What rights will you give up to keep us safe?

[headscratcher4]

The President and Vice President are arguing that not only is NSA’s listening in on phone conversations legal without a warrant (and based on Presidential authorization relying on post 9/11 national security legislation) but that it is necessary to prevent future terrorism.

Indeed, the Vice President yesterday argued that if NSA had been listening in pre-9/11, 9/11 might have been avoided.

The Administration also seems to argue that not only do the polls indicate that American support its position on NSA listening-in (an interesting argument from an Administration that says it pays no attention to polls) but that those who oppose the Administration on this point will either actively weaken national security or are essentially working to the advantage of the U.S.’s enemies (i.e. AlQida).

Here is my question: What assumed rights that you now think you have are you willing to give up so that President Bush can continue to protect the nation?

Will you give up your assumed 2nd Amendment gun rights…as terrorists can easily buy deadly guns in the United States to use in attacking us?

What about the right of Habeas Corpus, a trial by your peers and with representation by defense council (after all, Lincoln suspending Habeas Corpus in a national emergency, why not allow Bush to do the same?)?

Maybe we should put Arab or Muslim Americans in Camps like we did with Japanese Americans and with Supreme Court Approval during WWII?

Maybe we should cancel the 2008 election, changing Presidents – even electing a Bush selected ally – might be perceived by our enemies as a weakness in our system…after all, what sane nation would change horses in the midst of such an epic battle?

Any other rights that you don’t think you need and which you will give-up to protect the nation?

In the end, if we give these rights away, how will we ever get them back?

Rant for the day concluded.

[rharbers]

None for me!

[Genesius]

Ben Franklin said it best: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

[Charlie Monoxide]

Interesting question headscratcher. I'm more interested if we will be given a chance to choose .....

Charlie (touche pas les droites) Monoxide

[rharbers]

Interesting question headscratcher. I'm more interested if we will be given a chance to choose .....

Charlie (touche pas les droites) Monoxide

Don't be so pesimistic Charles. You scare me.

[Anti_Hypeman]

I want to know what rights we have given up that we dont know about yet. Maybe we did lose habeas corpus but the info has not been leaked.

[Nyarlathotep]

Only terrorists, terrorist sympathisers and America-hating liberlas give a rat's behind about such things anyway. Every red-blooded American knows that.

[rharbers]

Only terrorists, terrorist sympathisers and America-hating liberlas give a rat's behind about such things anyway. Every red-blooded American knows that.

I'm a Red Blooded, gun toting, knife wielding, meat eating, beer guzzling Texan and I care alot about this.

[rikzilla]

I want to know what rights we have given up that we dont know about yet. Maybe we did lose habeas corpus but the info has not been leaked.

Sorry; you don't have the right to know...

-z

[Genesius]

I'm a Red Blooded, gun toting, knife wielding, meat eating, beer guzzling Texan and I care alot about this.

Ted Nugent? Is that you?

:D

[rharbers]

Ted Nugent? Is that you?

:D

You're close, very close.

[headscratcher4]

You're close, very close.
Ned Tugent?

[CFLarsen]

Interesting question headscratcher. I'm more interested if we will be given a chance to choose .....

I thought Americans just had rights? That it wasn't a question of whether or not they were give a chance to choose?

;)

[Marc L]

Here is my question: What assumed rights that you now think you have are you willing to give up so that President Bush can continue to protect the nation?

Will you give up your assumed 2nd Amendment gun rights…as terrorists can easily buy deadly guns in the United States to use in attacking us?


Well, I'll tell ya, I don't think that that's something the Right would try to use. Anti-gun people usually come from the left. Also, there're already people trying to take that right away, so the attempt can hardly be blamed on Bush.


Maybe we should put Arab or Muslim Americans in Camps like we did with Japanese Americans and with Supreme Court Approval during WWII?


Yeah. Like that would happen again. I mean heck, look at the outcry at the imprisonment of people who actually are terrorists are suspected terrorists-and there's actually cause to believe that they are-do you really think the American public would stand by while people were imprisoned that there was to believe they were terrorists? Sure, maybe one or two might get caught up in the system, but an entire people group? It's not as likely as it was in the 40's.


Maybe we should cancel the 2008 election, changing Presidents – even electing a Bush selected ally – might be perceived by our enemies as a weakness in our system…after all, what sane nation would change horses in the midst of such an epic battle?


It's funny. People have been saying since 9/12 that the President would try and cancel the 2004 election because of the emergency. They based this on Bush's demand for a recount in Florida. The ironic thing is that the 2004 elections went as scheduled, and he was reelected after all.


Any other rights that you don’t think you need and which you will give-up to protect the nation?

In the end, if we give these rights away, how will we ever get them back?

Rant for the day concluded.

I'm not really worried about losing my rights anytime soon. The fact that you and I are even having this conversation on a public forum is testament to the fact that our basic liberties aren't totally in danger. There are too many, in my opinion, websites against George W that have been around awhile for me to think that he's interested in keeping power after the end of his term. Were he that interested in becoming a despot, I think that anti-Bush sentiment would have started vanishing a long time ago.

Marc

[Grammatron]

The only right I will give up is the right to carry a nuclear weapon near Starbucks and DMV.

[headscratcher4]

"...aren't totally in danger..."

Comforting. I'll withhold getting worried about it till they are totally in danger...hopefully that won't be to late to do anything about it.

[Manny]

Well, let's see.

I'm willing to give up the right to be secure in my person and effects when I board a fuel tank which flies at 400 miles per hour. Gave that one up in 1972, in fact. The courts agreed that those were reasonable searches under the circumstances, warrant or no.

I'm willing also to have my cargo from abroad searched. That's a pretty easy one -- the government has claimed the right to do that since the founding of the country. But my (Democratic) Senator says we aren't doing that nearly often enough and he's a pretty smart guy and he's probably right.

Oh, and guns. Yeah, I like my guns, but I'm willing to give up my right to receive a big batch of them from overseas without the government knowing about it. Oops, never had that right either.

What else? Turns out I have also given up my right to drive on the public roads without being questioned as to whether I've been drinking or at least observed close-up so that someone can guess. I wasn't particularly crazy about that one, but there was a broad public consensus in the '80s to do such checks and it turns out that the proponents were correct -- the Republic somehow survived. So did a bunch of the Republic's people.

If I own a piece of property and call it a "refinery" or "chemical plant" or something like that instead of a "house" I'm OK with the government coming by from time to time to make sure I'm not going to accidently blow up the neighbors. Heck, I'll even let them test the smoke from my "chimney" and tell me if it's OK to keep the home fires burning. I'm good like that.

Those are a few which come to mind right now. Maybe I'll check back in later.

[Charlie Monoxide]

I will easily give up the right to be abused by Catholic priests and getting poked in the eyes by anyone named Larry, Moe, or Curly ...

Charlie (oh, and I forgot Shemp) Monoxide

[ungoliant]

Well, let's see.

I'm willing to give up the right to be secure in my person and effects when I board a fuel tank which flies at 400 miles per hour. Gave that one up in 1972, in fact. The courts agreed that those were reasonable searches under the circumstances, warrant or no.

I'm willing also to have my cargo from abroad searched. That's a pretty easy one -- the government has claimed the right to do that since the founding of the country. But my (Democratic) Senator says we aren't doing that nearly often enough and he's a pretty smart guy and he's probably right.

Oh, and guns. Yeah, I like my guns, but I'm willing to give up my right to receive a big batch of them from overseas without the government knowing about it. Oops, never had that right either.

What else? Turns out I have also given up my right to drive on the public roads without being questioned as to whether I've been drinking or at least observed close-up so that someone can guess. I wasn't particularly crazy about that one, but there was a broad public consensus in the '80s to do such checks and it turns out that the proponents were correct -- the Republic somehow survived. So did a bunch of the Republic's people.

If I own a piece of property and call it a "refinery" or "chemical plant" or something like that instead of a "house" I'm OK with the government coming by from time to time to make sure I'm not going to accidently blow up the neighbors. Heck, I'll even let them test the smoke from my "chimney" and tell me if it's OK to keep the home fires burning. I'm good like that.

Those are a few which come to mind right now. Maybe I'll check back in later.

you sound like a republican. you don't care that the erosion of rights is more insidious than a sudden change?

see, you are used to changes done decades ago and now are ready to accept more whittling down in the name of security. when does the whittling down end? when YOU personally feel safe and justified?

what about all the literature that proposes we aren't any safer now that we have given up some of our rights? have you pondered any of that?

i, for one, refuse to give an inch, not one right. and be as self-assured as you want, i am totally against all the violation of rights that you mention have already occured.

life is dangerous. making murder illegal does not stop murders. i'd rather have more freedom and take my chances.

people on the frontier in colonial days had more rights than us, no government to protect them, and an enemy at their door (native americans) and they did just fine.

there is no need to give up my freedom, you are advocating a false sense of security. terrorists can attack anywhere at will. you are buying the hype.

[rharbers]

life is dangerous. making murder illegal does not stop murders. i'd rather have more freedom and take my chances.


Well said ungoliant.

[ungoliant]

Well said ungoliant.

thanks!

[Santa666]

you sound like a republican. you don't care that the erosion of rights is more insidious than a sudden change?

see, you are used to changes done decades ago and now are ready to accept more whittling down in the name of security. when does the whittling down end? when YOU personally feel safe and justified?

what about all the literature that proposes we aren't any safer now that we have given up some of our rights? have you pondered any of that?

What about all the literature proposing alien beings from afar have discreetly visited this planet and even kidnapped various inhabitants to perform any number of "scientific" experiments or similar genetic testing. What about all the literature proposing an omnipotent, supernatural entity created the known universe and sent his son to earth through virgin birth to sacrifice himself to allow the unworthy, sinful humans a gateway to heaven.

There is a lot of literature out there providing "evidence" for any number of claims. How exactly does one measure being "safer" anyway? Do we measure it by how many plane hijackings have occurred since 9/11? If so, then we are quite safe. What criteria does one use to determine whether we are safer or not? Perhaps you could provide some evidence of the unsafe nature of our society since 9/11?

i, for one, refuse to give an inch, not one right. and be as self-assured as you want, i am totally against all the violation of rights that you mention have already occured.

You are against sobriety testing for drunk drivers? You are against the search of luggage entering a aircraft? You are against the government placing regulations of what you can or cannot burn in your "home/chemical plant" and then release into the environment? If you are, then you are just being silly. We have laws and regulations aplenty that limit our so-called freedom in order to maintain peace within society. This is not an infringement on our rights which will soon lead to some obscene dictarship. It's part and parcel of living in civilized world.

life is dangerous. making murder illegal does not stop murders. i'd rather have more freedom and take my chances.

people on the frontier in colonial days had more rights than us, no government to protect them, and an enemy at their door (native americans) and they did just fine.

there is no need to give up my freedom, you are advocating a false sense of security. terrorists can attack anywhere at will. you are buying the hype.

They did just fine did they? Where is your evidence for this? What freedoms did colonial americans have that do not exist today? Colonial life in america was significantly different than life today. With the increase in population and technology comes the advent of increased responsibility. For example, citizens now have access to 2000+ pound "horseless carriages"; operating one these technological advances requires a much greater degree of responsibility than riding a horse. The same goes for kitchen appliances, power tools, and even office equipment. This responsibility must have proper regulations so as to prevent an abuse of this technology. Today's society is a much better place than ever before because we have allowed ourselves to be governed and regulated, not despite it.



Santa