Iran leader: Holocaust a 'myth'

[CFLarsen]

Iran leader: Holocaust a 'myth'

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Wednesday the Holocaust is a "myth" that Europeans have used to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.

"Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets," Ahmadinejad told a crowd of thousands in the southeastern city of Zahedan.

Six million Jews were killed in Europe during the Nazi Holocaust of World War II.

Ahmadinejad said it was the Europeans who committed crimes against the Jews and they, the United States or Canada should give part of their land to the Jews to establish a state.

Ahmadinejad provoked an international outcry in October when he called Israel a "disgraceful blot" that should be "wiped off the map."

Last week, he suggested that Israel should be transferred to Europe, drawing further condemnation.
Source (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/14/iran.israel.ap/index.html)

Dangerous.

[a_unique_person]

I think he actually said that Israel is a 'myth', not the holocaust. "a myth in the name of holocaust" is not saying the holocaust itself is the myth.

A similar concept is the mythology of the west in the USA, the outback in Australia, etc. That is, a concept of a life.

[geni]

I think he actually said that Israel is a 'myth', not the holocaust. "a myth in the name of holocaust" is not saying the holocaust itself is the myth.

A similar concept is the mythology of the west in the USA, the outback in Australia, etc. That is, a concept of a life.


They have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4527142.stm

[Euromutt]

Forty-five years too late. UN General Assembly resolution 273(III) is in effect Israel's birth certificate, signed by the international community. You can argue that the child is illegitimate, but disposing of it half a decade after it's been born would be murder.

By the same token, I don't recall Khomeini asking permission from his predominantly Sunni neighbors before creating a Shi'ite state in their midst.

[a_unique_person]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4527142.stm

The two translations contradict each other. If he is guilty of saying it, so be it, but which translation is correct?

[Zep]

I'm suspecting the meaning is lost a bit in translation, Geni. But even as reported, I still don't see it as saying that he said the Holocaust is a myth. Just that he contends they are making a myth out of a historical situation as justification for the ongoing existence of Israel. Perhaps, by way of example, like calling a stunning football loss a "huge tragedy".

[a_unique_person]

Forty-five years too late. UN General Assembly resolution 273(III) is in effect Israel's birth certificate, signed by the international community. You can argue that the child is illegitimate, but disposing of it half a decade after it's been born would be murder.

I agree.

[Skeptic]

I think he actually said that Israel is a 'myth', not the holocaust.

Oh, that's OK then.

It's only the living six million jews in israel he wants killed and expelled; he didn't actually insult the memory of the dead six millions jews Hitler killed and expelled.

Somehow I'm not reassured.

[Chaos]

Oh, that's OK then.

It's only the living six million jews in israel he wants killed and expelled; he didn't actually insult the memory of the dead six millions jews Hitler killed and expelled.

Somehow I'm not reassured.

Who said anything about "OK"?

May I ask you to restrict your reaction to what people actually post, not to what your fantasy attributes to these statements?

[Flo]

The two translations contradict each other. If he is guilty of saying it, so be it, but which translation is correct?


From the translations and the (generally horrified) reactions by Arab and Iranian speakers I've read and heard in the French media (here (http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=343699), for example) it looks like he actually said he denied the reality of the holocaust.

The sickness bequeathed by the west to the Muslim world (http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1666626,00.html), indeed. :(

[Darat]

Do we need anymore evidence before we conclude he is a mad man?

[Marc L]

From the article

Ahmadinejad said it was the Europeans who committed crimes against the Jews and they, the United States or Canada should give part of their land to the Jews to establish a state.


While I disagree with his goal, he does have a point here. It was the Germans (the Nazis) who committed the holocaust, not the Middle East. Granted, it's too late now to do anything about.

Before I get jumped on for being Anti-Semitic, let me say that I'm not arguing for or against there being a State of Israel, or where it should be made.

Marc

[Marc L]

Double post, sorry.

[CFLarsen]

Do we need anymore evidence before we conclude he is a mad man?
How long before they have nukes?

[zenith-nadir]

Do we need anymore evidence before we conclude he is a mad man?And sadly, there are millions who think just like him.

Gosh...if only Israel would finally be destroyed and then all would be right in the world.

Thursday, Nov. 13, 2003 5 p.m. EST (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2003/11/13/173504.shtml)

In a recent unpublished European Commission poll of 7,515 Europeans conducted by Taylor Nelson Sofres/EOS Gallup Europe, a majority of Europeans (74 percent in the tolerant Netherlands) named Israel as the biggest threat to world peace.

Israel is just ruining it for everyone. :rolleyes:

[a_unique_person]

Do we need anymore evidence before we conclude he is a mad man?

I have no problem with him being found guilty of what the evidence convicts him of. The evidence for this particular claim appears to suffer from conflicting translations. I am sure that a few more days will remove the ambiguity.

[Darat]

I have no problem with him being found guilty of what the evidence convicts him of. The evidence for this particular claim appears to suffer from conflicting translations. I am sure that a few more days will remove the ambiguity.

What about all his previous statements?

[Euromutt]

Are you nuts, Marc L? If Israel wasn't where it is now, where would western Europe get its avocadoes and grapefruit from?

And frankly, there's never been any love lost between the Arabs and the Persians, even before the Sunni/Shi'a schism. The existence of Israel (or lack thereof) simply does not affect Iran's interests in any material fashion. And hey, remember those TOW missiles Ollie North sold the Iranians back in the 1980s? Those came from Israeli stocks, which the US subsequently replenished. So you had the rather incongruous result that the Iranians were using anti-tank missiles with Hebrew markings against Iraqi (Arab) tanks. Still, the Hebrew didn't seem to bother the Iranians at the time.

[a_unique_person]

What about all his previous statements?

I was only commenting on this one. His call for "israel to be pushed into the sea" I disagreed with. You still have to find him guilty of the things he is guilty of. As to whether or not he is a nut, there are plenty of them around ruling other countries. He doesn't seem the full two bobs worth to me.

[Skeptic]

I'm suspecting the meaning is lost a bit in translation, Geni. But even as reported, I still don't see it as saying that he said the Holocaust is a myth. Just that he contends they are making a myth out of a historical situation as justification for the ongoing existence of Israel.

Which, curiously enough, is exactly the position of the liberal European intelligentia about israel.

Without going into details into why this view is, shall we say, not exactly accurate, doesn't the fact that European elite public opinion about israel agrees with that of the president of the world's largest Islamic theocracy, who had openly and repeatedly called for israel's destruction, tell us something about what elite European public opinion's worth?

(Of course, the selfsame european elites would be shocked and embarrased if they agreed substantially about some important issue with a really bad person, such as G. W. Bush...)

[Skeptic]

I was only commenting on this one. His call for "israel to be pushed into the sea" I disagreed with.

Well, not really. You're on record claiming the Arabs were justified in attempting to do just that in 1948.

[demon]

Mofaz: Israel must face Iran with solutions
'other than diplomatic'

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz on Friday spoke harshly against Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadenijad saying Israel must prepare solutions "other than diplomatic" in the face of Tehran's persistent advancement of its nuclear program.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/655943.html


As usual, Israel`s direct threats of violence don`t get any media condemnation.
Israel must prepare solutions "other than diplomatic" - surely the world media is not going to sit back and allow such incitement to violence from the direction of Israel, when they didn't sit back on the Iranian leader's speech suggesting that the occupying regime in Jerusalem should be wiped out only a few weeks ago?
Israel's words are certainly stronger than those recent words of Iran - and Israel has the military power and track record to back them up.


Here`s another article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1920074,00.html

One has only to imagine the tone of the article were the players reversed to see the hypocrisy of this report. There are also echoes, in comments about the international effort soon "having run its course", of US statements prior to invading Iraq. Note too that the fact Israel has a listening post in northern Iraq is mentioned without comment. Also the Osirak myth persists.

[Perforatu]

Which, curiously enough, is exactly the position of the liberal European intelligentia about israel.

Without going into details into why this view is, shall we say, not exactly accurate, doesn't the fact that European elite public opinion about israel agrees with that of the president of the world's largest Islamic theocracy, who had openly and repeatedly called for israel's destruction, tell us something about what elite European public opinion's worth?

(Of course, the selfsame european elites would be shocked and embarrased if they agreed substantially about some important issue with a really bad person, such as G. W. Bush...)
My curiosity is piqued by this statement. Even though I'm from the Netherlands, I'm not familiar with this particular opinion of the (liberal) European elite/intelligentsia.

Why is this? Maybe one European country's 'liberal elite/intelligentsia' are virtually unknown in another? Perhaps the 'liberal elite/intelligentsia' from one European country do not necessarily share the views of the other? Maybe the views aren't even strictly 'European', but shared by a number of American 'lower class/stupiditsia' as well?

Can you show me a few links or quotes or articles that prove this is indeed, as far as the western world is concerned, exclusively the opinion of all 'European elites/intelligentsia'?

[Dr Adequate]

And sadly, there are millions who think just like him.

Gosh...if only Israel would finally be destroyed and then all would be right in the world.
From your link:
Eldar also claims that simply saying the world's view of Israel is that the Jewish state poses a threat to world stability is not an anti-Semitic view: "Arguing it takes an anti-Semite to call the Israeli government's policies of 2003 a danger to world peace is a contemptible cheapening of the term anti-Semitism."

[LW]

Can you show me a few links or quotes or articles that prove this is indeed, as far as the western world is concerned, exclusively the opinion of all 'European elites/intelligentsia'?

I wish you good luck on your quest to get Skeptic support that particular statement. I tried it two or three times before I realised the futility of it.

[webfusion]

demon, if you can't see the difference between asking for the complete eradication of an entire nation, and an isolated raid against a military-value target (NATANZ, for instance), then it is small wonder you are confused by the overall situation in the MidEast, as evidenced by many of your postings here.

[Flo]

Without going into details into why this view is, shall we say, not exactly accurate, ...


Speaking about your view of the liberal European intelligentia .... :rolleyes:

[Dr Adequate]

European elite public opinion about israel agrees with that of the president of the world's largest Islamic theocracy, who had openly and repeatedly called for israel's destruction...
Please tell us which European elite agrees that Israel should be destroyed.

How do you identify this "elite"?

The normal method of deciding that you face a sinister elite of imaginary enemies involves hysteria and paranoia; but please tell me that you've found another method.

[Flo]

Please tell us which European elite agrees that Israel should be destroyed.

How do you identify this "elite"?

The normal method of deciding that you face a sinister elite of imaginary enemies involves hysteria and paranoia; but please tell me that you've found another method.


I suspect he was referring to Geni's

"they are making a myth out of a historical situation as justification for the ongoing existence of Israel."

but even pretending "European liberal elite" agrees on this bit is a big fat strawman.

[LW]

Please tell us which European elite agrees that Israel should be destroyed.

Several years ago, in a thread that has been purged from database Skeptic went even further claiming that: "European liberals want the death of all Jews".

That was the moment when I stopped taking his political views seriously.

[Edited to add: that thread was number 11522 but that thread number has been recycled and is now on completely different subject.]

[Chaos]

Speaking about your view of the liberal European intelligentia .... :rolleyes:

The day "Skeptic" posts an accurate assessment about anything European or anyone who disagrees with him will be the day the world comes to an end.

[Darat]

As admin: Polite request - keep to the topic under discussion not personalities.

Moderation questions moved to the appropriate Forum section.

[ImaginalDisc]

Which, curiously enough, is exactly the position of the liberal European intelligentia about israel.


Ok, I'll make the Hitler reference. Hitler was a vegetarian and was an outspoken critic of cosmetics.

However, I don't compare my sister to Hitler when she tries to switch to a vegetarian diet, and starts to use less make-up. Would you?

Heck, the white supremecists here are Holocaust deniers too, are you suggesting that they're joined at the cranium with Iranian supremacists?

[Mycroft]

As usual, Israel`s direct threats of violence don`t get any media condemnation.


Wow, isn't that turning the world on it's head.

Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons, the presidend of Iran claims Israel should be wiped off the map, yet you claim it's Israel making a direct threat of violence.

[Manny]

Heck, the white supremecists here are Holocaust deniers too, are you suggesting that they're joined at the cranium with Iranian supremacists?Syria, actually. (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP103505)

[ImaginalDisc]

Syria, actually. (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP103505)

Syria as well I gather, but point taken.

Holocaust deniers are a very scary form of woo.

[Skeptic]

Ok, I'll make the Hitler reference. Hitler was a vegetarian and was an outspoken critic of cosmetics.

However, I don't compare my sister to Hitler when she tries to switch to a vegetarian diet, and starts to use less make-up. Would you?

No; but if she wears funny clothes, you will tell her that she "dresses like a clown", while if she eats three big macs at one sitting you will tell her that she "eats like a pig".

This would hardly mean that you think your sister really is a clown or a pig, and I am not saying European intelligentia is the same as Muslim fanatics. But when your view of israeli history is the same as that of Muslims fanatics, something is wrong with your views, wouldn't you say?

[Perforatu]

No; but if she wears funny clothes, you will tell her that she "dresses like a clown", while if she eats three big macs at one sitting you will tell her that she "eats like a pig".

This would hardly mean that you think your sister really is a clown or a pig, and I am not saying European intelligentia is the same as Muslim fanatics. But when your view of israeli history is the same as that of Muslims fanatics, something is wrong with your views, wouldn't you say?
I'd agree, except I am far from convinced this actually is the view of the 'European intelligentsia'. I'm not even convinced the 'European intelligentsia', as you call it, is homogenous or connected enough to collectively arrive at this opinion. Living in the Netherlands, and being fairly up-to-date on world matters, you'd think I would have heard something about it.

I'm sure there's a few intelligentsia (who happen to be European) who share the view you describe, just as I'm sure there's stupiditsia and averagetsia on both sides of the Atlantic who share it. But as to your original statement - I'm still waiting for links, articles or evidence of any kind.

[jj]

Wow, isn't that turning the world on it's head.

Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons, the presidend of Iran claims Israel should be wiped off the map, yet you claim it's Israel making a direct threat of violence.

Well, they are, in self-defense. In response to a threat, in self defense, but yes, it is a threat of violence.

After all, if somebody comes after you with a loaded B29, you're not being peaceful by launching a half-dozen sidewinders (or whatever) at them. You are, on the other hand, engaging in self-defense. Sometimes self-defense has to be violent.

[jj]

Syria as well I gather, but point taken.

Holocaust deniers are a very scary form of woo.

Are they a form of woo, or are they a form of racist/somethingist?

[ImaginalDisc]

Are they a form of woo, or are they a form of racist/somethingist?

I had thought they were both. The conspiracy they suggest exists requires magical thinking to believe, modivates anti-semitism, and is derived from it.

[Cleon]

Are they a form of woo, or are they a form of racist/somethingist?

Theoretically, I think you can be a Holocaust denier without being a bigot. (Though I have yet to run across such a person.)

But I doubt you can be a Holocaust denier without being a woo.

In reality, it's usually a little of Column A and a little of Column B.

[Kerberos]

Which, curiously enough, is exactly the position of the liberal European intelligentia about israel.

Without going into details into why this view is, shall we say, not exactly accurate, doesn't the fact that European elite public opinion about israel agrees with that of the president of the world's largest Islamic theocracy, who had openly and repeatedly called for israel's destruction, tell us something about what elite European public opinion's worth?
Nop, it does tell us you're fond of guilt by association arguments though.

[Mycroft]

The two translations contradict each other. If he is guilty of saying it, so be it, but which translation is correct?


No they don't.

From the one you claim says Israel is the myth:

"Touring southeast Iran, Ahmadinejad said that if Europeans insist the Holocaust did happen, then it was they who were responsible and they should pay the price."

[Mycroft]

Well, they are, in self-defense. In response to a threat, in self defense, but yes, it is a threat of violence.

After all, if somebody comes after you with a loaded B29, you're not being peaceful by launching a half-dozen sidewinders (or whatever) at them. You are, on the other hand, engaging in self-defense. Sometimes self-defense has to be violent.

However it's important to note that a "threat" of violence in self-defense is very different from a "threat" that indicates an impending danger. That is to say, if you have a threat of violence in self-defense in response to statements and actions that indicate a threat that's an impending danger, it's the second one you need to worry about, not the first.

[Skeptic]

As usual, Israel`s direct threats of violence don`t get any media condemnation.

Yes, israel's direct threats against those who openly and repeatedly declared they will wipe it off the map with nuclear weapons don't get any media condemnation. Isn't that just awful?

I can't imagine what the cause of that could be--must be the jewi--, er, I mean zionis--, er, I mean "neo-con" control of the media (wink wink, nudge nudge). Or something.

Obviously, demon, you consider israel a very dangerous country... in the same sense as, as the old French song puts it,

Cet animal est tres mechant,
Quand on l'attaque il se defend.

Which J. Bronowski wittingly translated as:

This animal is very wicked,
it bites the foot that tries to kick it.

My only fear here is that is just words, and there would be no deeds, violent or otherwise, which would stop Iran from getting nukes.

[jj]

I had thought they were both. The conspiracy they suggest exists requires magical thinking to believe, modivates anti-semitism, and is derived from it.


I've met a bunch of them, netwise. A few of them seem frighteningly sincere, most of them seem, well, how to put this? Hmm..... Disingenious, perhaps, but it's very nearly not a strong enough word.

[jj]

However it's important to note that a "threat" of violence in self-defense is very different from a "threat" that indicates an impending danger. That is to say, if you have a threat of violence in self-defense in response to statements and actions that indicate a threat that's an impending danger, it's the second one you need to worry about, not the first.

Well, the point I'm making is that one can not idealize "peaceful", or entirely stigmatize "violent".

The world is not a nice place, sometimes violence in the name of self-defense is unavoidable.

I personally would worry about both of your examples, but in quite different fashions. One would concern me in terms of safety, the other in terms of the intent of the "impending danger" and how to disarm that.

[Zep]

Which, curiously enough, is exactly the position of the liberal European intelligentia about israel.

Without going into details into why this view is, shall we say, not exactly accurate, doesn't the fact that European elite public opinion about israel agrees with that of the president of the world's largest Islamic theocracy, who had openly and repeatedly called for israel's destruction, tell us something about what elite European public opinion's worth?

(Of course, the selfsame european elites would be shocked and embarrased if they agreed substantially about some important issue with a really bad person, such as G. W. Bush...)I didn't agree with his opinion either way. Personally, I suspect he was just pandering to a certain crowd. Either that, or he's plain cuckoo.

[Mycroft]

The world is not a nice place, sometimes violence in the name of self-defense is unavoidable.

It seems we agree.

[ImaginalDisc]

It seems we agree.

I agree as well. I also think it is unfortunate that violence is often carried out in the name of self-defense, and in name only.

[zenith-nadir]

I have no problem with him being found guilty of what the evidence convicts him of. The evidence for this particular claim appears to suffer from conflicting translations. I am sure that a few more days will remove the ambiguity.

Here you go.

TEHRAN, Iran Dec 14, 2005 (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1406599&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312)

Iran's hard-line president lashed out with a new outburst at Israel on Wednesday, calling the Nazi Holocaust a "myth" used as a pretext for carving out a Jewish state in the heart of the Muslim world.

Last week, he expressed doubt about Nazi Germany's slaughter of 6 million European Jews during World War II, raising a new storm of criticism. On Wednesday, he went a step further and said for the first time that he didn't believe the Holocaust happened.

"Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets," Ahmadinejad told thousands of people in Zahedan.

[Grammatron]

Do you think he wants to start a war?

[ImaginalDisc]

Demonizing the enemy's usually done before a war, but it could just be sabre rattling, or even just plain rascism.

[Hutch]

From Zenith-Nadir:

"Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust, and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets," Ahmadinejad told thousands of people in Zahedan.

Ok, if this is the actual translation (and I've love to see it in the original arabic and let kitten or garrette have a go at it) then I can see where AUP is coming from.

'Created a myth' is what "they" (presumably the Euro-Israel axis) have done. The question is if the myth is the Holocaust, or that the State of Isreal is a mythical entity brought about 'in the name of Holocaust." Either way it's hardly diplomatic.

Having spent several years in the Mideast, AUP, and having read more than a few letters translated from Arabic to English, IMHO ZN is correct, he was considering the Holocaust a Myth. But translations are always tricky.

Still, the guy is either a puppet for his Mad Mullah masters, or several ingrediants shy of a Shwarma. On that I belive we have unaminity.

[jj]

Still, the guy is either a puppet for his Mad Mullah masters, or several ingrediants shy of a Shwarma. On that I belive we have unaminity.


You know, if you said "or both", we'd all be on the same side of this one, I think. That might be a new record. :)

Btw, what's a shwarma?

[Cleon]

From Zenith-Nadir:

Ok, if this is the actual translation (and I've love to see it in the original arabic and let kitten or garrette have a go at it) then I can see where AUP is coming from.


That would be difficult, as the original was in Farsi, not Arabic. ;)


(Iranians are, for the most part, not Arabs and do not speak Arabic natively.)

[Euromutt]

Ok, if this is the actual translation (and I've love to see it in the original arabic and let kitten or garrette have a go at it) then I can see where AUP is coming from.Just a minor point: Iranians speak Farsi, not Arabic. Well, okay, most of them speak Arabic as well as a result of Koran study, but they won't use it if they can avoid it.

[Cleon]

Btw, what's a shwarma?

Shwarma is a very yummy Arab sandwich-type thing. It's served in pita like falafel, but it's actually meat; usually lamb, chicken, or beef, seasoned and cooked.

If you have a middle eastern restaurant nearby that serves it, try some. Like I said--very yummy.

[Hutch]

Btw, what's a shwarma?

A type of fast food found in the Middle East. In the UAE there were shwarma stands everywhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shwarma


And to Language Mavens CLeon and Euromutt...:hit: :D ;)

[Melendwyr]

It's only the living six million jews in israel he wants killed and expelled; he didn't actually insult the memory of the dead six millions jews Hitler killed and expelled. Ten million people. Why can't anyone get the damn atrocity straight?!

[a_unique_person]

From Zenith-Nadir:



Ok, if this is the actual translation (and I've love to see it in the original arabic and let kitten or garrette have a go at it) then I can see where AUP is coming from.

'Created a myth' is what "they" (presumably the Euro-Israel axis) have done. The question is if the myth is the Holocaust, or that the State of Isreal is a mythical entity brought about 'in the name of Holocaust." Either way it's hardly diplomatic.

Having spent several years in the Mideast, AUP, and having read more than a few letters translated from Arabic to English, IMHO ZN is correct, he was considering the Holocaust a Myth. But translations are always tricky.

Still, the guy is either a puppet for his Mad Mullah masters, or several ingrediants shy of a Shwarma. On that I belive we have unaminity.

IIRC, he is not a puppet of the Mad Mullahs, but his own form of populist madness.

[a_unique_person]

I was only commenting on this one. His call for "israel to be pushed into the sea" I disagreed with.

Well, not really. You're on record claiming the Arabs were justified in attempting to do just that in 1948.

Yes, really.

[Skeptic]

Another comment about this, from the "Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1666871,00.html

The pertinent point is:

Suddenly, the usual apologetics won't work. No one can say Iran's president was really complaining about Israel or Zionism, rather than Jews. No one can say he was talking about the west's colonial crimes. He was peddling, instead, one of the defining tropes of the racist hard right: Holocaust denial. It is a stance that seeks to deny Jews their history, their suffering, almost their very being. Like denying that African-Americans were ever slaves, it is a move made by those who wish only harm.

In this light, Ahmadinejad's previous musings look rather different. When, in October, he stood beneath a banner that promised "A world without Zionism" and called for Israel to be "wiped off the map", many Jews felt a chill at what seemed an annihilationist fantasy. Cooler heads said no, this was merely the hyperbolic style of the region, deployed to press a robust anti-Zionist rather than anti-semitic case. What he wanted, they explained patiently, was a world without Zionism, not a world without Jews.

Well, now I'm done with the charitable explanations.

Well, this is all very well, and he is quite right. But what the author of this column, Jonathan Freedland, is freely admitting, is that until now he was taking seriously the chariable explanations--"it's just anti-zionism", "it's just anti-colonialism", "it's just for internal consumption", "it's because of the occupation", etc., etc. NOW he finds out that, as he says later, he "can no longer deny" that "the virus of antisemitism had infected the Muslim world"?

Hellllllllllllllloooooooooooo???? Anybody home? Where has he been for the last, oh, 100 years?

Wake up, folks. All those are merely excuses. When you defend "Palestinian Liberation" or "Iranian anti-Colonialism" or whatever the euphemism is, you are defending genocidal Islamic antisemitism. Don't like it? Tough.

[Mycroft]

At least Jonathan Freedland came to that realization. There are plenty of die-hards willing to continue with the apologetics and rationalizations.

[Skeptic]

At least Jonathan Freedland came to that realization. There are plenty of die-hards willing to continue with the apologetics and rationalizations.

...and the blaming of the jews. I mean, it's a bit like this:

IDIOT: "Now, we agree, I supported you because you want peace and your rights, right?"
AFARAT & CO.: "Actually, we want a second holocaust. But thanks for the support, sucker."
I: "You mean you just want to kill the 'zionists', right? We all agree it's OK to kill all of them, but we're not antisemitic, are we?"
A: "Nope. That's an excuse. We really just hate the jews. It's a Jihad against them. Read the Hamas charter, the Iranian leader's speeches, the Saudi press, and..."
I: "Stop it! You are NOT an antisemite! I ORDER you!"
A: "Bye, sucker. Oh, and thanks for all that tax money your govenrment gave us--it really helped us buy lots of guns for jew-killing."

...I mean, wouldn't you feel like a damn fool for having supported a murderous thug whose goal is genocide for so long, who--in addition--made it crystal clear that that is his goal from the start? (You must admit that they, like Hitler, gave us all fair warning--but the fools wouldn't listen.)

It's a bit like getting married and finding out your spouse is really a vampire, and, what's worse, that she told you so but you married her anyway because you chose not to believer her for no better reason than you not wanting it to be true.

To stop feeling a fool, which you richly deserve, there are two ways:

First, claim that despite everything, they don't really mean it.

Second, find anything and everything you can that is bad with the jews (*cough* *cough* "zionists" *cough* "neo-cons" wink wink, nudge nudge) to make your stupidity less painful by convincing yourself that, after all, they had it coming, so you weren't really supporting an evil genocidal thugocracy but a "liberation movement".

Both these methods are employed continously by the idiots in this forum, who shall remain unnamed...

[zenith-nadir]

I'll tell ya what, while some of you debate the difference between Farsi and Arabic and how Mahmoud Ahmadinejad may have been "unfairly" misquoted by us Westerners I shall look into his actions. For actions speak louder than words. Right?

Islamic Republic News Agency (IRNA) (http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-236/0512143109174339.htm)

Dubai, Dec 14, IRNA - An Arab writer, Ghazi Abu Daqa, said that the Iranian people voted to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in May presidential election based on their knowledge about and acquaintance with him and praised the president's courage and logic.

In his article at the Wednesday issue of the United Arab Emirate's daily `Al-Khaleej', he added that Ahmadinejad's logic is very effective in awakening those consciences which have been under the spell of seasonal sleep for several years.

Turning to the president's recent remarks on transfer of Israel to Europe, the writer wrote, "The Iranian president has nothing against the followers of Judaism, since they are represented in the Islamic Consultative Assembly (Majlis) and all Jews enjoy rights equal to other Iranian citizens. Gosh...I am warm and fuzzy all over that President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's "logic is awakening consciences" and that he has "nothing against the followers of Judaism".

But enough praising President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, what's he up to these days other than being unfairly misquoted by us Westerners.

Islamic Republic News Agency (IRNA) (http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-236/0512125115235257.htm)

Tehran, Dec 12, IRNA - President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad here on Monday conferred with the leader of Palestinian resistance movement Hamas, Khalid Mashal. According to a report by Presidential Office Media Department, President Ahmadinejad during the meeting stressing that Palestine issue is related to the entire Islamic Ummah (nation) reiterated, "We are all obliged to heed our religious and divine responsibilities in offering services to the Palestinian movement."

The president noted out, "Resistance is the secret for embracing victory and the main ideal of the Islamic World is the liberation of the entire land of Palestine, the repatriation of all Palestinian refugees to their motherland, and the establishment of a popular political system in Palestine."

Khalid Mashal, too, said during the meeting, "The Palestinian nation, Hamas movement and the Islamic World appreciate the stands adopted by the Islamic Republic of Iran against the usurper regime of Israel and are proud of those stands that are serving the interests of the Islamic nations and the Islamic World." Ok....so if I take that at face value, who is Hamas?

Hamas Covenant 1988 (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm)


Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.
The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.
In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.
In their Nazi treatment, the Jews made no exception for women or children. Their policy of striking fear in the heart is meant for all.
Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."
Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews.
{emphasis mine}

That is who Hamas is, that is who Khalid Mashal represents and that is who President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad supports, when he's not denying the holocaust and asking for Israel to be moved to Europe that is. :rolleyes:

{edited to add}

15/12/2005 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051215/wl_mideast_afp/iranmideasthamasisrael_051215115052)

TEHRAN (AFP) - Radical Palestinian group Hamas vowed to step up attacks against
Israel if the Jewish state takes military action against Iran, and praised Iran's president for his "courageous" anti-Israeli outbursts.

"Just as Islamic Iran defends the rights of the Palestinians, we defend the rights of Islamic Iran. We are part of a united front against the enemies of Islam," Hamas political chief Khaled Meshaal told reporters in the Iranian capital.

"We congratulate Iran for its position in the Islamic world and in particular the statements of the supreme leader (Ayatollah Ali Khamenei) and President Ahmadinejad," said Meshaal, who is based in Damascus and has been in Iran since Tuesday.

"What Iranian officials say may not please some people, but these are just courageous declarations," he asserted.

We now return you to the "Ahmadinejad may have been misquoted" debate.... ;)

[zenith-nadir]

Oh, by the way...very few seem to feel President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was misquoted. Just an FYI.

Associated Press (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051215/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_holocaust_18)

Wed Dec 14, 2005 - TEHRAN, Iran - Iran's hard-line president lashed out with a new outburst at Israel on Wednesday, calling the Nazi Holocaust a "myth" used as a pretext for carving out a Jewish state in the heart of the Muslim world.

In unusually strong comments, a top European Union official said Iranians "do not have the president, or the regime, they deserve."

"It calls our attention to the real danger of that regime having an atomic bomb," said the president of the EU's administrative body, Jose Manuel Barroso.Or...

EU Summit to Address Ahmadinejad Comments (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051215/ap_on_re_mi_ea/eu_iran_1)

Thur Dec 15, 2005 - BERLIN - European Union leaders will address the Iranian president's denial of the Holocaust as a "myth," Germany's foreign minister said Thursday, warning that patience is running out with Tehran. The EU summit beginning Thursday in Brussels will address Ahmadinejad's statements "also at our urging," Steinmeier said in the German parliament.

"I say again: the government in Tehran must understand that the patience of the international community is not endless," Steinmeier said.

[Skeptic]

It is also deeply perverse that some people here are so deeply, deeply concerned lest this sack of human excrement be misquoted--"he just said israel is a myth, not the holocaust!"--as if makes the least amount of difference, the "correct" version being nearly as bad, and both being an example of genocidal antisemitic paranoia.

The excuse is that they're not defending him, merely making sure he is quoted correcly for "objectivity"'s sake. This excuse would sound a bit more convincing if it didn't come with a recipocal willingness to always automatically believe the absolute worst about anything israel and/or the USA and/or G. W. Bush said or did.

The truth here, some people here simply have an automatic desire to defend, excuse, or minimize anything bad the Islamist thugs do if at all possible, while they have an automatic desire to blame, accuse, or maximize anything bad israel or the USA do if at all possible.

Their sympathies, behind the thin veil of "concern for objectivity", are rather clear.

[zenith-nadir]

The plot sickens.

Dec 15, 2005 (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1408343&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312)

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia - Malaysia's former prime minister accused the U.S. Thursday of scheming to invade Iran and Syria, and said the Iranian president's recent statements against Israel are providing Washington the excuse.So the U.S. is really the evil one...out to use the Iranian president's recent statements in it's scheming to invade Iran and Syria. I get it now....it's all so clear.

Dec 15, 2005 (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1408343&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312) (continued)

Mahathir Mohamad, Malaysia's former longtime leader, himself raised an international outcry when shortly before leaving office last year he said in an Oct. 16 speech that "Jews rule the world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them."

He said Ahmadinejad's call to wipe out Israel from the map of the world has provided "additional grounds for aggression" for Washington.So the U.S. is really the evil one...out to use the Iranian president's recent statements as "additional grounds for aggression". I get it now....it's all becoming so clear. I sure am glad Mahathir Mohamad & President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are around to expose the "truth".

Oooopps...I forgot to include this from the link:

Dec 15, 2005 (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1408343&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312) (continued)

Opening a three-day global peace forum in Kuala Lumpur, Mahathir charged that....:rolleyes:

[Beerina]

And sadly, there are millions who think just like him.

Gosh...if only Israel would finally be destroyed and then all would be right in the world.

In a recent unpublished European Commission poll of 7,515 Europeans conducted by Taylor Nelson Sofres/EOS Gallup Europe, a majority of Europeans (74 percent in the tolerant Netherlands) named Israel as the biggest threat to world peace.

Israel is just ruining it for everyone. :rolleyes:

It's like saying a murder victim, by carring money in her purse, is causing problems because a psychopath stabs her and takes her money.

Blame the murder victim!

We know, scientifically, how politicians lead the masses on hateful cruscades against small minorities -- authorize me the power to clobber them and I'll make your lives better, I promise!

This is a well-understood technique. Indeed, this particular dynamic has been well-understood long before there was science.

And yet, masses, supposedly intelligent, and in free countries, fall right into it all over again. This time on a continental scale. Two and a half continents, so far.

"If only that power hungry politician down there in Iran got what he wanted, then all the masses he's leading on hatefilled cruscades will stop blowing us up. What's Israel to us anyway?"

Yes, I'm looking at you guys, 74% of Europeans.

[Manny]

It's on days like this that I wish everyone at the State Department were a John Bolton clone. Instead of saying "we're deeply concerned" or whatever some senior person at State should say, "Hey, what a great idea! We'll move Israel to the Sudetenland and everyone will be happy."

[negativ]

Do we need anymore evidence before we conclude he is a mad man?

But it's only fair that Iran be allowed to have nukes, because


DUBYUH SI TEH EVAL CHIMPY MCHALLIBURTON BU$HITLER!!!!!!!1111



But don't just take my word for it!
zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/

[plindboe]

And sadly, there are millions who think just like him.

Gosh...if only Israel would finally be destroyed and then all would be right in the world.


Thursday, Nov. 13, 2003 5 p.m. EST

In a recent unpublished European Commission poll of 7,515 Europeans conducted by Taylor Nelson Sofres/EOS Gallup Europe, a majority of Europeans (74 percent in the tolerant Netherlands) named Israel as the biggest threat to world peace.

Israel is just ruining it for everyone. :rolleyes:

I'd probably have had to answer Israel too if I had participated in such a sucky poll, as I consider the israeli/palestinian conflict to be fueling a potential future world war between the west and the middle east. That doesn't mean that I have anything against jews or the existance of Israel, or that I agree with the iranian looney in charge. In short, your linkage between "millions who think just like him" and that stupid poll is a strawman. Try some decent arguments instead, usually works better on a skeptics board.

[LW]

Yes, I'm looking at you guys, 74% of Europeans.

I hope this is not the same poll whose flaws were first discussed here two years ago (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=12933)?

[ZeeGerman]

I hope this is not the same poll whose flaws were first discussed here two years ago (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=12933)?


You beat me to it. I think it is. But having cleared the topic back then doesn't stop ZN from using that old straw to stuff a new man, does it?

Zee

[Ed]

Do you think he wants to start a war?

Yes. I would not be surprised if he sees himself as the Mahdi.

[Ed]

It's on days like this that I wish everyone at the State Department were a John Bolton clone. Instead of saying "we're deeply concerned" or whatever some senior person at State should say, "Hey, what a great idea! We'll move Israel to the Sudetenland and everyone will be happy."

The Dakodas, Manny, the Dakotas. We can give them a two fer.

[zenith-nadir]

Try some decent arguments instead, usually works better on a skeptics board.I hope this is not the same poll whose flaws were first discussed here two years ago (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=12933)?You beat me to it. I think it is. But having cleared the topic back then doesn't stop ZN from using that old straw to stuff a new man, does it?

ZeeI'll tell ya what guys. Forget the eeeevil European poll you are attacking. (Just an FYI I referenced it because many people polled felt Israel is "a threat to world peace" when I feel folks like President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are the real threat to world peace.)

I hereby relinquish all claims to the eeevil poll.

Now that that poll is out of the way let's stick with my other posts in this thread. How do guys feel about what President Mahmoud "the holocaust was a hoax" Ahmadinejad said or what Mahathir "Jews rule the world by proxy" Mohamad said?

[LW]

I hereby relinquish all claims to the eeevil poll.

Thank you.

Now that that poll is out of the way let's stick with my other posts in this thread. How do guys feel about what President Mahmoud "the holocaust was a hoax" Ahmadinejad said or what Mahathir "Jews rule the world by proxy" Mohamad said?

Well, if the translations are correct (and I think that it is more likely than not), then they are either very uneducated or rabid anti-semites, or both.

[zenith-nadir]

Well, if the translations are correct (and I think that it is more likely than not), Judging by the reaction of the president of the EU's administrative body, Jose Manuel Barroso and Germany's foreign minister, whom I quoted earlier, I would say the translation is not in question,.. as I am sure Germany and the EU's administrative body have some fine translators at their disposal. ;)

then they are either very uneducated or rabid anti-semites, or both.And they are not alone. Saddam had the same feelings, Assad surely does, who knows whats in the minds of the Saudis but we do know in the past that:

Saudi imams (prayer leaders) have been praising suicide bombers as martyrs engaged in a legitimate fight to end the Israeli occupation of Arab land.

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1950856.stm)

Let's close this telethon with a general prayer to curse the Israelis, the oppressors, and Zionism. And we pray for the Muslims, the Palestinians and the Mujahedin. (from a Saudi Arabian telethon)

CNN (http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0204/12/bn.17.html)

Sadly President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has many rabid anti-semite comrades and colleagues.

[Perforatu]

Yes, I'm looking at you guys, 74% of Europeans.
That's 74% of Dutch people polled, not Europeans - and don't think I'm not ashamed of my fellow countrymen for voting the way they did, crappy poll or not.

Now that that poll is out of the way let's stick with my other posts in this thread. How do guys feel about what President Mahmoud "the holocaust was a hoax" Ahmadinejad said or what Mahathir "Jews rule the world by proxy" Mohamad said?
Fairly typical anti-semitic propaganda. He's talking the talk but I don't think he's ready to walk the walk - not yet, at least. Still, he knows it's scoring him more brownie points with the extremists.

[Molinaro]

Mofaz: Israel must face Iran with solutions
'other than diplomatic'

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz on Friday spoke harshly against Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadenijad saying Israel must prepare solutions "other than diplomatic" in the face of Tehran's persistent advancement of its nuclear program.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/655943.html


As usual, Israel`s direct threats of violence don`t get any media condemnation.
Israel must prepare solutions "other than diplomatic" - surely the world media is not going to sit back and allow such incitement to violence from the direction of Israel, when they didn't sit back on the Iranian leader's speech suggesting that the occupying regime in Jerusalem should be wiped out only a few weeks ago?
Israel's words are certainly stronger than those recent words of Iran - and Israel has the military power and track record to back them up.


Here`s another article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1920074,00.html

One has only to imagine the tone of the article were the players reversed to see the hypocrisy of this report. There are also echoes, in comments about the international effort soon "having run its course", of US statements prior to invading Iraq. Note too that the fact Israel has a listening post in northern Iraq is mentioned without comment. Also the Osirak myth persists.


Since when is "other than diplomatic" equal to "direct threat of violence"?

Your post loses all cridibility by taking one possible meaning and running with it to the extreme.

[plindboe]

I'll tell ya what guys. Forget the eeeevil European poll you are attacking. (Just an FYI I referenced it because many people polled felt Israel is "a threat to world peace" when I feel folks like President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are the real threat to world peace.)

I hereby relinquish all claims to the eeevil poll.

"eeevil poll"? Huh? It's just the standard stupid poll, and alas fanatics everywhere use such kind of curious results for their own purpose. Reminds me of woos using Schwartz or Sheldrake studies to justify their idiocy. Some people forget all about quality of evidence when their convictions are strong enough.



Now that that poll is out of the way let's stick with my other posts in this thread. How do guys feel about what President Mahmoud "the holocaust was a hoax" Ahmadinejad said or what Mahathir "Jews rule the world by proxy" Mohamad said?

I think my position was made clear when I referred to the iranian leader as a looney.