Dean doing his best to lose big in 2008

[Jocko]

Okay, I once thought this guy was good for the Dems. He has personality, he has passion, he has conviction. I was wrong, although ironically for all the same reasons.

Dean declares Iraq a lost cause:
http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=C36A87B9-63A0-4CDE-AA91-B41571AFD3AF

Saying the "idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong," Democratic National Chairman Howard Dean predicted today that the Democratic Party will come together on a proposal to withdraw National Guard and Reserve troops immediately, and all US forces within two years.

Way to play to the center, Dems. I'm sure Hillary is just thrilled by this.

[rikzilla]

Okay, I once thought this guy was good for the Dems. He has personality, he has passion, he has conviction. I was wrong, although ironically for all the same reasons.

Dean declares Iraq a lost cause:
http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=C36A87B9-63A0-4CDE-AA91-B41571AFD3AF



Way to play to the center, Dems. I'm sure Hillary is just thrilled by this.

What a shame. If the old meme was true that Hillary is a man-hating lesbian at least she could support her opinion. It seems the men she has had the misfortune to associate with have screwed her over repeatedly. Does Dean perhaps hate Hillary?? Why else would he move the Democratic party so sharply left while his party's most viable candidate is staking out the middle?

I can almost hear the Republicans now....YEEEEE-AWWWWW!

-z

[Mephisto]

Yeah, what a panty-waist! After all, we won Korea and Vietnam, didn't we?

[Manny]

Does Dean perhaps hate Hillary?? Perhaps he's a fan of Jonathan Tasini (http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1846237,00.html)?

With enemies like these, who needs Karl Rove?

[Jocko]

Yeah, what a panty-waist! After all, we won Korea and Vietnam, didn't we?

Yeah, what an @sshole, spouting off about surrender with 10 days to go till the election!

Newsflash, Mephisto, Dean's rhetoric is a biiiiiig part of the reason why Korea and Vietname worked out the way they did. The left has been snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since Johnson, and just because they manage to re-enact this self-fulfilling prophecy every few decades doesn't make it some kind of law of nature.

It's just a law of the left. Victory is bad in Vietnam, Iraq, and 2008.

[Mark]

If the old meme was true that Hillary is a man-hating lesbian at least she could support her opinion.

Ah, intelligent conservative commentary.

[Mephisto]

Perhaps he's a fan of Jonathan Tasini (http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1846237,00.html)?

With enemies like these, who needs Karl Rove?

I especially liked this part . . .

"Baghdad - A woman whose identity will be kept secret and voice masked took the stand in the trial of Saddam Hussein on Tuesday, but the session had to be adjourned due to technical problems disguising her voice."

I can't wait until SNL or Jon Stewart get ahold of this! Wouldn't it be great to hear her "altered" voice break up so we hear Karl Rove or Rummy?

[Mark]

Yeah, what an @sshole, spouting off about surrender with 10 days to go till the election!

Newsflash, Mephisto, Dean's rhetoric is a biiiiiig part of the reason why Korea and Vietname worked out the way they did. The left has been snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since Johnson, and just because they manage to re-enact this self-fulfilling prophecy every few decades doesn't make it some kind of law of nature.

It's just a law of the left. Victory is bad in Vietnam, Iraq, and 2008.

Never mind the fact that no foreign power can dominate a country if the people there have risen up against it. But let's not let reality get in the way of a good Left bashing fairy tale.

15 years in Viet Nam with nothing accomplished except 59,000 dead American soldiers. But we could have won it if it weren't for those pesky liberals! If only we had sent Rambo!

[Mephisto]

Never mind the fact that no foreign power can dominate a country if the people there have risen up against it. But let's not let reality get in the way of a good Left bashing fairy tale.

15 years in Viet Nam with nothing accomplished except 59,000 dead American soldiers. But we could have won it if it weren't for those pesky liberals! If only we had sent Rambo!

Yeah, we lost in both places because we just didn't stay the course long enough. Just a few more years and we would have had them both!

[Manny]

I especially liked this part . . .
Oops, wrong link. Good thing I wasn't surfing porn then!

Try this one (http://www.nysun.com/article/24028).

[Mark]

Yeah, we lost in both places because we just didn't stay the course long enough. Just a few more years and we would have had them both!

One of my favorite bits is when the Right complain that the Left cost us victory in Viet Nam...but then are quick to point out that it was a Democrat who first performed escalatio* on the Vietnamese when someone blames the war on Nixon.

So, escalating the war was the Democrats' fault, and not winning the war was the Democrats fault because they...didn't escalate it.





* Thanks to Tom Lehrer for the word "escalatio."

[TragicMonkey]

Newsflash, Mephisto, Dean's rhetoric is a biiiiiig part of the reason why Korea and Vietname worked out the way they did. The left has been snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since Johnson, and just because they manage to re-enact this self-fulfilling prophecy every few decades doesn't make it some kind of law of nature.

It's just a law of the left. Victory is bad in Vietnam, Iraq, and 2008.

Reminds me of managers I've had: when I pointed out a critical flaw in their plans and they went ahead anyway and disaster ensued, it's always the fault of my "negativity".

[Jocko]

Never mind the fact that no foreign power can dominate a country if the people there have risen up against it. But let's not let reality get in the way of a good Left bashing fairy tale.

Oh, like the fairy tale that the insurgents represent the "people"? Mark, that would be funny if it wasn't so friggin' stupid. "The people".... like most rabid libs, you have no goddamned idea who the people are or what they think. "I don't know how Nixon won, no one I know voted for him!" Sound familiar? It should.

15 years in Viet Nam with nothing accomplished except 59,000 dead American soldiers. But we could have won it if it weren't for those pesky liberals! If only we had sent Rambo!

Ask a vet what they think of the voice of the left at the time. Hell, ask your boy Kerry and his winter soldier testimony. Ask Hanoi Jane.

You were on the wrong side of history then, you will be proven so again. I'm very glad your small delegation of the population doesn't control the agenda any longer, and doubly glad that your boy Dean is going to assure it stays that way.

[Mephisto]

Oops, wrong link. Good thing I wasn't surfing porn then!

Try this one (http://www.nysun.com/article/24028).

Heheh, I was wondering what Tasini had to do with the Iraqi woman's voice. I was really reaching for the connection, manny - I didn't want to appear too stupid.

I'm hesitant to either support or withdraw support from upcoming politicians on either side for the simple reason that the parties are in a momentous flux that will re-align things in a more (fair and) balanced way. "Old-school" conservatives are nearly as disenchanted with the current administration as are the usually ineffectual liberals, so I'm hoping the best of both will come out on top.

[rikzilla]

I especially liked this part . . .

"Baghdad - A woman whose identity will be kept secret and voice masked took the stand in the trial of Saddam Hussein on Tuesday, but the session had to be adjourned due to technical problems disguising her voice."

I can't wait until SNL or Jon Stewart get ahold of this! Wouldn't it be great to hear her "altered" voice break up so we hear Karl Rove or Rummy?

AhhhHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Thanks...you just made me shoot diet coke through my nose and onto my monitor!

Moderators Alert::You should put a warning on that post!!

-z

[Mephisto]

Ask a vet what they think of the voice of the left at the time. Hell, ask your boy Kerry and his winter soldier testimony. Ask Hanoi Jane.

I'm a vet and the "voice of the left" at the time didn't bother me half as much as the table at the Paris Peace talks. What shape did that finally end up being?

I'm always amazed at the swift-boat accusations of neo-cons who insist that Kerry's medals were a scam, that his combat experience was contrived and that there were no witnesses to the action for which he was awarded his medals, YET when it comes to the missing year and a half of their weekend-warrior they insist that a military career isn't really that important.

As for Jane Fonda, justice has been served - she's no longer a vivacious B-movie starlet on an anti-aircraft gun, she's just "that old broad in the exercise video." Why is she still so important to the people who think nothing of the whole Plame affair?

[Mark]

Oh, like the fairy tale that the insurgents represent the "people"? Mark, that would be funny if it wasn't so friggin' stupid. "The people".... like most rabid libs, you have no goddamned idea who the people are or what they think. "I don't know how Nixon won, no one I know voted for him!" Sound familiar? It should.



Ask a vet what they think of the voice of the left at the time. Hell, ask your boy Kerry and his winter soldier testimony. Ask Hanoi Jane.

You were on the wrong side of history then, you will be proven so again. I'm very glad your small delegation of the population doesn't control the agenda any longer, and doubly glad that your boy Dean is going to assure it stays that way.

You know, I keep trying to be polite to you, but you make it very difficult. You are a liar, plain and simple and I am getting very tired of it. I never said the "insurgents represent the people." Are you this stupid naturally? Or do you have to work at it? But it is true that as of the latest poll data 80% of the Iraqi people want us out. So much for us being there to help them.

I never said, "I don't know how Nixon won, no one I know voted for him!" It is true that after Watergate it was hard to find anyone who would admit voting for him. So once again you are a liar. Big surprise.

As far as your biggest lie, that all vets are in support of the Iraq war, here is a link to a site from the group Veterans Against the Iraq War. I already know you don't agree with them, but your implication that they don't exist is, indeed, just another lie. http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php

As far as Viet Nam, I guess you also choose to forget that HUGE opposition to the war came from the group Viet Nam Veterans Against the War.

Are you even capable of telling the truth?

[Mephisto]

AhhhHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Thanks...you just made me shoot diet coke through my nose and onto my monitor!

Moderators Alert::You should put a warning on that post!!

-z

Or a caution:

CAUTION

Poster assumes no responsibility for choking or shooting soft drinks out the nose (or the associated brain burn) while reading this post

Manny really had me going for awhile there - I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist, but I was really wondering what he was trying to say . . .

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Gentlemen! Gentlemen! Let's stop this bickering!

I think intelligent people can agree - Dean is a buffoon, and Hillary is an idiot***.


***And lest you think I am partisan, yes, W is an idiot too.

[Jocko]

Gentlemen! Gentlemen! Let's stop this bickering!

I think intelligent people can agree - Dean is a buffoon, and Hillary is an idiot***.


***And lest you think I am partisan, yes, W is an idiot too.

Agreed on all points, though I doubt Mark will settle for anything less than "W is the antichrist who raped my momma."

Like my coffee, I prefer no froth in my politics.

[Jocko]

You know, I keep trying to be polite to you, but you make it very difficult. You are a liar, plain and simple and I am getting very tired of it. I never said the "insurgents represent the people." Are you this stupid naturally? Or do you have to work at it? But it is true that as of the latest poll data 80% of the Iraqi people want us out. So much for us being there to help them.

I never said, "I don't know how Nixon won, no one I know voted for him!" It is true that after Watergate it was hard to find anyone who would admit voting for him. So once again you are a liar. Big surprise.

As far as your biggest lie, that all vets are in support of the Iraq war, here is a link to a site from the group Veterans Against the Iraq War. I already know you don't agree with them, but your implication that they don't exist is, indeed, just another lie. http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php

As far as Viet Nam, I guess you also choose to forget that HUGE opposition to the war came from the group Viet Nam Veterans Against the War.

Are you even capable of telling the truth?

Mark, you lovable doofus, you are the liar. I never said "all" of anybody supported anything, because if I did, well, I'd be you. To wit, a friggin' liar.

I'd ask you to back up your accusations by quoting me back, but since that's never resulted in anything more than more lies, convenient re-definitions of simple words and olympic-grade backpedaling from you, I won't bother.

Bottom line, and the point of my OP: Dems continue to self-destruct. Got anything to offer on that, apart from demonstrating it for us in real-time?

[Mark]

Mark, you lovable doofus, you are the liar. I never said "all" of anybody supported anything, because if I did, well, I'd be you. To wit, a friggin' liar.

I'd ask you to back up your accusations by quoting me back, but since that's never resulted in anything more than more lies, convenient re-definitions of simple words and olympic-grade backpedaling from you, I won't bother.

Bottom line, and the point of my OP: Dems continue to self-destruct. Got anything to offer on that, apart from demonstrating it for us in real-time?

Read your own post above. If you want to get along with me, all you have to do is stop putting words in my mouth...words that I not only never said, but often strongly disagree with.

As far as the Democrats self-destructing, what do you want me to say? It's my single biggest complaint against them.

[Manny]

Psst. Mark. C'mere. You're not supposed to find the Nixon remark familiar because you said it but because it's kind of famous. It's attributed to Pauline Kael.

[Jocko]

Read your own post above. If you want to get along with me, all you have to do is stop putting words in my mouth...words that I not only never said, but often strongly disagree with.

As far as the Democrats self-destructing, what do you want me to say? It's my single biggest complaint against them.


You said I claimed "all" vets felt a certain way.
I said no such thing - I made a generalized statement that did not even INTIMATE "all."
Therefore, you are a liar.

You are truly a model of the modern Democrat, Mark. How many shoes can you fit in your mouth at once?

[Jocko]

Psst. Mark. C'mere. You're not supposed to find the Nixon remark familiar because you said it but because it's kind of famous. It's attributed to Pauline Kael.

Talk about not learning from history...

[Mark]

You said I claimed "all" vets felt a certain way.
I said no such thing - I made a generalized statement that did not even INTIMATE "all."
Therefore, you are a liar.

You are truly a model of the modern Democrat, Mark. How many shoes can you fit in your mouth at once?

And now you start to backpedal. You said to ask a vet...you never suggested or implied that any vet could possibly disagree with your position.


Here are your exact words:
Ask a vet what they think of the voice of the left at the time. Hell, ask your boy Kerry and his winter soldier testimony. Ask Hanoi Jane.

You were on the wrong side of history then, you will be proven so again.

It's just sad, Jocko.

[Mephisto]

Gentlemen! Gentlemen! Let's stop this bickering!

I think intelligent people can agree - Dean is a buffoon, and Hillary is an idiot***.


***And lest you think I am partisan, yes, W is an idiot too.

See, it doesn't take much for us all to find something we can agree on, if we just look!

[Mark]

Psst. Mark. C'mere. You're not supposed to find the Nixon remark familiar because you said it but because it's kind of famous. It's attributed to Pauline Kael.

Jocko

Oh, like the fairy tale that the insurgents represent the "people"? Mark, that would be funny if it wasn't so friggin' stupid. "The people".... like most rabid libs, you have no goddamned idea who the people are or what they think. "I don't know how Nixon won, no one I know voted for him!" Sound familiar? It should.


Do you see any attributing of the remark to Pauline Kael? He was calling me stupid, not Pauline Kael.

And, btw, lots of commentators at the time made the observation that after Watergate, you couldn't find anyone who had voted for Nixon. Which, while hyperbolic, did have a lot of truth to it. Just like now when you can hardly find anyone who will admit ever having bought a Michael Jackson CD.

[Jocko]

And now you start to backpedal. You said to ask a vet...you never suggested or implied that any vet could possibly disagree with your position.


Here are your exact words:


It's just sad, Jocko.

What's sad is that you, a grown adult, see "every" whenever someone types "a." Your... creative... use of language is well documented, and up to the highest tradations of your proud party. I can't help it when you're willfully ignornat, I can't help it when you hide behind a web of artificial confusion, I can't help it when you lie. But I call it when I see it.

I'm really dying to know what part of America people like you claim to love. You despise the president, most of congress, the majority of "jesus freaks" who voted them in, the military.... yeah, how could anyone ever question your patriotism?

[Jocko]

Jocko


Do you see any attributing of the remark to Pauline Kael? He was calling me stupid, not Pauline Kael.

And, btw, lots of commentators at the time made the observation that after Watergate, you couldn't find anyone who had voted for Nixon. Which, while hyperbolic, did have a lot of truth to it. Just like now when you can hardly find anyone who will admit ever having bought a Michael Jackson CD.

Mark, immunologists should study your blood.... you manage to never get ANYTHING.

[Skeptic]

Never mind the fact that no foreign power can dominate a country if the people there have risen up against it.

I fail to see why. The small Iraqi Sunni minority had dominated Iraq for decades despite repeated uprisings against its power.

[jj]

Mark, immunologists should study your blood.... you manage to never get ANYTHING.

Repetition is the lynchpin of propaganda - Joseph Goebbels.

[Jocko]

Repetition is the lynchpin of propaganda - Joseph Goebbels.

Keep repeating it, JJ, it's better than any of the original crap you ever manage to produce.

[Mark]

I fail to see why. The small Iraqi Sunni minority had dominated Iraq for decades despite repeated uprisings against its power.

They were not a foreign power.

[Jocko]

They were not a foreign power.

Neither are Iraqi security forces, but then you think anything associated with the US is corrupt and tainted.

[Mark]

What's sad is that you, a grown adult, see "every" whenever someone types "a." Your... creative... use of language is well documented, and up to the highest tradations of your proud party. I can't help it when you're willfully ignornat, I can't help it when you hide behind a web of artificial confusion, I can't help it when you lie. But I call it when I see it.

I'm really dying to know what part of America people like you claim to love. You despise the president, most of congress, the majority of "jesus freaks" who voted them in, the military.... yeah, how could anyone ever question your patriotism?

Please show a quote---any quote---where I said or implied that I despise the military. Once again you are putting words in my mouth that I not only didn't say, but with which I actively disagree. Liar.

As far as "Jesus freaks," you may like to know that my oldest and dearest friend is a Baptist minister. I strongly support---even demand---separation of church and state (so does he, btw), but that distinction is probably too subtle for someone of your limited capacity.

I will give you that I despise the way our government is currently being run. What thinking person does not?

[Mark]

Neither are Iraqi security forces, but then you think anything associated with the US is corrupt and tainted.

And once again you put words in my mouth which I never said, and actively disagree with. Liar.

[Jocko]

And once again you put words in my mouth which I never said, and actively disagree with. Liar.


Fair enough. Amended.

Neither are Iraqi security forces. Why is that different?

[Jocko]

I will give you that I despise the way our government is currently being run. What thinking person does not?

About 53% of the electorate, by my recollection.

[jj]

Please show a quote---any quote---where I said or implied that I despise the military. Once again you are putting words in my mouth that I not only didn't say, but with which I actively disagree. Liar.

He and a couple other of the lying fascist snots here have tried the same on me. It seems that if you disagree with THEIR interpretation, well, then you must fit all of their prejudices.

They seem immune, for instance, to the simple fact that it's because I support the military, and especially the people IN the military, I would like to see us disengaged from Iraq.

Of course, it's outright unethical to just withdraw after we pushed the country from penny-ante dictator status to outright chaos. That's sad, because lots of honest, hard-working troops will die as a result of the lies and rogue-state actions of our president.

[Mark]

Fair enough. Amended.

Neither are Iraqi security forces. Why is that different?

They are not what? A foreign power? True...but just because a foreign power cannot hold a country that is determined to throw them out (ask the former Soviet Union), that does not mean that a native force can.

Frankly, we have created such a complete mess there, I cannot think what will restore order except another Hussein-like dictatorship. And before you get all in a lather, I am NOT calling for that. But I have suspected all along that that is what will happen...and we will be blamed for it. Just as happened with Iran.

It seems, due to our leaders' lack of knowledge about history, we are indeed doomed to repeat it. Again.

[Mark]

He and a couple other of the lying fascist snots here have tried the same on me. It seems that if you disagree with THEIR interpretation, well, then you must fit all of their prejudices.

They seem immune, for instance, to the simple fact that it's because I support the military, and especially the people IN the military, I would like to see us disengaged from Iraq.

Of course, it's outright unethical to just withdraw after we pushed the country from penny-ante dictator status to outright chaos. That's sad, because lots of honest, hard-working troops will die as a result of the lies and rogue-state actions of our president.

True. I wish I had a solution, I really do.

[Jocko]

They are not what? A foreign power? True...but just because a foreign power cannot hold a country that is determined to throw them out (ask the former Soviet Union), that does not mean that a native force can.

Well, Mark, then it's a little dishonest for you to point to the Sunnis as an example on the one hand, then the new militia on the other, and claim the rule that validates the first somehow invalidates the second.

Frankly, we have created such a complete mess there, I cannot think what will restore order except another Hussein-like dictatorship. And before you get all in a lather, I am NOT calling for that. But I have suspected all along that that is what will happen...and we will be blamed for it. Just as happened with Iran.

It seems, due to our leaders' lack of knowledge about history, we are indeed doomed to repeat it. Again.

How about doing Dean/Kerry/etc. one better and actually proposing an alternative? Or are you really with the "out now" crowd?

[Mycroft]

And, btw, lots of commentators at the time made the observation that after Watergate, you couldn't find anyone who had voted for Nixon. Which, while hyperbolic, did have a lot of truth to it. Just like now when you can hardly find anyone who will admit ever having bought a Michael Jackson CD.


Well, when I was buying them it was before there were CDs.

Why would anyone deny buying MJ? Just because his brain melted doesnt' mean he can't sing.

[Mark]

Well, Mark, then it's a little dishonest for you to point to the Sunnis as an example on the one hand, then the new militia on the other, and claim the rule that validates the first somehow invalidates the second.



How about doing Dean/Kerry/etc. one better and actually proposing an alternative? Or are you really with the "out now" crowd?

Believe me, if I had one I would. But what we are doing isn't working...and doing more of what doesn't work isn't going to help.
to build an international team---including some Arab countries---to try and sort out the mess. It wouldn't be as emotionally satisfying to the "Nuke 'em 'till they glow!" crowd---and it would be hard on our national ego in the short term---but it just might, in the long run help clean up the mess. It wouldn't be easy, though, and I am not suggesting for a moment it would be.

[Jocko]

Believe me, if I had one I would. But what we are doing isn't working...and doing more of what doesn't work isn't going to help.
to build an international team---including some Arab countries---to try and sort out the mess. It wouldn't be as emotionally satisfying to the "Nuke 'em 'till they glow!" crowd---and it would be hard on our national ego in the short term---but it just might, in the long run help clean up the mess. It wouldn't be easy, though, and I am not suggesting for a moment it would be.

And suppose they still say no. Or more likely, non. then what?

[Manny]

to build an international team---including some Arab countries---to try and sort out the mess.It's not like we haven't asked. Many countries won't even send people to help train local police! (Though in fairness, more and more are accepting police candidates in their own countries for training). As for local partners, there's a problem. Those countries in the best position to help also have the most to lose by having a successful democracy next door. Suppose it works -- however it works -- and Iraq becomes a stable, successful democracy with rising living standards for her people. Is that good or bad for the Wahhibists in Saudi Arabia? The mullahs in Iran? The Ba'athists in Syria? How do you think Turkey views the prospect of a few million free, prosperous Kurds just to the south of their oppressed, impoverished Kurdish population? Success might be great news for Lebanon, but they're in no position to offer much beyond a kind word -- they've got their own foreign occupiers to finish overcoming. The Iraqis don't really like Jordan right about now, accusing them variously of profiting off the sanctions and failing to offer sanctuary to refugees from the Saddam regime. Within that context, Jordan has been helping as best it can, to the point where some conspiracy types were musing that the US would essentially give Iraq to Jordan, uniting them in a huge Hashemite kingdom.

It wouldn't be as emotionally satisfying to the "Nuke 'em 'till they glow!" crowd.Yeah, but those guys can go (heh) pound sand.

[rikzilla]

aww...skip it....

[Mark]

It's not like we haven't asked. Many countries won't even send people to help train local police! (Though in fairness, more and more are accepting police candidates in their own countries for training). As for local partners, there's a problem. Those countries in the best position to help also have the most to lose by having a successful democracy next door. Suppose it works -- however it works -- and Iraq becomes a stable, successful democracy with rising living standards for her people. Is that good or bad for the Wahhibists in Saudi Arabia? The mullahs in Iran? The Ba'athists in Syria? How do you think Turkey views the prospect of a few million free, prosperous Kurds just to the south of their oppressed, impoverished Kurdish population? Success might be great news for Lebanon, but they're in no position to offer much beyond a kind word -- they've got their own foreign occupiers to finish overcoming. The Iraqis don't really like Jordan right about now, accusing them variously of profiting off the sanctions and failing to offer sanctuary to refugees from the Saddam regime. Within that context, Jordan has been helping as best it can, to the point where some conspiracy types were musing that the US would essentially give Iraq to Jordan, uniting them in a huge Hashemite kingdom.

Yeah, but those guys can go (heh) pound sand.


With all due respect, our attitude so far has been "our way or the highway." I think if we swallow our pride and ---yes---apologize for going at this thing vitually unilaterally, and accept compromise, I imagine the results might be very different. It certainly hasn't been tried yet.

And if the world refuses? At some point we will have to let the Iraqis sink or swim, just as happened in Viet Nam. And I suspect the results will be similar. Although it did work out well in the long run there, sort of. At least in terms of trade.

[Manny]

Manny really had me going for awhile there - I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist, but I was really wondering what he was trying to say . . .Heh. Sorry again for that. It could have been worse. I could have linked you to a Lehman Brothers report on the Canadian dollar, the lumber tariff settlement and their effects on the market for cardboard boxes. So there's that. ;)

In other news, the terrorist supporters at Codepink have decided to "bird-dog" Senator Clinton, protesting wherever she goes (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/372195p-316484c.html). Maybe the Clintonites have this all planned out, to make sure actual Americans know she's a centrist who won't pander to the far left, even if it heads the party? I dunno.

[Mycroft]

Maybe the Clintonites have this all planned out, to make sure actual Americans know she's a centrist who won't pander to the far left, even if it heads the party? I dunno.

That's the kind of thing I like about Hillary. I wonder if she has a chance in '08.

[fishbob]

In other news, the terrorist supporters at Codepink have decided to "bird-dog" Senator Clinton, protesting wherever she goes (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/372195p-316484c.html). Maybe the Clintonites have this all planned out, to make sure actual Americans know she's a centrist who won't pander to the far left, even if it heads the party? I dunno.
No, it looks like she plans to pander somewhere else.

Sen. Clinton co-sponsors anti-flag burning law
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny-brf--clinton-flag-1205dec05,0,7179096.story?coll=ny-region-apnewyork

[hammegk]

I'm a vet and the "voice of the left" at the time didn't bother me half as much as the table at the Paris Peace talks. What shape did that finally end up being?
Would you say the Paris outcome reflected the agenda of the liberals, or the conservatives?


I'm always amazed at the swift-boat accusations of neo-cons who insist that Kerry's medals were a scam, that his combat experience was contrived and that there were no witnesses to the action for which he was awarded his medals, YET when it comes to the missing year and a half of their weekend-warrior they insist that a military career isn't really that important.
Sorry, your guy lost the election. What can I say.


As for Jane Fonda, justice has been served - she's no longer a vivacious B-movie starlet on an anti-aircraft gun, she's just "that old broad in the exercise video." Why is she still so important to the people who think nothing of the whole Plame affair?
Wilson is more aligned to the Julius Rosenberg non-aligned camp. Valerie was just collateral damage, and sfaik, her outing didn't jeopardize troops in the field, or give comfort to their enemies -- other than perhaps demonstrating, again, what an amazingly inept and squabbling group it is we have in the USA.

It's a damn good thing for the rest of the world we can't actually reach broad and sustainable agreement on any course of action.

[Manny]

No, it looks like she plans to pander somewhere else.


http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny-brf--clinton-flag-1205dec05,0,7179096.story?coll=ny-region-apnewyork
Oh, Cheezits ate mice! First the video game thing and now this. I can't believe I have a chance to vote against one of the most fiscally liberal members of the Senate and I'm going to end up doing it because she's too socially conservative.

[Nyarlathotep]

Oh, Cheezits ate mice! First the video game thing and now this. I can't believe I have a chance to vote against one of the most fiscally liberal members of the Senate and I'm going to end up doing it because she's too socially conservative.

She is increasingly becoming the worst of both worlds.

[Mephisto]

Oh, Cheezits ate mice! First the video game thing and now this. I can't believe I have a chance to vote against one of the most fiscally liberal members of the Senate and I'm going to end up doing it because she's too socially conservative.

I tell ya, manny - it's best to wait this whole thing out. It's too topsy-turvy right now; socially conservative Dems, a Republican party spending money like a 15 year old girl at the mall with Daddy's plastic, a Republican Prez & VP with little military experience calling for us to "stay the course" while an ex-Marine saying it's time to bring them home.

What's next? Jocko and American become Green Peace members at a Diversity Rally while demon and Dr. Adequate call for the invasion of Iran?

[Manny]

The weirdest part? Poll after poll after poll shows that Americans are, broadly speaking, more socially liberal and fiscally conservative than the respective parties. Gay people making out = ratings! Tax cuts are mostly popular, people mostly vote for spending restraints when given the chance and there's essentially no class envy. So where the hell is the candidate telling me s/he'll finance a tax cut with all the revenue brought in by gay marriage licenses!

[hammegk]

...So where the hell is the candidate telling me s/he'll finance a tax cut with all the revenue brought in by gay marriage licenses!
Frighteningly enough (to me) even I agree with that stance. That and the increased demand for divorce lawyers should put the economy in orbit. :)

[a_unique_person]

Yeah, what an @sshole, spouting off about surrender with 10 days to go till the election!

Newsflash, Mephisto, Dean's rhetoric is a biiiiiig part of the reason why Korea and Vietname worked out the way they did. The left has been snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since Johnson, and just because they manage to re-enact this self-fulfilling prophecy every few decades doesn't make it some kind of law of nature.

It's just a law of the left. Victory is bad in Vietnam, Iraq, and 2008.

The Vietnam war resulted in the deaths of between 2 and 3 million Vietnamese. I don't think it was for lack of trying that the war was lost.

[luchog]

The weirdest part? Poll after poll after poll shows that Americans are, broadly speaking, more socially liberal and fiscally conservative than the respective parties. Gay people making out = ratings! Tax cuts are mostly popular, people mostly vote for spending restraints when given the chance and there's essentially no class envy. So where the hell is the candidate telling me s/he'll finance a tax cut with all the revenue brought in by gay marriage licenses!
You know, if the LP could actually get their collective (heh) head out of their tuchis, get focussed on a solid gradualist platform, and purge the lunatic fringe, they could actually make some significant gains in 2008.

Shout-outs from everyone who thinks that's going to happen?

::crickets::