Theological PhDs and the .edu domain

[Questioninggeller]

As many know, there are many people who call themselves "Dr" who bought their "PhD" from a divinity school. Recently, I was doing research on a minister who claims his PhD from "Louisiana Baptist University" ( www.lbu.edu ). I searched the website and the program he claims to have a doctorate in was absent. Yet, I contacted the school nonetheless and they confirmed he graduated their Ph.D in the subject the minister claimed. So I asked for a copy of his dissertation and got an angry response back that I'd have to get a copy from the author, but if I traveled to the school I could read it in the library. Making the school more interesting:

You pay only $200.00 down and $100.00 in monthly payments to complete your degree.
http://www.lbu.edu/macquickfacts.html

How do these schools get to use a ".edu" domain? At least Kent Hovind's "PhD" is from www.Patriotuniversity.com... When I see a .edu I think of it as a "real school" while that may not be the case. Can anyone provide more details about this?

[Jeff Corey]

As many know, there are many people who call themselves "Dr" who bought their "PhD" from a divinity school. Recently, I was doing research on a minister who claims his PhD from "Louisiana Baptist University" ( www.lbu.edu ). I searched the website and the program he claims to have a doctorate in was absent. ..
Interesting website. Among the pictures they flash of mainly white guys, there's one of Jerry Falwell and one that looks like someone who used to be on the Daily Show.
Maybe they just cloned a bunch of them.
Oh, as to your question. Depends on whether you're an "accredited" institution in your state. Some states seem to be more lenient than others, especially when dealing with certain religious institutions who award schmatta degrees by mail.
I probably couldn't establish NYPU here. New York Pastaferian University is not to be.

[casebro]

Any reason NYPU has to be in NY? Soo, simply establish NYPU in Louisiana. Or maybe in the Camans? Or, easier, on a .ru server? It's accreditation would simply be granted by the PEA, the Pasta Education Association...board membwers to be appointed by Jeff Corey...

[tsg]

How do these schools get to use a ".edu" domain? At least Kent Hovind's "PhD" is from www.Patriotuniversity.com... When I see a .edu I think of it as a "real school" while that may not be the case. Can anyone provide more details about this?

The top level domains are not as strictly controlled as they once were. .com was reserved for commercial sites, .org for non-profits, .edu for schools, .net for ISPs, etc. With the exception of .gov (I believe), it's pretty much meaningless. There are countries who will allow you to use their TLD whether or not you're actually based there.

[pgwenthold]

As many know, there are many people who call themselves "Dr" who bought their "PhD" from a divinity school. Recently, I was doing research on a minister who claims his PhD from "Louisiana Baptist University" ( www.lbu.edu ). I searched the website and the program he claims to have a doctorate in was absent. Yet, I contacted the school nonetheless and they confirmed he graduated their Ph.D in the subject the minister claimed. So I asked for a copy of his dissertation and got an angry response back that I'd have to get a copy from the author, but if I traveled to the school I could read it in the library.

So?

This is typical. You can call the school where I got my PhD and they will tell you the same thing. Either get it from the author or go to the library, it is deposited there.

Alternatively, you can look it up at

http://wwwlib.umi.com/dissertations/gateway

A quick look finds no hits for Lousiana Baptist University in Dissertation Abstracts. However, it can be flaky at times, and a name search might work better.

[petre]

This makes me wonder, is there some independant body rating higher education institutions? I'm thinking of something like certification to indicate the school has rigorous standards. Something like:

A - Graduates are considered especially well-educated.
B - Graduates are fully educated in their selected field.
C - Graduates are adequately educated in their field for entry-level work.
D - Graduates lack aequate education in their field.
F - Graduates have virtually no knowledge in their field

Schools known to have high standards of achievement would get A's, most of the remaining would get B's, accelerated course universities ("get your degree in just 6 months!") that nonetheless produce students which can adequately perform in their field would get C's.

Schools that produce students incapable of performing basic tasks in their field would get D's, and those deemed worthless "degree factories" would get F's.

The rankings would be given for each field a school offers a degree in, and would be judged by professional associations of that field.

So, how's my utopia plan going? :)

[Hagrok]

The top level domains are not as strictly controlled as they once were. .com was reserved for commercial sites, .org for non-profits, .edu for schools, .net for ISPs, etc. With the exception of .gov (I believe), it's pretty much meaningless. There are countries who will allow you to use their TLD whether or not you're actually based there.
I'm pretty sure they don't give out .mil domains to just anybody, as well.

[Jeff Corey]

This makes me wonder, is there some independant body rating higher education institutions?...
Yes. www.msche.org

[tsg]

This makes me wonder, is there some independant body rating higher education institutions?

It's called accreditation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_accreditation).

[Questioninggeller]

So?

This is typical. You can call the school where I got my PhD and they will tell you the same thing. Either get it from the author or go to the library, it is deposited there.

Not typical.

I tried proquest and the LOC (the LOC webpage offers dissertation downloads from the UMI) dissertation section and found nothing. Thus, I called the university, which does not have a "library" (the school is one building with one phone number/email). When asking about the degree obtained in a subject/department the school does not offer is when I got a rude response about the "dissertation."

Usually dissertations (along with being deposited in the LOC) are microfilmed and available bound in that school library. Many libraries loan out the film and/or allow you to purchase a copy, which is why I contacted the school. Consequently, at the top of the thread I asked about the .edu name after finding out the "school" was unaccredited after following my suspicions from the dissertation hunt.

... from the US Department of Education:


.edu Internet Address

Today, most educational institutions are recognized on the Web by their .edu Internet addresses. However, not all institutions that use an .edu as a part of their Internet address are legitimate institutions. Before the U.S. Department of Commerce created its current, strict requirements, some questionable institutions were approved to use an .edu. The current requirements allow only colleges and institutions accredited by an agency recognized by the U.S. Department of Education to use the .edu, however, some more suspect institutions have maintained the .edu addresses.

Beware: Institutions that were approved to use an .edu before the new requirements were put in place may still be using the .edu as part of their Internet address. This means there may be some illegitimate institutions out there with an .edu. Whether an institution uses an .edu or not, it's important to know as much about the institution as possible before enrolling.

http://www.ed.gov/students/prep/college/diplomamills/diploma-mills.html#edu

[pgwenthold]

Not typical.

I tried proquest and the LOC (the LOC webpage offers dissertation downloads from the UMI) dissertation section and found nothing. Thus, I called the university, which does not have a "library" (the school is one building with one phone number/email). When asking about the degree obtained in a subject/department the school does not offer is when I got a rude response about the "dissertation."


So you have changed the facts. Your initial claim was only that

I searched the website and the program he claims to have a doctorate in was absent. Yet, I contacted the school nonetheless and they confirmed he graduated their Ph.D in the subject the minister claimed. So I asked for a copy of his dissertation and got an angry response back that I'd have to get a copy from the author, but if I traveled to the school I could read it in the library.

I stand by my contention that nothing you have said here is out of the oridinary, and is consistent with what you would get from any university.

Now, if you have a different story, one that actually tells us something about the school, I will have a different response but don't blame me for your initial failure to provide a meaningful description.

[Questioninggeller]

I stand by my contention that nothing you have said here is out of the oridinary, and is consistent with what you would get from any university.


The other data isn't important for my point ...

If I called the library of the school where you got a PhD and asked for a loan/copy (giving them the author's name, ect) would they assist me in it?

[petre]

Thanks to the links about accreditation, though I was hoping for something more than a thumbs up/down system. Still, good to know there's something there besides filling out a form to become a learning institution.

[pgwenthold]

The other data isn't important for my point ...

If I called the library of the school where you got a PhD and asked for a loan/copy (giving them the author's name, ect) would they assist me in it?

The library would, sure.

But you didn't say you called the library. You said you called the "school," and apparently talked to the department that confirmed the conferring of a degree.

If you called the registrar of my school, they would confirm that they gave me a degree, and if you asked for the dissertation they'd tell you to contact me or call the library.

[drkitten]

If I called the library of the school where you got a PhD and asked for a loan/copy (giving them the author's name, ect) would they assist me in it?

Depends on what you mean by "assist."

At my alma mater, I suspect (although I've not checked) you would be referred to the UMI website. They do have a paper copy gathering dust on the shelf, but to the best of my knowledge, it hasn't been touched since it was first shelved.

They would almost certainly not be willing to lend it out to you -- dissertations are non-circulating. I don't believe they keep microfilm records of dissertations any more, as with the UMI service it becomes a waste of space, esp. since almost no one ever goes back for them. If you happened to speak to someone in my old department (instead of at the library) and in particular if you spoke to my old advisor, there's a good chance you would be referred directly to me, since I can give you a copy much more cheaply than UMI can -- and I can keep you posted about more recent results to guide your interpretation.

[Anders W. Bonde]

FWIW:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Baptist_University

(I interpret the opening post to be concerned about the accreditation or otherwise of LBU, rather than who keeps copies of dissertations and how you get hold of them.)

[Abdul Alhazred]

Before the system of accreditation, a school merely went by its reputation. Many prestigious schools have been around that long. For example, Harvard and Yale.

There is nothing in law preventing a school in modern times from going the same way, provided there is no fraud involved. That is, they actually have some kind of course work for whatever certification they are offering.

For example, a preacher training school for a particular denomination. If the minister mentioned in the OP got his job that way, it is completely legit.

Of course, if he's going around saying "I'm a doctor, too" that's a lie.

[drkitten]

Before the system of accreditation, a school merely went by its reputation. Many prestigious schools have been around that long. For example, Harvard and Yale.

There is nothing in law preventing a school in modern times from going the same way, provided there is no fraud involved. That is, they actually have some kind of course work for whatever certification they are offering.


Nothing in law, but quite a bit in finance. Under US Law, only students in "accredited" programs are eligible for the various forms of financial aid -- grants, loans, work-study, educational subsidies, what-not. Furthermore, many of the "professional" organizations and schools will require that a
student have a degree from an "accredited" school before they will consider a candidate, so if you
want (for example) to get an advanced degree in counselling, an unaccredited diploma-mill B.A. will not even make the admissions requirements.

In practice, for a school to voluntarily forego regional accreditation involves such a huge financial loss for the school that it's almost unheard of. (I can't think of a single "legitimate" school that has ever made such a choice "in modern times.")

[Garrette]

The United States Military Academy was unaccredited for roughly 20 years (I don't know exactly; I'm going by memory). I was the last year to graduate without accreditation during that span.

I was told that since it was not accredited, my Bachelors of Science had no Major but only a Concentration and I got no credit for my Minor at all.

However, its reputation apparently carried it. I have had no problem having my diploma accepted, nor have my classmates who received more technical degrees.

[kevin]

Before the system of accreditation, a school merely went by its reputation. Many prestigious schools have been around that long. For example, Harvard and Yale.

There is nothing in law preventing a school in modern times from going the same way, provided there is no fraud involved. That is, they actually have some kind of course work for whatever certification they are offering.

Many professionally licensed occupations (i.e. state certified Professional Engineers) require degrees to be from an accredited university. Although they frequlently have field-experience only options too (usually 10-15 years experience).

[Questioninggeller]

The library would, sure.

But you didn't say you called the library. You said you called the "school," and apparently talked to the department that confirmed the conferring of a degree.

I called the "school" (I made no mention of a department) because there is only one phone number and one email address on the entire webpage ( at www.lbu.edu under "contacts" it opens the one email address and at the bottom of the main page is the one phone number). No library contacts listed, no departments, no department emails, no registar's office, no admissions office, no professors' emails listed, ect. ect.

Had there been a library contact I would have asked them. Since I did not have that option I asked the person who confirmed the degree. That person, I expected, would have turned me to the resources to aquire a copy, such as a library. Back to your comparsion with your Ph.D, had I called the school about getting a copy of your dissertation would they recommend I contact the library?

Depends on what you mean by "assist."


I would hope they would refer me online, but if that was not an option I could order and pay for a photocopy of, say, the introduction and first chapter.