million

[monsterfarmer]

i want to go for the 1 million dollars... by finding underground electric power lines

[Hastur]

1. How do you propose to find them? If you're using any commonly available devices, then it is not a paranormal feat and will not be accepted.

2. Under what circumstances?

3. How many times out of a number of trials do you expect to succeed? It needs to be much better than chance would allow for.

[William Smith]

i want to go for the 1 million dollars... by finding underground electric power lines

Welcome to the forum, monsterfarmer.



Please devote some of your time to this:

http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html

and, after that, this:

http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html



If you still have questions after the thorough study of those links, we will gladly assist you further.

[monsterfarmer]

i will find underground power lines by using 2 long stem peices of grass. I will hold 1 stem in each hand when they cross is where i will mark under ground power lines. would be great to do the it in june/july.

[monsterfarmer]

also it must be calm outside, not to much wind. It should be 90 percent acurate ,give or take a percent. ... and the ground should not be to dry.

[monsterfarmer]

and the ground should not be to dry

[Metullus]

I can find buried utilities & drains. The only requirement is that I be digging and I not be looking for them. My power is most effective late in the day or on weekends.

[Nucular]

Welcome, mosterfarmer.

A couple of things you probably need to know:

1) none of us on this board are associated with the JREF in any official capacity - we're usually pretty happy to discuss claims, protocols, and say how we think you might be mistaken, but if you want to officially apply, you need to send in a proper application as per the links that GzuzKryzt posted above.

2) There have been lots of dowsing applicants before. None have won, and most have gone away extremely surprised. This is generally because they've never tested themselves properly in a manner similar to JREF test conditions, to rule out semiconscious knowledge, cues from an observer, or luck and chance. If you want to save yourself some time and bother, test yourself properly first.

[petre]

First, my default "new person interested in the challenge" advice. It is based only on my own observations on what problems applicants seem to run into:

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

1. Read and understand the challenge rules linked from that page before doing anything. This is actually the only step JREF requires before you apply (though note there are many steps to the application process after that). I note though that it may save you time, frustration, and resources if you look at my other suggestions listed below before applying.

2. Read the FAQs linked from the page I listed above. It will give you a better understanding of the entire process. If some part of the process is still unclear, people here may be able to help clarify things.

3. Attempt to form a simple test protocol for yourself to test whether you can consistently reproduce results. People here can be of assistance with that.

4. Locate people willing to give a few moments of their time that you feel can objectively judge if you are able to demonstrate your claim. Some people are uncomfortable revealing their belief in the paranormal out of fear of the reaction. Assuming you have completed suggestion 3, a good approach is probably to simply say that you've been experimenting with something and have surprising results. Then ask if they'd be willing to examine it with you to determine if they see what you see.

5. Read some of the challenge applications linked from the above page. That link isn't working right now since the server change, but will probably be fixed by the time you get to this step. Otherwise, folks here can help you find it pretty quick. Try looking at what problems other applicants have had to anticipate any you may run into yourself.

6. Create a brief statement of what ability it is you are going to demonstrate, and design a robust test protocol for you to demonstrate for the challenge. Such a protocol needs to be double-blind. You need not describe how you think your ability works, just the statement of what it is and how you will demonstrate it. Also, consider how less-honest persons might attempt to fake a display of this power and look for controls that will prove you are not using such means. Again, people here can help with this step if you ask, including understanding what it means for a test to be double-blind.

7. I would suggest you perform one or more of these double-blind tests so that you can be confident in their success when it comes time to take the preliminary test. If you were to fail the preliminary test due to unforeseen issues, it would prevent you from retesting for an entire year at least.

8. After all of the previous steps are complete, it is time to officially apply for the challenge. After you have applied, Kramer will contact you to continue the application process.

Note that failure at any given step should make you pause to consider why. It indicates a problem you may encounter later in the application process that would be easier to fix now than after you have begun the process.

Finally, JREF prefers to simplify protocols. Would you be able to simply identify if a visible, indoor powerline carried an electric current or not? If so, then a good suggestion for a protocol is to identify whether or not such a line is 'on' or 'off' for a number of trials, say 10, and that you'll be accurate for 90%.

If your power doesn't identify current, but instead the metal (or whatever) in the line itself, then perhaps haveing a number of long boxes would do. One of the boxes would contain a power line, and your job would then be to identify which one.

Either of these would make things easier, as they could be conducted indoors and wouldn't require digging for confirmation.

[Psiload]

i want to go for the 1 million dollars... by finding underground electric power lines-How high does the voltage have to be?

-Does the voltage need to be flowing, as in actually powering a load, or can the lines merely be energized?

-How deep/shallow should the lines be buried?

-Besides dry ground, what other confounding factors might negate or interfere with your abilities?

[ObscureReferenceMan]

There have been lots of dowsing applicants before. None have won, and most have gone away extremely surprised. This is generally because they've never tested themselves properly in a manner similar to JREF test conditions, to rule out semiconscious knowledge, cues from an observer, or luck and chance. If you want to save yourself some time and bother, test yourself properly first.

Nucular - Don't forget confirmation bias and wishful thinking.

monsterfarmer - You might want to familiarize yourself with (in addition to the two above) as many "logical fallacies" as possible. In a nutshell, these are errors we all make in our thinking that can cause us to, for example, see correlations where none exist. A few links:
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/l/lo/logical_fallacy.htm
http://skepdic.com/refuge/ctlessons/lesson5.html

[gnome]

I see a problem: It is possible to research in advance the location of underground power lines.

[ObscureReferenceMan]

Dang! Sorry. I should have give all the "lessons" for the skepdic link. Here is where to start:
http://skepdic.com/refuge/ctlessons.html

[monsterfarmer]

this will be a simple test . When i walk around and the grass stems ,that are being held loosely in my hands , cross i will leave a marker. The lines i found before were no more than 3 ft deep. I never tryed to find any ones that were deeper. The lines were energized. I am not sure if they were powering something like an electric motor or lights. I dont think i could do this test indoors. there would be to many electric power lines inside a building . ty all for your posts and i will read the links you posted

[petre]

this will be a simple test . When i walk around and the grass stems ,that are being held loosely in my hands , cross i will leave a marker. The lines i found before were no more than 3 ft deep. I never tryed to find any ones that were deeper. The lines were energized. I am not sure if they were powering something like an electric motor or lights. I dont think i could do this test indoors. there would be to many electric power lines inside a building . ty all for your posts and i will read the links you posted

If electrical interference could be an issue, I suggest you look into just how big an issue it could be. JREF videotapes all challenge tests, and if the video equipment will interfere with the test you'll have to find some way around it.

[Flange Desire]

Great monsterfarmer.
But have you read the challenge rules and requisites (the links that were suggested to you) yet?

[monsterfarmer]

yes i have read the rules and faq I wonder how far i will have to travel?

[Lisa Simpson]

Usually, the test is arranged to be where ever you are, unless there are no skeptic groups in the area willing to test you.

[eri]

Monsterfarmer, the easiest way for someone to check your ability would be something like Randi's dowsing maze - buried wires that may or may not have power flowing through them. Can you distinguish between a live wire and one that carries no current?

[monsterfarmer]

quote : Monsterfarmer, the easiest way for someone to check your ability would be something like Randi's dowsing maze - buried wires that may or may not have power flowing through them. Can you distinguish between a live wire and one that carries no current? Quote Eri i dontknow if i could do that i never tryed. on the discover channel website is a forum on myth busters . We were discussing witching or dowsing. I said that i used two pieces of grass and located under ground power lines. A response came why not go for the million. I said what million. The response was this link. A million is a pile of money. So what the hell lets go for the million.

[William Smith]

...
We were discussing witching or dowsing. I said that i used two pieces of grass and located under ground power lines. A response came why not go for the million. I said what million. The response was this link. A million is a pile of money. So what the hell lets go for the million.

Make sure to check this again:

http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#4.2

[Anti_Hypeman]

How do you know you found them did you dig them up? How many times have you tried it?

[LordoftheLeftHand]

How do you know you found them did you dig them up? How many times have you tried it?


That’s a good question.

monsterfarmer: You need to do some experimentation to learn under what conditions you can demonstrate this phenomenon. Obviously the JREF is not going to agree to a test where you mark the location of a live power line then try to dig it up!

Try some think like this:

Run an extension cord across your backyard and plug something significant into it (say maybe a large lamp) turn it on. See if you can detect the extension cord with your usual method. If you can, a test could be easily constructed with a similar method.

If you can't detect this maybe you could use several extension cords and tape them together (make sure you don't do anything dangerous though!).

You might want to seek the help of an electrician if you are uncomfortable with playing with electricity.

Let us know what you learn.

LLH

[LordoftheLeftHand]

doh! double post

[Jackalgirl]

Hi, Monsterfarmer --

Welcome to the Forum! I wanted to chime in with a couple of things, too, to help you out.

First off, dowsing has been pretty well shown to be a result of something called "the ideomotor effect". What this means is that if a person knows -- or has some way of suspecting, even subconsciously -- where an object is located, their own motion is what causes the dowsing apparatus to react. So what you need to do is figure out a test that competely rules out this effect.

This is what double-blind testing sets out to prove. LotLH has an excellent suggestion about running an extension cord. This isn't an actual test; rather, it's something that will help you determine the limitations of your proposed ability. Once you know the limitations, it'll be MUCH EASIER to design a test. Some things you should try:

1) The extension cord idea. Try seeing if you get the effect with the large lamp (or other item) turned on as opposed to it turned off (flowing current vs simply energized line).

2) Car batteries. Can you detect those?

You should also give careful thought to all of the things that might mess up the results. Dry ground is one you've already identified. Try to figure out and factor for anything else.

It'd be great if you could detect car batteries -- I can think of a test right off the bat that would work:

You and two friends (friend A and friend B). You all locate a place that is reasonably free of buried power lines, so that your ability is not confused. Then, you and friend A go somewhere out of sight of the location with some means of being signalled (e.g., ringing a cellphone, but no talking allowed!). Friend B rolls two ten-sided gaming dice (one marked 10, 20, 30, etc and the other 1-10 as normal) to get a result of 1-00 (that is, 1 to 100) and writes down the result. He or she then hides a car battery inside one of ten numbered boxes, with the number equivalent to [dice roll divided by 10, second digit dropped), weighing down the others with a single gallon container of water each. Once this is complete, friend B leaves the area and signals. You return with friend A and, without touching the boxes, use your ability to identify which of the ten boxes contains the battery. Friend A writes this result down. You leave the area and signal friend B. Friend B returns and repeats the dice roll/car battery hiding process, while also moving ALL BOXES slightly. You're then signalled, return with friend A, etc. Repeat this ten times. I am an not a mathematician, and I think someone else can jump in with the probability of getting, say, five right -- but I'm sure that's WAY more than chance.

Note that my method of determining the box numbers probably isn't random enough. But I think that this would be an outstanding way to really test yourself, and something along these lines is what you'll have to do to win the million. But heck, it's worth a million, right?

So figure out the limitations of your ability -- what you can and cannot test for -- so that you can start on designing a test that rules out things like the ideomotor effect and interfering influences. I honestly mean it when I say that I'm interested to read more about what you find out.

Good luck!

-- Jackalgirl

Edited for clarity

[Rasmus]

First off, dowsing has been pretty well shown to be a result of something called "the ideomotor effect". What this means is that if a person knows -- or has some way of suspecting, even subconsciously -- where an object is located, their own motion is what causes the dowsing apparatus to react. So what you need to do is figure out a test that competely rules out this effect.

He should only need a test that makes sure that he doesn't know, conciously or subconciously, where the object is located. How he identifies it, and if the rod just serves to amplify his body movement or is material to the finding of the object wouldn't matter.

(one marked 10, 20, 30, etc and the other 1-10 as normal) to get a result of 1-00 (that is, 1 to 100) and writes down the result. He or she then hides a car battery inside one of ten numbered boxes, with the number equivalent to [dice roll divided by 10, second digit dropped),

I might be missing something here ... why use two dice, when you in fact only need and use the result of one of the two?

Rasmus.

[monsterfarmer]

Do you people think that dowsing is a paranormal thing , a basic unexplained electrical Phenomena or just an ((( ideomotor effect))) ?

[Nucular]

I think you'll find that pretty much everyone here would say ideomotor. What do you think it is, monsterfarmer?

[Pup]

Ideomotor effect with some confirmation bias thrown in. In other words, if a dowser is wrong, they look for a reason and try to find a pattern, creating more and more elaborate excuses. They claim they're only wrong because it was too wet, or too dry, or the item wasn't large enough, or there was interference, or whatever, rather than considering the possibility that they're wrong sometimes simply because they don't have any special powers.

[monsterfarmer]

probably ideomotor.... but the world was once flat and the earth was the center of the universe only time and science will find the true answer

[Nucular]

time and science will find the true answer
That's why we're all here :)

Randi's protocol will eliminate the possibility of results being due to the ideomotor effect (or, of course, confirmation bias).

So if you think it's "probably ideomotor", that means presumably you're doubtful that you'd win the million?

[monsterfarmer]

I know i will have to test myself first before doing the challenge. I feel that i can do it . But before i try i will triple test it first

[eri]

I know i will have to test myself first before doing the challenge. I feel that i can do it . But before i try i will triple test it first

Good! We wish more applicants would test themselves first. It saves a lot of time, trouble, and possible embarressment. But good luck!

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Do you people think that dowsing is a paranormal thing , a basic unexplained electrical Phenomena or just an ((( ideomotor effect))) ?

I would guess ideomotor effect. But if it was paranormal or and unknown natural effect that would be awesome!

LLH

[Rolfe]

By the way, when was the world flat?

Rolfe.

[Jackalgirl]

I might be missing something here ... why use two dice, when you in fact only need and use the result of one of the two

I was just thinking that it might be handy to have a larger set of numbers, rather than just 1-10. But you're right: for the purpose of a simple test, a ten-sider would be just as good.

[Almo]

Hey monster! Here's a link to a challenge that went though its whole cycle smoothly, from application to test. It should give you an idea of how these things work when they work they way they're supposed to.

http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showthread.php?t=38788