The new, new, new Startegy for Victory in Iraq.

[headscratcher4]

So, let’s get this straight…

The same people who relied on bad intelligence (if not deliberately manipulated intelligence) about Iraq, predicted a “cake-walk,” failed to build a needed international consensus about Iraq and how it should be handled, who failed to put enough troops into the country to establish control, who ignored analysts warnings that Iraq would become a focus for anti-American Islamic fundamentalists terrorists, who disbanded the Iraqi Army, who have failed to supply the troops on the ground with the armor they’ve repeatedly requested…now have a “Strategy for Victory.”

Wow…that’s a comfort…I feel much better now.

[Ed]

You are moving far too fast...

So, let’s get this straight…

The same people who relied on bad intelligence (if not deliberately manipulated intelligence) about Iraq,

And then, two years later where this absolute failure (to be charitable) was made abundently clear, gave the Medal of Freedom...
The Presidential Medal of Freedom is America's highest civilian award and, among all American honors, it ranks second to only the Congressional Medal of Honor the nation's highest military award. This great honor is reserved for individuals the President deems to have made especially meritorious contributions to the security or national interests of the United States, to world peace, or to cultural or other significant public or private endeavors. Though it may be awarded for singular acts of momentous import, it is generally conferred only for a lifetime of service or at the conclusion of a distinguished career.

The award is "given only after careful thought, always sparingly so as not to debase its currency." In the thirty years from the award's creation by President Kennedy through the close of the Bush administration, three hundred recipients were accorded this high honor. Of these three hundred recipients, only Ellsworth Bunker was twice awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Since then, Colin Powell (who received the award from President Bush) was awarded a second Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Clinton
http://www.medaloffreedom.com/HistoryandInformationofMedal.htm

to the incompetant bastard on whose watch the disaster happened...

Continue ...

predicted a “cake-walk,” failed to build a needed international consensus about Iraq and how it should be handled, who failed to put enough troops into the country to establish control, who ignored analysts warnings that Iraq would become a focus for anti-American Islamic fundamentalists terrorists,

These things, while admirable to not rise to the level of recognition by an appreciative American People. This,

who disbanded the Iraqi Army,
however, does...
http://www.medaloffreedom.com/GeorgeWBush_LPaulBremer.jpg

Yes indeedy, certainly shows us what characteristics are of value here in the good 'ol USA. Ineptitude, stupidity and cravenness.

OK....with that background we can proceed with the thread.




Wow…that’s a comfort…I feel much better now.

Golly, so do I.

[headscratcher4]

I suppose it is too late to pass out more medals of freedom and call it a good day's work?

[Ed]

I suppose it is too late to pass out more medals of freedom and call it a good day's work?

There are many American Heros (tm).....

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/weather/july-dec05/katrina/images/fema-bush-brown.jpg

who are in the wings, awaiting recognition or administration contracts.

Any more silly questions?

[Mephisto]

So, let’s get this straight…

The same people who relied on bad intelligence (if not deliberately manipulated intelligence) about Iraq, predicted a “cake-walk,” failed to build a needed international consensus about Iraq and how it should be handled, who failed to put enough troops into the country to establish control, who ignored analysts warnings that Iraq would become a focus for anti-American Islamic fundamentalists terrorists, who disbanded the Iraqi Army, who have failed to supply the troops on the ground with the armor they’ve repeatedly requested…now have a “Strategy for Victory.”

HEY! "New-Improved" works with laundry detergent, why won't it work with the "stay the course" hard-sell about Iraq? It shouldn't be all that hard to sell to the American people. After all, who doesn't want whiter whites and brighter colors?

[Ed]

HEY! "New-Improved" works with laundry detergent, why won't it work with the "stay the course" hard-sell about Iraq? It shouldn't be all that hard to sell to the American people. After all, who doesn't want whiter whites and brighter colors?

Certainly the turbin wearing public.

[Mephisto]

Certainly the turbin wearing public.

Oh yeah, I forgot about them.

[Ed]

Oh yeah, I forgot about them.

That's what they count on. YOU, sir, are decreasing the moral of our troops.

[punchdrunk]

That's what they count on. YOU, sir, are decreasing the moral of our troops.

We can put this notion to bed, thanks to the Vice President (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/11/20051121-2.html):

One might also argue that untruthful charges against the Commander-in-Chief have an insidious effect on the war effort itself. I'm unwilling to say that, only because I know the character of the United States Armed Forces -- men and women who are fighting the war on terror in Iraq, Afghanistan, and many other fronts.

So continue hating America you liberal commies, you have Dick's assurance.

[Ed]

We can put this notion to bed, thanks to the Vice President (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/11/20051121-2.html):



So continue hating America you liberal commies, you have Dick's assurance.

the assurance of a Dick.

Comforting......

[headscratcher4]

"One might also argue that untruthful charges against the Commander-in-Chief have an insidious effect on the war effort itself. I'm unwilling to say that, only because I know the character of the United States Armed Forces -- men and women who are fighting the war on terror in Iraq, Afghanistan, and many other fronts."

One might argue that constantly changing and mistaken reasons for going to war and sustaining the fight might have an insidious effect on the troops...but clearly, our men and women in-arms are very concerned by what names the President and his Dick are called...indeed, might I be so bold as to ascribe all US failures to live up to the President's expectations in Iraq to the hurt that our troops have felt over the treatment of the president by the Media, liberals, people who know the facts, etc.?

[zenith-nadir]

So, let’s get this straight…

The same people who relied on bad intelligence...That one got me. I admit I was fooled as I sat watching Powell's presentation at the U.N.. I thought no way he could be saying these things with the degree of certainty that he did to a world-wide audience and be lying. But, alas, in January 2005, the US gave up searching for Iraq WMD. Boy is my face red.

I read an article somewhere where they compared this to the "missle gap" which was another case of intelligence everyone thought was real and immediate but that it turned out to be completely false.

[Ed]

That one got me. I admit I was fooled as I sat watching Powell's presentation at the U.N.. I thought no way he could be saying these things with the degree of certainty that he did to a world-wide audience and be lying. But, alas, in January 2005, the US gave up searching for Iraq WMD. Boy is my face red.

I read an article somewhere where they compared this to the "missle gap" which was another case of intelligence everyone thought was real and immediate but that it turned out to be completely false.

Me too. That and Bushes serious talk to the nation right before hostilities.

Then there is this

The National Security Agency has kept secret since 2001 a finding by an agency historian that during the Tonkin Gulf episode, which helped precipitate the Vietnam War, N.S.A. officers deliberately distorted critical intelligence to cover up their mistakes, two people familiar with the historian's work say. The historian's conclusion...
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00B15FB345B0C728FDDA90994DD4044 82

The release of this was opposed my GW & Co.

Second time I have been fooled. You just cannot trust them.

n.b. This evening, if Bush appeals to "soldiers not dieing in vain" or words to that effect you know he ain't got nothing.

[Bikewer]

I notice from Bush's first statements that The Terrorists are now warring against "humanity". Seems kind of counter-productive, unless they're aliens....

[Ziggurat]

I notice from Bush's first statements that The Terrorists are now warring against "humanity". Seems kind of counter-productive, unless they're aliens....

Not in the "Oh, the humanity!" sense of the word.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/humanity
hu·man·i·ty
1 : the quality or state of being humane
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/humane
hu·mane
1 : marked by compassion, sympathy, or consideration for humans or animals

[headscratcher4]

Maybe he knows -- 'cause I think his mother was accused of being one -- that the terrorists are those lizard-people -- you know, the aliein cross-breeds that control the British monarchy? That would explain their war on humanity.

[headscratcher4]

Not in the "Oh, the humanity!" sense of the word.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/humanity
hu·man·i·ty
1 : the quality or state of being humane
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/humane
hu·mane
1 : marked by compassion, sympathy, or consideration for humans or animals

Now -- getting away for a moment about whether the Iraq war was really about terrorism or whether it will solve terrorism -- the terrorist's islamo-facists goals are indeed reprehensible...but I suspect if you asked them, the reasons they are doing it is for "humanity" and that they would use the definition you cite to prove their case...after all, if you are a religious fanatic -- say a born again christian -- don't you always assume that getting the world and individuals "right" with god is the most humane sort of act?

For example, fundie christians don't "hate" gays, they love them, they hate the sin. How is it different for our islamo-facist friends? They would, I am sure, argue that by getting right with Allah, the US can avoid Allah's wrath as interpreted and acted upon by themselves...

My point here is not to defend terrorists, but rather to say it seems to me unlikely that we will ever defeat them if we don't understand their motivations and what they are after.

[Ed]

Well, I will take a risk here and bring up Adolph. I think that we knew pretty much what he was after. Jiminy, Churchill knew from the outset. It is not clear that there was much of a choice then other than capitulation or war.

[CapelDodger]

So, let’s get this straight…

The same people who relied on bad intelligence (if not deliberately manipulated intelligence) about Iraq, predicted a “cake-walk,” failed to build a needed international consensus about Iraq and how it should be handled, who failed to put enough troops into the country to establish control, who ignored analysts warnings that Iraq would become a focus for anti-American Islamic fundamentalists terrorists, who disbanded the Iraqi Army, who have failed to supply the troops on the ground with the armor they’ve repeatedly requested…now have a “Strategy for Victory.”

Wow…that’s a comfort…I feel much better now.

I have a Strategy for Victory. It's a very high-level Strategy, and goes like this : Declare victory, and withdraw. How long will events in Iraq feature on regular US news afterwards? Went, conquered, did your best for the ungrateful SOB's, waddya gonna do?

Reform social security, that's what. Proper 'Murrican issues.

[Ed]

I have a Strategy for Victory. It's a very high-level Strategy, and goes like this : Declare victory, and withdraw. How long will events in Iraq feature on regular US news afterwards? Went, conquered, did your best for the ungrateful SOB's, waddya gonna do?

Reform social security, that's what. Proper 'Murrican issues.

Also, leave nuttsey missionaries there. In fact, send more missionaries. Slip weapons in their luggage for humourous effect.

[Diamond]

I watched Donald Rumsfeld on this interesting video (http://www.canofun.com/blog/videos/rumsfeldliesnov2905.wmv), and you know what? He looks and sounds tired and defeated.

[CapelDodger]

Also, leave nuttsey missionaries there. In fact, send more missionaries.
Make it a condition of withdrawal that the favoured administration not only allow but encourage Christian missionaries. Get their eye off Africa while the truly cool move in on the future.

[joe1347]

Question for the Iraq war supporters - Not that I'm sure exactly what victory in Iraq really means (I guess that's a second question) - but is there at least ONE compelling reason for seeking victory in Iraq?? When I mean compelling reason, I'm trying to think pragmatically in terms of what's best for America - not for the Iraqis. Additionally, the compelling reason must be something that is not achievable by an alternate approach. For example, a pragmatic reason for achieving victory in Iraq is to secure the oil fields and ensure lots of cheap oil for the USA - and who cares how many Iraqis (or US soldiers) die - since we need the oil. However, this potentially compelling arguement falls apart because Venezuela also has lots of oil - possibly even more than Iraq if you count the heavy oil reserves - and Venezuela should be much easier to control/occupy than Iraq.

[WildCat]

Question for the Iraq war supporters - Not that I'm sure exactly what victory in Iraq really means (I guess that's a second question) - but is there at least ONE compelling reason for seeking victory in Iraq?? When I mean compelling reason, I'm trying to think pragmatically in terms of what's best for America - not for the Iraqis. Additionally, the compelling reason must be something that is not achievable by an alternate approach. For example, a pragmatic reason for achieving victory in Iraq is to secure the oil fields and ensure lots of cheap oil for the USA - and who cares how many Iraqis (or US soldiers) die - since we need the oil. However, this potentially compelling arguement falls apart because Venezuela also has lots of oil - possibly even more than Iraq if you count the heavy oil reserves - and Venezuela should be much easier to control/occupy than Iraq.
Cheap oil? On what planet are you living that has cheap oil?

Victory: A democratic Iraq that doesn't seek to raid Kuwaiti, Saudi, or Iranian oil fields while engaging in ethnic cleansing of Kurds/Shiite/etc. or support terrorism.

Benefits to the USA? Freeing up military resources that country has take for the last 15 years protecting oil supplies from the region. This in no way means we control the price of oil, no matter what you've been told by your conspiracy buddies.

BTW, Canada has 5 times more oil reserves than Saudi Arabia, makes you think huh? ;)

[kalen]

HEY! "New-Improved" works with laundry detergent, why won't it work with the "stay the course" hard-sell about Iraq? It shouldn't be all that hard to sell to the American people. After all, who doesn't want whiter whites and brighter colors?

"Out, damned spot! out, I say!"

[joe1347]

Cheap oil? On what planet are you living that has cheap oil?

Victory: A democratic Iraq that doesn't seek to raid Kuwaiti, Saudi, or Iranian oil fields while engaging in ethnic cleansing of Kurds/Shiite/etc. or support terrorism.

Benefits to the USA? Freeing up military resources that country has take for the last 15 years protecting oil supplies from the region. This in no way means we control the price of oil, no matter what you've been told by your conspiracy buddies.

BTW, Canada has 5 times more oil reserves than Saudi Arabia, makes you think huh? ;)

------------------------------------------------------------

Wildcats Victory: "A democratic Iraq that doesn't seek to raid Kuwaiti, Saudi, or Iranian oil fields while engaging in ethnic cleansing of Kurds/Shiite/etc. or support terrorism. Benefits to the USA? Freeing up military resources that country has take for the last 15 years protecting oil supplies from the region."

>>>> Since we're being pragmatic - why should we as Americans care one way or the other about ethnic cleansing? Plus are a few hundred thousand Shiites or Kurds worth a several more hundred billion US Dollars? No. As for Iraq supporting terrorism - we won't even go there in this discussion. Preventing a rogue Iraq from raiding/attacking neighboring (oil producing) countries - with the result of higher oil prices or gas rationing in the US - seems to be a reasonable explanation. But wouldn't USAF strategic bombing or the threat of USAF strategic bombing (conventional or even nuclear) "discourage" a rogue Iraq from attacking it's neighbors? So I'm not buying this arguement - since the US can be "overlords" for much less money than "occupiers".


Wildcat: BTW, Canada has 5 times more oil reserves than Saudi Arabia, makes you think huh?

>>>> Maybe - depending on whose interpretation you use for calculating reserves. http://www.peakoil.com/forums.html usually has some lively discussions on this topic. I'm still a novice when discussing energy policy - but from what I've read. Discussions on actual oil reserves, extraction costs, and the costs of near-term alternatives (shale oil, tar sands, heavy crude, coal gasification, etc.) is more convoluted and soaked in politics than any discussion on Iraq-related issues. As for "making you think" about Canadian oil reserves - I remember reading on peakoil that there is actually a movement in Alberta (the Canadian province that has all of the Oil) to secede from Canada and join the USA since Alberta is tired of being bleed dry (literally) to support the rest of the Canadian Socialized economy. Shouldn't we be starting a campaign to make Alberta the 51'st state with the promise of no corporate or personal Federal Taxes. Eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athabasca_Tar_Sands

[Kerberos]

Cheap oil? On what planet are you living that has cheap oil?

Victory: A democratic Iraq that doesn't seek to raid Kuwaiti, Saudi, or Iranian oil fields while engaging in ethnic cleansing of Kurds/Shiite/etc. or support terrorism.

Benefits to the USA? Freeing up military resources that country has take for the last 15 years protecting oil supplies from the region. This in no way means we control the price of oil, no matter what you've been told by your conspiracy buddies.

BTW, Canada has 5 times more oil reserves than Saudi Arabia, makes you think huh? ;)
It makes me think that this would be just wonderfull if not for the fact that Canadian oil is a different and far less useful kind than Saudi oil. Something about it being heavier I think (meaning it's more asphalt than oil), but I don't remember the details

[Mephisto]

"I know the character of the United States Armed Forces"
Big Dick Cheney

I really wonder about this particular statement. HOW does Cheney know the character of the armed forces? I guess he picked up a lot of that while applying for his FIVE COLLEGE DEFERRMENTS during Vietnam. This man is such a blatant friggin liar with such a low opinion of the common man that I hope he's beheaded when the peasants finally storm the Bastille!

The thing that bother me is the fact that no one calls him on these lies? Not one single reporter or journalist has raised the question. To me, being an American GI is something you CANNOT appreciate until you've been one, and being a combat veteran is even more exclusive. Too bad more veterans don't take offense at Cheney's assertion that "he knows about the character" of the armed forces. I noticed the Swift-Boat Wingnuts for Bush didn't say anything, but then their primary expertise is smearing the reputation of decorated Vietnam veterans everywhere.

[Mark]

Too bad more veterans don't take offense at Cheney's assertion that "he knows about the character" of the armed forces. I noticed the Swift-Boat Wingnuts for Bush didn't say anything, but then their primary expertise is smearing the reputation of decorated Vietnam veterans everywhere.

I have often wondered about that myself. I suppose it is another example of party loyalty above all else.

[Tony]

I notice from Bush's first statements that The Terrorists are now warring against "humanity".

I'm surprised his fundamentalist base didn't object to such a humanistic (and therefore evil, communist, and satanist) notion.

[a_unique_person]

It makes me think that this would be just wonderfull if not for the fact that Canadian oil is a different and far less useful kind than Saudi oil. Something about it being heavier I think (meaning it's more asphalt than oil), but I don't remember the details

It's a lot more expensive, otherwise they would have been drilling it for years, and not going to Saudi.

[Anti_Hypeman]

Didnt you see the banner? MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

Those bastards hated our freedom so we put a boot in their butt what kind of commie has a problem with that? USA USA USA USA BOOYAH!!!!!