What makes humans humans?

[Hegel]

What is the essential "humanness" that makes us what we are, and not something else, i.e. what is it that makes humans humans?

I think that our ability to use language, defined as an infinately recombinatorial communication device makes us unique and human.

What do you think?

[arcticpenguin]

I think it's the content of our chromosomes.

[Akots]

Our souls make us human.

Of course my defenition of a soul is "That which makes us human."

Sort of a run-around, but it works for me.

[Upchurch]

Empathy for others?

[arcticpenguin]

So, if its empathy or language, do we cease to be human if we go into a coma?

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
So, if its empathy or language, do we cease to be human if we go into a coma?

Yes we cease. But, because the remaining humans still have empathy they treat the (no longer human) as a Human.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

What makes us human is the willingness to eat live worms and bull testicles for the chance at a new automobile.

~~ Paul

[Frostbite]

We play hockey.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Hegel
What is the essential "humanness" that makes us what we are, and not something else, i.e. what is it that makes humans humans?

I think that our ability to use language, defined as an infinately recombinatorial communication device makes us unique and human.

What do you think? I think it would be the ability to conceptualize the question: " What makes humans human?"

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
So, if its empathy or language, do we cease to be human if we go into a coma?
Revised: we have the capacity to empathize with others?

[chance]

Upchurch Yep have to agree the ability to empathise (or metaphorically get into the mind of another), can’t remember what documentary I saw that in, but they made a big point on empathy (and our ability to lie), it was all tied together very well.

I also favour our ability to link cause and effect or predictive ability.

[c4ts]

It is the nature of man to yearn towards knowledge.

[plindboe]

Originally posted by Upchurch

Revised: we have the capacity to empathize with others?

Psychopaths aren't capable to empathize. :p

So they aren't humans?

Peter ;)

[plindboe]

Originally posted by chance
Upchurch Yep have to agree the ability to empathise (or metaphorically get into the mind of another), can’t remember what documentary I saw that in, but they made a big point on empathy (and our ability to lie), it was all tied together very well.

I also favour our ability to link cause and effect or predictive ability.

I used to have a dog, that pretended she couldn't hear me when I called her name. I was so obvious sometimes, and quite amusing too. That could be perceived as a way of lying. Since animals doesn't communicate via talking, it is of course difficult for us humans to find out if they have the ability to lie or not.

I would say that our genetic code alone would tell if we're humans or not. We could of course mention feelings or other traits that we believe exist only in humans, but somewhere out there on a distant planet an alien race might exist that have the exact same feelings and emotions. It might be highly unlikely but not something we can rule out. That they possess these same emotions wouldn't neccessarily make them human. If they had the same genetic code as humans though, then I would say they were humans.

Peter ;)

[Denise]

The ability to contemplate our existance and our death.

[chance]

plindboe Psychopaths aren't capable to empathize So they aren't humans? I think you mean a sociopath. Good “all cat are dogs” argument.:)

Speaking of Dogs, I have seen working dogs feign a sore leg for sympathy to get out of work, could be a learned response rather than empathy, but it could be as close a lying a dog is able to achieve, good point.

[plindboe]

I think you mean a sociopath.
No. The terms psychopath and sociopath are interchangeable these days. Most people believe that there is a difference, but they're both used to describe the same disorder.

Look here: http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/psychopath.html

I love the first line on that page: "This is a fascinating clinical list. I leave it to you to apply these elements to any politician or talk show host you choose." :D

Peter ;)

[UnrepentantSinner]

Some day I'll dig it up, but a short article in a National Geographic a few years ago mentioned a group of monkeys who cared for one monkey who exhibited signs (behavioral and genetic after blood tests) of mental retardation.

I'll try and find it so I can give more details.

[MRC_Hans]

Feeling like humans make us human. All else is conjecture.

Language: Whales, apes have language, many animals have communication.

Tools: Apes are tool-makers.

Empathy: Many animals have empathy, apes, monkeys, whales, dogs.

Conscience: Ever seen a dog that had stolen a steak?

Etc. Any specific trait we come up with exists in non-human animals too. We are in many ways the most complex, but this is a difference in quantity, not in quality.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Ans on psycopaths, comas etc.: Once we have established our species to be humans, defective or diseased individuals are humans per genetics. Humans also have two legs, but a leggless person is still human.

Hans

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Conscience: Ever seen a dog that had stolen a steak?


Is this conscience, or conditioned behaviour? Conscience is the capacity for understanding that an act is wrong; anticipating punishment for the commission of a certain act is not quite the same thing. Otherwise, I'd agree with your list, particularly re: empathy, or more specifically caring for others, as it seems to be a capacity shown by many animals which live in social groupings. I've never seen it in fish though...

My two penn'orth on the what makes humans human would be the drive to develop and impose a symbolic ordering of the world (that should differentiate us from bees when it comes to language!).

[plindboe]

This thread makes me wonder what a nazi would reply if he was posed the same question.

Peter :)

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Ans on psycopaths, comas etc.: Once we have established our species to be humans, defective or diseased individuals are humans per genetics. Humans also have two legs, but a leggless person is still human.

Hans

Good point Hans.

The variation does not define the norm. The norm defines the variations.

[BillyTK]

I found a groovy quote:
[T]o be human, we must be compassionate. Without compassion--empathy, caritas, the paraclete--we are mere machines. And I was (still am) fascinated by the intimations of a "real " world of powerful forces--both purposive and random, both good and evil--underlying our cheap coin-operated universe. That which is real is that which has meaning; that which is evil decimates whatever meaning and form there are.

Source (http://www.srv.net/~msdata/phil_retro.html)

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by plindboe
This thread makes me wonder what a nazi would reply if he was posed the same question.

Peter :)

Dammit! I posted before I read this. Godwin's Law (http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html)* has been invoked. Move on people, there's nothing to see here.

Thanks to Thanz for the link

[MRC_Hans]

Is this conscience, or conditioned behaviour? Conscience is the capacity for understanding that an act is wrong; anticipating punishment for the commission of a certain act is not quite the same thing. Certainly not a sharp line between those. Say you're a Moslem, and you drink alcohol (moderately); that ought to give you a bad conscience. If you are a Catolic, however, it shouldn't. So that is more or less a form of conditioned behaviour.

You will notice that dogs can also show signs of bad conscience about things that are none of their fault, say a picture fell down and broke while the dog was home alone; it feels responsible for looking after the house, and something went wrong anyway. But of course this is all speculative, since we cannot actually ask an animal what it feels.

Interestingly, cats, while roughly as intelligent as dogs, seem to have no conscience at all. It must be a trait of a flock animal.

Hans

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Certainly not a sharp line between those. Say you're a Moslem, and you drink alcohol (moderately); that ought to give you a bad conscience. If you are a Catolic, however, it shouldn't. So that is more or less a form of conditioned behaviour.

You will notice that dogs can also show signs of bad conscience about things that are none of their fault, say a picture fell down and broke while the dog was home alone; it feels responsible for looking after the house, and something went wrong anyway. But of course this is all speculative, since we cannot actually ask an animal what it feels.

Interestingly, cats, while roughly as intelligent as dogs, seem to have no conscience at all. It must be a trait of a flock animal.

Hans

Hmmm--to me, the fundamental aspect of conscience is knowing in advance that the commission of certain acts is wrong. Although there's doubtless a conditioned behaviour aspect in the development of conscience (and I could digress endlessly on the variety of ways that humans generalise punishment, but I won't :) ) I'm not too sure that dogs understand that certain acts are wrong, but only that they will result in punishment (although strictly speaking in conditioning theory there's no such thing as punishment, only positive and negative re-inforcers). For instance, my dog knew that taking food without permission would result in punishment, but I'm not sure if she had a conscience because she would take any opportunity to sneak food if she thought she wasn't being detected. So it wasn't the act itself that was to be avoided, but being caught. And the way she associted being caught with the presence of humans meant it was a dead give away when she had been doing wrong.

But cats certainly are contrary creatures, aren't they? Trying to train them not to do stuff just seems to make doing stuff more attractive. It reminds me of Eddie Izzard's "Pavlov's Cat" sketch:

"Day 1: Rang bell, cat f*cked off, oh dear.
Day 2: Rang bell, cat went and answered door
Day 3: Rang bell, cat said he'd eaten earlier cheeky bugger
Day4: Went to ring bell, but cat had stolen batteries
Final day Day 5: Went to ring bell with new batteries, but cat put paw on bell so it only made a thunk noise. Then cat rang his own bell, I ate food." :D

[plindboe]

Originally posted by BillyTK
Dammit! I posted before I read this. Godwin's Law (http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html)* has been invoked. Move on people, there's nothing to see here.
LOL, sorry about that. :D Though I would say that Godwin's law is about comparison with nazis, often used when people have run out of arguments in an angry discussion, not about speculation over on how a nazi perceives the world.

Peter :)

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by plindboe

LOL, sorry about that. :D Though I would say that Godwin's law is about comparison with nazis, often used when people have run out of arguments in an angry discussion, not about speculation over on how a nazi perceives the world.

Peter :)

My apologies. I thought you were comparing how nazis perceive the world! :D

[Underemployed]

Dictionaries.

[chance]

plindboe The terms psychopath and sociopath are interchangeable these days Thanks for the correction. I always assumed a psychopath was more ‘criminal’ as opposed to sociopath being more ‘anti-social’.

[Trollbane]

Originally posted by BillyTK

I'm not too sure that dogs understand that certain acts are wrong, but only that they will result in punishment (although strictly speaking in conditioning theory there's no such thing as punishment, only positive and negative re-inforcers). For instance, my dog knew that taking food without permission would result in punishment, but I'm not sure if she had a conscience because she would take any opportunity to sneak food if she thought she wasn't being detected. So it wasn't the act itself that was to be avoided, but being caught. And the way she associted being caught with the presence of humans meant it was a dead give away when she had been doing wrong.


Ofcourse this doesnt mean anything.. The dog just didnt want to get caught and recieve the punishment, now take a group of people and say that they have the possibility to steal a certain sum of money without the risk of getting caught and tell me how many would do it :)?

On a different note concerning a similar thing my mom has three (Now only two :() dogs that were individually trained and none of them would take the food in similar situation.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Trollbane

Ofcourse this doesnt mean anything.. The dog just didnt want to get caught and recieve the punishment, now take a group of people and say that they have the possibility to steal a certain sum of money without the risk of getting caught and tell me how many would do it :)?

It is meaningful :p :); it's the difference between simple conditioned responses (avoiding negative re-inforcers) with no meaning attached to the act itself (it's a bad thing to do vs it's not a bad thing) and committing an act knowing the act is intrinsically wrong and will attract punishment on that basis. Specifically in the dog's case being caught = immediate punishment, whereas in human terms being caught = delayed punishment (or even no punishment at all depending on the quality of your lawyer ;) ). With dog and cats (many animals, in fact) we know that punishment has to be contextual (as soon as the act is discovered) otherwise they don't associate the punishment with the act. Well, to be accurate, one of my cats associates the punishment with characteristics of the person giving the punishment, and the other one doesn't give a toss either way.

[jimlintott]

Contraception. It's the only behaviour that as far as I know isn't mirrored by some other animal. (I actually hope I'm wrong about this. Someone know something to the contrary?)

Otherwise I'm with AP we're human because we aren't something else. It's in the genes.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by plindboe


Psychopaths aren't capable to empathize. :p

So they aren't humans?

Peter ;)

Don't you mean sociopaths, there are many empathetic people with psychosis.
Peace
dancing david

[Dancing David]

We and chimpanzees are the only animals with free cycling esterus, of the females I mean.

Human being is from humane being isn't it? So the compassion arguement might hold some water.

Peace
dancing David

[jimlintott]

Human being is from humane being isn't it? So the compassion arguement might hold some water.

Wouldn't that be the other way around. The word humane comes from the word human.

I wonder if we were all humane all the time would we have a word for it?

[neutrino_cannon]

But for the lack of sagital crest, apes and humans aren't all that different. Certainly different to warrant the taxonomical differences betwixt'um though.

Most of the definitions invoked here, however have been based on psychology rather than physiology.

[chance]

jimlintott Contraception. It's the only behaviour that as far as I know isn't mirrored by some other animal Well it’s not quite contraception, but some animals have a ‘voluntary’ non breeding life styles. E.g only the ‘alpha’ pair produce offspring while the remainder don’t mate. I think I have also read that female Bonobo Chimps will mate with non-alpha males when they are not in season but will only mate with the alpha male in season.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Dancing David


Don't you mean sociopaths, there are many empathetic people with psychosis.
Peace
dancing david

Psychosis (http://www.xrefer.com/entry.jsp?xrefid=513512&secid=.-&hh=1) is the collective term for a range of psychiatric disorders including schizophrenia and manic-depressive illness, whereas psychopathy (http://www.xrefer.com/entry.jsp?xrefid=513511&secid=.-&hh=1) is a specific disorder characterised by an inability to empathise with others. Although saying that, most people demonstrate some degree of psychopathic behaviour in some aspects of their lives, and it's not inevitable that people with psychopathic disorders will commit violent acts.