Sexual Education

[Hegel]

In the United States of America, homophobia is rampant. I live in a community, and go to a church, where homophobia is the norm. This is a difficult problem to combat. So many people feel that homosexuality is wrong, and then pass this belief down to thier children. One solution for this problem I thought of was teaching homosexuality in school sex education programs, as an acceptable alternative to hetrosexual sex. My thought is that if at least one influence in thier live (even if a small one) tells then that homosexuals are not evil, then perhaps it may become possible to combat homophobia, in the same way we combat racism.

Pros, cons, just random comments. What do you think?

[prettygirlsmakegrave]

I agree completely. Yet in the public school system it would be so hard to present this idea because of all the homophobic thoughts surrounding the issue. It may be considered trying to force kids into homosexuality, although it obviously isn't! I wish this would work because it would help the underlying problem of homophobia incredibly.

I think some of what it takes to shake the bigotry is actually knowing a gay person. It's not easy for the bigot to do, but if they can be friendly with just one gay person, it's a good start. It's too easy to hate people from a distance after all...

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Hegel
One solution for this problem I thought of was teaching homosexuality in school sex education programs, as an acceptable alternative to hetrosexual sex.

Could you clarify this suggestion a bit?

Thanks.

MattJ

[Hegel]

Sure, thing.

What I meant is that in the public education system, the sexual education programs would be required to teach homosexual sexuality, as an equal alternative to hetrosexuality in an unbiased and informative way.

Hope that clears it up.

[Sundog]

Allow me to be the Devil's Advocate for a moment.

So your solution to the fact that most people don't feel the way you do would be a public-funded, government-approved "education" campaign to socially engineer their thinking to what they Should Think?

Love it. :rolleyes:

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Sundog
Allow me to be the Devil's Advocate for a moment.

So your solution to the fact that most people don't feel the way you do would be a public-funded, government-approved "education" campaign to socially engineer their thinking to what they Should Think?

Love it.

It isn't social engineering. Fear is bred from ignorance. Education is designed to counter ignorance. Fear cannot breed without ignorance. That is all that is being proposed.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Hegel
One solution for this problem I thought of was teaching homosexuality in school sex education programs, as an acceptable alternative to hetrosexual sex.
While I think homophobia is about as moronic as racism, but I don't know that I think this is the best solution.

First, I think sexual education in school should be focused on the mechanics of the process and how to protect one's self from disease and unwanted pregnancy. I don't think it's the school's responsibility to present sexual preferences nor to decide which ones are "acceptable" and which ones are not. For example, should schools also teach about S&M? Foot fetishes? Furries? Who decides which orientations are to be taught and which ones are not.

Second, imagine that Tommy goes to school and learns how homosexuals are people too and are no different than you and me. Then, Tommy goes home that night and hear's his dad talk about those G*d d*mn*d F*gg*ts that are going to burn in hell. Which of the mixed messages do you think Tommy is going to believe?

No, I don't think the school is the right way to initiate social change like this.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Hegel
Sure, thing.

What I meant is that in the public education system, the sexual education programs would be required to teach homosexual sexuality, as an equal alternative to hetrosexuality in an unbiased and informative way.

Hope that clears it up.

It does.

I side against top-down socialization requirements for the public schools, no matter how well intentioned they are.

MattJ

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Upchurch

While I think homophobia is about as moronic as racism, but I don't know that I think this is the best solution.

First, I think sexual education in school should be focused on the mechanics of the process and how to protect one's self from disease and unwanted pregnancy. I don't think it's the school's responsibility to present sexual preferences nor to decide which ones are "acceptable" and which ones are not. For example, should schools also teach about S&M? Foot fetishes? Furries? Who decides which orientations are to be taught and which ones are not.

People with foot fetishes or S&M tendencies don't get beaten in public for holding hands with their partner. You're comapring apples to oranges.


Second, imagine that Tommy goes to school and learns how homosexuals are people too and are no different than you and me. Then, Tommy goes home that night and hear's his dad talk about those G*d d*mn*d F*gg*ts that are going to burn in hell. Which of the mixed messages do you think Tommy is going to believe?

No, I don't think the school is the right way to initiate social change like this.

My father is a homophobe and a racist. I am not. I learned tolerance in school. Granted not all think like I do but school is the place for learning about society not the home.

[Mr Manifesto]

This is in no way on topic but who is rating all the threads '1' and why are they doing it? I'm not bothered just curious about the human condition. Is this some sort of poetry?

[Tony]

Why not teaching kids HOW to think instead of WHAT to think? You discribe "homophobia" as a "problem". I think a bigger problem is indoctrinating kids. Teach kids how to think critically and logically, and you will solve the "problem of homophobia".

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto

People with foot fetishes or S&M tendencies don't get beaten in public for holding hands with their partner. You're comapring apples to oranges.I don't think it's that different, but granted, those groups aren't easily identifiable. How about transexuals or transvestites, then? Apply that to the argument.
My father is a homophobe and a racist. I am not. I learned tolerance in school. Granted not all think like I do but school is the place for learning about society not the home. To your credit, I believe you are the exception rather than the rule. How else could students from the same class have different views? However, what really bothers me about this is the implication that the schools should shape the morals and values of children rather than the parents. Granted, in your case, it was for the better, but I still don't think that school is the proper mechanism.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


It does.

I side against top-down socialization requirements for the public schools, no matter how well intentioned they are.

MattJ

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

[Mr Manifesto]

I don't think it's that different, but granted, those groups aren't easily identifiable. How about transexuals or transvestites, then? Apply that to the argument.

I do not have a problem with this too. Who are they hurting?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tony
Why not teaching kids HOW to think instead of WHAT to think? You discribe "homophobia" as a "problem". I think a bigger problem is indoctrinating kids. Teach kids how to think critically and logically, and you will solve the "problem of homophobia". Yes. I agree except that "problem of homophobia" is really loaded. A better approach may be to discuss the "issue of homosexuality", perhaps?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


I do not have a problem with this too. Who are they hurting?
*sigh*

No one. (Well, maybe the transgendered are hurting themselves. I can't imagine anyone doing that to their own bodies.) I have friends who are each, including transgendered. What I'm saying is, who decides what is acceptable and what is not?

Let's go to a logical extreme. Is pedophilia and incest acceptable or unacceptable? I think it is, but that's my opinion. Someone else may have a different opinion on the issue. Do I get to choose who teaches what is morally acceptable to my kids or does someone else?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Let's go to a logical extreme. Is pedophilia and incest acceptable or unacceptable? I think it is, but that's my opinion. Someone else may have a different opinion on the issue. Do I get to choose who teaches what is morally acceptable to my kids or does someone else?

Let's rather go to the other extreme, where people Manifesto may consider to be intolerant choose how to socialize children in school.

MattJ

[ZeeGerman]

Look here (http://www.ralf-koenig.de/) ! the comics of this G[a|u]y are the funniest way to get to understand gays. Very popular among homos and heteros alike in Germany and some other countries. Unfortuantaley, translations in English are rare (I wonder why...).

If you are an american prude - beware, some of the strips are very revealing :D even more than this
one (http://www.ralf-koenig.de/bilder/scribble9.jpg)


Zee

[edited, to defuse a non "work safe" picture :cool: ]

[aerocontrols]

Zee...

That picture is not work-safe. Please replace it or get rid of it.

edit: Thanks, Zee.

MattJ

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Upchurch

*sigh*

No one. (Well, maybe the transgendered are hurting themselves. I can't imagine anyone doing that to their own bodies.) I have friends who are each, including transgendered. What I'm saying is, who decides what is acceptable and what is not?

Let's go to a logical extreme. Is pedophilia and incest acceptable or unacceptable? I think it is, but that's my opinion. Someone else may have a different opinion on the issue. Do I get to choose who teaches what is morally acceptable to my kids or does someone else?

Again you are comparing apples to oranges. There can be no issue of consent with paedophillia. There is consent between homosexuals of a sufficient age. The same goes for incest -or at least the type that is policed. If two adults who are closely related as sister or brother are having a sexual relationship for a start this sort of relationship is rare and for a second these people don't have to worry about being beaten in public unless they wear t-shirts saying "I'm with incest".

You seem to be trying to say that school is not the place to teach moral lessons. That is ridiculous. Schools teach morals to their students all the time such as the moral of capitalism. What the difficult question is -what do we collectively want as a society and what is the best way to acheive this aim?

[Tony]

Why is it ok to indoctinate kids with the idea that homosexually it ok, but not ok to indoctrinate a kid with patriotism or loyalty to country? Just courious.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto



You seem to be trying to say that school is not the place to teach moral lessons. That is ridiculous. Schools teach morals to their students all the time such as the moral of capitalism. What the difficult question is -what do we collectively want as a society and what is the best way to acheive this aim?

You are ignoring the quite obvious fact that, this being America, nothing is going to be taught in a public school for long that isn't a consensus of the opinions of the people that pay for it. You have the cart before the horse; it is first necessary to get the ADULTS to agree.

"Educating" people what to think "for their own good" is most certainly social engineering.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
You seem to be trying to say that school is not the place to teach moral lessons. That is ridiculous. Schools teach morals to their students all the time such as the moral of capitalism. What the difficult question is -what do we collectively want as a society and what is the best way to acheive this aim?

I again state my opposition to top-down requirements for such socialization. Please consider all the moral issues which you and the majority disagree upon.

MattJ

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Tony
Why is it ok to indoctinate kids with the idea that homosexually it ok, but not ok to indoctrinate a kid with patriotism or loyalty to country? Just courious.

Do you seriously expect me to believe that they do not teach patriotism in schools in America?

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Tony
Why is it ok to indoctinate kids with the idea that homosexually it ok, but not ok to indoctrinate a kid with patriotism or loyalty to country? Just courious.

Mark this day on the calendar, Tony, I agree with you 100%. Both are totally out of place in a school.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Do you seriously expect me to believe that they do not teach patriotism in schools in America?

Do you believe it should be required by the federal government that schools do so?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


Do you believe it should be required by the federal government that schools do so?

It doesn't need to be required by the federal government. It already occurs. People are not harmed by patriotism. There is nothing to counter here. People are harmed because they are homosexual. This ignorance needs to be countered.

Let me counter your question with a question. Do you think that it is right that children are taught not to inhale aerosols in school?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Do you seriously expect me to believe that they do not teach patriotism in schools in America?


How old are you? When was the last time you were in a public school for the purpose of learning?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Tony



How old are you? When was the last time you were in a public school for the purpose of learning?

I do not understand your question.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
It doesn't need to be required by the federal government. It already occurs. People are not harmed by patriotism. There is nothing to counter here. People are harmed because they are homosexual. This ignorance needs to be countered.

Lots of ingnorance needs to be countered. I hope you never find your preferred brand of ignorance at stake.

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
Let me counter your question with a question. Do you think that it is right that children are taught not to inhale aerosols in school?

To the extent that anti-drug programs are required by the federal government, I oppose them, if that's what (huffing) you're talking about.

MattJ

[Tony]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


I do not understand your question.


How old are you?

When was the last time you were in a public school?

Better?

Im trying to understand how you think patriotism is taught in schools.

[jimlintott]

I sort of agree with Mr Manifesto. Schools should be teaching tolerance. I'm sure they already make racism an issue just broaden it to include more groups.

I'm not sure that Sex Ed class is the right forum. For practical reasons. Many of the bible thumping homophobes don't even want heterosexual sex taught. Some don't want science taught. As for teaching ethics (probably the best place to deal with it) these thumpers figure we should just post the ten commandments somewhere. Unfortunalety Johnny can't read.

Illiteracy contributes to ignorance. Hatred is usually a product of ignorance. Teach Johnny to read. Maybe he'll figure it out on his own.

[Mr Manifesto]

Perhaps it is because I'm Australian. Maybe I've presumed to much.

Do they sing the national anthem in American schools?

Do they have the American flag?

Are American soldiers remembered on a certain day and on that day are their praises sung?

Do the celebrate Presidents' Day at American schools?

How is the colonisation -after the Native Americans- of America taught?


aerocontrols- I have asked 'Do you think that it is right that children are taught not to inhale aerosols in school?' Perhaps I have picked a question too politically loaded for you. Let me ask another question. Do you think that it is right that children are taught not to play with matches in school?

[Tony]

Originally posted by jimlintott
Schools should be teaching tolerance.


Why?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
Perhaps it is because I'm Australian. Maybe I've presumed to much.

Do they sing the national anthem in American schools?

Do they have the American flag?

Are American soldiers remembered on a certain day and on that day are their praises sung?

Do the celebrate Presidents' Day at American schools?




How would any of this constitute teaching patriotism?

How is the colonisation -after the Native Americans- of America taught?

Its different from state to state. But I had a really good, anti-revisionist teacher that taught the facts and politics of the time. This enabled us students to understand the context of the Indian Wars.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Tony


How would any of this constitute teaching patriotism?



If you cannot see then I'm afraid you are wasting my time.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
What the difficult question is -what do we collectively want as a society and what is the best way to acheive this aim? And who decides that? And if I disagree am I allowed to teach my children otherwise?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Upchurch
And who decides that? And if I disagree am I allowed to teach my children otherwise?

Of course you can. What sort of stupid question is that? Unless you know of schools where children are locked inside the classroom for ten years in a row then this is what happens in real life anyway.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
Perhaps it is because I'm Australian. Maybe I've presumed to much.It's just the difference of theoretical knowledge versus practical knowledge.
Do they sing the national anthem in American schools?Nope. The closest it got in my high school was playing the national anthem before basket ball games.
Do they have the American flag?One. Outside. Along with the state flag.
Are American soldiers remembered on a certain day and on that day are their praises sung?Heh. You'd be lucky to find an American grade school kid who knows that Memorial Day isn't just for getting out of school for a day, let alone actually singing praises for the verterans.
Do the celebrate Presidents' Day at American schools?Again, just another day off from school.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Of course you can. What sort of stupid question is that?It's no dumber than suggesting that schools should do the parents' job of raising their kids for them.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Upchurch
It's no dumber than suggesting that schools should do the parents' job of raising their kids for them.

It isn't a black and white issue. The job of raising the child is partly the state and partly the parents. They should compliment each other.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


It isn't a black and white issue. The job of raising the child is partly the state and partly the parents. They should compliment each other. I agree except that I think schools should teach the kids information and parents should teach kids values.

Let's try it this way. You want schools to teach kids what is acceptible moral behavior and what isn't, right? Well, what religion should they teach them, then?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I agree except that I think schools should teach the kids information and parents should teach kids values.

Let's try it this way. You want schools to teach kids what is acceptible moral behavior and what isn't, right? Well, what religion should they teach them, then?

Religion is one of the things best left to the family. There are too many different religions to be taught in schools. What should be taught in schools is the toleration of other religions -for a timely example- the tenents of Islam and how they aren't wild-eyed fanatics.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


If you cannot see then I'm afraid you are wasting my time.

Hi, Mr. Manifesto. I think you're dismissing this one too easily. Although you could probably define these things as "teaching patriotism", they are really not, at least in the real world. It's something kids pretty much do without thinking and without attaching too much importance to it.

Considering that you are talking about a class, I think a fairer example would be a class about patriotism. These don't exist in American schools. We have civics classes which teach people the nuts and bolts of American government. Believe me, if there were classes in patriotism, I'd be plenty upset; that's MY job to teach that.

If you will excuse the observation, your arguments aren't helped by calling people names.

Do you believe it is appropriate to use classes for indoctrinational purposes in general? Who decides the agenda? The problem with your scenario is that someone besides The Peepul is deciding the agenda. Surely you see the problem that represents, and the can of worms you'd be opening?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Sundog


Hi, Mr. Manifesto. I think you're dismissing this one too easily. Although you could probably define these things as "teaching patriotism", they are really not, at least in the real world. It's something kids pretty much do without thinking and without attaching too much importance to it.

Considering that you are talking about a class, I think a fairer example would be a class about patriotism. These don't exist in American schools. We have civics classes which teach people the nuts and bolts of American government. Believe me, if there were classes in patriotism, I'd be plenty upset; that's MY job to teach that.

If you will excuse the observation, your arguments aren't helped by calling people names.

Do you believe it is appropriate to use classes for indoctrinational purposes in general? Who decides the agenda? The problem with your scenario is that someone besides The Peepul is deciding the agenda. Surely you see the problem that represents, and the can of worms you'd be opening?

I don't see how telling someone they are wasting my time is calling them names. Especially if that someone is wasting my time. I also don't see how teaching tolerance of homosexuality is indoctrinational. Even if it were, there are some doctrines taught in schols. You cannot tell me that just because there isn't a class called 'patriotism 101' that patriotism is not taught in American schools. To say that it isn't is naive, disingenous or plain stupid.

[jimlintott]

Why should schools teach tolerance?

Schools teach all sorts of social norms. How to line up. How to wait your turn. How to get along with others. With teasing and bullying reaching almost epidemic proportions tolerance for others should be given a beter priority.

I agree with Upchurch that parents should teach their children values. Unfortunately, homophobia, racism, and intolerance are values that parents frequently teach children. As a society we have recognised that some of these values are not productive. If all parents taught worthwhile values we likely wouldn't be having this discussion.

Part of education is how to live in society. Schools certainly have a role (if not an obligation) here.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by jimlintott
Why should schools teach tolerance?

Schools teach all sorts of social norms. How to line up. How to wait your turn. How to get along with others. With teasing and bullying reaching almost epidemic proportions tolerance for others should be given a beter priority.

I agree with Upchurch that parents should teach their children values. Unfortunately, homophobia, racism, and intolerance are values that parents frequently teach children. As a society we have recognised that some of these values are not productive. If all parents taught worthwhile values we likely wouldn't be having this discussion.

Part of education is how to live in society. Schools certainly have a role (if not an obligation) here.

So how do you propose to make society a better place? Wait for everyone to become enlightened all on their own?

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


I don't see how telling someone they are wasting my time is calling them names. Especially if that someone is wasting my time. I also don't see how teaching tolerance of homosexuality is indoctrinational. Even if it were, there are some doctrines taught in schols. You cannot tell me that just because there isn't a class called 'patriotism 101' that patriotism is not taught in American schools. To say that it isn't is naive, disingenous or plain stupid.

I will repeat, and I will repeat it again until you learn: your argument is not strengthened by calling people names.

Allow me to be pithy for a moment, as you deserve it now.

1. Learn to spell "disingenuous" before using the word.

2. What adjective would you apply to someone who lived on the other side of the planet from you, and yet insisted that he knew what was going on there better than you? Shall I share some of my ignorance of Australian schools with you?

3. Patriotism is not taught in American schools, not in any way, shape or form, whatever you might think.

Do you not see that teaching people what opinions are Correct To Have is inherently a very dangerous thing?

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Zee...

That picture is not work-safe. Please replace it or get rid of it.

MattJ

Matt, I changed the picture into a link, no problem :)

But please - explain to me what exactly is it in the picture that makes it unsafe?

Two GUYS?
French Kiss?
The more than horizontal somethings well covered by cloth?
Combinations of the above?


Just curious really,

Zee

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Sundog


I will repeat, and I will repeat it again until you learn: your argument is not strengthened by calling people names.
I was saying the argument was stupid, disingenuous or naive not you.


Allow me to be pithy for a moment, as you deserve it now.

1. Learn to spell "disingenuous" before using the word.
:rolleyes:


2. What adjective would you apply to someone who lived on the other side of the planet from you, and yet insisted that he knew what was going on there better than you? Shall I share some of my ignorance of Australian schools with you?
What does this have to do with the issue of teaching tolerance in schools?

3. Patriotism is not taught in American schools, not in any way, shape or form, whatever you might think.
The national anthem isn't sung? Soldiers aren't revered on Rememberance day? Schools don't observe Presidents' Day?

Do you not see that teaching people what opinions are Correct To Have is inherently a very dangerous thing?
'Opinion' would be 'it is good to be homosexual and everyone should try it at least once'. This issue we are looking at is teaching tolerance of homosexuality in schools. That is different. If the issue were about whether children should play with matches I wonder would you be so vehement in your opinion?

[Tony]

Originally posted by jimlintott
Why should schools teach tolerance?

Schools teach all sorts of social norms. How to line up. How to wait your turn. How to get along with others. With teasing and bullying reaching almost epidemic proportions tolerance for others should be given a beter priority.

I agree with Upchurch that parents should teach their children values. Unfortunately, homophobia, racism, and intolerance are values that parents frequently teach children. As a society we have recognised that some of these values are not productive. If all parents taught worthwhile values we likely wouldn't be having this discussion.

Part of education is how to live in society. Schools certainly have a role (if not an obligation) here.

I disagree, "teaching tolerance" is teaching kids to repress their thoughts and feelings.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Religion is one of the things best left to the family. There are too many different religions to be taught in schools. What should be taught in schools is the toleration of other religions -for a timely example- the tenents of Islam and how they aren't wild-eyed fanatics. But what about those religions that view other religions as evil or whatever and view tolorance of such as against there religion? Like say, fundamentalist muslims or babtists?

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Sundog

3. Patriotism is not taught in American schools, not in any way, shape or form, whatever you might think.


While I don't disagree with your conclusions, I would like to see more about this.

Are you saying that teaching 2nd graders about Abraham Lincoln and George Washington and having them make cut-out pictures and Lincoln stove-top hats isn't effectively teaching patriotism?

You don't think it is taught with national pride, and is just taught as history?

Are they not called "great americans," thus placing a value judgement on what it takes to be a great american?

When I was growing up, President's day was the time in art class where we did a lot of red/white/blue projects.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by pgwenthold


While I don't disagree with your conclusions, I would like to see more about this.

Are you saying that teaching 2nd graders about Abraham Lincoln and George Washington and having them make cut-out pictures and Lincoln stove-top hats isn't effectively teaching patriotism?

You don't think it is taught with national pride, and is just taught as history?

Are they not called "great americans," thus placing a value judgement on what it takes to be a great american?

When I was growing up, President's day was the time in art class where we did a lot of red/white/blue projects.

I concede the point. I was thinking more on the level of high-school classes.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto

I was saying the argument was stupid, disingenuous or naive not you.



No. Opinions don't "say" anything.

:rolleyes:


Roll your eyes all you like. If you're going to insult me with a big word, spell it right or I'll call you on it. People who cannot truly aspire to a good vocabulary shouldn't use words they haven't mastered.


What does this have to do with the issue of teaching tolerance in schools?



Don't change the subject. As you well know, this was in reference to your assertion that you know better than I what takes place in an American school.



The national anthem isn't sung? Soldiers aren't revered on Rememberance day? Schools don't observe Presidents' Day?



Is this the superficial level at which you would like to see "tolerance" taught? If not, false argument.



'Opinion' would be 'it is good to be homosexual and everyone should try it at least once'. This issue we are looking at is teaching tolerance of homosexuality in schools. That is different. If the issue were about whether children should play with matches I wonder would you be so vehement in your opinion?

'Tolerance' is 'we should respect anyone's choice of sexuality'. What you propose was more along the lines of "Homosexuality is a lifestyle equal to and just as valid as heterosexuality." With all due respect, that's an opinion.

[jimlintott]

I disagree, "teaching tolerance" is teaching kids to repress their thoughts and feelings.

What?

So some kid beats my son to within an inch of his life and claims "hey, gays make me feel angry." This is OK? We wouldn't want to make him feel bad. The reality is that sometimes we have to behave in a way that is contrary to our feelings.

I'm atheist but I will still enter a church for a wedding or funeral. I certainly stifle my desire to debate the priest (minister or whatever) about theology.

Some of our thoughts and feelings are wrong. This is the whole idea behind disciplining children. "I think I feel like eating a whole bag of cookies, but Daddy will get angry and punish me somehow."

Why shouldn't tolerance be taught (encouraged) in school?

In my opinion patriotism is almost the opposite of tolerance and should not be taught. There seems to be a fine line between pride and thinking you're better than everyone else.

[ssibal]

How about teaching children in school real subjects (math, reading, science, history,.....etc) instead of someones idea of what is right or wrong?

[Nitpick]

Originally posted by Tony
I disagree, "teaching tolerance" is teaching kids to repress their thoughts and feelings.

Please enlighten me:
What exactly are the thoughts and feelings someone will have to repress in order to be tolerant?
And are you sure those thoughts and feelings are worth to be saved from repression? Really?
Even if they are the thoughts and feelings of some fanatic who hates you/your race/your beliefs/your country for no reason you or any reasonable person will ever be able to understand?

-----------

dictionary.com: (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tolerance)

tol·er·ance ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tlr-ns)
n.
1. The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.
.............

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by ssibal
How about teaching children in school real subjects (math, reading, science, history,.....etc) instead of someones idea of what is right or wrong?

You can do it with math, you can do it with reading, you might just be able to do it with science, but how are you going to teach history without getting into what someone thinks is right or wrong? History is very much the interpretation of the teller. You are living in a fool's paradise if you think that education is not a moral minefield.

[ssibal]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto

...but how are you going to teach history without getting into what someone thinks is right or wrong? History is very much the interpretation of the teller. You are living in a fool's paradise if you think that education is not a moral minefield.

That is simple, you do not inject your opinions into the subject matter. If a teacher is incapable of teaching history without expressing their opinion of what was right or wrong then I do not think they should be teaching that subject. History should be about the facts only.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by ssibal


That is simple, you do not inject your opinions into the subject matter. If a teacher is incapable of teaching history without expressing their opinion of what was right or wrong then I do not think they should be teaching that subject. History should be about the facts only.

I take it you haven't studied history very much.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Nitpick



What exactly are the thoughts and feelings someone will have to repress in order to be tolerant?


"Tolerating" something implies that the person has an objection or finds something disagreable about another person. In "teaching tolerance" you are teaching a person to ignore or repress thier disagrement. Why dont we teach them to work out their disagreement in civil and rational debate?


And are you sure those thoughts and feelings are worth to be saved from repression? Really?

Mabey, but a person should make that choice for themselves. They should not be compelled to do so by the state.

Even if they are the thoughts and feelings of some fanatic who hates you/your race/your beliefs/your country for no reason you or any reasonable person will ever be able to understand?

Let them hate me, they have freedom of thought right? But when they cross the line, I have a problem with it.

[ssibal]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


I take it you haven't studied history very much.

What are you implying? That someone cannot teach that the Europeans killed the indigenous American populations without saying "that was very wrong of the Europeans" or "those stupid indians deserverd to get killed?"

[Mr Manifesto]

How did Egypt come to be in a position to florish in the Middle Kingdom? Was it because of Thutmose III or Hatshepsut? Your answer depends on your ideology.

[jimlintott]

In "teaching tolerance" you are teaching a person to ignore or repress thier disagrement. Why dont we teach them to work out their disagreement in civil and rational debate?

I tolerate stupid people. They amuse me and I give them the benefit of the doubt. No amount of rational civil debate will make them less stupid.

Tolerance or lack of it isn't always about disagreements that can be solved by talking it out. If one of my queer friends sits down and debates with a homophobe he might make that person less homphobic but he likely won't become less gay.

I do agree that we should teach civil and rational debate. Maybe I'm being shallow but I can't help but feel that if we aren't teaching tolerance then we are teaching intolerance.

Think of the children!! :D

[Tony]

I dunno, mabey you're right. I am just speaking for myself. I dont tolerate gay people, honestly, I dont care. I am niether "tolerant" or "intolerant". If someone is gay, it doesnt even bother be, "tolerance" never enters my mind. It just is. And I came to this attitude by thinking logically.

[ssibal]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
How did Egypt come to be in a position to florish in the Middle Kingdom? Was it because of Thutmose III or Hatshepsut? Your answer depends on your ideology.

Big difference between different interpretations for how something happened and expressing your opinion as to whether something that happened was right or wrong.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by ssibal


Big difference between different interpretations for how something happened and expressing your opinion as to whether something that happened was right or wrong.

My point is, history is all about interpretations. And I'm sure you can think of a few other subjects taught in school equally open to opinion and interpretation. Schools are not, never have been, and never will be moral-free zones.

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by Hegel
One solution for this problem I thought of was teaching homosexuality in school sex education programs, as an acceptable alternative to hetrosexual sex.
Parents who believe homosexuality is a sin won't be happy with this approach. Although I would disagree with them, I recognize that they are entitled to their opinion.

How kids learn a few things about sexuality in school:

A percentage of school teachers are gay. Kids usually figure this stuff out. The information becomes the subject of much speculation and humor.

If a kid is overheard making comments about a certain teacher or other adult being queer, he's usually reprimanded. He's told, "What you said is rude, for one. And secondly, so-and-so's personal life is none of your business."

I think the "tolerance" issue can be subsumed under the right to privacy. Luckily, teaching about the right to privacy won't freak parents out so much as teaching about "tolerating gays."

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


It does.

I side against top-down socialization requirements for the public schools, no matter how well intentioned they are.

MattJ

But there is a top-down socialization requirement in place right now, it teaches only heterosexuality and acts like homosexuality doesn't exist.

I agree that talking about sex to teenagers is embarassing enough for them as it is, talking about homosexuality would be even more so.

I have read, though, that teaching kids about sex at puberty is too late. Like walking and talking, they need to understand about themselves at a younger age to get the full benefit. By the time they are teenagers, in a sexual knowledge vacuum, they may have already started to veer off into random sexual craziness by themselves.

[plindboe]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
But there is a top-down socialization requirement in place right now, it teaches only heterosexuality and acts like homosexuality doesn't exist.

Excellent point! :)


Personally I feel that schools shouldn't teach morals or tolerance. Kids most be taught how to think for themselves. They should be presented by all the facts available, and from those they can decide what to believe is right or wrong, based on the morals that have been passed on to them by their parents. Often tolerance increases the more info there is about the issue, so tolerance will probably be a consequence none the less.

Information about sexual preferences shouldn't be ignored in schools, since this issue is a big part of our world today(5% gay maybe???). Also considering the problems these 5% go through when they begin to discover their own sexual preference, growing up in a world where they get the impression that it doesn't exist, because of the lack of education dealing with the subject.

Peter ;)

[ssibal]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


My point is, history is all about interpretations. And I'm sure you can think of a few other subjects taught in school equally open to opinion and interpretation. Schools are not, never have been, and never will be moral-free zones.

But teaching different interpretations is not the same as teaching morality. I think morality has no place in school.

[Mr Manifesto]

by sundog
Roll your eyes all you like. If you're going to insult me with a big word, spell it right or I'll call you on it. People who cannot truly aspire to a good vocabulary shouldn't use words they haven't mastered.


You 'called' me on a typo. It happens that I know how to spell disingenuous. But you are correct you should be doing what you do best and keeping this forum safe from misspellings and typos. Keep calling.







PS- you managed to miss a few other misspellings I made. Better correct me.

---
edit

I notice you edited your post to remove any typos and misspellings you made. I can see you are a master strategist as well as a master proofreader.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman

The more than horizontal somethings well covered by cloth?


You say 'well-covered'. The students who can walk into my office at any time might not see it that way.

MattJ

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


But there is a top-down socialization requirement in place right now, it teaches only heterosexuality and acts like homosexuality doesn't exist.

Please supply evidence of your assertion that schools are forced (top down) to act like homosexuality doesn't exist.

I think you'll find that many schools do not ignore the existence of homosexuality. If you can find something that shows otherwise, I stand ready to oppose that top-down requirement, as I do all others.

MattJ

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
by sundog

I can see you are a master strategist as well as a master proofreader.

Thank you, I see you are a master baiter.

Refrain from insulting me, and you'll find I treat you with the same respect I try to treat others here with.

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


You say 'well-covered'. The students who can walk into my office at any time might not see it that way.

MattJ

Hmm, I doubt it would be a problem over here - actually I'm pretty sure.

How about the same picture without the erections. Would that be acceptable.

I think we should start a thread about this, just to see the different perceptions of what is work-safe and what's not...

Zee

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Sundog


Thank you, I see you are a master baiter.

Refrain from insulting me, and you'll find I treat you with the same respect I try to treat others here with.

I don't see how I can refrain from insulting you- you take the mildest comment as an 'insult'.

We'll comprimise. I won't insult you if you do not see an enemy in every shadow. Deal?

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


I don't see how I can refrain from insulting you- you take the mildest comment as an 'insult'.

We'll comprimise. I won't insult you if you do not see an enemy in every shadow. Deal?

Deal, buddy! ;)

Give me a chance, I'm not such a jerk as you think.