd heard it all....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051126/ap_on_sc/evolution_lawsuit

Evolution theory does explain a lot of stuff, like what the effects of random mutation can be in an organism or why animals that are physically well adapted to the environment are more successful at passing on their genes than animals that are not well adapted, but I does it actually claim to explain the origin of life?

[Iacchus]

Sorry, Dr. A. You did not make it quite clear enough.

Iacchus, please go to a local school and ask if you could borrow a high-powered telescope. Point it directly skyward, and if you keep your eyes open and get really lucky, you might see Dr. A's point sailing over your head.Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds? :D

[Tricky]

Evolution theory does explain a lot of stuff, like what the effects of random mutation can be in an organism or why animals that are physically well adapted to the environment are more successful at passing on their genes than animals that are not well adapted, but does it actually claim to explain the origin of life?
It depends on how you use the word "evolution". Since Darwin, it has come to mean biologic evolution more often than not. That is what his theory of evolution deals with. In the more general sense, evolution can mean gradual change, usually implying increasing complexity. The general principle for both is the same: That which is stable continues. In the case of solar systems, it means, among other things, that stars and planets settle into stable patterns, forming complex nebulae, galaxies and solar systems. In the case of biology, it means that organisms that are good at reproducing themselves continue to exist.

The actual "origin of life" is called abiogenesis, and for most scientists, it represents a crossover between stable compounds which may form templates for identical compounds, and a structure that facilitates this "templating", i.e. a cell. This crossover probably took many many eons, so it is not really useful to describe it as a "point" where life began, but rather a period of time when it would be difficult to distinguish between stable, self-reproducing molecules and organisms. (Some would argue that viruses are still in this category).

Because of their tiny size and the lack of hard parts, it is difficult, verging on impossible to track these changes. They are inferred from laboratory experiments with stable, self reproducing molecules and from evidence about the environment of the pre-life Earth. However, this was in no way part of Darwin's theory, so most people don't include it as part of Evolution (with a capital E).

So you can make a case that Evolution is not about the beginning of life, or that evolution includes the beginning of life.

[Melendwyr]

So you can make a case that Evolution is not about the beginning of life, or that evolution includes the beginning of life. Precisely true. There's very little evidence available for how life began on this planet, so biology doesn't concern itself with that, only with the question of how the forms of life that exist right now came to be. There's plenty of evidence of that, and plenty of evidence supporting biology's explanation of that.

The explanation itself, if applied to other things, can potentially account for the emergence of life. But that's an implication that we can't support at the moment.

[Belz...]

Do I think someone should be sued over this? No. Either way, however, depending on whether it's God or, evilution, it's a bunch of petty nonsense. ;)

...or a dream.

[Meadmaker]

Not suprising, but there are many lawsuits without merit, hey where is the republican gang of thugs calling for tort reform?

Here.

This lawsuit is a good example of one that ought to be able to be dismissed quickly, without the need for attorney fees.

(I don't usually vote Republican, but when I do, it's usually on the state and local level, and tort reform is one of the big issues that makes me stray toward the GOP.)

[Beerina]

n the lawsuit filed last month, the Caldwells contend the site is an effort "to modify the beliefs of public school science students so they will be more willing to accept evolutionary theory as true."

Whew! I thought they might be trying to rip it down via a clever new backdoor that a government site couldn't talk about how silly religion was in this respect. Nah, it's just the same old crap.


The plaintiffs are not proponents of "intelligent design" — a theory that living organisms are so complex they must have been created by a higher intelligence — but they object to the teaching of evolution as scientific fact, Jeanne Caldwell said.

I do believe the SC has already ruled that opposition to evolution in this respect is a religious position, having fallen well under any threshold of scientific validity. Sure, you can yak about it, but to forbit its teaching because "it's just a theory" is a religious position, and hence cannot be a guiding principle for course design.

[Iacchus]

...or a dream.It all comes from the same place.

[Tricky]

It all comes from the same place.
Indeed, God and dreams do come from the same place: your imagination.

[Iacchus]

Indeed, God and dreams do come from the same place: your imagination.Or, another way to put it, would be through our ability to perceive. Which, in fact is really all we've got, as entities that is. ;)

[Iacchus]

Or, would that be id-entities? ... Monsters from the id I say! :D

[Tricky]

Or, another way to put it, would be through our ability to perceive. Which, in fact is really all we've got, as entities that is. ;)
I guess you could call that "another way to put it" because it certainly bears no relationship to what I said.

[Iacchus]

I guess you could call that "another way to put it" because it certainly bears no relationship to what I said.So, what exactly do you perceive yourself as through your imagination? Monsters from the id I say! :D

[cyborg]

Monsters from the id I say!

You just keep saying it often enough and you'll resurrect all the faries I've killed over the years.

[Iacchus]

You just keep saying it often enough and you'll resurrect all the faries I've killed over the years.Even the IPU's and the FSM's? :D

[cyborg]

Even the IPU's and the FSM's?

Eh?

[Iacchus]

Eh?Eh? You've never heard of Invisible Pink Unicorns or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

[Zep]

Umm, Iacchus, all your hippie trippy nonsense died in the late 60's, man...

[cyborg]

Eh? You've never heard of Invisible Pink Unicorns or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

I've heard of them but I cannot see the convoluted connection you're trying to make.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

Umm, Iacchus, all your hippie trippy nonsense died in the late 60's, man...

Wow man, is it not still the 60's?

Where the hell did the years go?

[Temporal Renegade]

Sex drugs and rock-and-roll huh? ;) Sounds very much like a "cult thing" to me.

....You say that like it's a bad thing!:D

[Panelman]

I like AnotherSillyAlias's contribution,says it all. Is kilik a real person????

[Iacchus]

....You say that like it's a bad thing!:DI prefer wine, women and song myself. ;)

[Filip Sandor]

It depends on how you use the word "evolution". Since Darwin, it has come to mean biologic evolution more often than not. That is what his theory of evolution deals with. In the more general sense, evolution can mean gradual change, usually implying increasing complexity. The general principle for both is the same: That which is stable continues. In the case of solar systems, it means, among other things, that stars and planets settle into stable patterns, forming complex nebulae, galaxies and solar systems. In the case of biology, it means that organisms that are good at reproducing themselves continue to exist.

The actual "origin of life" is called abiogenesis, and for most scientists, it represents a crossover between stable compounds which may form templates for identical compounds, and a structure that facilitates this "templating", i.e. a cell. This crossover probably took many many eons, so it is not really useful to describe it as a "point" where life began, but rather a period of time when it would be difficult to distinguish between stable, self-reproducing molecules and organisms. (Some would argue that viruses are still in this category).

Because of their tiny size and the lack of hard parts, it is difficult, verging on impossible to track these changes. They are inferred from laboratory experiments with stable, self reproducing molecules and from evidence about the environment of the pre-life Earth. However, this was in no way part of Darwin's theory, so most people don't include it as part of Evolution (with a capital E).

So you can make a case that Evolution is not about the beginning of life, or that evolution includes the beginning of life.

That's all I wanted to know actually, whether Darwinian Evolution encompasses "the beginning," I didn't think it does. Thanks for the additional information too!

[Mojo]

Umm, Iacchus, all your hippie trippy nonsense died in the late 60's, man...Surely "monsters from the id" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049223/) are more 1950s?

[Tricky]

Surely "monsters from the id" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049223/) are more 1950s?
I think Iacchus is partly right about his "monsters from the id". I say partially, because he leaves off the last three letters from the source of monsters, "iot".

[Iacchus]

I think Iacchus is partly right about his "monsters from the id". I say partially, because he leaves off the last three letters from the source of monsters, "iot".I am just a voice, from "outer-limbo." And you're a riot man ... :D

[Taffer]

Sorry, Dr. A. You did not make it quite clear enough.

Iacchus, please go to a local school and ask if you could borrow a high-powered telescope. Point it directly skyward, and if you keep your eyes open and get really lucky, you might see Dr. A's point sailing over your head.

:dl:

Brilliant! :D

[AnotherSillyAlias]

I like AnotherSillyAlias's contribution,says it all. Is kilik a real person????

Well, I guess you need to define "real" but yes, kilik is a real person. A major irritant to some, a source of much amusement to others.