Unethical conversion of tsunami victims.

[Ryokan]

The article revealing the methods and tactics of Christian relief organizations was first published by the Swedish Svenska Dagbladet (http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/inrikes/did_11440008.asp), but I read it first in the Norwegian Dagbladet. (http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2006/01/02/453624.html)

I will translate a few paragraphs from both, and write SvD behind quotes taken from the Swedish newspaper, and NoD behind those taken from the Norwegian one.

Många thailändska barn känner sig utnyttjade och kränkta av frireligiösa organisationer efter tsunamin. Såväl Rädda Barnen som lokala thailändska organisationer upprörs över att vissa kristna hjälporganisationer villkorar hjälpen till de srabbade. (SvD)

Many Thai children feel they have been exploited by evangelical organizations after the tsunami. Save The Children and local Thai organizations are in uproar over how some Christian relief organizations set conditions for helping the victims.

Flodbølgeofre blir tvangskristnet og kjenner seg utnyttet av hjelpearbeidere. Det kommer fram i en ny rapport laget av svenske og britiske Redd Barna sammen med Unicef, ifølge Svenska Dagbladet.

Organisasjonene har intervjuet 5000 barn i de tsunamirammede områdene.

Det er ikke kjent hvilke organisasjoner som tvangskristner ofrene, men det skal spesielt gjelde amerikanske frikirkelige hjelpeorganisasjoner.

- Det er et sammensurium av organisasjoner som sloss om menneskenes oppmerksomhet. I visse områder har det blitt som på 1800-tallet, når misjonærer krevde omvendelse for at folk skulle få mat og klær, sier Inger Östergren fra Redd Barna i Bangkok, regionalt ansvarig for kystområdene i Sørøst-Asia, til Svd. (NoD)

The tsunami victims are forced into Christianity and feel exploited by the relief workers. This is revealed in a new report made by the Swedish and British Save The Children together with UNICEF, says Svenska Dagbaldet.

The organization has interviewed 5000 children in the tsunami disaster areas.

It's not known which organizations who force the victims into Christianity, but it's supposed to be especially American evangelical relief organizations.

- There are many organizations here who fight for the attention of the people here. In some areas it has become like in the 1800's, when missionaries demanded convertion before they gave out food and clothes, says Inger Östergren from Save The Children in Bangkok, who is regional manager for the coastal areas of South East Asia, to Svenska Dagbladet.

Svd har besøkt et av de lokale barnehjemmene, og funnet bemerkelsesverdig mange barn med t-skjorter med kristne budskap. Barna kommer fra buddhistiske hjem, og kan ikke selv forklare hva det som står på t-skjortene betyr.

I undersøkelsen kommer det fram at mange barn kjenner seg krenket og utnyttet av organisasjonene. Barna har tegnet og fortalt om sine erfaringer, og den røde tråden i svarene er at hjelpen fra utenlandske frikirkeorganisasjoner har blitt opplevd som påtrengende og krenkende.

Personalet på barnehjemmet kan fortelle at representanter for religiøse organisasjoner har tilbudt ny bolig, mat och klær, mot at befolkningen lar seg omvende. (NoD)

Svenska Dagbladet has visited one of the local orphanages, and found a large amount of children with t-shirts with Christian messages. The children came from Buddhist homes and couldn't explain what the messages on their t-shirts meant.

The report reveals that many children feel violated and exploited by the organizations. The children have drawn and told about their experiences, and one common element in the answers is that the help from foreign evangelical organizations have been experienced as intrusive and injurious.

The personell at the orphanage told the newspaper that representatives of religious organizations have offered new houses, food and clothes in exchange for convertion.

– Om du inte blir kristen kan du inte få någon hjälp av Gud är budskapet, berättar Marinee Charenperd, en 35–årig väverska som hjälper till på barnhemmet i mån av tid.

Hennes hus försvann och hon förlorade en bror och två brorssöner i katastrofen. En tid senare fick hon erbjudande om att få hjälp att bygga upp sitt hus igen, men bara om hon gick över till kristendomen.

– Jag sa nej men jag har bekanta som accepterat och blivit hjälpta, berättar hon.

Liknande vittnesmål finns också återgivna i dagstidningen Bangkok Post. (SvD)

- If you don't convert to Christianity and become a Christian, God won't help you, is the message we're given, says Marinee Charenperd, a 35-year-old seamstress who helps at the orphanage from time to time.

Her house was lost in the disaster and she lost a brother and two nephews. Later she got an offer to have her house rebuilt, but only if she converted to Christianity.

- I said no, men I know people who have accepted and been helped, she says.

Similar stories have been published in the newspaper Bangkok Post.

– Självklart accepterar vi bidrag även från kristna organisationer, men vi vill inte att det ska ställas några villkor för hjälpen, säger Rotjana Phraesrithong. (SvD)

Of course we accept aid from Christian organizations, but we don't want them to set conditions for the aid, says Rotjana Phraesrithong (owner of the orphanage that the SvD visited).

http://www.svd.se/images/ettan2006/060101/thai339.jpg

10-year-old Mucc Nomnois, a Buddhist girl, with a t-shirt that says 'God loves you'.

These people are scum. Pure scum.

But I'm sad that this is what it took for the West to notice what's going on in the poor areas of Asia, and probably other parts of the world as well. These unethical conversions are nothing new, they've been going on for as long as missionaries have been going there. Sri Lanka has passed a law banning unethical conversions of any kind, and even the Roman Catholic Church has expressed disgust with the methods some evangelical organizations have used.

I have nothing nice to say about these people. They're scum, pure and simple.

[Ryokan]

I can't believe no one has commented on this one, is no one as appaled as I am?

[l0rca]

I did comment, but it didn't show up. I get into a "screw the system" mood when that happens.

I'm glad you brought this to my attention. Randi should comment about it.

And it's cliche, but I have to say it: I'd be surprised that the media would care to show us.

[Skeptical Greg]

The major U.S. News players need to be hammered with this...

[jjramsey]

I can't believe no one has commented on this one, is no one as appaled as I am?

Other than "AAAAAAGGHHHHH!!", there's not much more to say.:(

[rharbers]

"The tsunami victims are forced into Christianity and feel exploited by the relief workers."

How can someone be forced to convert?



"It's not known which organizations who force the victims into Christianity, but it's supposed to be especially American evangelical relief organizations."

Sounds like "Let's cry about the Americans again." I'm about as skeptical of all this as I can be. "It's not known...but it's supposed to be...Americans!

[l0rca]

Sounds like "Let's cry about the Americans again." I'm about as skeptical of all this as I can be. "It's not known...but it's supposed to be...Americans!

It's consistent with the American outlook on religion. True that most countries are religious, but America is one of the most fundamental.

[rharbers]

It's consistent with the American outlook on religion. True that most countries are religious, but America is one of the most fundamental.

It's consistent, but is it true?

[l0rca]

It's consistent, but is it true?

It was published by two newpapers from different countries. It's also consistent, and typical. I don't see a good reason to think it's false.

[Ryokan]

"The tsunami victims are forced into Christianity and feel exploited by the relief workers."

How can someone be forced to convert?

That's pretty easy, when you don't have a home, food or clothes.



"It's not known which organizations who force the victims into Christianity, but it's supposed to be especially American evangelical relief organizations."

Sounds like "Let's cry about the Americans again." I'm about as skeptical of all this as I can be. "It's not known...but it's supposed to be...Americans!

Problems with translations, and the kids' young age. You don't expect them to know the difference between different Christian relief organizations, or even between Americans and different European nationalities, do you?

Would you know the differene between different Buddhist denominations and the accents and languages of the different nationalities in South East Asia?

Besides, as I said, unethical conversions are nothing new.

http://www.fisiusa.org/fisi_News_items/news567.htm

This article was found here :

http://www.lankaweb.com/news/conversion.html

[Ryokan]

It was published by two newpapers from different countries. It's also consistent, and typical. I don't see a good reason to think it's false.

Save the Children hasn't published their report yet. When they do, hopefully that will be proof enough.

[rharbers]

I stand corrected. To save my family I'd convert to worshipping Zeus and the Olympian gods if that is what it took. But it wouldn't be a real conversion. I's get my house, clothes and food, then I'd do something to get excommunicated. Those folks are nuts, but they want real conversions.

[Ryokan]

I stand corrected. To save my family I'd convert to worshipping Zeus and the Olympian gods if that is what it took. But it wouldn't be a real conversion. I's get my house, clothes and food, then I'd do something to get excommunicated. Those folks are nuts, but they want real conversions.

If the entire state of Texas was invaded by Zeuz missionaries, who converted a big block of the population into Zeuzism through unethical means, tore down churches and built big Zeus temples and raised children through Zeuz schools who taught that Zeuz was the only way and that all other religions were false and led to Hades, I think you'd probably voice your concerns over what was happening.

To put it mildly.

[l0rca]

To put it mildly.

I hear they're not Buddhists in texas. ;)

[rharbers]

If the entire state of Texas was invaded by Zeuz missionaries, who converted a big block of the population into Zeuzism through unethical means, tore down churches and built big Zeus temples and raised children through Zeuz schools who taught that Zeuz was the only way and that all other religions were false and led to Hades, I think you'd probably voice your concerns over what was happening.

To put it mildly.

They may try, but here in Texas a man still has the freedom to think on his own. Besides, we like Thor's Hammer better.

[rharbers]

If the entire state of Texas was invaded by Zeuz missionaries, who converted a big block of the population into Zeuzism through unethical means, tore down churches and built big Zeus temples and raised children through Zeuz schools who taught that Zeuz was the only way and that all other religions were false and led to Hades, I think you'd probably voice your concerns over what was happening.

To put it mildly.

They may try, but here in Texas a man still has the freedom to think on his own. Besides, we like Thor's Hammer better.

But seriously, I know what you mean. I'm told I'm going to hell several times a year. I say "Good, that's where I want to go!" They just leave me alone then.

[Ryokan]

They may try, but here in Texas a man still has the freedom to think on his own.

Lucky you, children orphaned by a tsunami often don't have that freedom.

And there's some nasty people out to exploit it.

[rharbers]

Lucky you, children orphaned by a tsunami often don't have that freedom.

And there's some nasty people out to exploit it.

Agreed. Let's hope the Buddists and the Muslims put a stop to it.

[Huntster]

Agreed. Let's hope the Buddists and the Muslims put a stop to it.

They could have "put a stop to it" before it ever started by actually responding to the disaster.

One good way to keep those nasty Christians out of your life is to refuse to accept their largess.

[Ryokan]

They could have "put a stop to it" before it ever started by actually responding to the disaster.

One good way to keep those nasty Christians out of your life is to refuse to accept their largess.

Are you saying that only Christian organizations responded to the tsunami disaster?

[Huntster]

Are you saying that only Christian organizations responded to the tsunami disaster?

No.

I'm saying that Christian organizations and relief organizations from predominately Christian nations were by far the majority of the relief effort.

[ImaginalDisc]

They could have "put a stop to it" before it ever started by actually responding to the disaster.

One good way to keep those nasty Christians out of your life is to refuse to accept their largess.

Charity is meant to be freely given. Making it conditional on a religous conversion is despicable. No person who insists that a naked child "welcome Jesus into their heart" before giving that child clothes should dare call themselves chartiable, or christian.

[ImaginalDisc]

No.

I'm saying that Christian organizations and relief organizations from predominately Christian nations were by far the majority of the relief effort.

That is untrue. Please, attempt to support that assertion. The largest donors were private citizens, donating whatever they could spare, from all religions.

[Huntster]

...Making it conditional on a religous conversion is despicable.....

Do you have some evidence that aid was withheld from those who expressed no interest in religious conversion?

[ImaginalDisc]

Do you have some evidence that aid was withheld from those who expressed no interest in religious conversion?

Yes Ryokan's articles, which you are welcome to read.

[Ryokan]

That is untrue. Please, attempt to support that assertion. The largest donors were private citizens, donating whatever they could spare, from all religions.

Also, the single largest donor was the Japanese government. Japan is not a Christian nation.

[ImaginalDisc]

Also, the single largest donor was the Japanese government. Japan is not a Christian nation.

Wow, I guess when you don't have a gigantic war machine to feed, charity's doable.

[Huntster]

That is untrue. Please, attempt to support that assertion. The largest donors were private citizens, donating whatever they could spare, from all religions.

Would you believe Aljazeera? (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/3FEBA6A3-D338-4176-860E-8BEE68C83127.htm):

...The following is a selected list of contributions pledged:
AUSTRALIA: $27 million, five air force transport planes with supplies and medical teams as well as team of police.
BRAZIL: Sent air force plane with up to 10 tonnes of food and 6-8 tonnes of medicine to Thailand.
BRITAIN: 15 million pounds ($29 million).
CAMBODIA: $40,000.
CANADA: Government aid C$40 million ($33 million). Private
donations to non-governmental organisations such as Red Cross exceeds C$8.5 million.
CHINA: 21.6 million yuan ($2.6 million).
CZECH REPUBLIC: A plane sent to Sri Lanka with drinking
water. Officials said aid worth $444,400 would be sent.
EUROPEAN UNION: Ready to release up to 30 million euros ($41 million) on top of 3 million euros already allocated to IFRC.
FINLAND: Pledged 500,000 euros to the IFRC. Local
aid organisations have contributed another 75,000 euros. The Finnish Red Cross has sent a field hospital with 15 staff to Sri Lanka.
FRANCE: 15 million euros pledged and 110 tonnes of aid, along with 16 rescuers sent to Thailand.
GERMANY: 2 million euros. Three German planes to be dispatched to Phuket.
INDIA: Has promised over $23 million in monetary aid besides sending warships and aircraft to distribute food, medicines and blankets to Sri Lanka and the Maldives.
JAPAN: $40 million pledged, more than 120 medical and rescue personnel and three navy vessels sent.
KUWAIT: Supplies worth $2 million pledged and $100,000 sent.
QATAR: $10 million
SAUDI ARABIA: $10 million package pledged, half to be distributed via the Saudi Red Crescent, and half for international aid groups.
SLOVAKIA: Sent plane with drinking water, tents and medicine
to Sri Lanka; aid worth 6.6 million Slovak crowns ($231,660).
SLOVENIA: Donating 20 million tolars ($113,500) through International Red Cross and Crescent.
SOUTH KOREA: $2 million.
TAIWAN: $5.1 million.
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES: $2 million.
UNITED STATES: $35 million and 12 vessels to region....

My math shows approximately $327 million from Christian nations, and $97 million from non-Christian nations.

Yes, most donations were private donations to groups and organizations.

Most disaster relief comes from Western countries, both from governments as well as private donations administered by relief organizations. It has been that way for a long time.

[Ryokan]

My math shows approximately $327 million from Christian nations, and $97 million from non-Christian nations.

Define 'Christian nation'.

Most disaster relief comes from Western countries, both from governments as well as private donations administered by relief organizations. It has been that way for a long time.

Yes, strange how it's always the rich parts of the world that gives the most aid.

[Huntster]

Define 'Christian nation'.

A nation in which the predominant religion is Christianity.

[jjramsey]

My math shows approximately $327 million from Christian nations, and $97 million from non-Christian nations.

You are presuming that Western=Christian. For Europe, this is a dodgy proposition, and even for the much more religious U.S., it's still questionable.

[Huntster]

...Yes, strange how it's always the rich parts of the world that gives the most aid.

I believe the richest nations on Earth per capita are nations in the Middle East.

[kmortis]

A nation in which the predominant religion is Christianity.
So, let me get this right. I pledge $100 to some aid organization. I live in the US. The majority religion is Christianity. Therefor my pledge (from a rather openly avowed atheist) is counted as "Christian"? Interesting, flawed, but interesting.

[jjramsey]

(deleted double post)

[ImaginalDisc]

Double post.

[ImaginalDisc]

I believe the richest nations on Earth per capita are nations in the Middle East.

Oh?

From the CIA world factbook

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ja.html

The US has the largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world, with a per capita GDP of $40,100.

Saudi Arabia

GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $12,000 (2004 est.)

Japan

GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $29,400 (2004 est.)

The award for richest nation in the world goes to, the United States!

[jj]

Sounds like "Let's cry about the Americans again." I'm about as skeptical of all this as I can be. "It's not known...but it's supposed to be...Americans!

Well, which country puts strings on its foreign aid, medical aid, etc, that forces countries who accept it to be anti-birth control, anti-abortion, etc?
"America" has been know to push religious morals at people before, you know.

[Ryokan]

Oh?

From the CIA world factbook

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ja.html

The US has the largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world, with a per capita GDP of $40,100.

The award for richest nation in the world goes to, the United States!

Norway

GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $40,000

Damn, beaten by $100 :p

Btw, why isn't Norway on Al-Jazeera's list? We gave more than the EU combined.

Not that it matters.

And it's a shame we're off topic, it's an important issue.

Even granting that Christian nations gave more (which I won't grant, but just for argument's sake), does that excuse the behaviour of these people?

Is it charity if you set conditions?

[ImaginalDisc]

To be fair, the U.S. is #2 in per capita purchasing parity, right behind Luxembourg, but our total GDP is the highest in the world. The entire EU combined is smaller.

Lu:

GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $58,900 (2004 est.)

Edit, the CIA's list. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html

Rank Order - GDP (purchasing power parity)




Countries for which no information is available are not included in this list.

Rank Country GDP (purchasing power parity) Date of Information

1 World $ 55,500,000,000,000 2004 est.
2 United States $ 11,750,000,000,000 2004 est.
3 European Union $ 11,650,000,000,000 2004 est.
4 China $ 7,262,000,000,000 2004 est.
5 Japan $ 3,745,000,000,000 2004 est.
6 India $ 3,319,000,000,000 2004 est.
7 Germany $ 2,362,000,000,000 2004 est.
8 United Kingdom $ 1,782,000,000,000 2004 est.
9 France $ 1,737,000,000,000 2004 est.
10 Italy $ 1,609,000,000,000 2004 est.
11 Brazil $ 1,492,000,000,000 2004 est.
12 Russia $ 1,408,000,000,000 2004 est.
13 Canada $ 1,023,000,000,000 2004 est.
14 Mexico $ 1,006,000,000,000 2004 est.
15 Spain $ 937,600,000,000 2004 est.
16 Korea, South $ 925,100,000,000 2004 est.
17 Indonesia $ 827,400,000,000 2004 est.
18 Australia $ 611,700,000,000 2004 est.
19 Taiwan $ 576,200,000,000 2004 est.
20 Thailand $ 524,800,000,000 2004 est.
21 Iran $ 516,700,000,000 2004 est.
22 Turkey $ 508,700,000,000 2004 est.
23 South Africa $ 491,400,000,000 2004 est.
24 Argentina $ 483,500,000,000 2004 est.
25 Netherlands $ 481,100,000,000 2004 est.
26 Poland $ 463,000,000,000 2004 est.
27 Philippines $ 430,600,000,000 2004 est.
28 Pakistan $ 347,300,000,000 2004 est.
29 Egypt $ 316,300,000,000 2004 est.
30 Belgium $ 316,200,000,000 2004 est.
31 Saudi Arabia $ 310,200,000,000 2004 est.



Indonesia, a prominent recipient of Tsumani aid is #17, Saudi Arabia's #31. I think the claim that the middle eastern countries are the richest in the world is, how shall I say, false.

[jj]

Charity is meant to be freely given. Making it conditional on a religous conversion is despicable. No person who insists that a naked child "welcome Jesus into their heart" before giving that child clothes should dare call themselves chartiable, or christian.

Well, I know someone who was homeless for a while. His stories about the missions and how you had to bow your head to get the soup rather do suggest that this isn't an atypical thing.

I don't know about the charities around this area, my information comes from the NJ area.

I wonder, does anyone know how it works these days in the USA?

[jj]

Indonesia, a prominent recipient of Tsumani aid is #17, Saudi Arabia's #31. I think the claim that the middle eastern countries are the richest in the world is, how shall I say, false.

How about per capita?

Comparing donations and purchasing power both per capita seems like the only reasonable way to do this.

[ImaginalDisc]

How about per capita?

Comparing donations and purchasing power both per capita seems like the only reasonable way to do this.

I was hoping you wouldn't ask.


Rank Order - GDP - per capita


Countries for which no information is available are not included in this list.
Rank Country GDP - per capita Date of Information
1 Luxembourg $ 58,900 2004 est.
2 United States $ 40,100 2004 est.
3 Guernsey $ 40,000 2003 est.
4 Norway $ 40,000 2004 est.
5 Jersey $ 40,000 2003 est.
6 British Virgin Islands $ 38,500 2004 est.
7 Bermuda $ 36,000 2003 est.
8 San Marino $ 34,600 2001 est.
9 Hong Kong $ 34,200 2004 est.
10 Switzerland $ 33,800 2004 est.
11 Cayman Islands $ 32,300 2004 est.
12 Denmark $ 32,200 2004 est.
13 Ireland $ 31,900 2004 est.
14 Iceland $ 31,900 2004 est.
15 Canada $ 31,500 2004 est.
16 Austria $ 31,300 2004 est.
17 Australia $ 30,700 2004 est.
18 Belgium $ 30,600 2004 est.
19 United Kingdom $ 29,600 2004 est.
20 Netherlands $ 29,500 2004 est.
21 Japan $ 29,400 2004 est.
22 Finland $ 29,000 2004 est.
23 France $ 28,700 2004 est.
24 Germany $ 28,700 2004 est.
25 Man, Isle of $ 28,500 2003 est.
26 Sweden $ 28,400 2004 est.
27 Aruba $ 28,000 2002 est.
28 Gibraltar $ 27,900 2000 est.
29 Singapore $ 27,800 2004 est.
30 Italy $ 27,700 2004 est.
31 Monaco $ 27,000 2000 est.
32 European Union $ 26,900 2004 est.
33 Andorra $ 26,800 2003 est.
34 Taiwan $ 25,300 2004 est.
35 United Arab Emirates $ 25,200 2004 est.
36 Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas) $ 25,000 2002 est.
37 Liechtenstein $ 25,000 1999 est.
38 Brunei $ 23,600 2003 est.
39 Spain $ 23,300 2004 est.
40 New Zealand $ 23,200 2004 est.
41 Qatar $ 23,200 2004 est.
42 Faroe Islands $ 22,000 2001 est.
43 Greece $ 21,300 2004 est.
44 Kuwait $ 21,300 2004 est.
45 Guam $ 21,000 2000 est.
46 Israel $ 20,800 2004 est.
47 Cyprus $ 20,300 2004 est.
48 Greenland $ 20,000 2001 est.
49 Slovenia $ 19,600 2004 est.
50 Macau $ 19,400 2003
51 Bahrain $ 19,200 2004 est.
52 Korea, South $ 19,200 2004 est.
53 Malta $ 18,200 2004 est.
54 Portugal $ 17,900 2004 est.
55 Bahamas, The $ 17,700 2004 est.
56 Puerto Rico $ 17,700 2004 est.
57 French Polynesia $ 17,500 2003 est.
58 Virgin Islands $ 17,200 2002 est.
59 Czech Republic $ 16,800 2004 est.
60 Barbados $ 16,400 2004 est.
61 New Caledonia $ 15,000 2003 est.
62 Hungary $ 14,900 2004 est.
63 Slovakia $ 14,500 2004 est.
64 Uruguay $ 14,500 2004 est.
65 Martinique $ 14,400 2003 est.
66 Estonia $ 14,300 2004 est.
67 Oman $ 13,100 2004 est.
68 Mauritius $ 12,800 2004 est.
69 Northern Mariana Islands $ 12,500 2000 est.
70 Lithuania $ 12,500 2004 est.
71 Argentina $ 12,400 2004 est.
72 Poland $ 12,000 2004 est.
73 Saudi Arabia $ 12,000 2004 est.
74 Latvia $ 11,500 2004 est.
75 Turks and Caicos Islands $ 11,500 2002 est.
76 Netherlands Antilles $ 11,400 2003 est.
77 Croatia $ 11,200 2004 est.
78 South Africa $ 11,100 2004 est.
79 Antigua and Barbuda $ 11,000 2002 est.
80 Chile $ 10,700 2004 est.
81 Trinidad and Tobago $ 10,500 2004 est.
82 Russia $ 9,800 2004 est.
83 Malaysia $ 9,700 2004 est.
84 Costa Rica $ 9,600 2004 est.
85 Mexico $ 9,600 2004 est.
86 Botswana $ 9,200 2004 est.
87 Palau $ 9,000 2001 est.
88 Saint Kitts and Nevis $ 8,800 2002 est.
89 World $ 8,800 2004 est.
90 French Guiana $ 8,300 2003 est.
91 Bulgaria $ 8,200 2004 est.
92 Brazil $ 8,100 2004 est.
93 Thailand $ 8,100 2004 est.
94 American Samoa $ 8,000 2000 est.
95 Guadeloupe $ 7,900 2003 est.
96 Kazakhstan $ 7,800 2004 est.
97 Seychelles $ 7,800 2002 est.
98 Iran $ 7,700 2004 est.
99 Romania $ 7,700 2004 est.
100 Anguilla $ 7,500 2002 est.
101 Turkey $ 7,400 2004 est.
102 Namibia $ 7,300 2004 est.
103 Cyprus $ 7,135 2004 est.
104 Macedonia $ 7,100 2004 est.
105 Tunisia $ 7,100 2004 est.
106 Saint Pierre and Miquelon $ 7,000 2001 est.
107 Panama $ 6,900 2004 est.
108 Belarus $ 6,800 2004 est.
109 Libya $ 6,700 2004 est.
110 Algeria $ 6,600 2004 est.
111 Colombia $ 6,600 2004 est.
112 Belize $ 6,500 2004 est.
113 Bosnia and Herzegovina $ 6,500 2004 est.
114 Dominican Republic $ 6,300 2004 est.
115 Ukraine $ 6,300 2004 est.
116 Reunion $ 6,000 2004 est.
117 Fiji $ 5,900 2004 est.
118 Gabon $ 5,900 2004 est.
119 Venezuela $ 5,800 2004 est.
120 Turkmenistan $ 5,700 2004 est.
121 China $ 5,600 2004 est.
122 Peru $ 5,600 2004 est.
123 Samoa $ 5,600 2002 est.
124 Dominica $ 5,500 2003 est.
125 Saint Lucia $ 5,400 2002 est.
126 Swaziland $ 5,100 2004 est.
127 Cook Islands $ 5,000 2001 est.
128 Lebanon $ 5,000 2004 est.
129 Philippines $ 5,000 2004 est.
130 Nauru $ 5,000 2001 est.
131 Grenada $ 5,000 2002 est.
132 Albania $ 4,900 2004 est.
133 El Salvador $ 4,900 2004 est.
134 Paraguay $ 4,800 2004 est.
135 Armenia $ 4,600 2004 est.
136 Jordan $ 4,500 2004 est.
137 Suriname $ 4,300 2004 est.
138 Egypt $ 4,200 2004 est.
139 Morocco $ 4,200 2004 est.
140 Guatemala $ 4,200 2004 est.
141 Jamaica $ 4,100 2004 est.
142 Sri Lanka $ 4,000 2004 est.
143 Maldives $ 3,900 2002 est.
144 Azerbaijan $ 3,800 2004 est.
145 Wallis and Futuna $ 3,800 2004 est.
146 Guyana $ 3,800 2004 est.
147 Ecuador $ 3,700 2004 est.
148 Niue $ 3,600 2000 est.
149 Indonesia $ 3,500 2004 est.



Now, Indoneisa isn't technically #149, since "The EU" and "The World" are causing some double counting but yes, it's quite poor. Qatar, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and The United Arab Emirates have a per capita income, each, of roughly half the U.S. Not poor by any stretch of the imagination, but none is any higher than #35.

Edited to add: One silent 'L'. Whose idea was silent 'L's' anyway?

[stamenflicker]

I find the original post, or should I say the articles from which the posts are based to be a bit unreasonable. While I'm certain there are probably relief workers, maybe even a handful of aid distributors conducting themselves in this manner, I have serious doubts that the overall relief efforts are being handled in this way.

First of all, good journalism shouldn't be afraid to name names. If you have the time to go out and interview a few people, then surely you have the time to ferret out exactly which organizations are doing this and you NAME them in your story. Making a wide allegation about Christian relief without naming particulars strikes me as poor journalism. Its a sensationalized story without hard facts about the who's who in relief efforts.

Second, good journalism loves a scandal. If there was a particular Christian relief organization that could be named, it would be named. Even if let's say a small minority of say "Samaritan's Purse" (a relief organization led by the Billy Graham evangelistic association) was behaving in this manner, then it would be big news and somebody would jump on them publically.

Instead what we seem to have here are a handful of interviews about people being forced to convert to receive aid. We have a broad brushed article about those pesky Christians lacking any real specifics. So before you get me to bemoan an alleged activity, I'd like to see some better journalism on it.

All that aside, as I stated above, I have little doubt that this sort of thing does happen. It's sad, but hardly indicative I believe of the general Christian population.

Flick

[Bone_Vulture]

Now, Indoneisa isn't technically #149, since "The EU" and "The World" are causing some double counting but yes, it's quite poor. Qatar, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and The United Arab Emirates have a per capita income, each, of roughly half the U.S. Not poor by any stretch of the imagination, but none is any higher than #35.

What did come as a surprise to me was that according to Wikipedia, Indonesia has Earth's 4th largest population; roughly 240 million! :jaw-dropp

Still under a half of Japan's population density, though.

[Huntster]

I was wrong. (http://www.wbcsd.org/web/complus/documents/wb_wealthofnations_annex.pdf)

Interesting how European nations dominate the top 10 positions of per capita wealth (with corresponding per capita incomes) despite the fact that much of Europe was destroyed a generation ago in the war.

[Huntster]

So, let me get this right. I pledge $100 to some aid organization. I live in the US. The majority religion is Christianity. Therefor my pledge (from a rather openly avowed atheist) is counted as "Christian"? Interesting, flawed, but interesting.

Sorry. In a world of generalities, and in a world where the media declares what's what, that is exactly what that "means".

Perhaps you should find or start an athiest charity organization and make sure it get's its due credit.....................

................If credit and blame is what you're interested in.

[Huntster]

...Is it charity if you set conditions?

Yes.

Sorry. Everything comes with conditions, especially money.

[Ryokan]

Yes.

Sorry. Everything comes with conditions, especially money.

So what conditions did the good Samaritan in the bible have?

[ImaginalDisc]

Yes.

Sorry. Everything comes with conditions, especially money.

Hypotheical situation: A hurricane strikes your community. You are, through no fault of your own, left destitute and hungry. The only charity organization in town insists that you convert to Shinto before you get any rice.

Is this ethical?

[Huntster]

So what conditions did the good Samaritan in the bible have?

None.

But, then, you don't believe that book, do you?

[Huntster]

Hypotheical situation: A hurricane strikes your community. You are, through no fault of your own, left destitute and hungry. The only charity organization in town insists that you convert to Shinto before you get any rice.

Is this ethical?

No.

But, then, if my community is destroyed, do you really think a Shito organization is coming here to help?

[ImaginalDisc]

No.

But, then, if my community is destroyed, do you really think a Shito organization is coming here to help?

The double standard emerges. You think that Chrisitan charities are, by virtue of their religion, better than non-christian ones, and deserve special treatment, correct?

[ImaginalDisc]

No.

But, then, if my community is destroyed, do you really think a Shito organization is coming here to help?

One word rebuttal: Katrina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina


Over seventy countries pledged money or other assistance, including the single largest pledge of support from Kuwait for $500 million; $100 million from the country of Qatar; $5 million from India; $1 million from Bangladesh and $5 million from People's Republic of China.

Are any of those countries christian, by your definition?

Cuba
Offering to send 1,586 doctors and 26 tons of medicine. The doctors await permission to enter the US.

Cuba's a cummunist state, and offically has no religion.

Egypt
Has sent 2 C-130 planes loaded with blankets, medical equipment, and canned food.

Is Egypt christian?

The U.S. federal government refused French assistance initially, but on the 2 September, Rice said that the U.S. authorities would assess the situation and contact French authorities accordingly. On the 4 September, French assistance was formally requested. The French Ministry of Foreign Affairs offered its disaster relief stocks located in the Martinique, including 600 tents, around 1000 beds, 60 electrogenic groups, three pumps, three water purification stations, 1000 folding jerrycans, and other supplies.

A 35-man team of the Sécurité Civile from Guadeloupe and Martinique is ready, including 11 hurricane specialists, and a 60-man "catastrophe intervention" airmobile detachment could be ferried from mainland in a short time. These men are of the Ministry of the Interior.

France is agressively secular.

Iran
Has offered to send humanitarian aid and 20 million barrels of crude oil

Well, Iran's definately Abarahamic.

Oman
Has pledged USD 15 million.

Qatar
Has pledged USD 100 million to the victims.

Israel
Has sent a medical team. Israel has offered field hospitals and hundreds of doctors, nurses, technicians and other experts in trauma, natural disasters and public health.

More Abrahamic aid!

Japan
The Japanese Foreign Ministry has said that it would provide USD 200,000 to the American Red Cross to assist victims of Hurricane Katrina. Japan will also identify needs in affected regions via the U.S. government and will provide up to USD 300,000 in emergency supplies such as tents, blankets and power generators if they receive requests from the U.S. for such assistance. One Japanese individual, Takashi Endo, donated USD 1 million from his personal funds to Katrina relief efforts.

Hmmm, Shinto aid?


The list of countries which have provided support to us, who do not meet your criteria for "christian" go on and on.

[Achán hiNidráne]

None.

But, then, you don't believe that book, do you?

But you do, or at least claim to. This is about your beliefs, not ours.

So how do you square your Christian faith, which calls for unconditional charity (e.g. the Good Samaritan parable), with your belief that Christian aid organization can make their help conditional upon the conversion of the recipients?

[stamenflicker]

So how do you square your Christian faith, which calls for unconditional charity (e.g. the Good Samaritan parable), with your belief that Christian aid organization can make their help conditional upon the conversion of the recipients?

I think this would make a great new thread. If no one has started one, then I volunteer.

Flick

[ImaginalDisc]

I think this would make a great new thread. If no one has started one, then I volunteer.

Flick

I think there's no reason to make another thread about this, since that seems to central question to the issue at hand.

[Kotatsu]

Would you believe Aljazeera?[/URL]:

My math shows approximately $327 million from Christian nations, and $97 million from non-Christian nations.

Yes, most donations were private donations to groups and organizations.

Most disaster relief comes from Western countries, both from governments as well as private donations administered by relief organizations. It has been that way for a long time.

And:

Btw, why isn't Norway on Al-Jazeera's list? We gave more than the EU combined.

I, too, noticed that neither of the countries from which the reports you (Ryokan) quoted came were present in the Aljazeera list Huntster provided, even though both countries contributed to the relief effort. The pertinent detail is, I believe, the word "selected" in the Aljazeera list's own description. Thus, Huntster's maths may show whatever they wish, as they are based on incomplete data (which may, of course, be entirely irrelevant for the claim that Christians donated more, as both Sweden and Norway count as Christian nations according to Huntster's definition) and thus are faulty.
Of further note is the word "pledged" which does not necessarily corresponde to "given" in all cases.

[Beerina]

http://www.svd.se/images/ettan2006/060101/thai339.jpg

10-year-old Mucc Nomnois, a Buddhist girl, with a t-shirt that says 'God loves you'.

These people are scum. Pure scum.



:eek: God damn them, giving out T-shirts that say "God loves you!" Mother f****rs!

[ImaginalDisc]

Of further note is the word "pledged" which does not necessarily corresponde to "given" in all cases.

True, but sme countries can't pony up $100 instantly, there's budget approvals, and months worth of wrangling involved. Here in the U.S. we enter into each budget year without a *Tax Code* for that year. Our legistlature makes up our tax code while we're working.

[Kotatsu]

True, but sme countries can't pony up $100 instantly, there's budget approvals, and months worth of wrangling involved. Here in the U.S. we enter into each budget year without a *Tax Code* for that year. Our legistlature makes up our tax code while we're working.

Indeed; no doubt this reservation applies to more or less all the countries Aljazeera listed. I was merely pointing out the difference between what the list called itself (selected list of pledged donations) and what Huntster called the list (list of donated amounts). It was not meant as an attack on any actual differences between the pledges and the actual contributions, but to point out that the list does not necessarily have any relation to what has actually been donated, and thus should not be used as such.

However, I did not read the Aljazeera article in full, why my statements are based solely on Huntster's post, and thus may be faulty.

[ungoliant]

when will we be free of the religious who have no logic to their arguments and force their righteousness in your face as an excuse for the things they do?

the christian debaters here make no sense beyond the belligerence of might make right and the hubris of righteousness.

charity should have no strings attached. everyone knows this, but christians should especially.

it's like this: i do not condone that behavior! oh, that's our guys doing that? well, then, it's ok sometimes!

[Huntster]

...So how do you square your Christian faith, which calls for unconditional charity (e.g. the Good Samaritan parable), with your belief that Christian aid organization can make their help conditional upon the conversion of the recipients?

I don't.

Never said I did.

[Huntster]

One word rebuttal: Katrina ...

Are any of those countries christian, by your definition?

Cuba's a cummunist state, and offically has no religion.

Is Egypt christian?

France is agressively secular.

Well, Iran's definately Abarahamic.

More Abrahamic aid!.........

Still no Shinto citation, and I don't live in New Orleans.

[ImaginalDisc]

Still no Shinto citation, and I don't live in New Orleans.

Perhaps you missed it the first time.

Japan
The Japanese Foreign Ministry has said that it would provide USD 200,000 to the American Red Cross to assist victims of Hurricane Katrina. Japan will also identify needs in affected regions via the U.S. government and will provide up to USD 300,000 in emergency supplies such as tents, blankets and power generators if they receive requests from the U.S. for such assistance. One Japanese individual, Takashi Endo, donated USD 1 million from his personal funds to Katrina relief efforts.

[Ryokan]

:eek: God damn them, giving out T-shirts that say "God loves you!" Mother f****rs!

If only it was just the t-shirts, I would'nt have minded at all, no more than I would've minded if they wore t-shirts with the American flag or Red Cross symbols.

But let's imagine a similar situation.

Let's imagine that the newsreport was about New Orleans after hurricane Katrina and Muslim aid. Let's imagine that it described an orphanage full of American children wearing t-shirts saying 'Allah is Great'. Let's imagine that as a condition for getting food and clothes, these children had to renounce their former religion and convert to Islam.

Then let's imagine that a report done by Save The Children said that this wasn't an isolated case, but a very common experience for children orphaned by hurrican Katrina.

Would you have cared just as little as you do for these people in a poor country on the other side of the planet?

A Norwegian poet once said, 'you shall not tolerate so very well, the injustices not concerning yourself.'

[stamenflicker]

I think there's no reason to make another thread about this, since that seems to central question to the issue at hand.

Sorry, I just saw a thread convoluted with GDP figures and was interested in merely the boundaries of compassion, if there are or should be any.

Flick

[Anti_Hypeman]

Now we have "faith based initiatives" yeah! That means government funded forced conversions.

[ImaginalDisc]

Sorry, I just saw a thread convoluted with GDP figures and was interested in merely the boundaries of compassion, if there are or should be any.

Flick

Sorry if they were convoluted. I quoted them right from the CIA website, and I tried to be throrough. Perhaps I went overboard.

[Achán hiNidráne]

I don't.

Never said I did.

Really...


...Is it charity if you set conditions?

Yes.

Sorry. Everything comes with conditions, especially money.

[Huntster]

...But let's imagine a similar situation....

Yeah. That's exactly what it is.

Imagination.

The "residents" of New Orleans are complaining that they're not getting any assistance, let alone from Shinto or Islamic peoples.

Keep imagining. It suits you well.

[Huntster]

So how do you square your Christian faith, which calls for unconditional charity (e.g. the Good Samaritan parable), with your belief that Christian aid organization can make their help conditional upon the conversion of the recipients?

I don't.

Never said I did.

Really...

...Is it charity if you set conditions?

Yes.

Sorry. Everything comes with conditions, especially money.


Okay, here’s the reality:

Whether it’s a Christian , government, Shinto, whatever, conditions will be set.

The Good Samaritan found a beaten man on a dangerous trail. One on one. No external funding, no external authority, no witnesses.

He did the right thing. I would, too. I think you would, too.

[Beerina]

It's the setting by example that Christians are supposed to use. The few non-Bible writings about early Christianity suggest that this very thing, caring for the sick and poor, was the high attractor for new converts. It impressed the hell out of the, umm, pagans. And whatever, it worked.

"Hi, we're Christians. Here's some food and water and clothing." -- that, first and foremost, was what spread early Christianity.

Whatever this "you must sit and pray with us" stuff is, I don't know.

[Shinryuu]

Although I can understand the hatred of religious folks attempting to force their beliefs on others, isn't it a little silly to call this "forced" in any way? You cannot, by any means other then "brainwashing" techniques, change someone's values. If it was as simple as most of you seem to assume, then the world would have been banished from crime ages ago. Because everyone coming out of jail would have a complete new set of values and not repeat his actions. In some rare cases this does work, but most of the time someone goes right back to his original path, simply because his values haven't changed. He probably does realize he will go to jail if he breaks the law again, but in his mind he either does not experience it as "wrong", or he finds that what he gains from it is more important then the ethical issue.

Beside that, isn't it their own decision to choose who to help and who to not help? You can draw all sorts of conclusions, but the bottom line is they're not inflicting harm on anyone. They're simply deciding not to help those that refuse to "convert".

The only conclusion I can draw is: If god does exist, they will all go to hell anyway for setting conditions. It's only sad they haven't figured that out yet.

[Ryokan]

Just an update.

I've e-mailed Save The Children and asked when their report would be published.

The answer was the beginning of february.