Magnet therapy: review in BMJ

[Mojo]

The BMJ has published a review which suggests that magnet therapy is ineffective. No abstract is currently available, but the first 150 words can be seen here (http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/extract/332/7532/4)

The story has been covered by the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4582282.stm):
It said many "controlled" experiments used to show the worth of such treatments were suspect because of the difficulty of hiding the presence of a magnet to those involved.
Patients were given dummy magnets and real magnets, but because the real magnets would stick to keyrings in their pockets and other metal items, they could tell if they were part of the real study or the control.

…

The team does refer to one study on the effects of carpal tunnel syndrome - a painful wrist condition - in which the magnets and the sham treatments were boxed so they could not be identified.
In this, they said, there was no statistical difference between patients with real and sham magnets, with both reporting an improvement in their condition.
Perhaps someone associated with The British Instute of Magnet Therapy (http://www.cogreslab.co.uk/bimt.asp) would care to comment?

[Zep]

I suspect they wouldn't...

[Darat]

What was that thread called again?

[Mojo]

"A complete load of old coghills"?

[Asolepius]

What was that thread called again?
Bioelectromagnetics IIRC.

[Darat]

Thanks here it is: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=22595

[CFLarsen]

I'm strangely attracted to magnets....

[Deetee]

Final paragraph of the BMJ editorial:

"Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. If there is any healing effect of magnets, it is apparently small since published research, both theoretical and experimental, is weighted heavily against any therapeutic benefit. Patients should be advised that magnet therapy has no proved benefits. If they insist on using a magnetic device they could be advised to buy the cheapest—this will at least alleviate the pain in their wallet."

Unfortunately, the BMJ seems to subscribe to the "ads by Goooooogle" in a window adjacent to the article.
This tries to flog 4 different magnetic wonder treatments.

[Mojo]

Unfortunately, the BMJ seems to subscribe to the "ads by Goooooogle" in a window adjacent to the article.
This tries to flog 4 different magnetic wonder treatments.And if (like me) you don't subscribe, you still get the ads but not the full article.

[Soapy Sam]

http://www.neodymium-magnets-uk.com/Magnet_therapy.html

The above is a link to a UK company I recently bought some magnets from.
I find their attitude to magnetic therapy refreshing- "We don't think it works, but we'll sell you good magnets anyway."

[Mojo]

Although the full article isn't available, there are now some responses (http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/332/7532/4) accessible on the BMJ site.

[Mojo]

There are some more rapid responses there now, including one from Roger, under the title Animal studies in magnet therapy are not subject to placebo. He says (inter alia): ...one inexcusable lacuna was their failure to discuss animal experimental results, where the conceded strong placebo effect of magnets is not a possible confounding factor. For example scintigraphic studies of magnets applied in equine laminitis revealed a significant therapeutic effect (Kobluk and Johnston, 1994). Such magnets are used throughout the equestrian world to apparently great effect. Has anyone seen this study? Were the people judging the success of the treatment blinded? Any comments on this from the vets on the board?

[Rolfe]

I don't know the paper and I'm not up to speed with the subject, but I did read an interesting article suggesting that hanging a load of heavy magnets round a horse's leg was as good a way as any of persuading it to stay still and allow the injury to heal....

Oh yes, and the proposed mechanism of action was just laughable.

Rolfe.

[Deetee]

The latest contributor to the BMJ rapid responses (Markov himself) concludes by saying "Do not forget that magnetic field therapy has centuries of history and that over the last 60 years more than 3 million people worldwide have benefited from it."

Why do apparently intelligent people always resort to this transparent Woo argument? Don't they think readers have any critical faculties?

[Mojo]

Why do apparently intelligent people always resort to this transparent Woo argument? Don't they think readers have any critical faculties?I find the idea that the BMJ's readers don't have any critical faculties rather depressing.

[Asolepius]

There are some more rapid responses there now, including one from Roger, under the title Animal studies in magnet therapy are not subject to placebo. He says (inter alia): Has anyone seen this study? Were the people judging the success of the treatment blinded? Any comments on this from the vets on the board?
Ah, I wondered if he would rise to the bait - after I nudged him. What astonishing poppycock. Does he think the animals are filling in the case report forms? Well, monkeys and typewriters spring to mind......

[Soapy Sam]

I did read an interesting article suggesting that hanging a load of heavy magnets round a horse's leg was as good a way as any of persuading it to stay still and allow the injury to heal....Rolfe

"I wonder why Dobbin has been leaning against that fence all day..? He seems very attached to it."

[Zep]

There's been a preponderence of "magnetic" puns in this thread so far. Can we just pole ourselves away from them, for now, shall we?

[Eos of the Eons]

Drat, and I just learned to make homemade magnets. Was looking forward to starting up a business and all, and now this stinking call for evidence. How is one supposed to make fast buck anymore.

I'll just get a list of Trudeau fans. They'll buy my magnets.

[richardm]

There's been a preponderence of "magnetic" puns in this thread so far. Can we just pole ourselves away from them, for now, shall we?

Perhaps we could ask one of the moderators to field them?

[homer]

Puns . I've noticed that intelligent people are very fond of these . I wonder what that proves about this thread ?

[Eos of the Eons]

Eh, us unpunny folks just have equally magnetizing personalities. We just need to align our domains and make the effort to explore the field of potential temporary punniness.

Okay, if you just alloy me another chance, I'll get it right next time.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

I don't know the paper and I'm not up to speed with the subject, but I did read an interesting article suggesting that hanging a load of heavy magnets round a horse's leg was as good a way as any of persuading it to stay still and allow the injury to heal....

Oh yes, and the proposed mechanism of action was just laughable.

Rolfe.


I know you're a vet and therefore know vastly more about this sort of thing than me but ...

(This might be folk lore, so I'm prepared to be corrected)

I have heard that horses need to move regularly because this movement is what causes the blood to flow in the leg, (or at least maintain an average adequate flow), and therefore would be necessary to assist in any healing in the hoof.

[Rolfe]

Yes, but within reason. You do want to keep an injury relatively immobile.

Rolfe.

[eri]

From the British Institute of Magnet Therapy...

Of course it is very important to ensure that medicine is efficacious, but this should not mean that untried or unexplained medical techniques are also not valid: who knows how aspirin works, for example?

I have a feeling that SOMEONE knows how aspirin works, even if it's not me. Or them. I also tried to read the section entitled 'Origins of Electricity' but it quickly became a rant about Atlantis, and I gave up.

(edited for spelling)

(does edited have one t or two?)

[Jeff Corey]

I did read an interesting article suggesting that hanging a load of heavy magnets round a horse's leg was as good a way as any of persuading it to stay still and allow the injury to heal....Rolfe

"I wonder why Dobbin has been leaning against that fence all day..? He seems very attached to it."
That would be Mesmer's "animal magnetism".

[Mojo]

I have a feeling that SOMEONE knows how aspirin works, even if it's not me. Or them. Apparently someone won a Nobel prize for finding out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin#How_it_works

The important point is that even if it wasn't known exactly how it worked, it was very apparent that it did. It gets brought up by woos with treatments that appear to have little or no effect as evidence somehow supporting them. What matters is not that there is no apparent mechanism for magnet therapy, or homoeopathy, or whatever, but that they don't appear to work.

[Rolfe]

Same way the woos keep telling us that according to science, bumble bees can't fly. Except that the explanation of how they fly (http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-15-1999.html) was arrived at some time ago.

Rolfe.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

Same way the woos keep telling us that according to science, bumble bees can't fly. Except that the explanation of how they fly (http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-15-1999.html) was arrived at some time ago.

Rolfe.

This nonsense has been around for a while. I've even had religious fanatics use it to prove that science can't know everything therefore their god must have done it! :confused:

[Mojo]

Of course, a lot of woos approach the fallacy from the opposite end, and try to claim that their quackery is somehow valid, in the absence of any actual evidence that it works, because they can propose some sort of mechanism behind it. Hence we have Kumar's crackpot ideas about partial excitation of electrons, MAShiekh going on about their incompetent preparation techniques (actually, the "dirty washing-up" theory was another of Kumar's as well, I think) and people like Milgrom wittering on about quantum mechanics.

[Asolepius]

From the British Institute of Magnet Therapy...



I have a feeling that SOMEONE knows how aspirin works, even if it's not me. Or them. I also tried to read the section entitled 'Origins of Electricity' but it quickly became a rant about Atlantis, and I gave up.

(edited for spelling)

(does edited have one t or two?)
It seems too much to expect Roger to quote anything better than saloon bar gossip. It's been known for many years that aspirin is a prostaglandin inhibitor. This is consistent with its gastric irritation effect.

ETA: Sorry, didn't see Mojo's reply! John Vane wasn't it?

[Darat]

Same way the woos keep telling us that according to science, bumble bees can't fly. Except that the explanation of how they fly (http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-15-1999.html) was arrived at some time ago.

Rolfe.

It's sad isn't it that they try to use the very strength of science against it?

Scientist : "Here's the equations that describe how a wing produces lift"
Person in the street: "According to that a bumble bee can't fly!"
Scientist : "Damn, that means I got it wrong - let me try again"

Believer: "OK - here's why I believe a wing produces lift"
Person in the street: "According to that a bumble bee can't fly!"
Believer: "Bees can't fly."