Step by Step.

[Roadtoad]

In trying to make some semblance of sense out of the slop that Kurious Kathy and her beau, Christian Dude, continue to post, some things came to mind that bore mention.

I have repeated several times here that Dr. Chuck Swindoll has said that the greatest evidence for the existence of God is a changed life. This needs to be understood at the outset, or none of the rest of this is going to make any sense. I'm going to try and cast a wide net, but I'm hoping that this time, it's going to make some sense.

You have to consider this: At the base of Mount Sinai, when Israel stood and heard God say that he would come down and dwell among his people, if they so chose, the people chose instead to send Moses up to the top of the mountain to receive the Law, the Torah. This echoes the Creation story, where Adam and Eve chose to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, as opposed to the Tree of Life. It's also echoed in Jesus rebuke of the Pharisees, and their adherance to the Law, instead of learning why the Law was there in the first place.

When you deal in Law, you're placing yourself in the position of Judge. This is not just a position of Authority, (note the capitalisation), particularly over your fellow man, but it's also a matter of Income. (If you read the Bible carefully, you realize that most judges made a considerable income from their duties.) At the same time, you need to remember that, as the Psalmist wrote, we are able to say from such a position, "We are as Gods," forgetting that we shall die like men. In other words, when we have the Law, it's not God who has authority, but us.

So, now we have Kurious Kathy and Christian Dude, preaching to us based on the Law. We need to repent! Otherwise, we will go to Hell, and suffer for an eternity. We're suffering NOW, because we don't love Jesus. (See, Fowl, that's why you have cancer...!) But the point is that they are not coming here speaking in a spiritual sense, trying to get people to become kind, loving, honest, courageous, what have you, but rather they are coming here demanding that we bend knees to the Law, that we validate their authority under Law by taking onto ourselves Law, that we become Judges as well.

Considering that throughout the Bible, Israel, and later, the Church, were blasted repeatedly for clinging to Law, when scripture clearly states that God is Spirit, and those who will worship Him will do so in spirit and in truth, our two "friends" actions are both odd, and an affront to what they say they believe. If you are a Christian, at least as I understood from what I read in my Bible, it is not just what you do, but your intent behind it, which shows you for what you are. Jesus is honored not just by right actions, but by right intent. You learn from the Law, but ultimately, you do what's right because it's right and it leads towards Life, not just being right. Righteousness is evidenced by Life, and that more abundantly.

Okay, now that I've got my own sermon out of the way, let me break it down a bit: Life, as it were, is not just respiration, but it covers the quality of that life. While some of us are enduring some real misery, when you look over what some of these folks are accomplishing, what they're doing with their lives, Life itself is a pretty good thing. Fowlsound has his production company, and the love of his life, while you have Terry with the love of his life, and while he claims he's Zeitgeist Impaired, he's doing pretty well. (Dude, we gotta work on that.) I could go on, but I think you get my drift on this.

In other words, we're not dealing in fear around this place, but Truth, as in fact. (We can discuss Truth as a philosophical point later.) Do X, and under the Law, you will live. Do X under Truth, and as far as we can tell, you've got a shot at a good life.

The difference is that Law is absolute, while Truth, or to be more precise, Life, is not. It never has been absolute. Death, on the other hand, is the ultimate absolute. Law, we can control, primarily based on how we choose to enforce it. Life, we have next to no control over, and what control we do have is extremely limited.

What I'm trying to say here is that Life only happens when you choose to let go of that damned chimaera, that lie called "Control." People who have come here preaching, from Billiefan, through 1inChrist, through Kathy and 'Dude, have yet to figure out that you're here on Earth to live, and to help others to do the same. You can't do that if you've got your mitts wrapped around a Bible so tightly it's turning your knuckles white, and you're using it to batter other people into insensitivity. You have to let go once in a while, and open your hands and heart to other people.

And this is the crux of it for me: I look back and I'm reminded that throughout my Christian experience, this is the only sort of person I encountered. Everything from the Pastor who told me I couldn't even be allowed to clean the Church because I was a divorced man, (BUT, they would let me tithe!), to one of our most recent Pastors, a guy who couldn't even be bothered to come see my wife while she was in the hospital, who told everyone, "If you aren't tithing, don't bother praying, because God will not hear a disobedient servant." (Why is it that a lack of tithing or pornography is usually the big deal, while gossip, or obesity, or any number of other sins, are overlooked?) Part of Truth, of Life, is that if you're searching for it, and doing so honestly, you have to be willing to run the risk of discovering that there isn't a God. (And if you're not running that risk, I have to ask if you truly have any faith at all, or if you're even willing to exercise it.)

I simply do not understand God, to put it bluntly. A two year old with Leukemia somehow brings glory to God, while honest inquiry, whether it comes from a scientist or a mutt trucker like me, is a disgrace. See, if the Church is the Body of Christ, how can the body do anything but what the Head decides should be done? If I decide to type a post, my fingers will only do what my head tells them to do. If I decide to flip off that big guy in the beat up pickup with the gun rack in the back, my middle finger will only do what my mind tells it to do, (ditto my feet, which will be trying their best to get my body to beat the sound barrier as the big bruiser starts reaching for his 12 gauge). If these people are truly as spiritual as they claim, if they are as filled with the Holy Spirit as they say they are, they can only do what God tells them to do.

So, what sort of God belittles a man fighting Cancer? What sort of God smears a gay man because of whom he loves? What sort of God spews noxious BS towards a child fighting for his life?

This isn't the God I read about in the Bible. But it's the God I encountered while I was a Christian on a daily basis. It's the God who, through his people, told me that if only I had loved Him enough, maybe my wife wouldn't have gotten sick years ago, or maybe He wouldn't have taken my father. (My dad died from a heart attack, because he was smoking nearly four packs of cigarettes a day. He didn't die because God was pissed off with me.) Add to this the separations within the Church, because of ego, legalism, prejudice, and all I can think is that the Church itself is once more rending the back of Christ, every bit as much as the Romans did as they prepared to crucify Jesus.

This isn't the God I know is supposed to be there. So, if this is the evidence I have for His existence, this legalistic hate, as opposed to an open search for truth, maybe the reality is that he isn't there in the first place.

I continue to search. And many times, it's two steps forward, one back. It would be a great comfort to know that God is there. But if this is the evidence for His presence in our lives, this hateful slop from people like Kurious Kathy and Christian Dude, perhaps I'm better without Him. And that hurts.

But, it's a good hurt. In the long run, it's a good hurt.

[HeyLeroy]

Damn well said, mr. mutt trucker.

[Ducky]

RoadToad, you need to email me and let's get your blog up and running asap.

Someone who writes like you do should not squander that talent.


You. Me. Beer. TAM. Good times.

[HeyLeroy]

Give youself some cred too, FS. You write really well.

[BJQ87]

I don't recall reading a post from either of these people but I'm assuming whatever they said to give you such an uneasyness about them was a result of an uneasyness they have themselves. An uneasyness of others ungodly lifestyles, obligation to witness and uphold what they believe to be truth, etc.

You are uneasy about these people's statements, so you launch a direct attack at these people. Couldn't it be that staying quiet or simply providing these people with considerate counsel be the best course of action? Perhaps this same disrespect you are so much against comes from virtually the same kind of uneasyness. Would this not be hypocritical? Perhaps this direct attack was not intended for offense but for counsel. But I think it's always best to strongly consider the extremes of reasonable offense. I think it's reasonable that kurious kathy or Christian Dude be offended by you, though you may not intend it to be so. If one does not consider the extremes of reasonable offense, then one may communicate things they do not ultimately intend. In light of this I'd like to let you know I mean no offense, and I agree with fowlsound that you do have a great talent for writing.

[Beth]

Roadtoad,

I just want to say that I enjoy your posts. You've shared details of your life and ways you are changing in a very public forum and that's not easy. It's been educational and inspiring to me to read your posts.

After nearly three decades of not belonging to or attending any church, I have recently found a congregation and minister I like. I don't know if I'll join this church, but it's nice to have found one I feel comfortable with. It is a very liberal church, recognizing that much of the bible is myth and not to be taken literally. No belief in miracles is required. Instead, they concentrate on the message that Christ brought. As the minister said last Sunday: "when in doubt, go back to the four words that serve as the very simple root of the Christian message: Love everybody, judge nobody."

I think there are many Christians and Christian churchs out there that fail to live by that message, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a church out there that could add to your life if you want a church in your life.

I thought I would include a few passages from this ministers sermon last week that you might find encouraging:

There are two major weekly publications read by ministers in the Protestant church. One is called Christianity Today, and the other is called Christian Century. These two publications reveal the divide in the church. Christianity Today is geared toward fundamentalists and evangelicals, and Christian Century is geared toward the mainline denominations and more liberal thinking Christians. Each week I read Christian Century cover to cover, and that his how I keep up on what’s going on in the worldwide church. The motto of Christian Century is thinking critically, living faithfully.
......
We do not need to protect God from the truth. The church fought it every step of the way, but we found out the world is not flat, and God is still here. We found out the earth is not the center of the universe, and God is still here. We found out the universe is more than 6000 years old, and God is still here. And as we unlock the mysteries to the way life developed on this planet and the evolutionary process that brought life forth, well, God is still here. When will we learn? Stop pitting our faith against the truth. God will always be waiting for us squarely in the middle of the truth.

You can find his entire sermon and others at http://www.ucchurch.org/

Good luck. If you are dissatisfied with your current church, perhaps it is time for a change and perhaps you can find a religious community that will suit you. As is evidenced by the many religious skeptics in this forum, thinking critically and faith in god are not mutually exclusive.

[Oleron]

"But, as is evidenced by the many religious skeptics in this forum, thinking critically and faith in god are not mutually exclusive."

Is Roadtoad not contradicting this statement somewhat by his post? As I read it he is saying that, although he wants/tries to believe in God, the evidence of his (highly developed) critical thinking faculties are forcing him to consider otherwise.

I sometimes think of the example of a young child who knows virtually nothing of the world and its ways. If that child were to grow up living strictly according to the rules of critical thinking all its life, would he/she be a believer? I don't think so.

Therefore if someone 'picks up religion' somewhere along their life path, they have not obtained it by weighing the physical evidence. They must have obtained it some other way.

It's the 'some other way' bit I have difficulty with. To me, and I could be wrong, there are only 2 ways this could happen.
1. A suspension of critical thinking in the face of overwhelming personal experience. But isn't this the anecdotal evidence that we're always criticising woos about?
2. A genuinely paranormal event.

Maybe there's a third option, a desire to fit in with cultural norms - peer pressure from family/social circle. In which case I would challenge the person that they don't truly believe at all.

[Beth]

"But, as is evidenced by the many religious skeptics in this forum, thinking critically and faith in god are not mutually exclusive."

Is Roadtoad not contradicting this statement somewhat by his post? As I read it he is saying that, although he wants/tries to believe in God, the evidence of his (highly developed) critical thinking faculties are forcing him to consider otherwise.

Certainly he is reconsidering his beliefs. I wanted to point out that while his beliefs may undergo modification, skepticism does not require that he give up his beliefs completely.


I sometimes think of the example of a young child who knows virtually nothing of the world and its ways. If that child were to grow up living strictly according to the rules of critical thinking all its life, would he/she be a believer? I don't think so.

This is not necessarily the case. There do, indeed, exist people raised in atheist families that take up religious beliefs in their adult lives.


Therefore if someone 'picks up religion' somewhere along their life path, they have not obtained it by weighing the physical evidence. They must have obtained it some other way.

It's the 'some other way' bit I have difficulty with. To me, and I could be wrong, there are only 2 ways this could happen.
1. A suspension of critical thinking in the face of overwhelming personal experience. But isn't this the anecdotal evidence that we're always criticising woos about?
2. A genuinely paranormal event.


Anecdotal evidence applies to other people's experiences, not your own. If someone has a personal experience that leads them to a religious belief, that isn't anecdotal evidence for them. If someone develops a religious belief based on someone else's reported experiences, that is belief based on anecdotal evidence.


Maybe there's a third option, a desire to fit in with cultural norms - peer pressure from family/social circle. In which case I would challenge the person that they don't truly believe at all. Depends on what their belief system is. If they are believing in a philosophical position, that can be sincere but is not necessarily based on physical evidence.

[Bri]

It's the 'some other way' bit I have difficulty with. To me, and I could be wrong, there are only 2 ways this could happen.


Aren't these the same sort of things that would lead someone to believe in, say, the existance of intelligent life outside of our solar system despite a marked lack of evidence?

As much as you'd like to think otherwise, nearly everyone holds some beliefs even when definitive evidence is lacking. They are often called "opinions." You seem to have a few yourself.

-Bri

[Dogdoctor]

Every time I read your tittle I get the words in my mind
"Niagara falls"
"Step by step"
"Inch by inch"
From a three stooges episode. :D
I have come to the conclusion that if there is an all powerful all knowing god, then clearly he wants me to be a nonbeliever.

[Roadtoad]

I don't recall reading a post from either of these people but I'm assuming whatever they said to give you such an uneasyness about them was a result of an uneasyness they have themselves. An uneasyness of others ungodly lifestyles, obligation to witness and uphold what they believe to be truth, etc.

You are uneasy about these people's statements, so you launch a direct attack at these people. Couldn't it be that staying quiet or simply providing these people with considerate counsel be the best course of action? Perhaps this same disrespect you are so much against comes from virtually the same kind of uneasyness. Would this not be hypocritical? Perhaps this direct attack was not intended for offense but for counsel. But I think it's always best to strongly consider the extremes of reasonable offense. I think it's reasonable that kurious kathy or Christian Dude be offended by you, though you may not intend it to be so. If one does not consider the extremes of reasonable offense, then one may communicate things they do not ultimately intend. In light of this I'd like to let you know I mean no offense, and I agree with fowlsound that you do have a great talent for writing.

I think you might have missed something, BJQ. No offense, but I was Christian for a very long time, coming to the Church because, oddly enough, comfort and grace were offered at a time when I desperately needed it. During that time, however, my wife was treated as less than human, partly because she was divorced, partly because she was married to a mutt like me. What I experienced in dealing with KK and CD is no different, (though actually, they were somewhat kinder than a lot of the "Christians" Peggy and I wound up dealing with), and the abuse we dealt with at the hands of those who were supposedly acting on God's behalf left me wondering if the Church hadn't just become another tool for those who groove on abuse.

What scares me about these two is that not overly long ago, I would NOT have been offended by what they say, and I would have been oblivious to the damage being done. That's not something to be proud of, ever.

[BJQ87]

I think you might have missed something, BJQ. No offense, but I was Christian for a very long time, coming to the Church because, oddly enough, comfort and grace were offered at a time when I desperately needed it. During that time, however, my wife was treated as less than human, partly because she was divorced, partly because she was married to a mutt like me. What I experienced in dealing with KK and CD is no different, (though actually, they were somewhat kinder than a lot of the "Christians" Peggy and I wound up dealing with), and the abuse we dealt with at the hands of those who were supposedly acting on God's behalf left me wondering if the Church hadn't just become another tool for those who groove on abuse.

What scares me about these two is that not overly long ago, I would NOT have been offended by what they say, and I would have been oblivious to the damage being done. That's not something to be proud of, ever.


Indeed. I'm sort of in the same boat as you but I was the opposite, I guess I was a KK or CD, I was judgemental and spoke from my own impulses. What opened my eyes though was a friend of mine who has been having huge conflicts with her faith almost as a result of others judging her in very harsh ways...there was this, and around the time that I actually started seeking God's truth in a way I had never realised before, I became a whole different person and started seeing things differently...I regret my mistakes a whole lot, and know that even though I didn't intend for anything but the best, my heart wasn't true. But looking back, as a person willing to follow God, if I had the loving counsel of a brother or sister in Christ, I would have changed. Now I've come to realise this anew just now by reflecting upon your previous post, that whenever a fellow follower of Christ speaks out judgementally or in a wrong tone, to provide the wise, and most importantly, loving counsel and correction that we need to be providing as brothers in Christ. Otherwise this damage may be done, and the potential fruit that comes from correction may be wasted.

[Oleron]

This is not necessarily the case. There do, indeed, exist people raised in atheist families that take up religious beliefs in their adult lives.

Beth,

If a 'hypothetical' person was to make perfect critical thinking decisions, based on the evidence available, in every single situation in their lives - they would not be religious. Of course I understand that no-one is perfect and people in real life make decisions based on many other criteria than critical-thinking but it is true to say that logic and reason did not bring them to religion, something else did.

So if logic and reason did not bring you to religion, what does it have to say once you have accepted releigion? My opinion is that, at best, it doesn't support your decision and, at worst, it points the way out of religion.

I would stop short of saying that religion is incompatible with skepticism because I don't want skepticism to be split into 2 camps. Tolerance and a willingness to be shown that you're wrong are hallmarks of skepticism. We're not into schisms based on dogma.

[Oleron]

Aren't these the same sort of things that would lead someone to believe in, say, the existance of intelligent life outside of our solar system despite a marked lack of evidence?

As much as you'd like to think otherwise, nearly everyone holds some beliefs even when definitive evidence is lacking. They are often called "opinions." You seem to have a few yourself.

-Bri

In the absence of evidence, such as the ET scenario you have described, a scientist would only say "I believe it is possible for there to be life on other planets". He would not say, based on reason, "I believe in the existence of life on other planets". One is a reasoned judgement, open to error, the other is a belief - a statement of faith.

An opinion is different from a belief, especially a religious belief. Belief in xianity, for example, by its very nature must be non-negotiable,it is not an opinion. You don't become a xian because you hold an opinion that God exists. If you do, you're just playing a version of Pascal's Wager.

[clarsct]

BJQ87:

KK, primarily, has posted many things that are quite hurtful to folks around here.

There are many well respected Xians on these boards. I could name some, if you wish.

But KK is NOT one of them.

There's a difference.

[Beth]

This is not necessarily the case. There do, indeed, exist people raised in atheist families that take up religious beliefs in their adult lives.

Beth,

If a 'hypothetical' person was to make perfect critical thinking decisions, based on the evidence available, in every single situation in their lives - they would not be religious.

Would this hypothetical person fall in love? Enjoy art? or music? Do you agree that there are aspects of life that are not based on critical thinking?

So if logic and reason did not bring you to religion, what does it have to say once you have accepted releigion?

THere are many different reasons to accept religion. It provides a framework of ethics, a guiding philosophy of how to live one's life, and a community of like-minded friends. I don't think it says the same things about a person that you are implying here.


I would stop short of saying that religion is incompatible with skepticism because I don't want skepticism to be split into 2 camps. Tolerance and a willingness to be shown that you're wrong are hallmarks of skepticism. We're not into schisms based on dogma.

I'm glad to hear that. I agree.

[Bri]

In the absence of evidence, such as the ET scenario you have described, a scientist would only say "I believe it is possible for there to be life on other planets". He would not say, based on reason, "I believe in the existence of life on other planets". One is a reasoned judgement, open to error, the other is a belief - a statement of faith.

Likewise, a scientist must admit that it's possible that God exists. Science deals with the natural and with the falsifiable. By most definitions, God created nature and therefore would be beyond the scope of science.

Perhaps your objection is towards claims to know for certain about the existance of God. Both atheists and theists may claim to know for certain whether or not gods exist. However, this is by far the minority belief for both atheists and theists.

An opinion is different from a belief, especially a religious belief.

An opinion is a type of belief -- one in which the believer admits that their belief isn't proven fact. An "agnostic atheist" admits that they don't know for certain whether or not God exists, yet still holds the belief (opinion) that no gods exists. An "agnostic theist" also admits that they don't know for certain whether or not God exists, yet still holds a belief (opinion) that God exists. If pressed, nearly all atheists and theists will admit that their belief in the existance or non-existance of God is an opinion rather than fact since there is no definitive proof for either opinion.

Let's be clear that the belief that no gods exist is a belief without evidence since the only possible evidence would be proof that the existance of gods is impossible. So, if you're claiming that the only belief one can have rationally is one for which there is a proponderance of evidence, then you are also claiming that the atheist belief that there are no gods is irrational. The only rational viewpoint would be a strictly agnostic view, having no opinion one way or the other about the existance of God. For that matter, in order to be "rational" under that definition, you would have to have no opinions at all about anything which cannot be proven as fact. I don't personally know anyone who holds no opinions about anything.

Belief in xianity, for example, by its very nature must be non-negotiable,it is not an opinion.

Perhaps you're referring to the vast minority of fundamentalist Christians who might believe that they know for a fact that God exists. If you're just talking about "faith" then that word applies to both atheists and theists.

-Bri

[Roboramma]

Would this hypothetical person fall in love? Enjoy art? or music? Do you agree that there are aspects of life that are not based on critical thinking?
I agree with that anyway. And I can certainly see that for some people religion might be the best choise, even if it is false.
But it does differ from those other things on your list as it is a description of the world. Believing that Jesus was the son of God, means believing something about what is or is not real in the world.
You don't fall in love because of an excercise of reason - but you could say something against choising to ignore the fact that your partner is cheating on you, in spite of the evidence that it's happening. Sure, maybe you're happier for it, maybe there are good emotional reasons to fool yourself, but it doesn't change the facts.

Should people be religous? I'm sure there are good reasons for some people to be, just as there are good reasons for some people to ignore the evidence of infidelity.
(In this analogy there is no proof of infidelity, just reason to believe it is happening, but the hypothetical person does nothing to investigate further).


THere are many different reasons to accept religion. It provides a framework of ethics, a guiding philosophy of how to live one's life, and a community of like-minded friends. I don't think it says the same things about a person that you are implying here.

All well and good, but it doesn't make it true. The question isn't "is it reasonable to base actions on emotion alone?" but "is it reasonable to base beleif on emotion alone?"
Maybe it is. But I do think they are different issues.

[Beth]

All well and good, but it doesn't make it true. The question isn't "is it reasonable to base actions on emotion alone?" but "is it reasonable to base beleif on emotion alone?" Maybe it is. But I do think they are different issues.

I'm sorry, but I thought the question was more along the lines of "is it reasonable to base all beliefs (and I agree with Bri that opinions fall under the category of beliefs) on critical thinking alone?" I think, in some cases it is not. Deciding who you will love, what art and music you like best are examples of those cases. IMO, deciding what religion, if any, you will follow is similar. We cannot know with certainty whether or not God exists, so we choose to believe based not on simply the evidence at hand, but also based on our individual judgements regarding what is important and what is not.

Also, I'd like to amend my original statement. It's not that things like falling in love, or tastes in art and music are devoid of critical thinking. Some people devote a great deal of critical thinking to such matters. It's that reaching a conclusion requires making a judgement about the validity and importance of very subjective matters that differ from one individual to the next. Athiests who lump all religions together as if they are equally false and irrational is much like a deaf person lumping all music together, whether it be Bach, Michael Bolton, the Beatles, or Benny Hill.

[cyborg]

Athiests who lump all religions together as if they are equally false and irrational is much like a deaf person lumping all music together, whether it be Bach, Michael Bolton, the Beatles, or Benny Hill.

Why not? All music is basically the same at the end of the day: a collection of pressure waves. It's the subjective human experience that gives it meaning.

[Bri]

Why not? All music is basically the same at the end of the day: a collection of pressure waves. It's the subjective human experience that gives it meaning.

Can you provide differences between belief in the existance of a god or gods and belief that there are no gods that don't come down to subjective human experience? After all, they're basically the same at the end of the day: beliefs without proof. I'm not sure I catch your point here.

-Bri

[Beth]

Can you provide differences between belief in the existance of a god or gods and belief that there are no gods that don't come down to subjective human experience? After all, they're basically the same at the end of the day: beliefs without proof. I'm not sure I catch your point here.

-Bri


As near as I can tell, he's agreeing with us. :)

[Starrman]

Can you provide differences between belief in the existance of a god or gods and belief that there are no gods that don't come down to subjective human experience? After all, they're basically the same at the end of the day: beliefs without proof. I'm not sure I catch your point here.

-Bri

You are confusing a belief that there is no god with a simple lack of belief that there is one. Until some evidence presents itself or is presented that there is a god, the default position is that there is not. I concede that it is possible that god exists, just as it is possible that there is a circus performing on the dark side of the moon right now. My position is that the circus is not there until someone shows me it is, is not a belief - but a lack of one.

If you really believe it is subjective, just give me one example of something that has happened or something that exits where god is required?

[Bri]

You are confusing a belief that there is no god with a simple lack of belief that there is one.

No, I'm not confusing them. I'm familiar with weak vs. strong atheism. Other posters to whom I was responding made comments about theism that also seem to apply to strong atheism. Therefore, in doing so, they essentially lumped strong atheism into the same category that they lumped all religions into. That was my point.


Until some evidence presents itself or is presented that there is a god, the default position is that there is not. I concede that it is possible that god exists, just as it is possible that there is a circus performing on the dark side of the moon right now. My position is that the circus is not there until someone shows me it is, is not a belief - but a lack of one.

A lack of belief is an agnostic position, and if you claim that agnosticism is the only rational position, then the position that there are no gods, that there is no circus on the moon, or that intelligent life exists outside of our solar system are all irrational. In addition, you would not be able to have an opinion on any subject whatsoever since an opinion is, by definition, a belief without proof. If you hold that opinions can be rational, then so might a belief in God be rational.

-Bri

[BJQ87]

BJQ87:

KK, primarily, has posted many things that are quite hurtful to folks around here.

There are many well respected Xians on these boards. I could name some, if you wish.

But KK is NOT one of them.

There's a difference.


Yes I've known this.

You can have this "difference" become an exception to you. But roadtoad is probably a different case as he would probably like to follow Jesus Christ.

[Roadtoad]

I used to, anyway.

[BJQ87]

I used to, anyway.

well I hope you hang in there roadtoad, i am praying for you.

[cyborg]

well I hope you hang in there roadtoad, i am praying for you.

"This is Yahweh. I am not here at the moment but if you leave your name and prayer after the tone I will get back to you as soon as possible. BEEP."

[LawnOven]

Can you provide differences between belief in the existance of a god or gods and belief that there are no gods that don't come down to subjective human experience? After all, they're basically the same at the end of the day: beliefs without proof. I'm not sure I catch your point here.

-Bri

Wait a minute, if you mean to compare believe in god/s with a lack of a belief in god/s then the seperation is called, "the scientific process"...

Lacking belief is probably how most athiests think about god.

If you really mean what you typed then, you are right, but the point is moot because it has no bearing on how the world actually works as can be tested through the process of science.

Also I reject the assertion made earlier by Beth. that athiests are like deaf people. This is very condescending, I might as well compare religious people to the criminally insane. After all how do you know that I'm not napoleon.

So I'm deaf and you are mentally ill; that doesn't get us anywhere except hurt feelings.

[Beth]

Also I reject the assertion made earlier by Beth. that athiests are like deaf people. This is very condescending, I might as well compare religious people to the criminally insane. After all how do you know that I'm not napoleon.

So I'm deaf and you are mentally ill; that doesn't get us anywhere except hurt feelings.

I'm sorry, but I didn't mean to imply all athiests are like that. I said "Athiests who lump all religions together as if they are equally false and irrational". There are atheists that do that. Just as there are athiests who take the position that someone must be delusional to believe in God - i.e. that all religious people are mentally ill. And you're right, it does cause hurt feelings. Thus, I find the comparison rather apt for some of the people posting in this forum who think that the only rational position with respect to God is atheism. Further, I see little difference between taking the position that atheism is the only rational religious belief and fundamentalists of any other stripe who believe that they, and they only, know the Truth about god.

[Bri]

Wait a minute, if you mean to compare believe in god/s with a lack of a belief in god/s then the seperation is called, "the scientific process"...

Lacking belief is probably how most athiests think about god.

I don't know whether or not most atheists consider themselves weak or strong atheists, but I was responding to a poster who didn't make the distinction and instead implied that all belief without proof is irrational. If that is the case, then any opinion is irrational since all opinions are beliefs without proof. Most strong atheists (like theists) hold that it is not irrational to have an opinion about something that cannot be proven. Indeed, nearly all of us express opinions regularly (very few people withold all opinions).

If you really mean what you typed then, you are right, but the point is moot because it has no bearing on how the world actually works as can be tested through the process of science.

Well, of course I meant what I typed. And of course science doesn't deal with the existance of gods for the very reason that they cannot be proven one way or the other. In fact, very little can actually be proven by science, but that doesn't prevent us from having opinions about them. Since many atheists believe that there are no gods just as many theists believe that at least one god exists, if you want to call one view irrational, then you must call both views irrational.


Also I reject the assertion made earlier by Beth. that athiests are like deaf people. This is very condescending, I might as well compare religious people to the criminally insane. After all how do you know that I'm not napoleon.

So I'm deaf and you are mentally ill; that doesn't get us anywhere except hurt feelings.

I don't want to speak for Beth, but I believe that she was responding to a specific poster who lumped all religions into the "irrational" category without considering that he was also lumping atheism into the same category. I'm sorry to say, but the distinction isn't as cut-and-dry as that poster would like to believe.

-Bri

[Roadtoad]

Few delineations are cut and dried, particularly with any system of belief or non-belief. My problem with a lot of this is the desire that people conform to certain parameters before they can be heard, or for that matter, before they're even considered human.

[BJQ87]

Few delineations are cut and dried, particularly with any system of belief or non-belief. My problem with a lot of this is the desire that people conform to certain parameters before they can be heard, or for that matter, before they're even considered human.


Yes, I can understand why you feel this way, I have a problem with it too. But I do not see how you have acted much differently towards KK or CD. All I see is a cycle.

[kurious_kathy]

BJQ87:

KK, primarily, has posted many things that are quite hurtful to folks around here.

There are many well respected Xians on these boards. I could name some, if you wish.

But KK is NOT one of them.

There's a difference.
Let me apologize to people right here and now if I have said things they take as harsh , mean, or judgemental. I just believe Gods word is true. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. I just think it's ashame so many don't believe God. His word is true and I can't stop wanting to share it. I realize many people here did not appreciate that. I'm sorry if I hurt you. This is not and never has been my intent.

Just for the record...I never said FS has cancer because he isn't right with God. I said people go through things that are painful and sometimes we don't understand why life can be so painful? Maybe these are the types of things God uses to show us our need for him! This is what I think could be possible.
Some of the most painful moments in my own life I believe were used for this very reason.

I just wish I did not have to feel so put down on this forum for trying to live and share how I found my faith. http://www.savedbyloveministries.org/

[TobiasTheViking]

I just wish I did not have to feel put down on this forum for trying to live and share how I found my faith. http://www.savedbyloveministries.org/
Sorry, but how would you feel if i tried spreading my faith in satan all the time?

No one is putting your down for trying to live.

[kurious_kathy]

Sorry, but how would you feel if i tried spreading my faith in satan all the time? I would merely tell you God loves you and so do I and I will pray that God would open your eyes to the truth!

[Ducky]

Just for the record...I never said FS has cancer because he isn't right with God. I said people go through things that are painful and sometimes we don't understand why life can be so painful? Maybe these are the types of things God uses to show us our need for him! This is what I think could be possible.
Some of the most painful moments in my own life I believe were used for this very reason.

I just wish I did not have to feel so put down on this forum for trying to live and share how I found my faith. http://www.savedbyloveministries.org/

You are not put down for trying to live. You are put down for your actions in attempting to win converts here and preach the good word to the mean old athiests. You put yourself in this position so you could 1) claim martyrdom and 2) preach as much as possible. Now that you've been called on it, you and your husband are doing quite a bit of backpedalling. Of course, as I'm about to show, it's still the same old crap.

Now. You said above that you didn't say I got cancer because I wasn't right with god. Let me explain what you said.

God uses cancer (or other hardships) to show us our need for him. This insinuates that God has some idea that I need to be shown something. Logically, you only train an employee to do something when they don't understand, so (follow me here) I got cancer so God can train me in the right way to show my need for him.

So I got cancer because I wasn't right with God.

Run along troll.

[Ducky]

I would merely tell you God loves you and so do I and I will pray that God would open your eyes to the truth!



The evidence of your prior actions on this forum do not support that statement.

[BJQ87]

You are not put down for trying to live. You are put down for your actions in attempting to win converts here and preach the good word to the mean old athiests. You put yourself in this position so you could 1) claim martyrdom and 2) preach as much as possible. Now that you've been called on it, you and your husband are doing quite a bit of backpedalling. Of course, as I'm about to show, it's still the same old crap.

Now. You said above that you didn't say I got cancer because I wasn't right with god. Let me explain what you said.

God uses cancer (or other hardships) to show us our need for him. This insinuates that God has some idea that I need to be shown something. Logically, you only train an employee to do something when they don't understand, so (follow me here) I got cancer so God can train me in the right way to show my need for him.

So I got cancer because I wasn't right with God.

Run along troll.


Maybe these are the types of things God uses to show us our need for him! This is what I think could be possible.
Some of the most painful moments in my own life I believe were used for this very reason.


The reasonable response to your post was already given, you must have past it without considering it reasonable...others however choose to do otherwise.

If you're going to accuse her of saying anything offensive accuse her of what she actually was saying and not your misconstrued version, that you MAY have gotten cancer because you weren't right with God. From my view she seemed to be saying that there is hope. That the uneasyness brought into your life is to bring about something greater, being salvation.

In any case, you do need God, whether you see it or not. And Christ is the proclaimation of the acceptable year of the Lord.

[BJQ87]

Sorry, but how would you feel if i tried spreading my faith in satan all the time?


This seems to be a disanalogy.

I wouldn't be mad because you were trying to spread faith in something you thought to be loving. However if you were trying to spread faith in something you thought to be malevolent, I may have a problem with that.

[Christian Dude]

Hello RoadToad. Please allow me to make some comments about what you have said. You must understand that I do respect you and greatly value what you have shared with all of us here that are on the forum. It has been some very risky things to share of very terrible and painful experiences. I admire the courage it takes to let the world know very painful in intimate details of your life. I have not been willing to open up to strangers to the level you have. I am not sure I have the courage to do so myself.

I know you have some serious disagreements with what I have said and find me very judgmental. I would like to leave all the comments we have made back and forth in past posts alone, and try to converse with you, and others here at JREF, on the current topics. I will respond to specific questions asked of me that relate to our conversations from the prior topics if someone wants to still talk about it. If I do not answer, it would only be because I missed the post, and I would answer if someone lets me know I missed a question to me. I only say this because if someone still wants to talk about it with me, I am willing.

RT, I want to comment only to try to reach a better understanding with you. I do not at all want to arque with you. I totally respect your opinion, and only want to try and clairify myself better if at all possible. If I disagree with what you say, I just let you know I disagree with it, and state what I think is right, all in a respectful debate. I don’t think that is an argument when done in that manner. Just people having a discussion. I would really like to try to get back to that with you and fowl if at all possible.

It needs to be understood all my comments will come from my personal perspective based on my best understanding of the Bible and Christianity. I fully acknowledge that many people do not believe as I do. I make my comments in complete respect.

In trying to make some semblance of sense out of the slop that Kurious Kathy and her beau, Christian Dude, continue to post, some things came to mind that bore mention.

I have repeated several times here that Dr. Chuck Swindoll has said that the greatest evidence for the existence of God is a changed life. This needs to be understood at the outset, or none of the rest of this is going to make any sense. I'm going to try and cast a wide net, but I'm hoping that this time, it's going to make some sense.

You have to consider this: At the base of Mount Sinai, when Israel stood and heard God say that he would come down and dwell among his people, if they so chose, the people chose instead to send Moses up to the top of the mountain to receive the Law, the Torah. This echoes the Creation story, where Adam and Eve chose to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, as opposed to the Tree of Life. It's also echoed in Jesus rebuke of the Pharisees, and their adherance to the Law, instead of learning why the Law was there in the first place.

When you deal in Law, you're placing yourself in the position of Judge. This is not just a position of Authority, (note the capitalisation), particularly over your fellow man, but it's also a matter of Income. (If you read the Bible carefully, you realize that most judges made a considerable income from their duties.) At the same time, you need to remember that, as the Psalmist wrote, we are able to say from such a position, "We are as Gods," forgetting that we shall die like men. In other words, when we have the Law, it's not God who has authority, but us.

So, now we have Kurious Kathy and Christian Dude, preaching to us based on the Law. We need to repent! Otherwise, we will go to Hell, and suffer for an eternity. We're suffering NOW, because we don't love Jesus. (See, Fowl, that's why you have cancer...!) But the point is that they are not coming here speaking in a spiritual sense, trying to get people to become kind, loving, honest, courageous, what have you, but rather they are coming here demanding that we bend knees to the Law, that we validate their authority under Law by taking onto ourselves Law, that we become Judges as well.

This is were I would like to make my first comment. I never intended to come here and preach based on the Law. I know the Law, and adhering to it, does not save anyone. It is by grace alone. I do think the Mosaic and Levitical law still have value today and is worth knowing what is in it from this perspective. The Law reveals many things to us that the Lord hates, and although we are not under law, there are negative consequences when we sin, and things mentioned in the Law are still sin today and carry those consequences naturally. The Lord does not have bring those consequences about, they are natural consequences to sin. For example, the Law says murder is wrong, and although we are not under the Law today because of Jesus, murder is still wrong and brings negative consequences to a person who commits it whether they are caught by the police or not. I mention the Law for this reason, because I believe it shows us things Jesus hates, and things that when we do them, hurt us.

Repentance is still taught in the New Testament even after we learn we are saved by grace. The Lord asks us to repent of our sins as an act of faith in him. If we have real faith, we are willing to turn from our sin and go the other direction. That is what repent means, to turn and go the other direction. The Law and teachings in the New Testament help Christians identify what sin they have in their lives. This is only my opinion, no one has to agree with me.

fowl has cancer because something went wrong in his body. I have stated some things about how the Lord might use such a tragic and horrible thing, and many people had a very hard time with what I said. It is just something I believe about the Lord, and how he uses good and bad in our lives. It is only what I believe based on how I understand scripture. I did not mean it in a judgmental way at all. I don’t really even know fowl but by a username on a web forum. But I honestly care about him and pray for him all the time. It would be great, to me, if I could meet him in person. Not to preach to him, not to try and make him feel better, not to change his life by any wonderful thing I could do, only to be nothing more than a friend who cares about him. fowl, if you are reading this, I really mean it, truly.

I did not ever mean to demand anyone believe as I do, or even to demand they bend their knee to Jesus. The Lord himself gives every person the choice to do that if they choose. I have no power or authority over anyone here, and I do not want any.

Considering that throughout the Bible, Israel, and later, the Church, were blasted repeatedly for clinging to Law, when scripture clearly states that God is Spirit, and those who will worship Him will do so in spirit and in truth, our two "friends" actions are both odd, and an affront to what they say they believe. If you are a Christian, at least as I understood from what I read in my Bible, it is not just what you do, but your intent behind it, which shows you for what you are. Jesus is honored not just by right actions, but by right intent. You learn from the Law, but ultimately, you do what's right because it's right and it leads towards Life, not just being right. Righteousness is evidenced by Life, and that more abundantly.

Okay, now that I've got my own sermon out of the way, let me break it down a bit: Life, as it were, is not just respiration, but it covers the quality of that life. While some of us are enduring some real misery, when you look over what some of these folks are accomplishing, what they're doing with their lives, Life itself is a pretty good thing. Fowlsound has his production company, and the love of his life, while you have Terry with the love of his life, and while he claims he's Zeitgeist Impaired, he's doing pretty well. (Dude, we gotta work on that.) I could go on, but I think you get my drift on this.

In other words, we're not dealing in fear around this place, but Truth, as in fact. (We can discuss Truth as a philosophical point later.) Do X, and under the Law, you will live. Do X under Truth, and as far as we can tell, you've got a shot at a good life.

The difference is that Law is absolute, while Truth, or to be more precise, Life, is not. It never has been absolute. Death, on the other hand, is the ultimate absolute. Law, we can control, primarily based on how we choose to enforce it. Life, we have next to no control over, and what control we do have is extremely limited.

What I'm trying to say here is that Life only happens when you choose to let go of that damned chimaera, that lie called "Control." People who have come here preaching, from Billiefan, through 1inChrist, through Kathy and 'Dude, have yet to figure out that you're here on Earth to live, and to help others to do the same. You can't do that if you've got your mitts wrapped around a Bible so tightly it's turning your knuckles white, and you're using it to batter other people into insensitivity. You have to let go once in a while, and open your hands and heart to other people.

RT, I only just disagree with that point of view. I am not hostile to you saying it. I also respect how you see things. I only just disagree. Nothing more than that. If you and I knew each other face to face, I would be calmly saying I think that is wrong, and would not have a problem being around you because you believe that way.

For me, this life is mostly about being the place where we make our choice. Our choice to accept Jesus or reject him. It is my belief that the Lord is not much concerned with our comfort in this life, that he is far more concerned with our charater, and where we will spend eternity. Once we make a choice to put our faith in Jesus, then this life becomes about him changing us to be more like him, and have our priorities become the same as his. His number one priority is to bring his children home to Heaven, so that should also be a Christian’s number one priority. Again, it is only what I believe, no one has to agree.

I don’t see it the same way you do. I see the truth as absolute, not the Law. To me the truth is not life, it brings life. See, I believe that this life on earth is just an instant in the eternity we all will exsist for. I have a great desire to help people live a good life, both here on earth and for eternity in the right place. I do not say this to brag, only to demonstrate that I know what you are talking about when you say we should help people live a good life. I do believe I need to do something about helping people that are struggling here and now. I open my home and my wallet to people in need. I don’t do it to feel good about my self, I do it because it is right to do, and it is my Lord’s will.

And this is the crux of it for me: I look back and I'm reminded that throughout my Christian experience, this is the only sort of person I encountered. Everything from the Pastor who told me I couldn't even be allowed to clean the Church because I was a divorced man, (BUT, they would let me tithe!), to one of our most recent Pastors, a guy who couldn't even be bothered to come see my wife while she was in the hospital, who told everyone, "If you aren't tithing, don't bother praying, because God will not hear a disobedient servant." (Why is it that a lack of tithing or pornography is usually the big deal, while gossip, or obesity, or any number of other sins, are overlooked?) Part of Truth, of Life, is that if you're searching for it, and doing so honestly, you have to be willing to run the risk of discovering that there isn't a God. (And if you're not running that risk, I have to ask if you truly have any faith at all, or if you're even willing to exercise it.)

In the Church I attend, the leadership and most in the congregation would never have treated you or your wife that way. Nothing like what you have shared the pastor said is taught or said in our Church. All that matters is who you are today, not who you were in the past. We have people in leadership positions that have done a lot of not so good things in the past. They are new people in Christ and that is all that matters now. You would be most welcome at our Church.

I simply do not understand God, to put it bluntly. A two year old with Leukemia somehow brings glory to God, while honest inquiry, whether it comes from a scientist or a mutt trucker like me, is a disgrace. See, if the Church is the Body of Christ, how can the body do anything but what the Head decides should be done? If I decide to type a post, my fingers will only do what my head tells them to do. If I decide to flip off that big guy in the beat up pickup with the gun rack in the back, my middle finger will only do what my mind tells it to do, (ditto my feet, which will be trying their best to get my body to beat the sound barrier as the big bruiser starts reaching for his 12 gauge). If these people are truly as spiritual as they claim, if they are as filled with the Holy Spirit as they say they are, they can only do what God tells them to do.

So, what sort of God belittles a man fighting Cancer? What sort of God smears a gay man because of whom he loves? What sort of God spews noxious BS towards a child fighting for his life?

This isn't the God I read about in the Bible. But it's the God I encountered while I was a Christian on a daily basis. It's the God who, through his people, told me that if only I had loved Him enough, maybe my wife wouldn't have gotten sick years ago, or maybe He wouldn't have taken my father. (My dad died from a heart attack, because he was smoking nearly four packs of cigarettes a day. He didn't die because God was pissed off with me.) Add to this the separations within the Church, because of ego, legalism, prejudice, and all I can think is that the Church itself is once more rending the back of Christ, every bit as much as the Romans did as they prepared to crucify Jesus.

This isn't the God I know is supposed to be there. So, if this is the evidence I have for His existence, this legalistic hate, as opposed to an open search for truth, maybe the reality is that he isn't there in the first place.

I continue to search. And many times, it's two steps forward, one back. It would be a great comfort to know that God is there. But if this is the evidence for His presence in our lives, this hateful slop from people like Kurious Kathy and Christian Dude, perhaps I'm better without Him. And that hurts.

But, it's a good hurt. In the long run, it's a good hurt.

RT, I know exactly what you are saying about Christians who say and do that stuff. It makes me very upset and confused that I have been put in that group by you. I hate that as much as you do and some how I messed up and got my self included in that group. I am also very saddened that those things happened to you and your wife and how you were treated. I may not be the best communicator at times, and what I write may come over wrong from the way I intend it. When people talk face to face there is the opportunity to know their demeanor, expressions and emotions. Also when talking in real-time, you have the opportunity to clarify your self if things are not being understood how you actually mean them. RT, please give me the benefit of the doubt that I am being truthful to you when I say I did not mean to be that way. Fowl, I also ask the same from you please.

For my self, the things you mention above, like the little girl with Leukemia, someone with cancer, your dad having a heart attack, things like that. I do, my self, believe that Jesus can use things like those to glorify himself. I don’t exactly understand him completely and how he works everything out, but I believe somehow he can make good come from things like that. To us here on earth, where it seems all there is to life is right here, right now, it does not make sense to us. I believe that within the eternal perspective, he will work it out and we will then understand how he used it to glorify himself and to our good. That is only what I believe, if people do not agree. I am OK with that, I respect their opinions. But I do not think what I believe is hateful or mean. If others think it is, I am honest and sincere in saying that I do not understand. Maybe I am ignorant, I don’t know. But I do not wish anything painful, tragic or abusive in anyone’s life. I reach out to people going through things like that and help in what every way I can. I am truly sorry that in my written communication in my posts here at JREF, to some people, I have come across as just the opposite.

[BJQ87]

nicely said Christian Dude. Your post is an example of extremes of love and respect i'd like to follow.

[Oleron]

ChristianDude,
Whether you realise it or not, you're still in that hole and you're still digging!

"God uses....bad things to bring about good" (paraphrased).

NO NO NO!

I can use bad things to bring about good. So can YOU. So can anyone...except God.

This is because I didn't cause the bad thing to happen, neither did you or anyone else. I don't have the power to reverse the bad thing, neither do you. God does.

If you were God, would you cause Fowl to have cancer and then sit back and watch while he suffers? What sort of sick puppy would that make God?

And don't give me any of that 'mysterious ways' crap.

[cyborg]

I wouldn't be mad because you were trying to spread faith in something you thought to be loving. However if you were trying to spread faith in something you thought to be malevolent, I may have a problem with that.

Yes, but what about having faith in something malevolent?

That is what you seem to have: or at least the bit about a "loving" god is irrelevent because when pressured most Christians will simply state that their god can do whatever he wants and has no obligation whatsoever to be nice - as an apologetic for clearly unloving actions in the OT.

Or something similar along those lines such as bending the so-called absolute morality so it curves back upon itself and redefines what is good and loving.

[TobiasTheViking]

This seems to be a disanalogy.

I wouldn't be mad because you were trying to spread faith in something you thought to be loving. However if you were trying to spread faith in something you thought to be malevolent, I may have a problem with that.
Satan isn't malevolent to the people who follow and worship him, only to the unbelivers.

[Roadtoad]

:hb:

I am, to put it bluntly, speechless.

I will respond later. I do not wish to be either suspended, or banned.

[Ducky]

The reasonable response to your post was already given, you must have past it without considering it reasonable...others however choose to do otherwise.

If you're going to accuse her of saying anything offensive accuse her of what she actually was saying and not your misconstrued version, that you MAY have gotten cancer because you weren't right with God. From my view she seemed to be saying that there is hope. That the uneasyness brought into your life is to bring about something greater, being salvation.

In any case, you do need God, whether you see it or not. And Christ is the proclaimation of the acceptable year of the Lord.


Nothing substantive in that. Are you arguing anything or just being a pest?

Oh and in response to your statement that I need god...


Evidence?


Also, some evidence that my "uneasiness" has anything to do with God would be nice.


Ps. You also just stated that my cancer was from not being right with God. Don't hide behind the word "may." Some evidence of this would be nice too.

[Bri]

In any case, you do need God, whether you see it or not.

You mean your God right?

-Bri

[TobiasTheViking]

You mean your God right?

-Bri
No, the real god, Satan.

[Pauliesonne]

In any case, you do need God, whether you see it or not. And Christ is the proclaimation of the acceptable year of the Lord.[/QUOTE]

Condescending *******!

[BJQ87]

That is what you seem to have: or at least the bit about a "loving" god is irrelevent because when pressured most Christians will simply state that their god can do whatever he wants and has no obligation whatsoever to be nice - as an apologetic for clearly unloving actions in the OT.

Or something similar along those lines such as bending the so-called absolute morality so it curves back upon itself and redefines what is good and loving.

If God is malevolent to you then you must not be considering the blessing of life. Perhaps goodness and love in this respect is not redefined, but simply at a state of being which you cannot see. Which if you did see you would discern worthy of it's origional "definition".

If God creates a life, and then takes it, if we define the taking of this life as evil, aren't we then saying that the creation of life was magnificent and precious? Now, the reason why I don't stop here and say that God is both good and evil, is because I believe in Him, that His will is perfect. And have seen His absolute love demonstrated in Christ.

"Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped. And he said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked shall I return there. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; Blessed be the name of the Lord."

Satan isn't malevolent to the people who follow and worship him, only to the unbelivers.


There are plenty of people who worship Satan and believe Him to be malevolent as He is. Otherwise the people who follow this modern "satanism" are merely following a more attractive form symbolising darkness and depression. Instead of what the bible informs us of, which is where this being came from in the first place. They take the name but not the character.

You mean your God right?


I'm going to have to say yes Bri, and through His son Jesus Christ we are saved. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12



btw, If anyone is angry at Christian Dude, then they are insisting that He conform to certain perameters before even considering him to be human.

[BJQ87]

In any case, you do need God, whether you see it or not. And Christ is the proclaimation of the acceptable year of the Lord.

Condescending *******![/QUOTE]

I am truly sorry then if anyone is offended. However I still see this to be true.

[bluess]

It seems to me that a lot of energy is being spent reconciling the unreconcilable for a lot of folks - regardless of their religion. The same sorts of arguments related to internal contradictions occurs regardless of the religion. I don't think this is a Christian issue, I think this is an issue related to humans creating god(s) in their image, and then having to deal with the fall-out.

But at least most Hindus don't try to convert you. I can do without that from ANY religion's followers.

[BJQ87]

Nothing substantive in that. Are you arguing anything or just being a pest?

Oh and in response to your statement that I need god...


Evidence?


Also, some evidence that my "uneasiness" has anything to do with God would be nice.


Ps. You also just stated that my cancer was from not being right with God. Don't hide behind the word "may." Some evidence of this would be nice too.


Don't hide behind the word "may"?

I'm not hiding behind anything, I'm saying it MAY be the case. I never claimed to know what God is doing in your life.

[LawnOven]

Condescending *******!


I am truly sorry then if anyone is offended. However I still see this to be true.


Haha, it's just buisness huh? Nothing personal? You do realize that is not going to fly around here.

Maybe you are wrong? And what if you are? Is there a chance you're wrong about everything?

[BJQ87]

Haha, it's just buisness huh? Nothing personal?

I never said it wasn't personal. I'm expressing my beliefs is that not personal? However if someone is offended by my belief then I am truly sorry that they have been offended.

[BJQ87]

Maybe you are wrong? And what if you are? Is there a chance you're wrong about everything?


Logically yes, maybe I am wrong. However I believe with all my heart that Christ died for my sins and that God raised Him from the dead.

[Bri]

Maybe you are wrong? And what if you are? Is there a chance you're wrong about everything?

It is quite likely that those who feel the need to judge others are the least certain of their own beliefs. Otherwise, they would simply be content to live their own lives, and to treat those with other viewpoints with the respect they would themselves want to be treated.

Of course, this applies equally to all sides.

-Bri

[Bri]

Logically yes, maybe I am wrong. However I believe with all my heart that Christ died for my sins and that God raised Him from the dead.

Out of curiosity, why do you feel the need for everyone else to believe as you do? Is it strictly "for their own good" (i.e. to protect them from eternal damnation) or what?

-Bri

[LawnOven]

Logically yes, maybe I am wrong. However I believe with all my heart that Christ died for my sins and that God raised Him from the dead.


BUT... what if you're wrong? Why does it matter with what percentage of your heart you believe it?

Or, why do you believe that christ died for your sins will all your heart?

[cyborg]

If God is malevolent to you then you must not be considering the blessing of life.

If your god is loving then you must not be considering the curse of life.

Perhaps goodness and love in this respect is not redefined, but simply at a state of being which you cannot see. Which if you did see you would discern worthy of it's origional "definition".

Translation: imy god is mysterious. Don't try to analyse it.

If God creates a life, and then takes it, if we define the taking of this life as evil, aren't we then saying that the creation of life was magnificent and precious?

No.

Now, the reason why I don't stop here and say that God is both good and evil, is because I believe in Him, that His will is perfect.

So what does it matter to you whether or not you think he's good or bad? You should be content that his will is perfect regardless of whether or not he considers your insignificane at all.

And have seen His absolute love demonstrated in Christ.

How exactly did putting on a bloody spectacle demonstrate anything other than your god has some pretty stupid laws placed on himself if he requires the shedding of blood in order to consider not eternally damning all his creation.

"Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped. And he said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked shall I return there. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; Blessed be the name of the Lord."

Job: the perfect demonstration of why if your god was real no sane person would worship such a petty being who is content to use people as a plaything to prove some bet with Satan.

There are plenty of people who worship Satan and believe Him to be malevolent as He is.

No, there really aren't. These people just like to annoy Christians.

I'm going to have to say yes Bri, and through His son Jesus Christ we are saved. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12

I say no.

Quoting: "I say no." cyborg: 5 seconds ago.

You do realise that statement will carry about as much weight for you as your one does for non-Christians right?

btw, If anyone is angry at Christian Dude, then they are insisting that He conform to certain perameters before even considering him to be human.

Human in the sense he is civilised yes.

[LawnOven]

Out of curiosity, why do you feel the need for everyone else to believe as you do? Is it strictly "for their own good" (i.e. to protect them from eternal damnation) or what?

-Bri


If I am not mistaken there is a comandment in the new testament somewhere which tells christians to go out and spread "the good word"; to make more christians. It's one of the reasons chritianity has been so successful.

[Bri]

I'm going to have to say yes Bri, and through His son Jesus Christ we are saved. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12

So do all Christians qualify as believing in your God, or only those who belong to your particular church?

-Bri

[BJQ87]

Out of curiosity, why do you feel the need for everyone else to believe as you do? Is it strictly "for their own good" (i.e. to protect them from eternal damnation) or what?

-Bri

I wouldn't consider it a need, but you could say it is a desire. And yes, one does not light a lamp so that they can hide it.

BUT... what if you're wrong?

then i'll do my best to live life to the fullest all the same...what if you're wrong?

Or, why do you believe that christ died for your sins will all your heart?


the holy spirit.

[BJQ87]

So do all Christians qualify as believing in your God, or only those who belong to your particular church?

-Bri

even the demons believe God exists. If one "qualifies" for believing in God then it is not that big of a deal. Now someone's eternal adress, thats not for me to be the judge of.

[bluess]

even the demons believe God exists. If one "qualifies" for believing in God then it is not that big of a deal. Now someone's eternal adress, thats not for me to be the judge of.

What demons?

OK, are you saying that belief in any god is acceptable?

[LawnOven]

then i'll do my best to live life to the fullest all the same...what if you're wrong?


the holy spirit.

Wrong about what? I haven't made any claims. Though for the record I will state that, I am in fact a soft athiest.

If you assumed this already are you perhaps refering to "pascal's wager"?

*edit* In regards to the holy spirit, all I can say is: But what if you're ... (I think you get it :) )?

[BJQ87]

OK, are you saying that belief in any god is acceptable?


depends what you mean by acceptable...true? no, acceptable? depends what you mean by acceptable. I don't accept belief in buddah as truth, but I respect that persons beliefs, in a sense.

[Bri]

I wouldn't consider it a need, but you could say it is a desire.

So you're saying that you desire that everyone believe exactly as you do? Why does it matter to you whether others believe as you do since you've admitted yourself that your beliefs could be wrong?

And yes, one does not light a lamp so that they can hide it.

Doesn't one light a lamp so one can see at night? Some people like to sleep at night! What's your point?


then i'll do my best to live life to the fullest all the same...what if you're wrong?

How can living your life to the fullest involve judging other's lives? Rather, wouldn't living your life to the fullest include being tolerant of others and respecting their differences?

-Bri

[Bri]

even the demons believe God exists. If one "qualifies" for believing in God then it is not that big of a deal. Now someone's eternal adress, thats not for me to be the judge of.

Many religions believe in God, but not that God came to earth in the form of Jesus Christ. I assume you also desire for members of those religions to believe as you do. It is also clear that not all Christians hold your views since some don't desire that everyone else be Christian. My question is, are you content with other Christians believing as they wish, or must other Christians also believe as you do?

-Bri

[BJQ87]

Rather, wouldn't living your life to the fullest include being tolerant of others and respecting their differences?


I don't see how i've failed to do this.

Many religions believe in God, but not that God came to earth in the form of Jesus Christ. I assume you wish to also desire for members of those religions to believe as you do. It is also clear that not all Christians hold your views since some don't desire that everyone else be Christian. My question is, are you content with other Christians believing as they wish, or must other Christians also believe as you do?


EDIT: MOST beliefs are not very important to me, I realise that my beliefs such as that you should not baptise babies, you don't need to confess your sins to a priest, etc, are only religious beliefs. I would and do reason with these people and debate belief systems...However, salvation through Christ is not a religious belief by any means, if one accepts what He did for us on the cross and are themselves dead in the flesh and ressurected in the spirit with Christ then this person is saved.

[BJQ87]

So you're saying that you desire that everyone believe exactly as you do?

no, not exactly as i do, I never agreed with the word exactly.

[bluess]

beliefs are not very important to me, I realise that my beliefs such as that you should not baptise babies, you don't need to confess your sins to a priest, etc, are only religious beliefs. I would and do reason with these people and debate belief systems...However, salvation through Christ is not a religious belief by any means, if one accepts what He did for us on the cross and are themselves dead in the flesh and ressurected in the spirit with Christ then this person is saved.

This is what I meant by being acceptable. So, only belief in Christ gets you out of jail (hell, purgatory, damnation, put your flavor here)?

[BJQ87]

This is what I meant by being acceptable. So, only belief in Christ gets you out of jail (hell, purgatory, damnation, put your flavor here)?

Yes, as Jesus says "I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but through me."

not through the church, not through John Quinlan, not through works.

[Bri]

I don't see how i've failed to do this.

I don't know, I guess I consider it intolerant and disrespectful to admit that your beliefs might be wrong, but to desire that everyone else believe them nonetheless.

MOST beliefs are not very important to me

Obviously, beliefs that don't conform to your own beliefs don't seem to be that important to you, but they are very important to others.

However, salvation through Christ is not a religious belief by any means, if one accepts what He did for us on the cross and are themselves dead in the flesh and ressurected in the spirit with Christ then this person is saved.

You'll have to explain further how you don't consider a belief in salvation through Christ to be a religious belief.

-Bri

[Bri]

no, not exactly as i do, I never agreed with the word exactly.

OK, so my question was simply how close does one's beliefs have to be to yours before you would be satisfied? Do all other Christians satisfy your desire, or must they too believe as you do?

-Bri

[BJQ87]

I don't know, I guess I consider it intolerant and disrespectful to admit that your beliefs might be wrong, but that everyone else should believe them nonetheless.


I said logically speaking that they might be wrong, but I do KNOW and believe with all of my heart with absolute certainty that Jesus is savior and Lord and that He died for my sins. Either way, I do not see how this is intolerant or disrespectful to others, to their beliefs yes. But many people don't respect my beliefs either.

Obviously, beliefs that don't conform to your own beliefs don't seem to be that important to you, but they are most important to others.


And I respect that.

You'll have to explain further how you don't consider a believe in salvation through Christ to be a religious belief.


I suppose you could consider salvation through Christ to be a religious belief, (christianity) but no matter what you call yourself in regards to religion, if you do recieve Christ as savior, you are saved.

[BJQ87]

and there are those who call themselves Christians but have not recieved Christ as savior.

[BJQ87]

and besides, recieving christ as savior isn't a belief is it? it's more like a beginning of a relationship.

[bluess]

I suppose you could consider salvation through Christ to be a religious belief, (christianity) but no matter what you call yourself in regards to religion, if you do recieve Christ as savior, you are saved.

Have you always believed that you needed to be saved? And may I ask, is your family Christian? If so, are they the same type as you?

[BJQ87]

sorry, my edit button isn't working, and might as well add up the post count and use that as an excuse. =P

[Bri]

I said logically speaking that they might be wrong, but I do KNOW and believe with all of my heart with absolute certainty that Jesus is savior and Lord and that He died for my sins.

If you could logically be wrong, then you could be wrong. To say that you "KNOW and believe with all of my heart" that your beliefs are correct actually means that you THINK that they are correct but obviously cannot be certain. Undoubtedly, others have equally strong beliefs that oppose yours, but "know and believe with all of their heart" that they are correct too. My question is, doesn't it bother you if others desire that you believe as they do, and look down upon you if you don't?

Either way, I do not see how this is intolerant or disrespectful to others, to their beliefs yes. But many people don't respect my beliefs either.

It seems to bother you if others don't respect your beliefs, yet you admit that you don't respect theirs. Don't you find that attitude the least bit disrespectful?

And I respect that.

Do you? You said above that you don't respect other beliefs.


I suppose you could consider salvation through Christ to be a religious belief, (christianity) but no matter what you call yourself in regards to religion, if you do recieve Christ as savior, you are saved.

If someone "received Christ as savior" wouldn't you consider them a Christian? I would say that a belief in salvation through Christ would certainly qualify as a religious belief. Can one be saved if one doesn't receive Christ as savior, and what would not being saved entail?

and there are those who call themselves Christians but have not recieved Christ as savior.

Completely besides the point. Nonetheless, I suspect that you wouldn't consider them "true" Christians, and you would include them among those you "desire" to believe as you do.

-Bri

[Pauliesonne]

Are you a comedian because nobody could ever live in as much ignorance as you!

[BJQ87]

Have you always believed that you needed to be saved? And may I ask, is your family Christian? If so, are they the same type as you?


yes, I don't really know what they consider themselves denominationally, probably baptist or non-denominational. I don't suppose i've been heavily influenced by my family in regards to my faith though. I've been surprised growing up that my father, being an ordained minister, has never really confronted me about religious issues and beliefs, I've always been the one to start the conversation...mostly you could say i've been influenced by the bible and the churches I've attended. Since we share both those things in common we share some of the same belief systems as well.

[Pauliesonne]

By the way, I'm talking to you BTQ87, ChristianDude and any other moron out there that believes such ******** when science has proved you believe in nothing but fairytales.

[Bri]

By the way, I'm talking to you BTQ87, ChristianDude and any other moron out there that believes such ******** when science has proved you believe in nothing but fairytales.

Pauliesonne, while I understand your frustration, you are resorting to the same tactics that you accuse BTQ87 and others of. Science has never disproven the exitance of God (nor even fairytales), and it would be ignorant to imply otherwise.

-Bri

[BJQ87]

Bri, you seem to be putting words in my mouth.

My question is, doesn't it bother you if others desire that you believe as they do, and look down upon you if you don't?


yes, i don't see how i've ever looked down upon someone for not believing as I do...pitied them yes, but looked down upon them? Who am I to look down upon anyone?


I said logically speaking that they might be wrong, but I do KNOW and believe with all of my heart with absolute certainty that Jesus is savior and Lord and that He died for my sins. Either way, I do not see how THIS is intolerant or disrespectful to others, to their beliefs yes. But many people don't respect my beliefs either.


I never said I don't respect other people's beliefs, I said that my belief may seem to them to be disrespectful to their belief...it's like me believing abortion is wrong is disrespectful towards someone's belief that a womans right to choose.

[LawnOven]

So BJQ87, pascal's wager then?

*edit*

I'm not trying to be snide; you just didn't answer my question and now I feel ignored :(

[BJQ87]

in a womans right to choose*

[Pauliesonne]

You don't mean the god that christians rant on apon, right?

[BJQ87]

So BJQ87, pascal's wager then?

*edit*

I'm not trying to be snide; you just didn't answer my question and now I feel ignored


oh...sorry i have a lot of people to respond to all at once and i guess i missed your question...also when i'm responding to so many things i tend to have a hard time saying what i want to say clearly, so this may explain why i think bri may have gotten the wrong conception of what i was saying in one of my previous posts...what was your question again?

[LawnOven]

oh...sorry i have a lot of people to respond to all at once and i guess i missed your question...also when i'm responding to so many things i tend to have a hard time saying what i want to say clearly, so this may explain why i think bri may have gotten the wrong conception of what i was saying in one of my previous posts...what was your question again?


That's ok, I understand...

my question relates to post "#67"

when you asked me "what if you are wrong ?"

[BJQ87]

oh, no i wasn't referring to pascals wager...not intentionally anyways. When I wrote that I was actually thinking of the song "what if" by nicole nordeman.

[HerNibs]

BJQ87, KK and CD,

Three questions -

If I accept Jesus, god, whatever into my life, heart, whatever, my life will be better?

Please answer yes or no.

AND - How would it be better?

AND - What would I gain?

Thanks

[BJQ87]

Three questions -

If I accept Jesus, god, whatever into my life, heart, whatever, my life will be better?

Please answer yes or no.

AND - How would it be better?

AND - What would I gain?


You will know the truth and the truth will set you free. Don't feel like being set free? Ok then, just know there's always open arms waiting for you.

[Ducky]

You will know the truth and the truth will set you free. Don't feel like being set free? Ok then, just know there's always open arms waiting for you.



What a wonderfully evasive answer.

I'll go back to my unfilfilled, God-inflicted cancer ridden hellbent existence, thanks.


ETA:
Lesse if I can name the logical fallacies there:

1) appeal to authority
2) appeal to guilt
3) false dichotomy

Did I miss anything?

[HerNibs]

Thank you but that isn't what I asked.

Please answer what I asked.

Thanks

[BJQ87]

AND - How would it be better?

you will know the truth.

What would I gain?

the truth will set you free.

I did not give you any specifics because I do not know you at all.

[Ducky]

you will know the truth.



the truth will set you free.

I did not give you any specifics because I do not know you at all.



Still evasive.

[bluess]

I'm so reminded of the Werner Earhardt (sp?) EST trainings.... If you don't get 'IT', you didn't GET it.

BJQ87 - what specifically changed for you when you 'GOT' Christ? Help me understand.

[HerNibs]

Ok, so you do not know me. Does the change the outcome?

Will my life be better if I accept jesus (god) into my life?

Just answer this one. It shouldn't depend on how well anyone knows me.

[BJQ87]

I'll go back to my unfilfilled, God-inflicted cancer ridden hellbent existence, thanks.


i certainly hope no one said that you're life is hellbent.

[Ducky]

i certainly hope no one said that you're life is hellbent.


Please reread KK's posts.

I am going to go to hell according to her.


Here's a link to my post summarizing how often we've been told we're going to hell:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1339036#post1339036

[BJQ87]

Will my life be better if I accept jesus (god) into my life?


well yes, of course, i thought being set free would obviously mean a better life.

[bluess]

But you're not being set free - you're indenturing yourself to a set of rules.

[Ducky]

well yes, of course, i thought being set free would obviously mean a better life.


Evasive again.


Ok, specifically what will I be set free from, and how was it chaining my existence beforehand?

[HerNibs]

Ok. That is a yes.

What would I be free from?

Again, I am not sure how not knowing me would change the answer. You can assume that I am an average, middle aged, american woman.

[Pauliesonne]

It just goes to show;

" if you ask a stupid person a stupid question that person is going to give you a stupid answer "

[BJQ87]

what specifically changed for you when you 'GOT' Christ? Help me understand.


I was free of the chains of addiction that I hadn't been able to break on my own for about 5 years...I wasn't going crazy anymore I found some clarity and peace...I was suddenly able to have a good relationship with my step dad who I had been kicked out of my moms house by, was able to have a good relationship with my little sister as well, whom I had emotionally abused for quite some time...I have a new found work ethic in replace of my extreme laziness...I had hated my life and sincerely wanted to die...frankly I have become a whole new person on the inside.

[BJQ87]

It just goes to show;

" if you ask a stupid person a stupid question that person is going to give you a stupid answer "

I'd rather be stupid than as inconsiderate as you.

[TobiasTheViking]

I'd rather be stupid than as inconsiderate as you.
Agreed, he was inconsiderate.. but so are you...

Don't think you can take the moral high ground here.

[bluess]

I was free of the chains of addiction that I hadn't been able to break on my own for about 5 years...I wasn't going crazy anymore I found some clarity and peace...I was suddenly able to have a good relationship with my step dad who I had been kicked out of my moms house by, was able to have a good relationship with my little sister as well, whom I had emotionally abused for quite some time...I have a new found work ethic in replace of my extreme laziness...I had hated my life and sincerely wanted to die...frankly I have become a whole new person on the inside.

Well, I'm glad you found a way.

However, I've never had an addiction, never been abused or abusive, work two jobs, have a grand marriage, loving family and friends....

I'm pretty sure that no god/goddess is going to address my few problems (love food, hate putting things away, can't pass a bookstore without buying (see sig line)).

So .... why do I need saving again?

[Pauliesonne]

I was free of the chains of addiction that I hadn't been able to break on my own for about 5 years...I wasn't going crazy anymore I found some clarity and peace...I was suddenly able to have a good relationship with my step dad who I had been kicked out of my moms house by, was able to have a good relationship with my little sister as well, whom I had emotionally abused for quite some time...I have a new found work ethic in replace of my extreme laziness...I had hated my life and sincerely wanted to die...frankly I have become a whole new person on the inside.

Alcoholics Anonymous?

[Ducky]

Well, I'm glad you found a way.

However, I've never had an addiction, never been abused or abusive, work two jobs, have a grand marriage, loving family and friends....

I'm pretty sure that no god/goddess is going to address my few problems (loves food, hates putting things away, can't pass a bookstore without buying (see sig line)) I have.

So .... why do I need saving again?


I also have two careers, a loving family and fiancee and good friends. What can I say, there's the big one God does according to KK:

So obviously, you will get cancer as a test of your faith if you don't, as I did. :rolleyes:

[BJQ87]

What would I be free from?

Death.

[Ducky]

Death.



That's a big statement.

Evidence?

[TobiasTheViking]

Death.
So you won't die? hmm.. i'm dubious of that claim.

[HerNibs]

Have to agree with Bluess.

Me - no addictions (purses), good husband, good kids, all healthy.
Me - healthy, tend to make excuses about exercise.
Me - finacially secure, good job.

Not a perfect life, not an unwanted burden either.

What am I being saved from?

[Pauliesonne]

Just like the hulkster, you will be IMMORTAL!!!

[BJQ87]

Agreed, he was inconsiderate.. but so are you...

and if i ever was I have apologised. I'm sorry if i've offended you. I daresay though I still do not see where your getting this from that I'm incosiderate.

[HerNibs]

Is that the answer? I'm being freed from death?

Please explain that. I can't die if I give my self to jesus?

[Ducky]

Is that the answer? I'm being freed from death?

Please explain that. I can't die if I give my self to jesus?


You won't get cancer either :rolleyes:





(And seriously hope no one does, my point was that cancer, according to KK and BJQ87, is a tool God uses to test faith apparently.)

[BJQ87]

Have to agree with Bluess.

Me - no addictions (purses), good husband, good kids, all healthy.
Me - healthy, tend to make excuses about exercise.
Me - finacially secure, good job.

Not a perfect life, not an unwanted burden either.

What am I being saved from?

this is why i've previously stated, Don't feel like being set free? Ok then, just know there's always open arms waiting for you.

[TobiasTheViking]

and if i ever was I have apologised. I'm sorry if i've offended you. I daresay though I still do not see where your getting this from that I'm incosiderate.
You haven't specificly been inconsiderate to me, but i've seen you been it to other posters.

It still counts a lot in your favour that you said that :)


Don't feel like being set free? Ok then, just know there's always open arms waiting for you.

It is stuff like that i find, if not inconsiderate, then offending.

And yes, even if it isn't mounted at me, i think i can feel insulted on others behalf(satan knows, i feel embarased on others behalf)

[bluess]

BJQ87:

Sorry, I don't accept the premise. I will not jump up and down for a theory promulgated by a bunch of nomadic goatherds to explain why their tribe was better than the others.

If I felt the need, why this theory? Why not those of any other religion?

[Pauliesonne]

Why not those of any other religion?[/QUOTE]

Because he dosen't want you to.

[HerNibs]

Fowlsound - I certainly hope not but I haven't seen a guarantee yet either.



BJQ87 - That statement still implies that I am not free. How am I not free?

(Please use the previously stated assumption, woman, middle aged, us.)

[HerNibs]

Please don't make me say middle aged again.

[Ducky]

this is why i've previously stated,


Again, appeal to authority, a blatant attempt at guilt and a false dichotomy.

[LawnOven]

BJQ87, you are being passive agressive in the name of the lord!

All this "No, no you don't have to believe Jesus is you savior but you'd be better off if you did" is no better than "Believe in Jesus or else you are going to hell".

So what was your point about me being wrong, when I made no assumptions and only asked questions?

You didn't answer my question.

Seriously, what if I'm wrong?

I do not believe in Jesus, nor do I have any plans to; what would happen to my soul if I were to say, die right now?

Where would I go?

Further believing in christ does not prevent death; even jesus died!

If you mean death of the soul; please tell me where in the bible you are getting that from, because as far as I know souls do not die regardless. Jesus makes it pretty clear where the souls of people who don't beleive in him go.

And if you believe the words of christ, as they are in the bible; then you have to understand why preachering your gospel is patently offensive to anyone who chooses another God, or none at all.

And if you can't understand why it is offensive to tell people "believe what I believe, even though I might be wrong, because in the long run you'll be better off, because god is great and... plus you'll understand if you just believe" then, I don't know what to say except: It would be in your best intrest as an apperently compassionate person to try to figure it out.

Sorry I don't want to put words in your mouth; please correct me where I'm wrong but make sure you answer the questions while you do it.

[BJQ87]

Again, appeal to authority, a blatant attempt at guilt and a false dichotomy.


I said that because that's what i previously stated and i thought instead of repeating myself i'd quote myself instead.

Don't feel like being set free? Ok then, just know there's always open arms waiting for you.


It is stuff like that i find, if not inconsiderate, then offending.


I don't see how this would be offending though...I don't want to offend people at all, so I'd take this statement back if I knew it was going to offend someone, my intentions for this statement was actually to be considerate though.

I've been on JREF for about 4 months and not until today have i really seemed to offend anyone much...I defended one statement KK made because i thought someone was misinterpreting it...and then someone is all over me for it and starts questioning me...so I answer the questions according to my belief in the most considerate manner i could, if they hadn't asked me I wouldn't have answered because I knew people on this board were likely to get offended by it and one thing would lead to another...this is why i've pretty much kept away from expressing my beliefs so much on this forum, because it is a pretty biased one wouldn't you agree?...sometimes I answer someone's question and I feel I should answer truthfully what I believe...then next thing you know someone thinks i'm out to convert people...i wouldn't mind this conversion happening but this isn't my reason for being on this forum, i'm mainly here for educational purposes and to get a different point of view on things (which i greatly appreciate from you all).

[Ducky]

this is why i've pretty much kept away from expressing my beliefs so much on this forum, because it is a pretty biased one wouldn't you agree?...


No I wouldn't.

There are many Christians on this forum who intelligently discuss their beliefs.

You have yet to answer a direct question, and indeed have been passive aggressive.

My pointing out your statement is 3 logical fallacies is not an attack on you unless you percieve it that way, in which case that's your problem. You still haven't addressed those logical fallacies.

[BJQ87]

just to clear something up, when I said death I meant death of the soul..."that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"...death of the flesh is technically death, but I don't consider it to be my death as a person.

I'd hang around the forum longer but i've been on here for hours and i need to go do some things. peace out yo.

[Bri]

Bri, you seem to be putting words in my mouth.

I've only asked questions, so I don't see how I might have put words in your mouth. It is possible that I've misunderstood something you've said though.


yes, i don't see how i've ever looked down upon someone for not believing as I do...pitied them yes, but looked down upon them? Who am I to look down upon anyone?

How do you feel when someone says that they pity you for your beliefs? When someone claims to pity someone for their beliefs, it is generally considered disrespectful. Even if you do pity them, it is at best impolite to make them feel badly by telling them that you pity them (people tend to feel belittled when others pity them). You don't go up to homeless people on the street and tell them that you pity them, do you?

I never said I don't respect other people's beliefs, I said that my belief may seem to them to be disrespectful to their belief...

So when you said "I do not see how THIS is intolerant or disrespectful to others, to their beliefs yes" you really meant that your belief may seem to them to be disrespectful, not that you are actually being intolerant or disrespectful of their beliefs? What might you be doing that would give someone the false impression that you're being disrespectful?

it's like me believing abortion is wrong is disrespectful towards someone's belief that a womans right to choose.

A belief that abortion is wrong isn't by itself disrespectful towards an opposing belief. One can certainly have a discussion as to why you believe what you believe without being disrespectful. Saying that you pity someone for having an opposing belief generally wouldn't be part of that discussion though, if your intent is to be respectful.

-Bri

[BJQ87]

No I wouldn't.

There are many Christians on this forum who intelligently discuss their beliefs.

You have yet to answer a direct question, and indeed have been passive aggressive.

My pointing out your statement is 3 logical fallacies is not an attack on you unless you percieve it that way, in which case that's your problem. You still haven't addressed those logical fallacies.


i've had a lot of people to respond to today fowlsound, i'm not near as fast of a responder as you either....the only reason why I've been on here all day is because I felt it was important to answer people's questions...however I've got loads of homework to do and have to go get some job applications to fill out before all the stores close as well.

[Ducky]

the only reason why I've been on here all day is because I felt it was important to answer people's questions...however I've got loads of homework to do and have to go get some job applications to fill out before all the stores close as well.


Good luck with the job hunting.

That said: Actually answering the questions would have been nice for all the time spent here.

See you tomorrow.

[BJQ87]

How do you feel when someone says that they pity you for your beliefs?

good point, I don't tell people I pity them though unless someone is questioning me and i feel the need to say this is how i feel...I'd go back and read your questions and my responses and then respond to these questions but i don't have the time at the moment.

[cyborg]

We would gain truth from sharing your fantasy characters?

Yeah, Mintrue truth perhaps.

[Roadtoad]

Well, I was going to post a reply to what's been posted, but with everyone beating me to the punch, (and doing far better than I could have), maybe I should take a different tack:

Let's start with something basic, BJQ, Kathy, and CD: You don't listen. You don't read the posts here, you cherry pick what you want from what you see. It's just enough to get by, you think, to pacify the anger which you (yes, YOU) have generated. And the truth is, you're only making people angrier, particularly, as has been stated, because we have many friends here who are believers in Christ, and who intelligently share their faith. They do so with courage, they do so with compassion.

To suggest that God decided to lay a smackdown on someone with cancer to draw them closer to Him is an affront. It is abusive, and it is cruel. If you have ever had the experience of dealing with a cancer patient, someone who is suffering incredible pain from the effects of this disease, then your statements become even more brutal. How in the f*** can you say what you've said and look at yourself in the mirror in the morning? Or do you even bother? Or maybe you're so inured to the pain your words cause, you just continue on without pause. Think about what you've said, and realize just how vicious your words are.

God using cancer to force people to come to Him? What the hell is up with THAT? Did God use leukemia to punish my friend Dona, whose grandson (yes, Enan is a BOY! That's how I know you don't read what's been posted! That's how I know you don't LISTEN!) is in misery with this disease? Because Dona got sick of being abused by the Pastor of her last church? Because she got sick of going home in tears because the Pastor was such a neanderthal? Who battered her emotionally because she got tired of being emotionally battered by her now ex-husband? Does this make any sense at all? Or are you going to sit there and drag out that trite claim that God is working in mysterious ways?

I left this behind. I left it behind for good reason. I refuse to abuse the people I care about. I'm not doing this anymore. It makes more sense to support cancer research than it does to tithe money to people who are beating others with a spiritual club simply to enforce the subculture of guilt and superstition.

For once, act like adults. Own up to your mistakes, accept you could be wrong, and quit trying to continue rend peoples' hearts because you claim Jesus told you to do it. And for God's sake, quit embarassing the real Christians who post here, those who love God, and whose hearts are set on comforting those who grieve and suffer, instead of heaping more abuse on them.

[Christian Dude]

RT, thank you for reading what I posted the other day. I do want you to know I read all the posts now in a thread that I am going to post into as well. I didn't do the best job of doing that in the past, but I see how critical it is to do that now in light of all that has happend.

RT and fowl, I wish all the best to you and yours, and look forward to reading more of what you both have to say.

-dude

[BJQ87]

To suggest that God decided to lay a smackdown on someone with cancer to draw them closer to Him is an affront.

I agree...But I only defended one of KK's statements, said she said this was a possibility, and is it not? Now I actually don't agree that God himself could do this, but I do believe that God may allow evil spirits to do these things. Now to go out and say that to some person with cancer I don't even really know, I do not wish to do at all, however, It has already been said and when someone asked me if I agreed with this that I believed it was a possibility I said yes, that I thought it was a possibility...So for this, I now complete the three stooges for you all to ridicule and laugh at...yet I was in no way defending that KK said this, however I was defending her statement in regards to a technicality, that someone had misconstrued her words and made it look like she had said this was a fact that God allowed this to happen.

And the truth is, you're only making people angrier, particularly, as has been stated, because we have many friends here who are believers in Christ, and who intelligently share their faith. They do so with courage, they do so with compassion.


Hmm, maybe I should apologise yet again for offending you? I'm sorry If I've offended you. Yet may i add that i still fail to see why? I would like to know so that I would be able to reason this out with you and change my wrong-doings (if they are in fact wrong) like adults would, instead of me simply being required to own up to my mistakes when i don't even know what they are...an actual quotation would be more convenient...CD has appoligised as well, idk if KK has appologised I haven't read much any of her posts but she does seem to wish to do so, as she has expressed to me in a private message I sent her conscerning this issue since I do care about it. And she has learned from this I'm sure.

[TobiasTheViking]

Hmm, maybe I should apologise yet again for offending you? I'm sorry If I've offended you. Yet may i add that i still fail to see why? I would like to know so that I would be able to reason this out with you and change my wrong-doings (if they are in fact wrong) like adults would, instead of me simply being required to own up to my mistakes when i don't even know what they are...an actual quotation would be more convenient...CD has appoligised as well, idk if KK has appologised I haven't read much any of her posts but she does seem to wish to do so, as she has expressed to me in a private message I sent her conscerning this issue since I do care about it. And she has learned from this I'm sure.
The problem with her appologies(and a few of your, but not all) are that they go something like this.

"i am sorry for offending you.. <demeaning>but i just want you to see the light of god</demeaning>" It insinuates that she is a better person than the one she is talking to, for no other reason than she believes in god.

So, she appologize, then turn right around and does the same thing again.

You have done that a few times, but not consistently(which she has).

And i must give you kudos for trying to stop it, because it appears you are :)

[BJQ87]

You will know the truth and the truth will set you free. Don't feel like being set free? Ok then, just know there's always open arms waiting for you.

If I felt the need, why this theory? Why not those of any other religion?


In the former statement I was basically saying that if you don't want to accept Christ as truth then thats perfectly fine with me, but if you do ever feel the need to find truth, for whatever reason it may be, then "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come into him and dine with him, and he with Me." Revelation 3:20

[Ducky]

RT, thank you for reading what I posted the other day. I do want you to know I read all the posts now in a thread that I am going to post into as well. I didn't do the best job of doing that in the past, but I see how critical it is to do that now in light of all that has happend.

RT and fowl, I wish all the best to you and yours, and look forward to reading more of what you both have to say.

-dude


Hey great.

Tell your wife that too. She's having some problems answering direct questions in a few threads now.

[BJQ87]

So, she appologize, then turn right around and does the same thing again.


I'm going to have to agree with you there tobias...overcoming one's second nature is a learning process though, and since it seems she does not wish to offend anyone I then presume she'll come to more of an actualization about it sooner or later. Though I agree that she requires correction, I disagree that she should be ridiculed in such a manner as has been demonstrated.

[TobiasTheViking]

I disagree that she should be ridiculed in such a manner as has been demonstrated.
If she hadn't been doing this for month, while people have begging of her to stop, then i would agree.

Currently, i think she have gone to far, and i don't really care anymore, seh have been given a LOT of chances...