Food coloring... everywhere?

[Z]

OK, I'm interested in seeing what responses are generated to this concept.

When I was very young, I was diagnosed as hyperactive, as MANY kids our age were (I'm 33 - damn near 34). At first, the prevaling drug of the time was employed (I don't remember, quit asking) and it had exactly the OPPOSITE effect it was supposed to have. So our family doctor prescribed caffeine and a regulated diet - no preservatives, no red food dye, and limits on sodas and sugary snacks. Amazingly, SOMETHING in that diet worked perfectly, and I went on to graduate in the top 10 of my class (number 9, to be precise), with whatever college options I could want, short of the Ivy League.

Fast forward to our children, and our own problems: My seven-year-old has been diagnosed with combination ADD - meaning, he shows symptoms and signs, but not always the 'common' ones, and needs some help. So after seeing teams of doctors, psychologists, child specialists, etc. the conclusion seems to be - remove food dyes. ALL artificial, petroleum-based food dyes (that would be the D&C and FD&C colors you see on those Doritos and Cheetos). We have observed remarkable improvement, as have the doctors; yet we regularly face nay-sayers who claim that there is no such thing as a 'sensitivity' to petroleum-based coloring.

Now, I've read studies both for and against the issue, and am aware of the FDA's current policy - AND who WROTE that policy.

Anyway, enough ground work - last night, Meiers had a big sale across the store, and one of the sale products was for Florida Oranges - buy one, get one free. Well, I rarely pass up a BOGO sale, so I grabbed a bag--- and there it was. Under the Florida Oranges logo (Yum! So much better than CA oranges!), in fine red print - "Color added."

Color added? To Oranges????

Well, I'm outraged. Oranges. Apples. Some other fruits, like cherries. Some veggies, too. Fish. Meat. And, of course, damned near every product put out by Green Giant that has any sauce has color added. Even rice, mushrooms, and peas has color added. I gotta ask - WHY??? Why dump petroleum-based food coloring into our food supply? Aside from being yet another ingredient that needs to be purchased, thereby raising the price of our food, isn't there sufficient reason to, at the very least, produce NON-dyed versions of foods for those with sensitivities?

Anyway, I'd like to hear what you guys think of all these petroleum-based dyes in our foods, and whether or not the FDA OUGHT to take some kind of action, or whether it's all just hooplah... AND - whether or not we NEED more color in our regular foods (obviously, fun foods like M&Ms would suffer without fake colors)? I mean, do you think you would miss the addition of FD&C Yellow #5 Lake to a batch of your broccoli & cheese side dish?

[Boo]

I have heard of allergies to Red40 that causes hyperactivity in children and can cause true allergic reactions (hives, etc). It's what makes children's Benadryl pink which is what is commonly given to kids for ....allergic reactions. Which is why we now have liquid Benadryl clear.

As for removing coloring from everyday food items, most people won't buy food without it, it's just too unappealing.

The presence of these dyes as suspected allergens is part of the Organic push for better labeling and the use of the word 'natural' or 'pure' on food items.


Boo

[Goshawk]

whether or not the FDA OUGHT to take some kind of action

The FDA has already taken all the action it feels it needs to take. They regulate the manufacture, sale, and utilization of the nine certified food colors in American foodstuffs. And that's it.

Calling on the FDA to remove dyes from food because some people are sensitive to them is like calling on the baseball commissioner to remove rosin bags from major league play because some people are allergic to rosin.

[Z]

... most people won't buy food without it, it's just too unappealing.

Ah... so most people never bought food prior to the introduction of food dyes? I find this statement very odd... what? Without food dye, people won't get hungry?

[Z]

The FDA has already taken all the action it feels it needs to take. They regulate the manufacture, sale, and utilization of the nine certified food colors in American foodstuffs. And that's it.

Apparently not... it would seem the FDA has taken all the actions it CAN take, due to tremendous pressure from various food industries and government officials to NOT take action.

[Amapola]

I think people USED to know what food really looked like, and they went ahead and bought it. The average consumer in America today does not raise their own meat or vegetables, and so they don't have much experience with what food looks like when it has not been dyed. Since I do, I look askance at the meat in grocery stores. I have butchered my own meat plenty of times and I know what meat looks like, and that is not it! :D But most people don't have the same experience and to them, it looks tasty. :confused: Weirds me out but that is the way it is.

I would say, just try to buy undyed foods. You may be able to find a farmer's market, a farmer or some other place where you can buy undyed foods, but I will warn you that you will then have to cook them. A lot of people prefer the convenience of prepared foods.

[bug_girl]

Oh, you don't even want to get me started on how the use of pesticides is promoted by Joe/Jane Average's insistance on perfect fruit and veg. Sigh.
Amapola is right--people are very disconnected from their food, and food sources. Some people put tomatoes in the refrigerator, for cripes sake! :eek:

I would like to put in a plug for one red food coloring/dye that is all-natural: Carmine or Cochineal. It's made from squashed pregnant scale insects, and you can't get much more natural than that. :D

I always loved pointing that out as an ingredient in lipstick to women, and watching them freak out.
BTW, many indigenous people harvest these insects as a way of making some cash. A nice exhibit on the insects and the dye can be found here (http://webexhibits.org/pigments/indiv/overview/carmine.html)

Snopes, alas, has incorrect info--the insects are NOT beetles.
http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/bugjuice.htm

[geni]

Anyway, I'd like to hear what you guys think of all these petroleum-based dyes in our foods,

Slightly missleading. A lot of the modern dyes are just sythetic versions of stuff that already exists in nature. No dye could be described as "petroleum-based" petroleum oil is a mixture of mostly alkanes. Dyes tend to be a single compound containing a fair number of double bonds.

[Art Vandelay]

Are they putting dyes on oranges, or in oranges?

Food does involves more senses than just taste. We don't need food coloring, then there are a lot of things that we don't need. Pain killers, for instance.


Amapola is right--people are very disconnected from their food, and food sources. Some people put tomatoes in the refrigerator, for cripes sake!And if they grew their own, they wouldn't?

[Z]

I think people USED to know what food really looked like, and they went ahead and bought it. The average consumer in America today does not raise their own meat or vegetables, and so they don't have much experience with what food looks like when it has not been dyed. Since I do, I look askance at the meat in grocery stores. I have butchered my own meat plenty of times and I know what meat looks like, and that is not it! :D But most people don't have the same experience and to them, it looks tasty. :confused: Weirds me out but that is the way it is.

Yep - in other words, people have been force-fed the idea of plastic, pre-wrapped food for so long that sickly, fake-looking food is now desirable. Gotcha.

I would say, just try to buy undyed foods. You may be able to find a farmer's market, a farmer or some other place where you can buy undyed foods, but I will warn you that you will then have to cook them. A lot of people prefer the convenience of prepared foods.

I do a HELL of a lot of my own cooking. It's almost a requirement, with one member of the household being allergic to beef, pork, poultry, and game, some seafood, dairy, and certain types of wheat, and another having a sensitivity to food dyes. You can find a lot of undyed foods - thank the Gods - on the Generics aisle, too. I'm not surprised about that - these are the same products in many ways, without the bells and whistles that are designed to attract the average, brain-dead American. I mean, I've seen for myself how ignorant people can be, buying something basic like, say, table salt. "Oh, well Morton's just HAS to be better salt..."

The big problem I'm having right now, is that under Der Bush, the FDA has been pressured to lighten up on a lot of the restrictions that food companies were under, where labelling products and changing ingredients are concerned. Used to be, we could buy meat-free corn dogs (the kids LOVED them) and sausages; but suddenly, without warning, the companies making these products decided that corn dogs needed red and yellow food dyes added. So there are absolutely NO corn dogs the kids can have now, unless I'm going to the trouble to make them myself... and since veggie sausages are going the way of the dodo (except for dyed versions), that's getting harder to do. And a lot of products are suddenly adding things like chicken broth or red food dye without any notice on the label whatsoever, so our choices of available foods is quickly being shortened.

Plus, with food dye being smeared on and/or injected into the vegetables and fruits and fish we buy, often without our knowing about it... **shudder**

[Z]

Oh, you don't even want to get me started on how the use of pesticides is promoted by Joe/Jane Average's insistance on perfect fruit and veg. Sigh.
Amapola is right--people are very disconnected from their food, and food sources. Some people put tomatoes in the refrigerator, for cripes sake! :eek:

I would like to put in a plug for one red food coloring/dye that is all-natural: Carmine or Cochineal. It's made from squashed pregnant scale insects, and you can't get much more natural than that. :D

I always loved pointing that out as an ingredient in lipstick to women, and watching them freak out.
BTW, many indigenous people harvest these insects as a way of making some cash. A nice exhibit on the insects and the dye can be found here (http://webexhibits.org/pigments/indiv/overview/carmine.html)

Snopes, alas, has incorrect info--the insects are NOT beetles.
http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/bugjuice.htm

Yep - I'm rather fond of a particular brand of cheese spread that uses carmine coloring. After careful testing, we found that carmine, annato, etc. doesn't affect our sensitive kid at all. The yellows seem to make him bonkers, the reds make him aggressive and hateful, and the blues tend to give him mild migraines, but the vegetable and insect-based colors seem to have no affect on him at all.

After learning just how much insect protein we eat daily in our regular foods anyway, who cares about a little crushed insect color? :D

[Z]

Slightly missleading. A lot of the modern dyes are just sythetic versions of stuff that already exists in nature. No dye could be described as "petroleum-based" petroleum oil is a mixture of mostly alkanes. Dyes tend to be a single compound containing a fair number of double bonds.

We stand corrected.

Oh, let us not forget the whole aluminum 'Lake' series, which, btw, is not soluble...

[Z]

Are they putting dyes on oranges, or in oranges?

That was a big question for my roommate, too... until I reminded her that orange rinds are mildly porous. I don't know of any specific research into just how well citrus peels protect the meats inside from chemical intrusion, but I know that there was some concern growing up (I spent a couple of years living in an orange grove) about some pesticides infesting the meat of the oranges that were sprayed.

I haven't been able to find out yet if they inject the oranges or just spray them.

Food does involves more senses than just taste. We don't need food coloring, then there are a lot of things that we don't need. Pain killers, for instance.

Relating pain killers to cosmetic food coloring is really a bad analogy, don't you think? Pain killers relieve pain (duh)... so what, exactly, does adding MORE orange color to oranges do? Aside from cause young consumers to think that all food must look like it's carved of plastic?

I think it's especially misleading to color produce, since one of the things a shopper looks for (if they know their produce) is the natural color. Color should be an indication of ripeness, a good crop, etc. It's like painting over the rust spots on a car to conceal flaws and defects, IMHO. Same with meat, fish, etc. If I'm buying 'fresh' foods, I expect them to be their natural colors, so I can tell how fresh and healthy those foods actually are!

And if they grew their own, they wouldn't?

If they knew much about the foods they ate, they probably wouldn't.

Tomatos taste best when never touched by the cold. Like oranges and other citrus, tomatos are so pulpy that cold air can badly affect their internal texture and, therefore, flavor. Plus, a tomato continues to ripen and perfect when left out, of course.

[Darat]

Are they putting dyes on oranges, or in oranges?

Food does involves more senses than just taste. We don't need food coloring, then there are a lot of things that we don't need. Pain killers, for instance.

And if they grew their own, they wouldn't?

I think a lot of citrus fruits used to be dyed to alter the skin colour, I don;t know how common it still is. Part of this reason is that people apparently will buy more oranges if they are very orange in colour (orange skins can vary from quite pale yellows, all the way through to quite dark browns).

I suspect that what we see in many stores nowadays are only the varieties that are naturally very orange or have been bred to be very orange. Which is a shame since it means we actually get less choice and it means that the concentration is on breeding for colour rather then taste.

(ETA: Disagree about the pain killer comment.)

[Jyera]

This is the first time I hear people putting dye into oranges.

If I buy oranges, it would have to be an orange.
I find it a turn-off and will not buy it if I know it has dye.

Instead of buying a "tampered" orange, I might as well choose a "bottled/tetrapak" orange juice or juice-drink, which are usually cheaper.
Even for bottle orange juice, I'll choose those without coloring if I had the choice.

The color of orange does attract. But if it is not sweet, I'll not buy it again.
I think there are also other "feature".
- Eg. Navel-orange are considered sweeter.
- choose by considering country and region of origin.
- Choose according to brand.
- Choose according to weight, by picking the heavier ones, which usually means juicy.

So it is has nice color but is juiceless, not sweet, and not a brand I have tried before I will not consider it.

[Jyera]

From the viewpoint of food allergy,

It is unfortunate for ZD and his child to need to avoid certain food additive/color. I have always wondered why people are allergic to some substance and frustrated by medical science's seemingly lack of ability to cure the allergy.

[Jyera]

By the way how to identify an orange that has been dyed ?

[Wudang]

Most citrus fruit in the UK is sold with a wax coating. If the same is true in the US I would suspect the colouring is in the wax. I always try to buy unwaxed lemons and limes as I use the peel in various ways eg lemon peel in my meatballs. Oddly waxed lemons are never sold as such. Their existence is highlighted by the sale of unwaxed lemons labelled as such.

[Darat]

Wudung - I don't think it is in the wax - that would be noticeable since you can wash the wax off.

By the way don't you find it slightly amusing that they charge more for the unprocessed unwaxed lemons?

[Z]

They charge more for a LOT of things that have less ingredients... after all, they can label these things 'All natural' or 'Organic' and get away with charging more.

As for individual fruit, I can't figure out how to tell if it's dyed or not; these oranges were in a big bag, and the bag itself had the 'Color Added' label.

I was thinking last night about how stupid the statement, "people won't buy food without artificial coloring" really is. I mean, if the FDA were to ban all food dye tomorrow, does anyone here really think this would cause Americans to stop buying food? What, would we turn into a pure agricultural society overnight? Or - ha ha - all convert to Breathairianism?

Food is food, folks - and if you had no choice of dyed vs. undyed, you'd buy the undyed food.

Now, what I could conceive of, is a 'black market' springing up of dyed foods smuggled into the country, but since a LOT of other countries are also working on banning food dyes... well, I don't suspect it'd be a Prohibition-level problem, that's for sure.

[Darat]

...snip...

Food is food, folks - and if you had no choice of dyed vs. undyed, you'd buy the undyed food.

....snip...

Yep you would BUT it is the freedom of choice and the fact that people want "orange" oranges that lead the supermarkets (which really control the food growing) to say "give us more orange oranges". They only do this because they find that their consumers will buy more of the orange oranges then they will of less-orange oranges. This is something that us consumers can only blame on ourselves.

And this behaviour is not new - I remember shopping with my grandmother 30 years ago at the local fruit and veg market and she would want the plumpest, reddest looking tomatoes (and perhaps one or two less ripe ones to keep for a few more days).

[LW]

I was thinking last night about how stupid the statement, "people won't buy food without artificial coloring" really is. I mean, if the FDA were to ban all food dye tomorrow, does anyone here really think this would cause Americans to stop buying food?

Of course not. But that is moot since the FDA is not going to do it tomorrow so people who prefer buying dyed products will continue to do so.

My own annoyance is not about dyed food (I don't know whether the food we get here is dyed or not) but it is about potatoes. We have here two basic classes of potatoes on sale: the standard that is available year round and the "new yield" potatoes that we get only in Summer. The new potatoes taste better and you don't have to peel them as it is enough to simply wash them.

Now, some ten years or so ago some bright lad got the idea to sell pre-washed new potatoes. Except that they don't do that. They wash the potaoes with a pressure hose and then they roll them around in peat. The result is that the potato looks much nicer than a standard one that is covered in grey soil but it is actually much more difficult to wash those "pre-washed" potatoes than "unwashed".

For some totally incomprehensible reason people actually prefer to buy those cumbersome "washed" potatoes. It has become difficult to find unspoiled new potatoes. I blame urbanization of the society.

[Z]

Yep you would BUT it is the freedom of choice and the fact that people want "orange" oranges that lead the supermarkets (which really control the food growing) to say "give us more orange oranges". They only do this because they find that their consumers will buy more of the orange oranges then they will of less-orange oranges. This is something that us consumers can only blame on ourselves.

And this behaviour is not new - I remember shopping with my grandmother 30 years ago at the local fruit and veg market and she would want the plumpest, reddest looking tomatoes (and perhaps one or two less ripe ones to keep for a few more days).

That's true - but the right response isn't to fake it with chemicals, but to tamper with the tomato's genetics, of course! :D

At any rate, given the carcinogenic effects of these food dyes, I really don't think the best choice is to use fake colors.

[Z]

Of course not. But that is moot since the FDA is not going to do it tomorrow so people who prefer buying dyed products will continue to do so.

My own annoyance is not about dyed food (I don't know whether the food we get here is dyed or not) but it is about potatoes. We have here two basic classes of potatoes on sale: the standard that is available year round and the "new yield" potatoes that we get only in Summer. The new potatoes taste better and you don't have to peel them as it is enough to simply wash them.

Now, some ten years or so ago some bright lad got the idea to sell pre-washed new potatoes. Except that they don't do that. They wash the potaoes with a pressure hose and then they roll them around in peat. The result is that the potato looks much nicer than a standard one that is covered in grey soil but it is actually much more difficult to wash those "pre-washed" potatoes than "unwashed".

For some totally incomprehensible reason people actually prefer to buy those cumbersome "washed" potatoes. It has become difficult to find unspoiled new potatoes. I blame urbanization of the society.

Egads!

We can get so many varieties of potato, it boggles the mind... from Russett Reds to the little white ones, to 'New' potatos, to pre-washed, to organic (with the soil still on them), etc.etc.etc.

But since I eat the skins anyway, bring it on! :D

I'm starting to get afraid to shop anymore... I checked one of our local 'all-organic' grocers, and be damned if their bell peppers weren't sprayed with artificial blue and yellow food dye!

Screw it - I'll just eat all the food coloring, and then blame that when I go 'postal' and terminate the next person to knock at my door.

**knock knock**

"Have you heard the Good New----AAAAAAGGHHHH!!!!"

[CurtC]

I would like to put in a plug for one red food coloring/dye that is all-natural: Carmine or Cochineal. It's made from squashed pregnant scale insects, and you can't get much more natural than that. :DThat's not very comforting to me. Knowing that natural chemicals can be the most poisonous things on Earth, plus I'd be extra suspicious of a brightly (aposematically (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Aposematic)) colored insect, I'd feel safer with a tested synthetic.

[Z]

According to literature provided by Sensient, a major ingredient in the bitter Italian liquor Campari is an exempt dye called carminic acid. This vibrant magenta additive originates from the dried, crushed bodies of pregnant female scale insects called cochineal [Dactylopius coccus costa (Coccus cacti L.)]. Incas and Mayas used these prickly pear parasites for centuries as a dye source, and they were brought into Western markets by Cortez in the 16th century. Today, most cochineal is harvested from managed cactus plantations in Peru and the Canary Islands and is processed in food-grade facilities.

Dried cochineal contains 17 to 24% carminic acid, an anthraquinone that most of the insect's predators find unpalatable. In modern processing methods, carminic acid is extracted from cochineal using an aqueous, alcoholic solution. It can then be used directly as a dye or precipitated on an aluminum hydroxide substrate to make carmine lake.

From http://pubs.acs.org/cen/whatstuff/stuff/8134foodcoloring.html

:D

[rustypouch]

I know that when I was a kid, red dye really made me crazy. I don't know if it was the mashed bug variety or not, though.

[luchog]

They charge more for a LOT of things that have less ingredients... after all, they can label these things 'All natural' or 'Organic' and get away with charging more.
That is why I generally prefer to buy my fruits and veggies from farmer's markets or co-ops (which is really easy to do in my city, there are multiple within walking distance of my apartment); particularly since a lot of stuff I like isn't available through the mainstream supermarkets. Like blood oranges. Never dyed, and taste much better than naval oranges. Just wish I could still get mikans here like I used to (apparently the variety I used to find aren't being exported anymore). The current satsuma crops are far inferior. Not sure if that's different orchards or different grading on the exports; but they're just not as good.

[Z]

I know what you mean. I need to get out to our local farmer's market more often... except it's downtown, and I despise the idea of busing (bussing?) veggies and fruits home, and I hate downtown parking.

[epepke]

That's not very comforting to me. Knowing that natural chemicals can be the most poisonous things on Earth, plus I'd be extra suspicious of a brightly (aposematically (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Aposematic)) colored insect, I'd feel safer with a tested synthetic.

Cochineal stain makes really good fake blood, though. Mix it with white Karo syrup. It even dries brown, and the syrup provides a good clotting effect.

WRT oranges, my fiancee's parents own a small orange grove, and just looking at the oranges that they get off the tree, I doubt there's much dying going on. Some of them are ugly, but they get used for juice. I did a field trip to the local Publix and rubbed one of their oranges on my T-shirt for a while. No dye or wax that I could tell came off.

[CurtC]

The comments here about red dyes and hyperactivity sound fishy to me. The red dyes banned were banned because they caused cancer in mice. Is there data supporting the link to hyperactivity? The anecdotes of the kind mentioned here are notoriously unreliable.

[epepke]

The comments here about red dyes and hyperactivity sound fishy to me. The red dyes banned were banned because they caused cancer in mice. Is there data supporting the link to hyperactivity? The anecdotes of the kind mentioned here are notoriously unreliable.

Well, it's interesting that the OP mentioned caffeine, which really does help hyperactive people (who have paradoxical reactions to stimulants and depressants), but the rest of the thread has been about red dye, which may be a red herring.

[Art Vandelay]

Relating pain killers to cosmetic food coloring is really a bad analogy, don't you think? Pain killers relieve pain (duh)... so what, exactly, does adding MORE orange color to oranges do?It adds to the experience of eating an orange. It's a difference of degree. Sure, most foods are palatable without any alterations. But what if we were to take it to an extreme? What if we were to go the "Bass-O-Matic" route, and put all our food into a blender? Don't you think you'd have difficulty getting your food down, even though from a practical point of view there's no difference? Why are you complaining about the difficulty of getting different varieties of food for your children? What really matters is whether they're getting the necessary nutrients. Anything else is a matter of cosmetics. How can you criticize other people for wanting their food presented in an appetizing manner, while complaining about the difficulty of getting appetizing food for your children?

I honestly think that if all my food were put in a blender and mixed together, my personal quality of life would be more adversely affected than by not being allowed to use any painkillers.

In fact, there have been studies that show that in some situations, the color of a pill has more an effect on its pain relieving abilities than do its ingredients.

TI was thinking last night about how stupid the statement, "people won't buy food without artificial coloring" really is. I mean, if the FDA were to ban all food dye tomorrow, does anyone here really think this would cause Americans to stop buying food? What, would we turn into a pure agricultural society overnight? Or - ha ha - all convert to Breathairianism?If the FDA were to ban anesthetics, would people stop having operations? Of course not. But it's still a reasonable statement to make that "people won't have operations without anesthetics". Cosmetic alterations to food are hardly a new thing. They're probably older than civilization itself.

It is unfortunate for ZD and his child to need to avoid certain food additive/color. I have always wondered why people are allergic to some substance and frustrated by medical science's seemingly lack of ability to cure the allergy.Bit of a nitpick, but what we are discussing are not allergies but sensitivities.

[Z]

A quick Google search shows a lot about the Feingold Diet, which, aside from food dye and preservatives, suggested removing fruits with lots of salicylates and sugars as well. I think that diet has its problems, but there have been a rare few studies showing links between health issues and food dyes, such as what was done in the study on this page: http://www.chem-tox.com/pregnancy/artificial.htm.

Unfortunately, most supporters of the 'food colors are perfectly safe' camp will refer you to the Food Color Facts pamphlet (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/colorfac.html), which was written not by the FDA, my friends!

'There is considerable evidence that food dyes can worsen the symptoms of ADHD in some children, but government authorities deny the evidence. The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has published a pamphlet called 'Food color facts' which states that "there is no evidence that food color additives cause hyperactivity or learning disabilities in children." The pamphlet, though published by the FDA, was actually written by the International Food Information Council, a trade association representing many makers of food additives including General Mills, Kraft, Procter and Gamble, Pepsi-Cola, Coca Cola, Monsanto (maker of aspartame), and Ajinomoto (maker of monosodium glutamate). To make the statement that there is no evidence that food dyes cause hyperactivity or learning disabilities in children, the FDA had to ignore 16 double-blinded studies that have shown that food dyes do worsen the symptoms of ADHD in some children ...'

- from Rachel's Environment & Health Weekly #678 (with references), Environment Research Foundation, see http://www.rachel.org/

16 double-blind studies isn't much, maybe; but the FACT that the FDA publishes a pamphlet written by an agency that is underwritten by and supports the food industry in general should be considered suspect! What next - Tobacco agencies dictating public smoking policies? Homeopaths writing federal medicinals legislation?

[ysabella]

Taking a look...your first link isn't all that conclusive about dyes. They talk about tests on a single boy...a single boy? Does that matter? And when they say "Previous experiments with food dye and behavior in school age children have focused primarily on one type of color at a time" I get all interested, and then they don't go on at all.

The 1993 FDA pamphlet (url=http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/colorfac.html) (just linking it again, as you had a stray parenthesis in yours) is clearly labeled as being from the IFIC along with the FDA, to be fair. And it's not linked from the main FDA page regarding food colorants (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/col-toc.html) these days. So maybe CSIPI's frowning on that in 1999 made a difference.
Here's the NIH Consensus thing from 1982 (http://consensus.nih.gov/1982/1982DietHyperactivity032html.htm), in case you're interested.

CSIPI talks about more inconclusive tests (http://www.cspinet.org/nah/3_00/diet_behavior.html) circa 2000 - not a lot of new data on this, is there?

It doesn't seem like it helps that many kids, but the cost of testing it on your own kid isn't high. If you can find some oranges that aren't dyed, that is. :boggled:

[El Greco]

The significance of micronutrients and additives is still largely unknown. Many nutrients are beign discovered and examined continuously but we are nowhere near understanding the mechanism of their action or suggesting a daily dose. The same with additives. Some of them have been studied rather extensively (like aspartame) but they are only the minority. The general attitude is that "if it isn't toxic in the short run, then it must be safe". If someone like zaayrdragon wants to reach a practical conclusion on what to avoid and what not, he finds himself amidst cuckoos who suspect everything is a brain control conspiracy, crooks who want to sell coral calcium, industries who support everything is perfectly safe, pseudoskeptics whose only concern is to oppose the doomsayers without always examining the facts and scientists who can't give definite answers yet. The only solution remains personal experimentation, exactly like 30 years ago. Suspicious substances are millions and studies are still few and far between to result in any meaningful guidelines.

[Z]

I think El Greco pretty much summed it up nicely.

As it is, it was our own experimentation that proved to us that one of our six kids reacted badly to all artificial colors, a second reacts to the blues (borderline autism spectrum), a third became hostile after consuming beef of any type, and a fourth strongly dislikes anything vaguely sweet, unless it's a dairy item - and gets lethargic and dull after eating it.

Yep. So that's where we stand - desperately learning what foods are going to poison our kids, while 'industry officials' are desperately trying to get legislation passed so they can spray any coloring they want on anything and not tell anyone what they've done. Trying to let our kids have a fair and reasonable variety of foods without going broke shopping at natural food stores, and being constantly battered by modern American idiots who think food has to be plastic-picture-perfect, or funnier still, that Americans won't buy food if it's not pretty - I find this even funnier, in an America that's whining daily about problems of obesity and poor nutrition. Gee, maybe if our industries weren't constantly trying to get us to buy and consume food even when we weren't hungry, maybe we all wouldn't be such lardbottoms? Hell, maybe if we DID ban artificial colorings, we'd be helping the childhood obesity problem?

[casebro]

What do ALL artificial colors have in common? Why would anyone have reactions to ALL of them....but somebody else to only the blue ones? Seems like this needs some looking in to...

[Z]

What do ALL artificial colors have in common? Why would anyone have reactions to ALL of them....but somebody else to only the blue ones? Seems like this needs some looking in to...

Frankly, IMHO, the agency that recommended we avoid all FD&C and D&C colors, I feel, don't know exactly what those colors are, either. I get the feeling that the key was to avoid certain colors - like yellows, reds, and the Aluminum-lake colors - but not necessarily ALL colors.

It's also possible the agency seems to believe that the seven approved colors are all coal-tar derivatives, when in fact I think only one or two are coal-tar derived.

I DO know (WARNING: ANECDOTE AHEAD) that since we've gone to an almost dye-free diet (he still gets Annatto, Carmine, etc), his behavior has improved, rather drastically. Given that he's been about a year off the food dyes, I'm preparing to introduce dyed foods, one dye at a time, and testing the results. The problem so far is finding dyed and undyed versions of the exact same food, to control for the presence of other ingredients... it's pretty challenging.

[Rockin' Rick]

I've heard a few odds and ends about reactions to food colorings. I heard once that carmel coloring agrivates high blood pressure. Then there's all the flavor enhancers and preservatives.

Maybe they're perfectly safe, maybe not. But why use them at all? I understand the desire for a food maker to have their product last, taste good, and look appealing. But, fruits, cough syrup, cereal, water, vitamin tablets? I just don't get it. I bet kids would be more willing to take their medicine if it didn't look like medicine. This is the same reasoning as all the excesive packaging for certain products. Ever open a new child's toy like a Barbie doll? A box in a box, sealed in plastic, taped shut, with the toy stapled in, wire ties, twine, foam and cardboard spacers...the packaging costs more to make and put together than the toy.

[Z]

I found out today that marshmellows have Blue 1 in them.

Why?

[The Observer]

What I really don't understand is how an allergy can induce altered psychological behavior. Am I the only one wondering about that?

We don't even know how ADD works, other then that there are AT LEAST 2 mechanisms on a molecular-neurologic mechanisms identified (don't ask for a refence, old lecture I had...). Neither of which I can link to allergies of any kind.

And what type of allergy are we talking about anyway? Soulds like type 1 based on hapten recognition. Isn't it more likely to see anaphylaxis rather then altered psychological behavior in that case?

[ZirconBlue]

The problem so far is finding dyed and undyed versions of the exact same food, to control for the presence of other ingredients... it's pretty challenging.

Buy undyed foods and add coloring to them yourself. You could have a different color of mashed potatoes every night. I'm not sure what varieties of off-the-shelf food coloring are available, though. I know you can buy them in several different forms (liquid, paste, "pure" pigment powders, etc.), but I don't know if you would have access to all of the basic colors used in commercial applications.

[Z]

Buy undyed foods and add coloring to them yourself. You could have a different color of mashed potatoes every night. I'm not sure what varieties of off-the-shelf food coloring are available, though. I know you can buy them in several different forms (liquid, paste, "pure" pigment powders, etc.), but I don't know if you would have access to all of the basic colors used in commercial applications.

Actually, that's an excellent idea, Zirc. Thanks!

[Z]

What I really don't understand is how an allergy can induce altered psychological behavior. Am I the only one wondering about that?

Nope - lots of researchers wonder about it, too. And it's not, technically, an allergy... it's a sensitivity.

We don't even know how ADD works, other then that there are AT LEAST 2 mechanisms on a molecular-neurologic mechanisms identified (don't ask for a refence, old lecture I had...). Neither of which I can link to allergies of any kind.

It's worse than that... we don't even know how many different and divergent problems have been lumped unceremoniously together under the ADD banner.

And what type of allergy are we talking about anyway? Soulds like type 1 based on hapten recognition. Isn't it more likely to see anaphylaxis rather then altered psychological behavior in that case?

Sounds like you have a little knowledge in-field, but not with ADD, I gather.

I won't even pretend to understand what I've read and been told so far. Only that some of these chemicals interfere with the proper transmissions of signals in the brain. Think about it like alcohol - lack of judgement, reduced moral restraints, etc. Much the same thing.

As an adult sufferer of ADD, I can tell you, it's very much like a constant buzz. Now, I know some people can function just well on the edge of drunk, but imagine being that way ALL the time, with an additional jolt of caffeine thrown in for good measure, and then add in the frustration of knowing that you're expected to act a certain way, restrain yourself, etc... but just can't do it. Have you ever been witness to the aggressive tantrums of children who have communication delays? Out of sheer frustration, they lash out. For the ADD kid, it's a combination of this frustration added to a sheer sense of disconnect to this world. Something in those dyes plays silly buggers with our neurochemistry, and we're left wiped out. It can be really rough sometimes.

All that being said, nothing excuses some of the outlandish behaviour that parents try to blame on ADD from their kids. Even at my son's worst, we expect him to behave a certain way, and we enforce it. We might explain to someone that his inappropriate behavior is influenced by his problem, but we NEVER excuse his behavior. The problem is, a LOT of parents embraced ADD as a convenient tag to keep from having to discipline their child.

It's not like we want to eliminate red food dye (or any other) because it's FUN - My absolute favorite junk food, Flamin' Hot Cheetos, is heavy in food dye. I crave these tasty little bits of nothin, like you wouldn't believe. But I can't have them anymore. I'd love for my kids to get more than chocolate on Hallowe'en and Yule, but they can't have it. It's sheer hell, and it's made worse every time some company decides sales are down and they have to entice buyers with more colorful products.

[ungoliant]

how does one test for a sensitivity to these substances? just eat them and observe?

[The Observer]

hmmm...

I'm working on a hypersensitivity project right now (new antibody, very interesting, another time maybe...). So aye...

Last year I was working on a project at the Psychopharmacology department. Both as a student, btw. But not without picking up things along the line...

Sensitivity, as a general mechanism would count. I mean, a specific mutation in a receptor might change the affinity of an alien substance significantly. It is possible. That would explain why most people are left unaffected, whilst others (ADD-typed) are severely affected. But this is all theoretical. You see, one has to take in account most people are in fact unaffected...

But I'll dive into it. See what I can find...

[Z]

how does one test for a sensitivity to these substances? just eat them and observe?

That's a rough sketch, yeah. Basically, you have to go off of them long enough to 'clear the system', then introduce them in a controlled fashion and observed changes in behavior. Obviously, it takes several runs to get an accurate picture; otherwise, you might tend to mistakenly assume that a behavioral change is associated with the food when it might just as well have another cause.

[luchog]

Nope - lots of researchers wonder about it, too. And it's not, technically, an allergy... it's a sensitivity.

It's worse than that... we don't even know how many different and divergent problems have been lumped unceremoniously together under the ADD banner.

Well, the simply answer to that is that ADD/ADHD isn't a purely psychological phenomenon like The Observer implied. It's a neurochemical condition, aka physiological, that results in an inability to focus, as well excessive physical restlessness (including involuntary movements in extreme cases).

The problem is that there are a number of simple psychological and behavioural pseudo-problems that get the same diagnosis. It has been something of a fad for a couple of decades for doctors and parents to label any kid that has an inability or unwillingness to "pay attention" during school as "ADD/ADHD" and give them medication that may or may not "cure" them. There's no physiological problem, they're just being normal children, bored and uninterested in school, exacerbated by the complete inability of their instructors to effectively engage their interest and manage their misbehaviour.

[The Observer]

right, so as I can track down for now, one dr. Feingold first came up with the idea to cut down on artificial food colouring agents in hyperactive kids in the 70's. Then, in the 80's this got whole diet thing got a second look and, as it goes, got rejected for lack of proven effectivness. However...

There's a new article from the Danish Bateman (jun 2004, Arch. Dis. Child.) reinstating the idea in a study covering 227 3 year olds. He concluded that there is an effect of food colouring agents, and concluded also there's no role for allergy. He's at a loss for an explaination. I can't find a major problem with his research (though he wrote an erratum I can't open at home). Maybe someone else wants to have a go at him?

That's a rough sketch, yeah. Basically, you have to go off of them long enough to 'clear the system', then introduce them in a controlled fashion and observed changes in behavior. Obviously, it takes several runs to get an accurate picture; otherwise, you might tend to mistakenly assume that a behavioral change is associated with the food when it might just as well have another cause.
zaay, you do understand that this test is not wholely scientific and might be torn apart my skepticists who could compare said effect to that of Placebo?

[doubtmaster]

I agree with Rockin' Rick. Why do we have to pollute our garbage dumps with so much plastic junk from product packaging?

[Z]

zaay, you do understand that this test is not wholely scientific and might be torn apart my skepticists who could compare said effect to that of Placebo?

I took that into account, as well. For a simple home-based test, this protocol works OK... not perfect, but OK. If we were to run him through exactly as the clinic wants to (at the cost of several months of hospital time), it would be double-blind and placebo-controlled, with several experts on hands at all times.

But, hey, what would Children's Hospital know, right? :rolleyes:

[Rockin' Rick]

I agree with Rockin' Rick. Why do we have to pollute our garbage dumps with so much plastic junk from product packaging?

We have plenty of landfill space, but why fill it up as fast as possible?

The point was why bother with the additives? I just don't see the neccessity.

[Art Vandelay]

Buy undyed foods and add coloring to them yourself. You could have a different color of mashed potatoes every night. I'm not sure what varieties of off-the-shelf food coloring are available, though. I know you can buy them in several different forms (liquid, paste, "pure" pigment powders, etc.), but I don't know if you would have access to all of the basic colors used in commercial applications.That completely ignores the psychological effect, which is bound to be significant. Why not just feed the dyes to the kids directly?