Vladimir Sivitsky : Ideomotor effect, transpersonal psychology and Aster.

[Aster]

Sivitsky: "Try to use double blind check on any result of psychoanalysis and you receive negative result. But does that mean that psychoanalysis is not scientific?"
The following is a letter of introduction to this forum from mr. Vladimir Sivitsky, PhD., from Minsk, Belarus. Sivitsky asked me to place his letter on this website on his behalf.

Rgds.,
Aster.

http://www.aster-media.nl/3.jpg

Dear ladies and sirs!

Probably, I was late take part in a discussion, but it is better later, than never. Aster has informed me, that there is adiscussion of a problem, but I could join just now. My English not so good and I use by the program-interpreter too, but I hope, you will understand everything, that I have written.; -)

I am Vladimir Sivitsky and almost two years cooperate with Aster in research of the ideomotoric (IM) drawing. First, accept my congratulations for your tactfulness and patience in discussion. In Russian sceptics forum it is smaller. Secondly, I am surprised, that me have not asked about our research, though have found homepage of our institute and even the information on me. But if not have asked, I shall tell.; -) In more details about all it is written in my book, which soon will printed in Minsk. Unfortunately, the time of translation of book on English while is not known.

It is a little the information on me (it almost advertising, but I think, that it is necessary to tell about it). I - sports psychologist, work with ideomotorics more than 10 years. The my doctor's dissertation (at us it refers to as the candidate of sciences) I defended in Moscow (1995) and Kiev (1997). I the member of a Society of the Psychologists of Ukraine, Federation of the Sport Psychologists of the ountries former USSR, since december of the last year I the member of the International Academy of Psychological Sciences, which unite the psychologists more than 40 countries of the world.

Five years I live and I work in Minsk, in the International Humanitarian & Economic Institute, where a head of a chair of the psychology department. I have some copyright certificates on the computer diagnostic programs, two books, some tens articles and are a lot of the friends in world sports psychology.

My scientific interests wide, as I headed by many research works of my students and teachers. But frequently they result in one problem - change of a condition of consciousness. Here some situations, where we investigate these phenomena: preparation of the sportsman for competitions and setting a record, man in an extreme situation (accident, terrorist act), alcoholic or narcotic intoxication, trance in psychotherapy, psychoregulation, art or
fight, holotropic and free breath, meditation, computer game etc.

IM-drawing
IM-drawing is typical behaviour in a trance condition. The physiology of IM- action was research Ivan Pavlov, Nikolai Bernshtein, Petr Anochin and many others. The known data transformed a problem to the creation of images in consciousness (subconsciousness), which are then IM-drawn. It has become
completely obvious after study of a video of Aster's work.

Why carry out experiments, when the result is known in advance? By the way, I have video of classical experiments with a framework and another extrasence, when I carried out a role of the sceptic for my students; -)

My dialogue with our sceptics allows me to make such conclusion -you is scientific explain the people that it seems supernatural. It is the large and difficult work, the people should be grateful to you for it. But the known scientific methods of an objective science not always can be used in other directions. Try to use double blind check on any result of psychoanalysis and you receive negative result. Whether means it, what the psychoanalysis is no scientific? The Stanislav Grof's researches are very seriously confirmed by the documents of experiments, but his conclusions are similar to a fantasy more. I believe the large future projective and transpersonal psychology and I think, that IM-figures just from this area. The works of Grof, Ken Willber, Karl Pribram and others open a huge field for researches.

Aster's phenomenon is natural trance, which has become possible at one time in his life. Many people do a lot of works to create a condition, into which Aster enters daily as to himself home. In creation of an image, which is then represented on IM-figure, the last experience and forecasting of the future takes part. Personally I consider, that our brain is capable on modeling of the most different images, about what is written in my book. But to divide the objective and subjective information while it is impossible, if it is possible in general. This question very large to discuss it in this letter, but there are many philosophical and psychological works about it, and a part of a problem I have written in the my book.

Now Aster conducts a diary, which is made by me specially for him, these records should help to find law in IM-drawing. Certainly, Aster's enthusiasm and the energy in this discussion was very large, but he the not scientist, but man in practics, and this discussion there was a game in one gate. I hope, that this discussion has given all a lot of new experience, but I am not sure, that it is necessary to repeat already known experiments. The phenomenon of IM-drawing yet can not apply for your premium, about what I already spoke to Aster. But I do not doubt of necessity to investigate it, and I hope, that we still shall receive a lot of scientific information.

I poorly understand, why our idea of film about the Ideomotorics has not liked you. If such film would be made, probably, you should not tell about classical experiences with Dowsing and spirit sessions.; -) Unfortunately, the financial problems are really. For example, in Belarus for the majority of the scientists the own computer-notebook and unlimited Internet - dream, which not soon will come true. For continuation of many my works, including on research of IM-drawing, the psychophysiological laboratory is necessary, I search for financing for which creation. The participation in many scientific congresses requires the
charges, which can be compared to the salary ours scientific after one half-year. I can continue, but it does not decorate our country, therefore I shall stop.

And about the Rendi's premium. From psychological practice, probably, you never receive of the convincing proofs to hand over somebody this money. Here some reasons:
1) Any phenomenon will have an explanation in this or that theory of the person;
2) The man, which really has trans personal experience, becomes another - material values borrow a minor place in life;
3) Subjective it is impossible to check up by objective methods, and new are not developed yet.

I am not by the regular participant of this forum, therefore if somebody from the participants of discussion would like to set to me a question, I ask to write to me personally to the address - psylab@it.org.by. I promise to answer all letters, and a copy of the answer I shall send in this forum.

Sincerely yours,
Vladimir Sivitsky

[Charlie in Dayton]

Someday you guys are going to learn to read.

If you want to go for the Million Dollar Challenge, then apply for it. This forum is not the place to do it.
Letters of introduction will do you no good. Descriptions by others of what they think you can do will do nothing for your case.

Go apply for the Challenge properly, and stop pestering us with all this psychoactive mumbo-jumbo which to this point you have not proven.

THIS FORUM IS NOT THE PLACE TO STATE YOUR CASE FOR THE CHALLENGE. IF YOU CANNOT FOLLOW SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS, GO AWAY UNTIL YOU CAN!!!

[Aster]

stop pestering us with all this psychoactive mumbo-jumbo which to this point you have not proven.
THIS FORUM IS NOT THE PLACE TO STATE YOUR CASE FOR THE CHALLENGE. IF YOU CANNOT FOLLOW SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS, GO AWAY UNTIL YOU CAN!!!
Charlie,

Perhaps I ám able to read and you're not.
This is what I read and what made me post here.

"The JREF Forum was created to give our members and friends a chance to engage in intelligent discourse."

"Be part of the JREF web community by engaging in intelligent discussions with both skeptics and non-skeptics from around the globe."

Rgds.,
Aster.

http://www.cybercomm.nl/cyberspc/imaan.jpeg

[MRC_Hans]

Mmmm, beginning to sound familiar. Is there a standard code or something?

Hans

[Charlie in Dayton]

Please see here. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=447005#post447005)

[Earthborn]

Aster:
You handled Charlie very nicely! :)

Do you know any Russian yourself?

What I would like to know from this guy is:
What are the experiments, we are all supposed to know about, that prove his ideas?
What happened on the video he presented to his students? Can he give a detailed transscript of it?

[Aster]

You handled Charlie very nicely!
I hope I did. I love kids:)

And it is not that I don't see why I am partly responsible for him getting upset.
Do you know any Russian yourself?
Nope. We correspond in english as best as we can. Otherwise I use a translator here in Holland. She translates text in exchange for art. She is a terrific help.
What are the experiments, we are all supposed to know about, that prove his ideas? What happened on the video he presented to his students? Can he give a detailed transscript of it?
I am sure Sivitsky will answer all your questions. I will forward them to him and post his answers here. If you like, write to him directly.

Rgds.,
Aster.

http://www.cybercomm.nl/~cyberspc/imaan.jpeg

[Aster]

Mmmm, beginning to sound familiar. Is there a standard code or something?

I am unsure wether or not I understand what you're saying.
If you mean if there is a standard code that explains how or in what fashion one should write or respond I assume there is only the general code of ethics used on most public boards. Otherwise I have no idea.

Rgds.,
Aster.

http://www.cybercomm.nl/~cyberspc/imaan.jpeg

[Aster]

Aster, perhaps I could have chosen my words better. If so, on that basis you have my apologies.

No appologies nescessary, but accepted. You are perfectly entitled to your own opinion and I look forward to your futher participation as a hardline, no time for nonsense, skeptic.

Rgds.,
Aster.

http://www.cybercomm.nl/~cyberspc/imaan.jpeg

[Aster]

What are the experiments, we are all supposed to know about, that prove his ideas? What happened on the video he presented to his students? Can he give a detailed transscript of it?

Dear forum members!

I shall answer at once all three questions, because they are interconnected.
The following experiences are known which prove dependence of ideomotoric
(IM) movements from the person the one who does acts. I ask to forgive to me
mine English, I do not have regular practice. If there is a man, which well
knows Russian, I can in more detail write to him on Russian.

1. Recurrence of actions in a motionless condition of frameworks

The frameworks react to a place, man, subjects. If them to fix motionlessly,
any changes in their state will not be. It testifies that the movement of
frameworks is caused by operator.

2. Guessing a place of the latent subjects

With the help of frameworks the operator finds the hidden subjects. If the
operator sees, where the subject was hidden, the frameworks without mistakes
show this place. If the operator does not know, where the subject is hidden,
the forecasting begins, that is the operator tries to guess, and the
frameworks show his assumption.

3. Recurrence of actions by other people

If the frameworks are taken by other man, they move absolutely in another
way. Certainly, it is possible to tell, that other man has not abilities,
skill etc., but it testifies to subjectivity, that is about dependence on
the operator.

4. Performance at mental representation

It is necessary to take frameworks (or pendulum on cotton) and to hold
without movements and mentally to imagine movement. A bit later such
movement can really take place. But it turns out at those people better, who
has abilities to èäåîìîòîðèêå. It is features of nervous system, its that
part, which operates movement (about it too is written in my book).

I knew about it and earlier, but in more detail it is possible to read on
interenet-site of the Russian sceptics. The part of the information from
interenet-site present in my book about ideomotorics.

Such experiments I carried out two years back in group of the
students-psychologists, when among my students there was an expert with
frameworks for bio-field research. He used these frameworks and showed all
good and bad places in room, good and bad energy of the different people
etc. To prove to the students subjectivity of his information, I have lead
lesson, and the first part of this lesson he showed the his opportunities,
and during the second part I created for him such experimental conditions,
that all students are understanded, that the result depend only on the
operator.

Also there there were experiments on life-magnetism (this man shows in the
different countries, how to his body the different subjects are stick). His
personal record (his weight - 68 kgs) - 137 kgs, which is officially fixed
in Japan. My experiments show, that essence of a phenomenon not in
magnetism, and in features of a skin. To prove it it is very simple - it is
necessary between a subject and skin to put a paper or fabric. After that
the subject is not kept and falls. It too is on my videorecording. I wanted
to make record as a fragment for the future scientific and popular film, but
the quality has turned out bad, amateur.

But the given experiments do not explain main - as in consciousness the
image is created which is then IM-transferred. It is possible to explain a
situation to those by knowledge or ideas, which are at the operator, but
there are many cases, when this explanation does not approach. Attempt to
prove this phenomenon is in works of Karl Yung and Stanislav Grof. Also in
more detail I have told about it in book, which, hopes, will leave and in
English. Probably, it will take place in the summer or autumn.

If I am asked about the proof of my hypotheses about Aster's abilities, it
while only by hypotheses, and proof indirect - analysis of videorecording
and answers to questions in correspondence. For search of the proofs (or
their refutation) I also continue research. Excuse me, but while I shall not
more in detail tell about these experiments.

Sincerely yours, Vladimir Sivitsky, Ph.D.
psylab@it.org.by
220013, Belarus, Minsk, P.Brovki Str., IHEI

[Earthborn]

I sent the following to Renata:Hi Renata.

From some of your posts I understand that you are fluent in Russian. That's the reason why I send you this PM.

In the Million Dollar Challenge forum, I am having a discussion with Aster, a guy from the Netherlands who claims to have had certain paranormal experiences. He has had contact with a scientist from Russia who seems totally convinced of his claims. However, this scientist knows little English and communication is very difficult. So that's where you come in.

Are you willing to translate some messages between him and me (or other forum members) for easier communication? Even if you can just summarize what he's trying to say, it would be a great help.

This is the thread where he started communicating with us:
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/show...&threadid=18440

This is the thread where it all started (looong!):
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/show...&threadid=17390

This is a related thread:
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/show...&threadid=17815

Please let me know whether you are able and willing to help us out. Thanks.This was her reply:Sure, I can translate. However, although I speak both languages, I am likely unfamiliar with the technical terminology from your conversations, so it would be easiest for me if the messages are kept on a general level. Do you want English to Russian or Russian to English?
Do you want me to start participating in the threads, or translate via PM by request?I replied the following:
Sure, I can translate.Great!However, although I speak both languages, I am likely unfamiliar with the technical terminology from your conversations, so it would be easiest for me if the messages are kept on a general level.I'm sure it will be good enough, although it may help a bit if you read the some stuff in the threads to know what it is about.Do you want English to Russian or Russian to English?Possibly both, so I can ask him questions, and he can give answers.Do you want me to start participating in the threads, or translate via PM by request?It would be useful if you participate in the threads so you can relay any questions asked in them to this guy.

The first thing I like you to do is ask this Vladimir Sivitsky to send you his last message in its original Russian and give us a readable translation. I don't mind if you shorten it a bit, though
This is his email: psylab@it.org.by

And please ask him to shorten his answers and give more direct answers...

I hugely appreciate your willingness to help! Thanks.Hopefully this will simplify the communication with him a bit.

[Charlie in Dayton]

Originally posted by Aster

I hope I did. I love kids:)

And it is not that I don't see why I am partly responsible for him getting upset.



Kids? I'll be 51 this August, you young whippersnapper...

Query - am slowly, logically, and CALMLY assembling a refutation of statements made. Parts will be borrowed from all three threads, with conscious effort to include enough to retain context. Where should this scholarly treatise be posted? Pick the thread and I'll put it there (when it's done in a few days - major upheaval here at work).

[renata]

I can confirm that I agreed to assist in translating. I sent an e-mail to Vladimir in Russian and English tonight, saying




Hello,
I am a participant in the James Randi forum, and I was asked to assist in some translations between you and the members of the forum. I left USSR in 1989, and speak Russian fluently, However, the more technical matters would be difficult for me to translate. If you would like, I will be happy to help. For the beginning, users asked me to have yo describe your last message in Russian, and e-mail it to me. They also asked me to ask you to give them direct answers to your questions.
Thanks
Renata


If Vladimir chooses to utilize my assistance with this matter, I will let you know.

[Aster]

However, although I speak both languages, I am likely unfamiliar with the technical terminology from your conversations, so it would be easiest for me if the messages are kept on a general level.

That is a nice initiative from you, Earthborn!
I am sure Vladimir uses a terminology for most non professionals to understand:).

Rgds.,
Aster.

http://www.cybercomm.nl/~cyberspc/imaan.jpeg

[Aster]

Kids? I'll be 51 this August, you young whippersnapper...
hehehe, my humor is enless, isn't it ?
Query - am slowly, logically, and CALMLY assembling a refutation of statements made. Parts will be borrowed from all three threads, with conscious effort to include enough to retain context. Where should this scholarly treatise be posted? Pick the thread and I'll put it there (when it's done in a few days - major upheaval here at work).
I imagined that someone would do this. Hmmm... the skeptic rope around my neck is tightening. Perhaps you should start a new thread. Your choice.

Rgds.,
Aster.

http://www.cybercomm.nl/~cyberspc/imaan.jpeg

[Earthborn]

That is a nice initiative from you, Earthborn!You better thank Renata for willing to participate!
International discussion fora, don't you just love em? There is always someone who is fluent in any language you might need. :cool: I am sure Vladimir uses a terminology for most non professionals to understand :)
It at least forces him to explain himself as clearly as possible. :)

[Earthborn]

Where should this scholarly treatise be posted? Pick the thread and I'll put it there.Well, if you can't break it up to post the relevant sections in the relevant threads, maybe you should post it in the original thread (Ideomotor something something) where it all started and where most of what is said, is said. Just a suggestion though...

[renata]

I jsut wanted to inform you that I received a response to my e-mail by Vladimir Sivitsky. He attached several papers, which may take me a little bit to translate, and expressed willingness to utilize me for translation purposes. He also informed me that he will be out of office for a few days ( beginning of May has several holidays in former USSR) and may not get back to me immediately. I will post the translation of his message later tonight.
He also encourages submission of questions. He says he only received three so far, and believes he answered them. I will be able to post with more detail later today or over the weekend.

[Aster]

I just wanted to inform you that I received a response to my e-mail by Vladimir Sivitsky. He attached several papers, which may take me a little bit to translate, and expressed willingness to utilize me for translation purposes. He also informed me that he will be out of office for a few days ( beginning of May has several holidays in former USSR) and may not get back to me immediately. I will post the translation of his message later tonight.

Great. It seems that you're in for some heavy workload. What you set out to do is greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Rgds.,
Aster.

http://www.cybercomm.nl/~cyberspc/imaan.jpeg

[renata]

I tried to post this yesterday, but here it goes. The documents submitted are quite a bit to translate, I will do my best, but it will take a little time, and I may have to make so with the summaries.

[Aster]

From Vladimir Sivitsky :

Earthborn is very right, when she writes that only scientific proof will be convincing.

But I should make some remarks.
I have not received from him of the direct letter and consequently I speak
to you about it, and you, if you want, can transfer it to him.

Frequently new methods are necessary for reception of new knowledge. For
example, without microscope it was impossible to open the microworld,
without a telescope it is impossible to see distant stars.
The known methods allow to explain many facts, but leaves many more
inexplicable. In the majority of sciences now passes reconsideration of the
most fundamental knowledge. Therefore it is necessary to search - to create new methods,
tools, experiments. Especially where it concerns psychology.

Earthborn is right, when she writes that the basis of IM-drawing is neurology,
but is incorrect to claim that there is no external influence.
Practically any influence is external for our nervous system. The question
from computer science - what information is outside, as we receive it and as
we interpret it.
At neurological act there is a reason too. What is the reason in Asters case
and why it is not present at the majority of other people? Is this deviation
from norm or latent ability all of us? Here you have some of the questions,
for which I search the answer in our research.

[Earthborn]

Therefore it is necessary to search - to create new methods, tools, experiments.Which is exactly what I intend to do...Especially where it concerns psychology.In psychology usually no amazing new technology is necessary to make important discoveries, only a keen ability to think of simple and cheap experiments.
This is true of paranormal research also, which is what we are dealing with here.Earthborn is right, when she writes that the basis of IM-drawing is neurology,
but is incorrect to claim that there is no external influence.I have not said anything like that. I said that the external influence is most likely not any different than normal influences via the senses.What is the reason in Asters case
and why it is not present at the majority of other people?If this is the most important question, than Aster should see any neurologist, and probably get a quick and accurate answer.
The question here is whether there is anything paranormal going on...

[renata]

Here are the documents sent to me by Vladimir Sivitsky

He sent me three documents. For reasons I can not quite understand, while I was able to translate and download one ( the second one), I am unable to download my translations of numbers 1 & 3 on my weekday computer. I was able to do so on my weekend computer ( I spend weekends elsewhere). I will post the translation for the one I have now, and the other two over the weekend, if I can retrieve them. Terribly sorry for the delay- it was a longer project than expected, and required longer blocks of time. The translation is not word for word, rather I attempted to capture the meaning of each point.

* He refers to "frames" in Russian. I believe that is the device.
Any comments that I consider ambigous are in []


Document entitled ForumRendi2


What are the experiments, we are all supposed to know about, that prove his ideas?
What happened on the video he presented to his students?
Can he give a detailed transscript of it?


I shall answer all three questions at once, as they are interconnected.

The following experiments are known to prove dependence of ideomotoric (IM) movements on the person performing them. Please forgive my English, as I do not have regular practice. If there is a person who knows Russian, I can explain to them in more detail in Russian.

1. Recurrence of actions in a motionless condition of frames

The frames can react to a place, people or objects. If they are fixed to prohibit their motion, there will not be any changes in their position. That means the movement of frames is caused by the operator.

2. Guessing location of hidden objects

With the help of frames the operator can find hidden objects. If the operator saw where the objects were hidden[alternative- if the operator observed hiding of the objects-r], the frames show the location without error. If the operator does not know where the object is hidden, he begins prognosticating, in other words the operator attempts to guess the location, and the frames show his guess.

3. Repetition of actions by other people

If the frames are taken by anoother man, they move in a different way entirely. Certainly, it is possible to surmise, that the other man has no abilities, skills etc., but it testifies to subjectivity, that is about dependence on the operator.

4. Performance at mental representation

It is necessary to take frames (or pendulum or a string) and hold without movement and imagine movement mentally. A bit later such movement may really take place. But it happens with more success with people who have IM-abilities. They are features of the nervous system, the part of it which operates movement (I wrote about that in detail in my book).

I knew about it earlier, but it is possible to check in further detail on the internet-site of the Russian sceptics. A portion of information from their site is presented in my book about ideomotorics.

These types of experiments I was carrying out two years back with a group of the students of psychology, when among my students there was an expert with frames for bio-field research. He used these frames and showed everyone good and bad places in a room, good and bad energy of different people etc. To show the students the subjectivity of his information, I carried out a lesson[practical-r], and during the first part of this lesson he showed the his abilities, and during the second part of the lesson I created such experimental conditions[constraints-r], that it as self eviddent that the result depended only on the operator.

There were also experiments on animal-magnetism (this man performs shows in various and shows how different objects stick to his body). His personal record (his own weight is 68 kgs) was 137 kgs, which is officially recorded in Japan. My experiments show, that the cause of this phenomenon is not in magnetism, but rather in features of the skin. To prove it it is very simple - just put a piece of paper of fabric an object and skin. After that the object can not hold and falls down. That is also on my videorecording. I wanted to make the record as a fragment for a future scientific and popular film[educational film about science-r], but the quality of it turned out poor and amateurish.

But these experiments do not explain the main issue - as in the way the image is created in consciousness, the image which is later communicated via IM [this sentence was particularly difficult to translate, I am not sure I got it right- r]. It is possible to explain that situation by operators knowledge or thoughts, but there are many cases, in which this explanation does not work. An attempt to explain and base [ as in base on foundation of science-r] this phenomenon is in works of Carl Jung and Stanislav Grof. I have also discussed it in more detail in my book which I hope will be published in English. It will probably take place in the summer or autumn.

If I am asked about the proof of my hypotheses about Aster's abilities, those are know merely hypotheses, and proofs are indirect [circumstancial-r]- an analysis of a videorecording and answers to questions in correspondence. For search of the proof of the hypothesis or refutation of this hypothesis I continue myresearch.

[Earthborn]

Many thanks Renata!* He refers to "frames" in Russian. I believe that is the device.Could it be a dowsing rod? I don't know what a dowsing rod is in Russian, obviously, but I can imagine that it is similar to the word for 'frame' as it is often a Y-frame shaped object. If it is a dowsing rod, the article makes a lot more sense.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Here's a website that Aster's page links to. Renata, what's on it?
http://geni.org.by/

[Aster]

The link used to be to the english version of this IHEI website.
I will ask Vladimir where that has gone.

Rgds.,
Aster.

http://www.cybercomm.nl/~cyberspc/imaan.jpeg

[renata]

Originally posted by Earthborn
Many thanks Renata!Could it be a dowsing rod? I don't know what a dowsing rod is in Russian, obviously, but I can imagine that it is similar to the word for 'frame' as it is often a Y-frame shaped object. If it is a dowsing rod, the article makes a lot more sense.

I do believe he is using the term as a dowsing rod type device. I am not sure how a dowsing rod is referred to in Russian either- I have not encountered the concept will I came to the US.

[renata]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Here's a website that Aster's page links to. Renata, what's on it?
http://geni.org.by/

This appears to be a site for an International Humanitarian and Economics Institute. It appears to be a site for a school in Belorus. It is 8 years old. It appears it claims to be prestigious school concentrating in psychology. It says it has been classified by UNESCO to give international diplimas, and is an institute of higher learning. The site is not very well organized, so it is hard to figure out. It lists 6 papers on the Publications links, in Psychology department. 4/6 have Sivitsky as an author or co author, and one has Steven Aster as an Author. Aster's article is IM drawings. Sivitsky's are :"What is sports psychology? ", "Modelling of situations of decision making for diagnostics of tactical skills of sportsmen " "Preparation of experts in computer diagnostics in psychology " and " KOPRI- computer psychological role game"

I can link to the articles. Do you want me to translate?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Thank you, but they don't seem to have any value with regard to a judgement call on ideomotorics validity.

Now we just need to crack the mystery of the "frame." Aster, could you provide a photo of a frame?

[Aster]

This is how Vladimir Sivitsky responded about a 'frame'.

"Frames, about which I wrote in the letter to the forum, are a device, which is frequently used to test extrasense-men.
Take a piece of a wire, bend it under a direct corner (90), insert one end in pipe (for example, the case from a pen) and you have the frame."

Rgds,
Aster.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Aster
This is how Vladimir Sivitsky responded about a 'frame'.

"Frames, about which I wrote in the letter to the forum, are a device, which is frequently used to test extrasense-men.
Take a piece of a wire, bend it under a direct corner (90), insert one end in pipe (for example, the case from a pen) and you have the frame."

Rgds,
Aster.

So it is a dowsing rod. O.k. Thanks.

[Earthborn]

Here are Renata's translations of the articles Sivitsky sent her. I edited them for readability:

Sivitsky2 (http://member.prolinea.org/~joan/Aster/Sivitsky2.htm)
Sivitsky3 (http://member.prolinea.org/~joan/Aster/Sivitsky3.htm)

(To ensure the original Russian stayed correct, I saved them as HTML directly from MSWord... This means the files are bloated and I give no garantees that they will be displayed correctly on any browser other than MS Internet Exploiter)

[Earthborn]

Query - am slowly, logically, and CALMLY assembling a refutation of statements made. Parts will be borrowed from all three threads, with conscious effort to include enough to retain context. Where should this scholarly treatise be posted? Pick the thread and I'll put it there (when it's done in a few days - major upheaval here at work).Charlie, if you are still following this thread... How is your scholarly treatise?

[Earthborn]

Renata, could you ask these questions to Sivitsky when you get the time?

- What is 'holotropic breath'?
- What kind of experiments do you plan to do on Ideomotor drawing and/or on Aster when you have enough finances for the laboratory you plan to build?
- How do you plan to overcome the obvious language barrier between you and Aster when you will do the experiments?
- Wouldn't it be better if the experiments could be done in the Netherlands instead of Russia?

[renata]

Originally posted by Earthborn
Renata, could you ask these questions to Sivitsky when you get the time?

- What is 'holotropic breath'?
- What kind of experiments do you plan to do on Ideomotor drawing and/or on Aster when you have enough finances for the laboratory you plan to build?
- How do you plan to overcome the obvious language barrier between you and Aster when you will do the experiments?
- Wouldn't it be better if the experiments could be done in the Netherlands instead of Russia?


Questions translated and e-mailed.

[renata]

I recieved a lengthy reply to the questions, and will attempt to translate it tonight.

[renata]

Here are the translations of the answers to the questions.


What is 'holotropic breath'?

Holotropic breath is the technique developed by Stanislav Grofom as a way of entry in a changed condition in psychotherapy. It is actively used in transpersonal psychologies (S.Grof, K.Uilber, V.V.Kozlov), has many analogues, the most widespread are Coherent breath, Free breath etc.

The essence of this method - under the certain music (frequently ethnic) to breathe a certain way during a long period (not less than hour and up to 1,5 - 2 hours) under supervision of a sitter (sitter - the person who watches(keeps up) safety).


In this process there are various experiences, frequently of mystical and mythological character, very realistic, but controllable (i.e. at desire it is possible to adjust these "travels" by a rhythm of breath and with the help of the sitter). These experiences are caused by hyperventilation and effects accompanying breathing, render beneficial effect on nervous system and an organism as a whole.


As a result there is a disposal of many psychosomatic diseases, especially connected to a trauma at birth or features prenatal development. More details are in books of Stan and Christina Grof, Ken Wilber, Vladimir Kozlov and others. Key word can be " transpersonal psychology ", "holotropic".

Transpersonal psychology is called the next revolutionary direction in psychology (beheviorism, psychoanalysis, analytical, humanistic and gestalt-psychology) which can force an essential reconsidiration of scientific understanding of mental activity.



- What kind of experiments do you plan to do on Ideomotor drawing and/or on Aster when you have enough finances for the laboratory you plan to build?

Experiments are limited by means. Actually ideomotor drawing is not a scientific riddle, but allows receipt (creation-r) of figures made without the active control of consciousness that can become a graphic illustration of unconscious sphere. About it I write in detail in my book " Ideomotorness: familiar stranger " which soon will be published in Russian, and then, I hope, in English. In June I shall send some books in Russian to Stephen (I prefer to name Aster by his name) and I shall ask him to forward a copy to you. (he means me, not the forum I think-r)

Assuming that there are no financial problems with the organization of research, I would offer extended monitoring os psychophysiological conditions (CHSS - frequency of heart contractions (easier - pulse), EKG - the electrocardiogram, EEG - elektroencopahlogram, miogramm (don't know what that is- sorry-r) , features of functioning nervous system, analysis of chemical composition of air and blood etc.), including, in altered state of consciousness, i.e. in a trance when there is a drawing. Through comparison of the data synchronized in time it is possible to find laws of formation various psychophysiological conditions. Knowledge of such laws are necessary for psychotherapy, psychoregulation, rehabilitations etc. There might be interesting applications in the gaming, advertising and technical industry - in particular can, is it possible to create a device which "will decipher" signals of a brain and a body. Such works, are certainly conducted somewhere, but their results are poorly accessible

I want to try to create a technical device simulating ideomotor drawing of Stephen according to diagnostics - a certain similarity of a tomograph, only not in physiology, but in psychology can occur.

Many research methods require placing Stephen in laboratory conditions when he will have a modelled stream of information.


It would be good to fix the process of drawing with the help of a computer tablet with an opportunity to change color to the feather (feather in russian means pen or ink- a drawing device) by the other hand .


I will translate the other answers later. This is taking a lot of time.

[aggle_rithm]

Sounds like psychic photography to me. With a dash of Ouija Board.

Originally posted by renata



As a result there is a disposal of many psychosomatic diseases, especially connected to a trauma at birth or features prenatal development. More details are in books of Stan and Christina Grof, Ken Wilber, Vladimir Kozlov and others.


Interesting. How would one verify that a psychosomatic disease was caused by trauma at birth? Are there any studies that compare people born by, say, Ceasarian section with those who had a difficult birth, to see if there is a pattern of psychosomatic illness found in one but not the other?

Don't bother. I think I already know the answer. The only reason that quack psychologists invoke "birth trauma" or "prenatal development" is that it is usually unverifiable.

[renata]

Here is the rest:


- How do you plan to overcome the obvious language barrier between you and Aster when you will do the experiments?


Language barrier in a case IM drawing does not exist - I have no need to analyze Stephen's words as it occurs in psychoanalysis when the client "reveals" the problem via an unusual phrase. For base dialogue and specification of details I know enough English, moreover there are machine and live translators - we communicate with Stephen in English.


I do not have not enough speaking practice or a vocabulary for lecturing and conducting scientific discussions. My experience, and in particular, experience with dialogue with Russian sceptics, shows, that it is necessary to be very vigilant in the use of terms, definitions, formulation of the problem, a hypothesis etc.


A part of experiments has already been completed, a part is ongoing. In particular, Stephen has made for me videorecording of work, where tried to draw with concrete thoughts. I conducted " a round table " on IM drawing with the psychologists, psychiatrists, artists, philosophers, doctors and others. About it is written in my book.

Now I carrying out the next step in the research - I am studying features of emotional perception(reaction-r) of Stephen's drawings. Subjects reply to the questionnaire regarding their impression and mental state while viewing these 52 drawings. The same research is carried out now in Poland, by my student and friend Anna Radomskaja-Mal'chak. I want to compare result between people which have been brought up in conditions of domination of either Russian Orthodoxy or Catholicism. I have sent Stephen variant of the English questionnaire so it is possible, that we can also add Protestanism.

If rhere will be a laboratory, then there will be new experiments. In addition to IM, I have other work - management of faculty and teaching of psychology, consultation and trainings, testing and creation of new methodology. Therefore, it is difficult to plan a lot of experiments. But there are a lot, in my opinion, interesting plans and ideas.


Wouldn't it be better if the experiments could be done in the Netherlands instead of Russia?

Probably, you are right, but I do not see this opportunity. I have a family and work in Minsk. To leave even for a few months (and smaller term is inefficient) I will put them in inconvenient position and materially, and morally. Besides there are all the same opportunities here and it can cost much less.

But we anticipate meetings, and joint projects.

For example, I have offered Stephen to organize in different locations my lectures (unfortunately, currently in Russian and with an interpreter) on IM, sports psychology, computer psychodiagnostics, to the altered states of consciousness, psychoregulation. Believe me, even today in the Soviet psychological school there plenty to tell to the western colleagues and students.


I am actually a citizen of Ukraine (but by a nationality - the Belorussian, more precisely, Belorussian-Pole), in Minsk only five years (here with me my wife and daughter), but in Ukraine the conditions are now much worse, than in Belorussia. Here, at least, there is no nationalism which is strongly developed in Lvov, from where I arrived here. Here I have opportunity to do what I want to do and what I am able to do, I have the support of a management of the institute and talented pupils.



I hope,I have answered your questions but if is not please ask more. If it is possible, please send the English translation to Stephen to the address ( I am not posting the e-mail here, but the translation has been e-mailed to Aster-r)

[Earthborn]

Thanks, Renata! Great work.miogramm (don't know what that is- sorry-r)I have little doubt that he means taking an electromyogram (EMG). That's measuring the electrical activity of the muscles.A part of experiments has already been completed, a part is ongoing.I'd like to know what experiments have been completed and what the results were.Subjects reply to the questionnaire regarding their impression and mental state while viewing these 52 drawings. The same research is carried out now in Poland, by my student and friend Anna Radomskaja-Mal'chak. I want to compare result between people which have been brought up in conditions of domination of either Russian Orthodoxy or Catholicism. I have sent Stephen variant of the English questionnaire so it is possible, that we can also add Protestanism.Steven, can you post the questionaire on your website?

This questionaire experiment raises a few questions:
Are there any other drawings than those of Steven to compare the impressions of people to his work and those of others? If so, do these people know which pictures are made by Steven and which are not? Are the people who do the questionaire told in advance that there is something special about them? What is the added benefit of comparing the results between religions?But there are a lot, in my opinion, interesting plans and ideas.I'd like to hear about some of them...Probably, you are right, but I do not see this opportunity. I have a family and work in Minsk. To leave even for a few months (and smaller term is inefficient) I will put them in inconvenient position and materially, and morally.Okay, I can understand why he may have misunderstood my question. I meant: Wouldn't it be better for Steven to be examined in the Netherlands by dutch scientists, without Sivitsky's direct involvement?

[Aster]

Renate: thank you for your translations!

Earthborn, you wrote:
Steven, can you post the questionaire on your website?

The questionaire will be part of the new website I am working on. The url to this new website will be www.ideomotor.net
I intend to make it interactive so people can be invited to participate in the questionaire.
Do you think it serves a purpose to place it on a server prior to the new website ? I could do that without much problem but I doubt there are any people here who would participate in it. If not, I can send it to you privately.

Are there any other drawings than those of Steven to compare the impressions of people to his work and those of others?

No. This is largely because there are no other ideomotor artists present at this point. I know they are out there somewhere...

If so, do these people know which pictures are made by Steven and which are not?

All drawings are made by me.

Are the people who do the questionaire told in advance that there is something special about them?

Good question. Only Vladimir can answer that. I understand that people are well informed what this questionaire is about and what is the special character of the art that is represented in it.

What is the added benefit of comparing the results between religions?

I don't see that either. Somehow Vladimir believes that protestantism may have influenced my belief structure and this may show through in my work. I don't see how this could be true, I am no follower of Protestantism, nor of any religion really. My interest in religion and spirituality is evident tho, and my trancedental ideomotor experiences are marked by religious aspects.

I meant: Wouldn't it be better for Steven to be examined in the Netherlands by dutch scientists, without Sivitsky's direct involvement?

Why would that be better ? Dutch/western science is not interested in my work. I have tried that route.

Rgds.,
Aster.

http://www.cybercomm.nl/~cyberspc/imaan.jpeg

[Earthborn]

If not, I can send it to you privately.I have recieved it. Thanks. I will discuss it later.No. This is largely because there are no other ideomotor artists present at this point. I know they are out there somewhere...But it would be most interesting if there were drawings by normal artists randomly distributed between your work, so it would be possible to see whether people react any differently to ideomotor art and non-ideomotor art.Only Vladimir can answer that. I understand that people are well informed what this questionaire is about and what is the special character of the art that is represented in it.Yes, I saw it in the short introduction it had. I think this is a problem, as it means that the people viewing the art are seeing something special and therefore their reaction is influenced by this knowledge. This means that the questionnaire cannot be used to investigate whether there is anything special to the pictures at all!

And that would be the thing I like to know, wouldn't you? I don't see that either.Good, we agree then. The problem with the questionnaire as it is, is that it only measures differences in how people of different religions react to your work. It says nothing about your work itself, it's just the material for the test!

It would only say something about your work if it is compared to other (non-ideomotoric) work. And of course only when no one taking the test knows which is which...Why would that be better ?It would be better because it is easier and cheaper. It wouldn't require Sivitsky to build a laboratory full of expensive equipment, you wouldn't need to fly across Europe, no language barriers...Dutch/western science is not interested in my work.I doubt that very much.I have tried that route.I'm sure you have, but you weren't taken seriously. I think it has to do a lot with your presentation.

If you start by writing to a prestigious research facility and start saying things like "I'm the world greatest ideomotor artist", "I foresaw my brother's burial", "My work is proof of an etheric subspace"... then they are likely to think '"What a nutter. I don't have time for this."

But...

If you start by going to your doctor and say "I sometimes experience that my hand draws things I have no direct conscience control of and I like to know how thats possible. Could you refer me to a neurologist?" then you probably can get many of the same measurements taken as Sivitsky wants to. Ask the neurologist to give you the report and the measurements 'because a befriended scientist wants to see them', send them to Russia, and Sivitsky has his data...

Or if you start by showing us your list of claims, maybe let me design a few experiments, take experiment designs and claims to your local skeptic's group and ask if they can help you perform them...

... then people are interested!

[Aster]

But it would be most interesting if there were drawings by normal artists randomly distributed between your work, so it would be possible to see whether people react any differently to ideomotor art and non-ideomotor art.
That is a good point. I will discuss this with Vladimir and see how he means to answer to this problem.
Yes, I saw it in the short introduction it had. I think this is a problem, as it means that the people viewing the art are seeing something special and therefore their reaction is influenced by this knowledge. This means that the questionnaire cannot be used to investigate whether there is anything special to the pictures at all!
The fact that the pictures represent something special does not need to be investigated this way. It is already clear. On the other hand I believe you are correct when assuming that another (your kind) investigation could be designed in order to determine what the special qualities of this type of work are according to the viewers.
And that would be the thing I like to know, wouldn't you?
Surely.
Good, we agree then. The problem with the questionnaire as it is, is that it only measures differences in how people of different religions react to your work. It says nothing about your work itself, it's just the material for the test!
Perhaps, but that in itself is a good reason to perform such a test. I should put this to Vladimir and see what his answer is, not knowing what his intentions are nor in what perspective he presents the results of this test in his book.
It would only say something about your work if it is compared to other (non-ideomotoric) work. And of course only when no one taking the test knows which is which...
I like to see how people, knowledgeable of ideomotor art or automatic drawing, would compare my work to that of the masters of the past, Austin Osman Spare, Salvador Dali, Andre Masson, Breton and others. When I compare my work to theirs, I think my work is superior.

-brake-

Rgds.,
Aster.
http://www.cybercomm.nl/~cyberspc/imaan.jpeg

[Aster]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dutch/western science is not interested in my work.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt that very much.

My presentation to IHEI was the same as my presentation to Dutch and other institutions. When I wrote I have tried that route, it is not entirely true; I have not tried hard enough, and I have not really been contacting scientific institutions here. I'll take your comments at heart, yet I am very content about the interest of IHEI and other Russian agents in my work. The Dutch institution for paranormal research, Philips company, Pulchri Studio, Raad voor de Kunst, Boymans museum, Stedelijk museum, and many others turned me down.

I have forwarded some of your questions and comments to Vladimir and will post his answers upon receipt.

Rgds.,
Aster.http://cybercomm.nl/~cyberspc/imaan.jpeg

[Aster]

Vladimir has sent his answers to your questions to Renata, no doubt because he composed them in his native tongue. I hope she will translate them and post them here soon.

Rgds.,

Aster.http://www.cybercomm.nl/~cyberspc/imaan.jpeg

[Aster]

Hello Renate,

Thank you for the translations that you have done for us here, and for Earthborn especially.

In June I shall send some books in Russian to Stephen (I prefer to name Aster by his name) and I shall ask him to forward a copy to you. (he means me, not the forum I think-r)

I have received some copies of Vladimirs book and, if you are interested and I could send you one copy.

Rgds.,
Aster.

http://www.cybercomm.nl/~cyberspc/imaan.jpeg

[scribbles]

i am scribbles i am a friend of sasa aster anstar

[Gr8wight]

Scribbles=thread messiah

[Anna Karenina]

From what I remember of psyc at uni and I confirmed this with the world's most awesome source in the entire world (wikipedia plug oooh yeah) - ideomotor effect is not a paranormal phenomenon. In fact, many researchers suggest that apparent 'paranormal' phenomena (like spirit writing) is due to ideomotor effects. So I'm a little confused about what this guy is trying to say here?

[MRC_Hans]

Welcome to the forums Anna Karenina.

You will note that this thread is rather old. I think the subject has died a natural death ;).

Hans

[Anna Karenina]

oh lol oops :)

[Earthborn]

So I'm a little confused about what this guy is trying to say here?The guy was claiming that some sort of paranormal thing caused him to draw automatically (similar to automatic writing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_writing)) and that drawings gave glimpses of the future. He had no conscious control over what he drew, so he probably thought a term for involuntary motion was appropriate.

[scribbles]

the reason i believe aster is because the same similar thing happened to ME too.

that is how i found him on google many years ago.

he has developed a site about it at www.angel-drawing.com


see ya

[Moochie]

the reason i believe aster is because the same similar thing happened to ME too.

that is how i found him on google many years ago.

he has developed a site about it at www.angel-drawing.com (http://www.angel-drawing.com)


see ya


I'll sell you my random scribbles for 2.5 euros. They cure scrotal depression. But only in Catholics.


M.