Would a challenge be accepted without the million dollar prize?

[toddjh]

Like I imagine many others here have, I've been corresponding with someone who claims to have paranormal abilities. I've been encouraging him to apply for the JREF challenge, and, as expected, he keeps coming up with excuse after excuse: Randi is a fraud, the test is rigged, etc.

I think I've gradually worn him down on those points, and now, as expected, he says he refuses to apply for the challenge because receiving the million dollars would be profiting from his talent and that would be "bad karma" (no explanation was given, of course, for why profiting from one's talent is wrong). I've tried the usual lines about how the money could be donated or used to educate people about his abilities, but to no avail.

So my question is this: would an application be accepted if it specifically requested that the million dollar prize be excluded? I can't imagine why not, but I wanted to double check before suggesting that to him. Of course, he'll just come up with some other excuse after that...

Thanks!
Jeremy

[Complexity]

I would hope that if someone won the challenge they would be forced to accept the million dollars.

This, however, is obviously a question for Kramer and should be addressed directly to him, not to the forum.

[Metullus]

Since the person who wins the challenge can do anything he/she wants with the money I don't see what the problem is - your friend need only not accept the prize when it is offered. There is nothing in the Callenge Rules that obilgates the applicant to accept the money if won. JREF would likely not care if this is stated up front; I can picture KRAMER shrugging and saying "we don't care, apply and be done with it."

[StoatBringer]

I volunteer to accept the money on his behalf.

[Metullus]

I volunteer to accept the money on his behalf.
Are you ceratin you can handle all the karmic baggage that goes with it?

[StoatBringer]

That's the awful risk I'll just have to take.

BUT SOMEONE'S GOT TO DO IT!

[eri]

I have a charm to ward off bad karma, Stoat. I'll sell it to you for $500,000.

[SpaceFluffer]

Using your special gift to obtain $1,000,000 and give it to charity would be 'bad karma'??!

[toddjh]

Using your special gift to obtain $1,000,000 and give it to charity would be 'bad karma'??!

Apparently the mere fact that something as base as money is involved in any way is enough to curse the whole thing.

Jeremy

[Garrette]

Only if it's skeptic money.

Commercial money like from HBO is okay. Just ask Gary Schwartz or John Edward.

I suspect that even money from Montel Williams is okay.

There's probably a guide book somewhere.

[Metullus]

Apparently the mere fact that something as base as money is involved in any way is enough to curse the whole thing.

Jeremy
He could take the prize in bonds. Tha would take money out of the equation.

[petre]

Or you could offer him a personal challenge yourself. Say you simply want to create a repeatable demonstration of the ability. You probably already know what his answer is likely to be.

[toddjh]

Or you could offer him a personal challenge yourself. Say you simply want to create a repeatable demonstration of the ability. You probably already know what his answer is likely to be.

Yeah, but the JREF challenge has a certain stature. I pointed out that passing the challenge would win him an awful lot of converts in the skeptical community, and he seemed intrigued by the idea.

It's kinda weird. He seems half-fraudulent and half-sincere. Very weird combination.

His claim, by the way, is the ability to recognize homosexuality by examining a person's posture in a photograph. Now that I hear it without all his accompanying talk about energy fields and such, I'm not sure it would actually qualify as paranormal. Even if it is, coming up with a valid protocol would be a challenge, but I bet someone could come up with something.

Jeremy

[gtc]

Your suggestion gives me a very unfortunate mental image of the connection betwen posture and orientation. I was going to say that I can't help thinking that thte proposal could go either way, but I realised it might be seen as a bad pun.

[Beleth]

Anyone can make a challenge.

Randi backs up his challenge with a million dollars. That shows he's dead serious about this thing.

If someone isn't as dead serious about the challenge as Randi is, then they shouldn't take the challenge, and they usually know they shouldn't take the challenge, and so to save face they come up with BS excuses like this bad-karma one. To which the answer will always be "You could just donate it to the charity of your choice."

Nope. The only way to save face is to take the challenge and win.

[Mr. Scott]

If I won the challenge and didn't want, didn't need, or felt guilty about receiving the money, I'd donate it to the JREF so they could keep the challenge alive.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

If I won the challenge and didn't want, didn't need, or felt guilty about receiving the money, I'd donate it to the JREF so they could keep the challenge alive.

Yes, but if you won the challenge you would prove that the supernatural exists and there would be no further need for the challenge.

[logical muse]

Well, it would prove one aspect of the paranormal, not all of it. I guess you could argue that photographic gaydar is based on the same principles as talking to the dead and magic audio chips and x-ray vision, but I'd still like demonstrations of each before accepting them all.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Yeah, but the JREF challenge has a certain stature. I pointed out that passing the challenge would win him an awful lot of converts in the skeptical community, and he seemed intrigued by the idea.

It's kinda weird. He seems half-fraudulent and half-sincere. Very weird combination.

His claim, by the way, is the ability to recognize homosexuality by examining a person's posture in a photograph. Now that I hear it without all his accompanying talk about energy fields and such, I'm not sure it would actually qualify as paranormal. Even if it is, coming up with a valid protocol would be a challenge, but I bet someone could come up with something.

JeremyYou can win the challenge and refuse the bucks. I don't think JREF will refuse to pay the million, even if you say you don't want it. It would just be fodder. Its like the Seinfeld episode where he doesn't cash his poor gramma's birthday checks. Once won, the prize will always be offered but no one has to accept.

And there ain't no chance on the gaydar 'paranormal' thing-a-ma-jig. That's just a matter of determining that gays usually stand such-and-such and straights usually pose so-and-so. Any test would only prove that homosexuals tend to pose one way, and heterosexuals tend to pose another way. That would be normal. Where's the paranormal bit? :boggled:

[StoatBringer]

I have a charm to ward off bad karma, Stoat. I'll sell it to you for $500,000.

I should probably take two, just to be safe.

[William Smith]

Yes, but if you won the challenge you would prove that the supernatural exists and there would be no further need for the challenge.

Perhaps there would.

Because one single Challenge victory will only prove that:

at THIS particular time
by THIS particular person
at THIS particular location
THIS particular ability, phenomenon, etc.

exists reproducably. Speaking in scientific terms.



Randi himself said/wrote after the Achau Nguyen Test:

"Let us remember not to damage this work by claiming that Achau was shown not to have the power he claimed to have; it was only shown that on this occasion, under the given circumstances, he was not able to perform as he had expected to."

And vice versa.

[William Smith]

...
His claim, by the way, is the ability to recognize homosexuality by examining a person's posture in a photograph. Now that I hear it without all his accompanying talk about energy fields and such, I'm not sure it would actually qualify as paranormal.
...



Doesn't seem paranormal to me - but quite ignorant.

I live a country where about 66 years ago several million human beings received inhumane treatment because of their "race" and therefore, their looks: Huge noses, dark hair, big chins and yes: posture.

The same country held homosexuality legally illegal until 19freakin69.

He claims to have "gaydar"?

Use it wisely.
Enjoy sensual stimulation. Get your bleep bleeped. Bleep your bleeping brain out. Bleep bleeps like there's no tomorrow. Have 20 bleeps bleep bleep all over your bleep. Enjoy.



Does this make someone else a little uncomfortable, too?

[Flange Desire]

Does this make someone else a little uncomfortable, too?

Only a bit uncomfortable, and only at first.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

Only a bit uncomfortable, and only at first.

If you live in Melbourne you can get used to anything, right? ;) :)

[William Smith]

If you live in Melbourne you can get used to anything, right? ;) :)

Ah, those Australians... :) ;)



When I asked "Does this make someone else a little uncomfortable, too?" in my previous post I meant to refer to the "gaydar" claim of toddjh's friend - not to the bleeping part of course.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Define karma.

~~ Paul

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

Does anyone else find it absolutely hilarious that the guy is going on not wanting to profit from his incredible gift, and it turns out to be "gaydar"?

The world is a strange and amusing place, isn't it?

[William Smith]

...
The world is a strange and amusing place, isn't it?

Very much so.
But what else would one expect from a planet inhabited by several billion psychotic apes?




Toddjh, I propose your friend does this test I mentioned in another thread:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1225329#post1225329

He most certainly will not have to deal with collecting a million dollars.

[drfrank]

His claim, by the way, is the ability to recognize homosexuality by examining a person's posture in a photograph. Now that I hear it without all his accompanying talk about energy fields and such, I'm not sure it would actually qualify as paranormal. Even if it is, coming up with a valid protocol would be a challenge, but I bet someone could come up with something.

Mmm... energy fields in a photograph: sympathetic magic at its best.

So, could he successfully identify which of the Village People was/were gay without any prior knowledge? ;) If he doesn't know, watching the video to YMCA would be quite an amusing test. Horribly unscientific, obviously, but funny :D

Although my amazing predictive powers tell me that if he were wrong on any test he'd use an excuse like "well, he's actually quite gay but pretends to be straight".

[CFLarsen]

Like I imagine many others here have, I've been corresponding with someone who claims to have paranormal abilities. I've been encouraging him to apply for the JREF challenge, and, as expected, he keeps coming up with excuse after excuse: Randi is a fraud, the test is rigged, etc.

I think I've gradually worn him down on those points, and now, as expected, he says he refuses to apply for the challenge because receiving the million dollars would be profiting from his talent and that would be "bad karma" (no explanation was given, of course, for why profiting from one's talent is wrong). I've tried the usual lines about how the money could be donated or used to educate people about his abilities, but to no avail.

Next time, go here. (http://www.skepticreport.com/tools/topjref.htm)